Accident Video

[speedrestriction]

Being a simple fixed-wing type, just wondering what is likely to be the problem here. The aircraft seems to be under control.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e87_1199375265

Sorry if already posted.

sr

[fkelly]

"under control"....maybe not, if under control means making the aircraft do what you intend..:suspect:

Interesting that the initial response doesn't seem to involve anyone with an extinguisher or any other form of contingency resource.

[206Fan]

Wow never seen that one actually.. Looks like a AW119 if im correct??

[Aser]

First time I see it, could it be a Koala?? :sad:

[rotordude]

Yes it looks like a Koala.

Pilot has a high rate of descent on that approach and might have ended up in a Vortex Ring State. Hard to make out from the video where the wind is coming from.

[Dupsspud]

Yes but he also has a reasonable forward air speed until quite late, can't see the wind direction or strength though. Lets hope he/she and its occupants came out unscathed.

[Fred Bound]

Looking at the trees in the first ten seconds or so, it looks pretty calm.

It looks like vortex ring to me.

The pilot's attempts to get the nose up are pretty half-hearted and if he'd identified it and accepted it at an early stage and got the nose down and the speed on he'd have got away with a go-around.

He's not the first and he won't be the last........


Fred

[Aser]

I don't like the vortex ring option, something is wrong here...
I can't imagine the Koala being unable to stop that descent... :rolleyes:

[Ned-Air2Air]

Looks like one of the Air Rescue Koalas based out of Boise, Idaho.

[ron-powell]

Seems I remember an EMS flight program in Utah with a new Koala.

And if I also remember correctly it was a fuel control problem with the Pratt. The pilot pulled at the bottom and the engine failed to spool up.

[rotordude]

From a flare to an instant power demand. Does the Koala have an Anticipator?

[ron-powell]

A little more info:

NTSB Accident report (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=DEN05FA103&rpt=fa)

FAA accident report: DEN02LA010

This report points to a mis-rigged throttle instead of the fuel control issue I first mentioned.

[Arm out the window]

The tops of the pine trees seem to show a couple of knots downwind, maybe setting up a good vortex ring situation with that approach speed and ROD.

[Aser]

something is wrong here...

This report points to a mis-rigged throttle instead of the fuel control issue I first mentioned.

We are too fast sometimes to blame on vortex ring-lte-whateverstrangething

Helicopters DO fail.

[The Nr Fairy]

Are the accident in the video and the accident in the report one and the same ?

The report mentions an HLS/LZ in mountains, and the lat/long given are indeed nowhere near buildings - the video looks more like a hospital.

[OverTq]

ROD didn't seem to be too high in the final stages. Looks more as though he misjudged the approach, flared to reduce excess forward speed too low and hit the tail rotor.

[rotornut]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e87_1199375265

[TwinHueyMan]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=DEN02LA010&rpt=fa

Utah and mis rigged throttles it is. Pilot seemed to do a good job considering he had an auto on his hands during a steep approach after beginning the descent. Got it down pretty level, on the LZ, and everyone walked away with only minors.

Mike

[Quick Release]

yea all was going well until he slammed the tail into the ground.
Legend of coarse. They always are.

[TOMMY1954]

Please could someone tell me witch report correlates with the accident video, NTSB-DENO5FA103, REG.N403CF, DATE 30/06/2005 or NTSB-DENO2LA010, REG.N119RX, DATE 11/09/2001 ?

Thank you

[Agaricus bisporus]

Why always assume some vanishingly unlikely technical reason?

How about way too fast, way too much ROD, way too much hurry?

I reckon he just misjudged it - look at the last second snatch at the cyclic - and didn't spot it until the last moments. Maybe he was a little downwind, but it still looks just like a big, simple human cock-up.

[AirWon]

I agree 100%. Too fast, too steep, relatively high DA. Pilot error. Similar thread on JH.

[TheMonk]

AirWonI agree 100%. Too fast, too steep, relatively high DA. Pilot error. Similar thread on JH.
JH?
Monk

[Woolf]

Why always assume some vanishingly unlikely technical reason?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion however why always assume human error? Especially if there had been previous problems? I'm not saying it couldn't have been human error however it's by no means 100%
Just my opinion but it looks as though the rate of descend on the inital flare above the treeline is almost zero and I wouldn't have thought vortex ring would be an issue here. The descend from there onwards is quite steep and there doesn't seem to be any collective input until the aircraft touches the ground which would agree with a low NR indication.
Even if the pilot had misjudged the approach why not apply power and check the rate of descend or go around (assuming this is not vortex ring)? I haven't flown the aircraft in question and don't know the environmental conditions (weight/altitude/temp) but I would have though the aircraft would at least be able to arrest the rate of descend?
Also according to the accident report the pilot did not intend to land at the helipad?

[ron-powell]

Tommy1954: NTSB-DENO2LA010, REG.N119RX, DATE 11/09/2001
This is the one.

Agaricus bisporus: Why always assume some vanishingly unlikely technical reason?

And what exactly did you assume here? Did you even read the freaking thread or the accident report. IT WAS A MIS-RIGGED THROTTLE.

AirWon: I agree 100%. Too fast, too steep, relatively high DA. Pilot error. Similar thread on JH.

Glad you agree, since it doesn’t appear you read the accident report either. And to reference Justhelicopters – sorry but I’m just laughing out loud.

[dragman]

The first report (the fatal one) mentions tail boom seperation. The chopper in the vid still has the tail boom attached.

[Nubian]

The ones that bother reading the report, can read:

He lowered
the collective control and noticed engine and rotor rpm had decreased to 96 percent, activating the
LOW ROTOR RPM warnings. He realized he was too low to attempt an autorotation. He reduced
collective and pitch attitude further. RPM drooped to 90 percent and stabilized. Approximately 20
to 30 feet above the helipad, the pilot raised the collective control to flare for landing. RPM
rapidly deteriorated. The aircraft impacted the helipad in a tail-down position, rolled over, and
came to rest on its left side. The entire accident was captured on videotape.

Should remove any doubt to IF it's the right accident, UNLESS this is a normal occurence!!! (A119, AT a Hostpital heli-pad, hitting tail first, rolling to the left, AND on tape!!) :E

[Mixmaster Utah]

The crash happened in Ogden Utah at Mckay-Dee Hospital. About 4500ft and about 5 miles from 9500-10000ft mountains, first flight to that hospital in that machine, with the DO in the copilot seat and a experenced pilot flying the A119. He just did not have much time in the A119 (delivery flight only). It was a MX issue not Vortex ring state, we are just seeing the end of what amounts to an autorotation. Makes for interesting viewing though. They all ended up with compression fractures of their backs. The Flight nurse is still in litigation. Fly Safe

[AirWon]

Mr. Powell,
Thank you for your kind words. I, perhaps, am a little more cynical than you. A pilot statement in an accident report doesn't make it gospel. The video seems pretty clear. He's flaring the crap out of it just after you see it come around the corner of the building. With the settling and the rate of decent and the fact that the Koala sits so tail low......well, the rest is history.
Regarding my reference to JH, I was simply stating that a similar debate was happening on another forum. Get over yourself.

[ron-powell]

Hey there Airwon:
>A pilot statement in an accident report doesn't make it gospel.
Absolutely. Of course the subsequent accident investigation revealed that the aircraft throttle was mis-aligned, i.e. not operating correctly. Emperical evidence you can measure. No opinion/comment necessary.
Here's the link to the NTSB probable cause:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=DEN02LA010&rpt=fi
Here's the link to the factual report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=DEN02LA010&rpt=fa
The guys at the factory didn't even know why it was doing what it was doing.
Pilot error.....right.

[Nubian]

AirWon,

Why don't read the FACTUAL report about what happened instead of posting statements like:

I agree 100%. Too fast, too steep, relatively high DA. Pilot error.

He's flaring the crap out of it just after you see it come around the corner of the building. With the settling and the rate of decent and the fact that the Koala sits so tail low......well, the rest is history

Arrogant and Ignorant, bad combination!!:ugh:

[Ken Wells]

OK thats enough, there by the grace of God .. and all that.

Found this silly bit on youtube jumping from a R44. Now that is asking for trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_X85Aqoq8Y&feature=related

[AirWon]

So much anger!! Where the hell did that come from....?
"Arrogant and ignorant"!! Now steady on there, Lofty. I suggest you take that kind of talk to the site that your friend, Mr. Powell holds so much contempt for.
I suppose I should be flattered that my opinion generates so much passion. It helps this slow Sunday afternoon pass a little quicker.
Really though, boys, calm down.