Nimrod families angry at OBE [Archive]

SirToppamHat

2nd Jan 2008, 14:25

Spheroid

Been there, done that, and it's a sufficiently humbling experience that I certainly wouldn't wish it on any of my friends or colleagues - not sure about my enemies though. Sadly, it's part of the job. I can't imagine what it must be like for a sqn cdr.

Often in cases like this (and I haven't read the citation), the award is made to the commander personally, though it is intended as recognition for all involved. Sadly, it's not often seen like that.

By the way, the link didn't take me to the 'story', neither could I see it on the splash page - perhaps it's been pulled?

STH

TheSmiter

2nd Jan 2008, 14:37

Its still there STH ,in the menu on the LHS, this is the 'story' :

Relatives of the RAF Kinloss Nimrod crew killed in a crash have attacked a decision to award the man in charge at the time of the accident an OBE.

Wing Commander Martin Cannard was named in the New Year's Honours List for his work with the bereaved families.

Graham Knight, whose son was one of 14 airmen killed in the Afghanistan crash, said the decision "beggars belief".

As I said, perhaps TD can comment further next time he's on.

RandomBlah

2nd Jan 2008, 15:04

OC CXX is completely deserving of this award and I offer him my most sincere congratulations. It is a pity that derogatory glib comments have already appeared on this topic.

RB

andgo

2nd Jan 2008, 15:24

OC CXX.
A well deserved award.
I will never forget friends and collegues on crew 3 but taking it out on the Sqn Boss, who took over just before the accident and who has led the Sqn under the most difficult of circumstances, is not the way forward. :=

airwaverider

2nd Jan 2008, 15:28

Here is another link

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/01/02/nimrod-families-fury-as-commander-gets-obe-86908-20271750/

5206

2nd Jan 2008, 15:40

Having read the Daily Record link, I also think that blaming OC CXX for the state of the aircraft is very simplistic and that the journos have gone for the nerve touching aspect of this.

5206

groveaviation

2nd Jan 2008, 17:34

Having read the article, the only thing that's a disgrace is The Daily Record. These guys obviously think it's justified journalism to phone recently bereaved families and drop the news on them from a great height, in the hope of getting a reaction.

Hope the scumbags are proud of themselves.

SirToppamHat

2nd Jan 2008, 17:58

Thank you TheSmiter and airwaverider, found it now.

STH

Mad_Mark

2nd Jan 2008, 18:26

As has been said before, Martin only took over as OC CXX a very short time before this tragic event. Despite his short time on the Sqn he did know several of those lost very well as a result of his previous tours on the fleet.

He had to put up with the press, many 'behind the scenes' duties related to the losses, keeping his Sqn going at home and whilst deployed on Ops, and much more, all whilst going through his own grieving process. For those that know Martin you will have seen how many more grey hairs he gained whilst dealing with the aftermath of XV230. Yes, the VO's deserve recognition for the huge part they played, but them not receiving awards should not detract from Martin getting his.

For the families to come out and effectively say that he was partly responsible for the loss of their loved ones is misguided, at best. IMHO he did an exceptional job and deserves this award.

Well done Sir :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

Laboratoryqueen

2nd Jan 2008, 18:50

I am at a total loss to why there is this reaction towards him being given this honour, personally I send him my deepest congratulations. He had only been in the position for a short time, and I commend him on a job well done.

A few pointers which the article in the telegraph brought up for me. The quote made by Graham Knight (TD), "This man was responsible for the safe operation of the Nimrod and the safety of its crews.
"He was one of those with responsibility for assuring the airworthiness and safety of the aircraft, including the mechanics.
"It's totally inappropriate and an insult to the families to give him a medal.
"He should have been shown the door and instead he gets an OBE. It's like a slap in the face."
First off, it was the responsibility of the safety case, not Cannard, to identify potential hazards. Liability over the failings of the safety case have been admitted and fault lies with this body not with Cannard. Up until the day of the hearing, Cannard or any of the groundcrew or aircrew, had no knowledge of the existence of the safety case. If the existence of the safety case was known, why was it not uncovered in the exhaustive research performed by Tapper's Dad and his supporters?

A comment was made in the same article that nothing had been heard from Cannard to the families. He had a squadron to run during a year of intense pressure, continued lack of manpower due to dets and other reasons, and the families all had VO's. They acted as a go between as well as their other duties to us and to their own work. What is to be expected of him, be in constant contact with 14 next of kins and the extended families as well as running a squadron, I wouldn't expect that of any man. Information was passed on via the VO's. I certainly don't find it an insult and I don't feel like I've been slapped in the face. I would like to see all the VO's acknowledged, at least. Problem is where does it end. Their families became involved with us, then there are those behind the scenes as it were, who isolated the crash site, who recovered our loved ones. So many poeple had a hand in bringing our boys back to us and helping us to lay them at rest, in showing us the respect and dignity which they held for them.

Another point, an ordinary bod on the street reading certain comments can easily see past the fact that the main fault in this was the policy and not those expected to carry out the work.

If it had been Des Browne being given an award for a job well done, then I would be intensely insulted, the only job he has done well is to degrade our forces.

So yes Martin Cannard OBE, my best wishes to you and my respect for coming through a difficult year, and as always Hugs.

LQ

retrosgone

2nd Jan 2008, 18:52

As one who worked with OC CXX for many years, I can think of few if any more able, humane and competent officers. This honour - which he will be entirely aware is a recognition of the hard work of many individuals as well as of his outstanding leadership qualities - is not something he would have sought out for himself.

It should be no surprise that angry and bereaved families have trouble maintaining perspective in such circumstances - I probably wouldn't either - but the press would do better to ask the people who really know what went on behined the scenes after this terrible tragedy, and not to attempt to impugn the reputaion of this fine officer.

Laboratoryqueen

2nd Jan 2008, 18:57

It should be no surprise that angry and bereaved families have trouble maintaining perspective in such circumstances - I probably wouldn't either - but the press would do better to ask the people who really know what went on behined the scenes after this terrible tragedy, and not to attempt to impugn the reputaion of this fine officer.Where the story be in that. The press were fully aware of who to approach for this exact response, how to get that response and exactly how to report that response. The only response they have ever been given from me has been "you are a bunch of vultures, **** off", not ladylike, it sums my feelings up for the press.

They have chosen the angle to take over this whole sad loss, and they will use what they can to continue in that.

camelspyyder

2nd Jan 2008, 19:27

This article really is beyond belief. If the sources quoted really did make those comments about OC CXX, then maybe they should come and meet me and some other members of the Sqn behind the bikesheds for a few lessons in respect:ouch:...

CS

Not Long Here

2nd Jan 2008, 19:40

I have known Martin since he held on 206 Sqn as a Pilot Officer many, many years ago. I have always been deeply impressed by his professionalism, integrity, humanity and ability to relate to all people at all levels.

I was not involved at all in the events of the last year as I have chosen to take a different path but cannot believe that Martin would have acted with anything other than the qualities above and has probably given everything to keep things together under incredibly trying circumstances for all involved in Nimrod operations.

Respect

Charlie Luncher

2nd Jan 2008, 19:44

It is nice to see CXX (TS) being awarded for their hard and continuous work in very trying and difficult times through the award to their CO.
Many people deal with grief in varied ways.
Charlie sends

nav attacking

2nd Jan 2008, 20:56

Sir, OC CXX, Martin.
I hope the misguided comments of a few of the relatives in the press will not detract from the pride you should feel in being recognised with this award.
I know that this has been one of the most difficult years of your life and you handled the situations that you came up against impeccably. There is no training that can prepare anyone for the circumstances you found yourself in within a few weeks of taking command of the Squadron.
Do not let the vitriolic words of a few take anything away from this award, you deserve this more than anyone else.

groveaviation

2nd Jan 2008, 21:13

The Daily Record have a news forum, there is a thread on this subject:

http://forums.dailyrecord.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=913

Maybe time for a bit of education.

Jackonicko

2nd Jan 2008, 21:34

As a journalist, I have never had much respect for the third-raters who populate so many local and regional newspapers, and expect very little from them.

I must say that I would have expected better from Tapper's Dad, despite his loss, who should surely know better than his reported comments would indicate.

And like many of those journos who sometimes work closely with the RAF, I'd want to add my congratulations to OC CXX, who has always seemed like a bloody good chap, and one who goes the extra mile for his people, and who therefore deserves this honour.

shona beattie

2nd Jan 2008, 22:04

Safety_Helmut

2nd Jan 2008, 22:07

Lab Queen, lets get a few things straight here:
First off, it was the responsibility of the safety case, not Cannard, to identify potential hazards. Liability over the failings of the safety case have been admitted and fault lies with this body not with Cannard. Up until the day of the hearing, Cannard or any of the groundcrew or aircrew, had no knowledge of the existence of the safety case. If the existence of the safety case was known, why was it not uncovered in the exhaustive research performed by Tapper's Dad and his supporters?

A Safety Case is not responsible for anything. Responsibiity and Authority is vested in people, not paper. The responsibility for the Safety Case lies with the IPTL and the RTSA. See JSP553 for details.

The Nimrod Safety Case has been actively discussed on here for some time, and certainly long before the findings of the BOI were announced.

Why did the aircrew and groundcrew know nothing of the Safety Case ? Part of the wider problem I'm afraid. see the other Nimrod thread for the discussion.

S_H

Lamenting Navigator

2nd Jan 2008, 22:10

B:mad:y media. Martin's a top bloke.

Laboratoryqueen

2nd Jan 2008, 22:28

SH

A Safety Case is not responsible for anything. Responsibiity and Authority is vested in people, not paper. The responsibility for the Safety Case lies with the IPTL and the RTSA. See JSP553 for details.

The Nimrod Safety Case has been actively discussed on here for some time, and certainly long before the findings of the BOI were announced.

Why did the aircrew and groundcrew know nothing of the Safety Case ? Part of the wider problem I'm afraid. see the other Nimrod thread for the discussion.

S_H

The part in red, have no idea what you're saying there.

The Safety case was one of the policies in place which was given as being at fault. The Groundcrew and Aircrew knew nothing of it as at no time were any of them consulted with regards to potential hazards on the planes which they fly and worked on. Yes all this is part of the wider problem which is why there are to be reviews in policy, and a further inquiry with possibly a public inquiry, which will investigate this.

The fact that individual hazards were recorded by the safety case, and yet at no time was that information correlated to show the hazard as a whole shows a massive failing in the policies of the safety case.

Something which Cannard or any others at ISK had nothing to do with.

Shona, don't worry about it honey, I know that if you had something to say, you'd be the one at the front of the room doing most of the talking but you'd be doing it to him :ok:

Safety_Helmut

2nd Jan 2008, 22:35

That doesn't surprise me !

S_H

Laboratoryqueen

2nd Jan 2008, 22:39

What doesn't surprise you?

cynicalint

2nd Jan 2008, 23:31

Shona see PMs

Winco

3rd Jan 2008, 08:00

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Firstly, a very happy New year to you all. I sincerely hope that 2008 sees a satisfactory conclusion to this appalling incident and those involved can find peace at last.

I hope you will permit me to say just a few words in a kind of defence of Graham Knight, Tappers Dad.

I think the thing that has upset him the most about this is that he see's someone effectively 'profiting' from the loss of XV230, in that the OC of CXX has been awarded an OBE, and that must be difficult for him to accept.

Graham Knight is not a vindictive man I am certain of that. He is just a father who has lost his son and he is, rightly in my opinion, angered by what was happening with the Nimrod fleet leading up to the loss of 230 and the events since the crash.

Whilst his comments may have been a little 'misguided and unfortunate' shall we say (and I haven't read exactly what he said) could I suggest that we cut him a bit of slack and try to understand how he must be feeling right now, knowing that the Boss of his son's squadron has just received a significant award as a result of the loss of one of his aircraft and crews? I think I might feel a little bit 'miffed' also if it were me.

For my part, I would also wish to offer OC CXX hearty congratulations on the award, together with everyone else on CXX. Those who have an OBE (and I am slightly embarrassed to say I have one also!) will know that it is but a simple recognition, NOT for just one persons efforts and hard work, but for a whole bunch of people, in this case all those on CXX. Well done to you all.

Yours Aye
The Winco

TANTALLON

3rd Jan 2008, 08:16

I was serving on CXX in 1995 when we lost seven of our best at the Toronto Airshow. Throughout the aftermath, the press were difficult and obstructive. Reporters would arrive uninvited at the doors of grieving families and would knowingly embellish a dropped comment and print half truths. We attempted to have a certain paper banned from Kinloss but were prevented from doing so by MOD. The fact that the editor has apologised to Shona is a step in the right direction but editors also apologised in 1995. The editor has sold his papers and the money is in the bank, ultimately that is all he is concerned about. These people have no understanding of the concepts of compassion and decency.
I would add that I also know Martin Cannard very well and the reported comments will have hurt him to the quick. In my view, CXX could not have a better human being at the helm during these difficult times.

Sand4Gold

3rd Jan 2008, 08:27

It is unfortunate that this Thread is heading in the direction it is - 'andgo' summed it up for me in his reply -

but taking it out on the Sqn Boss, who took over just before the accident and who has led the Sqn under the most difficult of circumstances, is not the way forward.

I am not sure where 'Winco' is heading with his contribution -

I think I might feel a little bit 'miffed' also if it were me.

which was followed by

I would also wish to offer OC CXX hearty congratulations on the award

I am sure this award is well deserved and I certainly do not feel it is totally inappropriate.

Winco

3rd Jan 2008, 08:56

AA

I'm not 'heading' anywhere my dear chap!

I was simply saying that if I was in the position of TD, and without the benefit of knowing how the honours system works (in the Military) then I might feel a little bit disgruntled at seeing someone 'gaining' from the tragic events of the loss of XV230.

Please don't read anything more into it than that. I am not on a campain for Graham Knight - he has proved to us all that he can fight (and win) his own battles. I am just asking that we show a little bit of compassion and understanding for someone who is perhaps seeing this award slightly differently than most of us here do.

I also do not feel the award is inappropriate and would once again offer congratulations and best wishes to all on 120 and ISK in general.

The Winco

Tis I

3rd Jan 2008, 09:12

I, like tantallion was on CXX in 1995 and I was closely involved with the aftermath. I also know Martin Cannard well and saw how much the Afghanistan Tragedy effected him. I watched him during numerous funeral services and press conferences and was impressed by the inner strength he show at such a trying time when he had only arrived back to take command of CXX within the previous 2 weeks. He did an oustanding job in the most difficult of circumstances. I fully support his award and send him my heartiest congratulations. I don't believe the award was solely related to the tragedy but merely put him in the spotlight where he was noticed for the calibre of the man he is.
I also commend Shona for coming here and stating her piece and clarifying what we all know about the press. The TV news last night was still reporting it as "The Nimrod Families" a collective noun which tars all with the same brush. I can't help but notice the lack of input from Tapper's Dad on this topic though. He didn't hold back much over the previous 12 months when he was seeking and, rightfully given, a lot of assistance in his quest. Might be time to clear the air on this one.
To all the families of this tragedy and those of other absent friends may I wish you all the best for 2008 and beyond. Nothing can replace your loved one but our thoughts are with you and them wherever they may be.

parabellum

3rd Jan 2008, 09:15

Probaly around forty years ago a Britannia crashed in the then Yugoslavia killing all on board. The wife of the captain was out shopping and knew nothing of the crash, she was met at her door by a crowd of baying press and the questeion that always stuck in her mind was the reporter who said, "How does it feel to be the wife of a man who has just killed 100(?) passengers?". There are exceptions, Jacko is proably one, but don't expect too much from the press.

EdSet100

3rd Jan 2008, 09:48

Winco,

Please don't read anything more into it than that. I am not on a campain for Graham Knight - he has proved to us all that he can fight (and win) his own battles. I am just asking that we show a little bit of compassion and understanding for someone who is perhaps seeing this award slightly differently than most of us here do.

We don't need you, Old Chap, to be an apologist for Mr Knight. He's an active and competent user of this site and he is welcome to contribute to this discussion on the same terms that he has in other matters. We have supplied him with some answers to some questions and we have been sympathetic. He forgot to pause and ask one final question, though: What responsibility, if any, did OC 120 Sn hold in respect to the safety of his Crew 3? The answer is that he was responsible for ensuring that they were adequately trained, prepared and motivated for the events that lay ahead of them, regardless of which aircraft was allocated to them. OK, it wasn't the current OC 120 Sn who personally bore that responsibility, but it is clear that the Sqn Executive, as a body, met that requirement.

Wg Cdr Cannard has acted impeccably, shown great leadership and ensured that unbounded compassion and support has been afforded to Mr Knight and the all the other bereaved families, since 2 Sep 06 and I, for one, will not give Mr Knight any slack in this particular discussion.

Ed

moggiee

3rd Jan 2008, 10:36

Would like to say, I did not give permission of anything that was said in the daily record, I have been given an apology for that by the editor. I have been miss quoted and did not say half of what has been printed, I said that Martin Cannard has helped us and vo's and the men who were killed should be awarded also. I have apologised to Martin Cannard for what was said and the upset it has caused everyone. Please do not believe what has been said on my behalf, utterly disgusted and furious.
Shona,

Sadly none of what happened surprises me in the slightest. Most of the low-life scum that inhabit the printed media in this country are too lazy/insensitive/stupid to check facts.

I extend my sympathies to you, and everyone else affected by this tragedy. This sort of furore was the last thing that you needed.

difar69

3rd Jan 2008, 10:56

A press article based on rumour/heresay and misquotes? I'm not surprised. I am also not surprised that Mr Knight seems to have been the major contributor to the article. Unfortunately his views (if they are his) do not portray him in the best light. I do find it sickening that he is often quoted as the voice of all the families involved.
Would he like to post on this thread and explain why Wg Cdr Cannard should "have been shown the door" if he took over CXX a mere 2 weeks before the accident? Also if he'd like to read Edset's last post and digest the accurate, succint description of OC CXXs responsibilities, it may shed further light on the reasons why many of us on here find his comments ignorant and misplaced.

I echo the sentiments expressed earlier, in that there couldn't have been a better candidate to fill the shoes of OC CXX during the past 18mths, and he has handled the whole damn mess in a calm, controlled and dignified manner:D. Congrats on the OBE.

Dave Ishall

3rd Jan 2008, 11:03

Winco,

Martin Cannard is no more profiting from this particular tragedy any more than your average medal-winning soldier is profiting from the war in Afghanistan. I cannot understand how it could be perceived otherwise. He had a job to do in the face of the loss of his crew and he did it well. I respectfully suggest that the crew's families would have had a potentially worse time of it had he not been at the helm.

Given the choice I am sure he would rather have XV230 and its crew safe at Kinloss than an OBE in his post nominals. He is exceptionally worthy of this honour and its award in no way implies any disrespect to the brave crew of the 120th or their families.

Laboratoryqueen

3rd Jan 2008, 11:09

Something which will always stay with me.

Standing in the family enclosure at the repatriation, watching as the plane taxied and then stopped before us. The silence when there were so many people standing watching, even though you couldn't see most of the service personnel as they were out of our sight from inside the tent. Knowing what all of us were there for, that we had all lost a great man, our own private grief and yet sharing the grief so evident with others, yet even then knowing that everyone wanted to stand proud and show our respect for each and everyone as they were carried home.

I remember the first sob as the first coffin appeared, it set off a chain reaction as the enormity began to hit home, the reality was about to be lived and yet it still didn't seem real.

In the middle section of the family enclosure was Martin, standing straight and saluting and crying. We cried as they came home and he cried with us, from the first until the last.

He has shown the utmost respect, and he deserves that same respect.

Mad_Mark

3rd Jan 2008, 11:16

Winco...

I think the thing that has upset him the most about this is that he see's someone effectively 'profiting' from the loss of XV230

Firstly, I am sure TD is quite capable of telling us himself why he allegedly made the comments quoted in the press. It seems that he was more than ready to ask us for answers to his questions but less than willing to answer the questions and requests for comment others have asked of him in this thread.

Secondly, Martin is not 'profiting' from the loss of XV230, he is being recognised for the effort he put in, much of it behind the scenes, dealing with the aftermath of the terrible event. Would you, or TD (who you are apparently the spokesman for), begrudge others that have been awarded honours after other tragedies for the efforts that they put in at the time and afterwards?

I fully understand the anger that TD must be feeling towards 'the system' but to vent it against someone that had to pick up the pieces so soon after assuming command of CXX, which he did an exceptional job of, is simply wrong.

MadMark!!! :mad:

airwaverider

3rd Jan 2008, 11:37

The daily record star again!!!

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/01/03/nimrod-parents-in-plea-to-obe-chief-86908-20272791/

Tappers Dad

3rd Jan 2008, 12:11

It's very interesting.

I don't hear anyone complaining about Adele Squires saying "Cannard doesn't deserve this. He should never have been given it."
No its lets have a go a Tapper's Dad the greiving father.

If anyone on here would like to PM me I will be willing to reply and tell them the correct facts how I was told about the OBE and the full facts behind the story in the Daily Record and where the story originated from.

The Daily Record tapes all its conversations as do most major newspapers in case people want to question what was said and by who.

Roland Pulfrew

3rd Jan 2008, 12:47

If, and it is a big IF, the Knights and others have criticised OC 120 in the gutter press then it is they that deserve vilification.

TD if you said what has been printed in the gutter press then you should publicly explain yourself, not ask to do it by PM. := You have been publicly quoted denigrating a fine officer who did his best at a difficult time and I think that you will have lost a lot of support. If you did not say what are in those quotes, or they have been taken out of context, that is your fault for giving the journos a story. Either way you lose.

I would suggest that those criticising OC 120 do not know how the system works or what his citation for the award reads. OC 120 has a sqn to run after a tragic crash. It is not his primary job to visit families, it is to continue to maintain an operational outfit; only those on 120 and in the chain of command can comment on how effectively he achieved this. As for those allegedly claiming that they weren't asked about whether he should be the recipient of an award - well "Good, it is none of your business".

I have only met OC 120 in passing but I for one congratulate him on his award and he should not consider, even for a second, turning it down. Well done Martin. :D

goudie

3rd Jan 2008, 12:59

Lots of understandable emotioniol opinions being displayed on this thread but let's stop for a moment and
ask ourselves, would the 14 brave Aircrew who died in the Nimrod have approved of this award? I think they would have and in their honoured memory we should leave it at that.

BlackIsle

3rd Jan 2008, 13:09

Feelings are running high - always the same with Honours (and promotions) - but how unseemly and tangled it has become; for my part I'm with Roland P very well said mate:D

TANTALLON

3rd Jan 2008, 13:19

Many of us who have experienced the loss of friends and colleagues, whether in a conflict or by air accident have seen grief manifest itself in many forms. Anger and the urge to blame are understandable reactions but for goodness sake, point your finger at those who are truly culpable - Blair, Hoon, Reid, Browne. The government has already admitted its guilt. Martin Cannard did not start this conflict; his job was to ensure that his crews were prepared to meet whatever challenges they faced. Judging by the way Crew 3 responded to the emergency, he and his execs did a pretty good job.
TD now thinks everyone is getting at him, we are not, we wouldn't dare. But why is he and the Knight family attacking OC CXX? He did not cut Defence spending, he is not responsible for the obscene delays with the new aircraft. His task is to the best with what he has and if he has nothing else, he has great people on CXX.

BlackIsle

3rd Jan 2008, 13:37

Again I say "well said" to Tantallon this time - and of course an award is made by others in recognition of a notable contribution so please stop having a pop at the sqn boss who no doubt (along with his family) is gutted by unwarranted criticism of the award he is to be given when he should be delighted by it. You wear it with deserved pride Sir.

Duncan D'Sorderlee

3rd Jan 2008, 16:05

I have been reluctant to enter this thread; however, I feel that I must do so now. Tapper's Dad asked why no-one has complained about comments supposedly made in the gutter press by Adele Squires. Perhaps, sir, they have, but, as Adele has refrained from using PPRuNE, they have done it via another medium.
Duncan

moggiee

3rd Jan 2008, 16:26

It's very interesting.
I don't hear anyone complaining about Adele Squires saying "Cannard doesn't deserve this. He should never have been given it."
No its lets have a go a Tapper's Dad the grieving father.
Perhaps, Mr Knight, it's not so much what you said as the way in which you said it. Perhaps it's also because you appear to have had a another bash at Wg Cdr Cannard in the second article, whereas Adele squires has not (and indeed Shona Beattie has corrected the Record's misquote).

Have you been misquoted by the Record? Or are the words attributed to you correct? If you have been misquoted, then you have an opportunity to put us all straight.

No-one questions your grief and pain - we have all lost people dear to us during our lifetimes (but obviously not all of us in such tragic circumstances). However, I would ask you to remember this: OC CXX did NOT kill your son - that blame lies with the errors and omissions made people higher up the chain of command. The circumstances of this tragedy (I won't call it an accident) are shocking, but Wg Cdr Cannard is not to blame.

If the posts here accurately reflect the facts, it appears that OC CXX has done his best to help and comfort the bereaved, sharing (as much as any non-family member can) their pain. His OBE is reward for his efforts as a counsellor, support worker and shoulder to cry on - all roles which go above and beyond his normal remit as a CO.

If there is any justice, all 14 of the crew members on this aeroplane will receive posthumous recognition of their sacrifice - the fact that OC CXX has been given this award in no way denigrates the memory of your son and his colleagues.

EDIT: please note that the two previous posts were made whilst I was typing and did not influence what I have written above.

Seldomfitforpurpose

3rd Jan 2008, 16:42

Just a humble thought but cast your mind back to the outrage and pomposity abounding through Pprune when Caz Leavey's comments were first published, or the sniping etc with the recent Air Trafficker's tale.....:rolleyes:

There is not one of us here who do not hold the gutter press in total contempt for the way they treat EVERYONE. We have an earlier post from Shona explaining, she did not give any permission for what was published in her name, most of what was used was taken out of context and that she has an apology from the editor.

So maybe it's time a few of you climbed down of your high horses and cut TD some slack as there is high probability that he did not actually say what was printed and what ever he did say was then printed in a context guaranteed to whip the chattering classes into a frenzy.......................and it seems to have worked quite nicely :ugh:

Imagine how the gutter press must be giggling seeing so many professional grown men take their bait HOOK LINE AND SINKER.................:rolleyes:

Laboratoryqueen

3rd Jan 2008, 16:53

It is easy to take a small quote such as that credited to Shona and to present that out of context.

With the majority of these articles, the first and the second, I think trying to claim that this is then misquoting or taking out of context in such a massive scale is not possible. The second article has the reviewed quote from Shona and yet further quotes which hail a barrage of insults towards Martin being given the OBE.

Why should these insults be fired at him, the man has done no wrong and does not deserve what is being said.

Roland Pulfrew

3rd Jan 2008, 16:59

So maybe it's time a few of you climbed down of your high horses and cut TD some slack as there is high probability that he did not actually say what was printed and what ever he did say was then printed in a context guaranteed to whip the chattering classes into a frenzy

Sorry SFFP but TD has been on these forums since the first and second articles were printed by the DR. In the absence of any rapid denials, unlike those by Ms Beattie, we might assume that the quotations and story have a grain of truth. If they are incorrect, why not an outright denial? Either way it has left a nasty taste - perhaps a simple "no comment" to the DR would have been much more appropriate. One can only hope that, like Ms Beattie, TD has apologised to OC 120 and we can also hope that the DR does so as well - publicly and prominently!!

Secretsooty

3rd Jan 2008, 17:05

Tantallon, you missed one or two important names off your list....... the fools that allowed the "LEAN" process to be applied at Kinloss in such a way that there was an insufficient number of persons available to continue to maintain an old airframe in a suitable manner.

Reducing (or allowing to be reduced) your manpower by a given percentage (I don't know the exact percentages) just because you reduce the number of airframes by the same percentage DOES NOT WORK! The resultant chaos within the working engineering environment of 1st line (ok, "forward"!) and the ensuing mismanagement were all contributory factors. Now, NO BLAME rests with the poor sod engineers that were frantically trying their best to complete the tasks required to prepare and repair the aircraft, but surely some blame must rest with the fools that created that situation?

Satellite_Driver

3rd Jan 2008, 17:31

TD - if you have had concerns about OC CXX's conduct, be it in the short time between his assuming command and the terrible accident, or in the months afterwards, what response did you get when taking it up with him, or via appropriate other authority? Because I would really not want to think that, if you had such issues, then the first time they were raised was through the medium of the press.
For what it's worth, although I have no connection with anyone involved in the Nimrod accident, I had a colleague who lost someone very close in another major aircraft incident. I'm well aware of the terrible stress involved, and the anger and upset that every new detail or incident can bring, however remotely related or distant in time. But with my hand on my heart I can say that this sort of thing does not help. I've also dealt with the press, and I've seen the way in which they twist a story for everything it's worth, usually distorting it, and the real stories of the people involved, beyond all recognition. Think long and hard before riding that particular tiger.

MOA

3rd Jan 2008, 17:32

TD,
Unfortunately, I believe you have got it incredibly wrong here. This job is all about credibility. Credibility is hard won but so easily lost. You have earned great respect from many on this forum and the general public for your incredible strength and persistence to discover the truth behind these tragic events.
Some lines of inquiry were red herrings and some in the future may still be, but you have assessed the vast amount of information incredibly well and focused a lot of attention on what was, fundamentally, a broken system within the RAF, namely the airworthiness process of the RAF's current aircrafts.
This has earned you a great deal of credibility within this forum, the media and general public. You have become 'the official voice' of the relatives as seen from the outside looking in. However, your comments following the announcement of the OBE have all but crushed that credibility. Many of your keenest supporters have voiced their opinion that this is a minor misjudgement or quotes taken out of context, but the manner of your post and the two articles lead me to believe that you stand by these quotes.
This is a great shame as I believe your comments will lead to difficulty in you gaining 'inside' information in the future if you need it, as your previous methodical approach has been reduced to pure mudslinging. You know the RAF, you know the people involved, you know what makes us tick. The award of the OBE is nothing less than deserved for OC CXX as the situation he faced, so soon after assuming command was unprecedented in the history of Kinloss. Having to ensure that CXX remained motivated and committed in 2 Theatres of War and providing Homeland Assistance following the tragedy was no easy task.
Your comments will be taken by the general public as the reaction of all the relatives, even though some have already commented on this forum that they are not, and will obviously impact on OC CXX who no doubt has been affected by these comments.
I urge you to reconsider your comments so that this can be put behind us and there can be clear unity going into the Inquest this year. If not, it is a sad day as it looks like your quest for the truth has degenerated into solely ‘someone to blame’.

difar69

3rd Jan 2008, 18:24

Let's cut to the chase Mr Knight. You've been pretty vocal on these forums and in the press up until now. Do you stand by the comments made about OC CXX in the 2 daily record articles, which are attributed to you, or not?

Any credibility you have gained up to this point is rapidly fading away.

DFM

3rd Jan 2008, 18:33

Let us not be surprised or dismayed by the standard of this latest news item from the tabloid press, and irrespective of the comments from Mr Knight, I still wonder if others have been misquoted in the same appalling fashion as Shona?

In the meantime, I have to say that anybody who genuinely thinks Wg Cdr Martin Cannard doesn’t deserve some form of recognition for the outstanding leadership, compassion and integrity he has displayed as OC 120 Sqn, are either totally ignorant of the facts, or choosing to selectively overlook them. Irrespective of the terrible tragedy that has unfolded, he has lead the day to day running of a front line Sqn in a manner that very few of his peers could have equalled. Everyone involved over this period has had to deal with extremely complicated, demanding and sensitive issues, non-more so than he and on an almost daily basis; this award in part reflects that.

As said previously, I have stopped being surprised or dismayed at media conjecture, misquotes, half-truths and total lies. However, I would be saddened greatly if this latest piece of journalistic license meant the feelings of the vast majority are overlooked. Everyone I have spoken to about this subject believes the outstanding guidance and support Martin Cannard provided should be recognised formally. I also have to say that in all my years in the Service, this is without doubt an award that has the greatest of merit. Therefore, I for one want to warmly congratulate him :D.

Vage Rot

3rd Jan 2008, 19:43

Martin,

Well done and well deserved.

Best Regards
PM.

To everyone else, a finer Officer and gentleman you could not find. An example to all. Somebody has to be in charge and this Officer has done everything right. Lay off.

Lima Juliet

3rd Jan 2008, 19:55

Martin, I had the pleasure of working alongside you at STC and PJHQ - well done mate and I hope you enjoy your visit to "Auntie Bettys".

MOA - I concur...

it is a sad day as it looks like your quest for the truth has degenerated into solely ‘someone to blame’.

Tapper's Dad - you, sir, are a complete arse!

TEEEJ

4th Jan 2008, 00:09

Mother of Flt Lt Steven Swarbrick welcomes OBE award.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=dead-soldier-s-mother-welcomes-obe-for-commander&method=full&objectid=20308403&siteid=50061-name_page.html

flipflopman RB199

4th Jan 2008, 01:53

Perhaps the author Ben Schofield, or icLiverpool's editor could also work a little harder with his proof reading. The caption attached to Wg Cdr Cannard's photograh reads

"Wing Commander Martin Cannard died when his reconnaissance plane crashed in Afghanistan"

In seriousness however, All credit to Mrs Swarbrick for seeing through the BS and appreciating the true meaning of the award. Restores faith in humanity to some degree! Unfortunately, regarding Tappers Dad, I am in full agreement with Leon Jabachjabicz.

Flipflopman

Mr Point

4th Jan 2008, 04:43

TD,

I have agreed with many of your arguments regarding Nimrod safety but I strongly disagree with the recents comments made about Martin Cannard.

Although the timing could have been better, Martin's OBE award is fully justified and I have not spoken to a single person at ISK who has said otherwise.

I understand that comes only weeks after the BoI report release, and just after Christmas, which must be a very difficult time for you and your family, but this does not make the award any less justified.

Mr P

Distant Voice

4th Jan 2008, 10:19

In 1879, twelve VC's were awarded after the action at Rorke's Drift, not purely "For Valour", but to mask the screw up by the British Army at Isandhlwana the day before. Nothing has changed, whether it be Isandhlwana, the Charge of the Little Brigade or the loss of an aircraft, the War Office/MoD have the ability to convert tragedy into glory.

I do not know Martin Cannard, but I suspect that he held the squadron together, like any other good OC, because he was there. With regards to being ".. specifically recognised for his work with the families for supporting them and providing help and welfare", then that is for the families to react to, and comment on. No one else knows the manner in which they have been supported the past 14 months, and by whom.

Peolpe like Graham, Shona and other family members have given their honest reaction and opinion to the OBE award, and have done so as themselve, in public. They have not resorted to nasty comments from behind a pprune mask.

Please let us put this issue to rest and allow the families to focus their efforts on the future inquest without having to be subjected to the sort of comments that have been posted on this thread.

To Graham and Shona, I say, pprune is not "the world". It is one of many forums, which simply reflects the views of a very, very small minority of peolpe. Many of whom are afraid to come out of the shadows, unlike you.

DV

jan66

4th Jan 2008, 10:50

I havent been on here for awhile but do read ,hear and see articles in the papers and am again shocked and horrified at Td's comments.

I remember Martin Cannard coming to see my daughter when (deleted ) was killed and found him to be very sincere in sharing our loss.
Not something i'd expect Graham to remember.

Dont want to say too much but Graham isnt happy unless hes in the media eye for one reason or another and i think everyone should take a leaf out of our book and ignore him.

We all know how the guys would feel right now so lets not waste any time and congratulate Martin and all the VO's,all all the guys at Kinloss for the kind messages of sympathy and all the help and support we recieved.

Good on ya I say Martin...well done to you Sir.

SaddamsLoveChild

4th Jan 2008, 11:02

My dear chap, your comments have not helped your cause, I have every sympathy for your loss but you have now shown a terrible sense of occasion and very poor judgement - I support the safety case enquiry but not your personal crusade to attack the chain of command who are doing their best with what they have available. You, as a person have lost my support.

Shame on YOU, I believe that your son would be equally disappointed in your public and personal attack of a very fine officer.:=

TheSmiter

4th Jan 2008, 11:27

DV

pprune is not "the world"

No, but in this particular case there are a very high proportion of contributors who know the subject of this thread very well indeed. He is everything that has already been written ..........and more!

I'm not going to kick TD when he's down; he, and all the relatives, have suffered enough.

However, he should be well aware by now, that by attacking Wg Cdr Cannard in such a vitriolic manner, he made a serious error of judgement. One which, as others have said, has destroyed a large reservoir of goodwill that he built up since the tragedy.

Again, as others have pointed out, it's fine to shoot arrows, but you need to be aiming much much higher. The seeds of this tragedy were sown long ago. Think politics, think money.

DV, I wish you, TD, Shona, jan, LabQueen and all other friends and relatives a very happy and peaceful 2008.

I'd also like to add my own congratulations to Wg Cdr Martin Cannard OBE.

Can we put an end to this thread now?

Mick Smith

4th Jan 2008, 11:58

TheSmiter said:
DV, I wish you, TD, Shona, jan, LabQueen and all other friends and relatives a very happy and peaceful 2008.
I'd also like to add my own congratulations to Wg Cdr Martin Cannard OBE.
Can we put an end to this thread now?

All of that seconded!:ok:

As TheSmiter says, there are more important and deserving targets for the arrows.

Duncan D'Sorderlee

4th Jan 2008, 12:54

Further to my last; my wife has recently spoken to Adele, who was shocked and disappointed that the DR managed to get her telephone number and called her at lunchtime on New Year's Day. She was not tearful and, like Shona, is understandably upset that her comments were taken out of context by the reporter. As she has no PPRuNe nom de plume, she has asked that I respond on her behalf. See now hopes that the Press will let her get on with her life.

Let's hope that they do: however, I suspect not.

Green Flash

4th Jan 2008, 16:40

OK, I'll say something.

How about - Lets ALL put this episode behind us, ALL take a few lessons on board and push on TOGETHER to, hopefully, reveal the truth and gain a better future. For ALL. I think the lads on the Nimrod might have wanted that.

PS; Sir, :ok:

Delta Hotel

5th Jan 2008, 09:11

Martin,

Worked with you at HQSTC, and just wanted to congratulate you on your well deserved award.:D

Regards
DH

MightyHunter AGE

5th Jan 2008, 11:54

Congratulations Sir, a fine officer, we could do with a lot more like you.

dodgysootie

5th Jan 2008, 13:40

A worthy award for an outstanding officer. I cannot thank him enough for the way he publicly stood up for us groundcrew involved during what was, and still is, a very difficult period. Wg Cdr Cannard OBE. You have earned our respect. Well done Sir.
RIP CXX/3
DS

Mal Drop

5th Jan 2008, 16:40

OC CXX,

Having trained with you at Finningley and seen (albeit from a distance) your exemplary conduct during this tragic matter may I have the honour of offering you my congratulations on your award and my sincere thanks for your upstanding example as not only an officer of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force but also as a man.

Mal Drop (RAF Retd.)

Distant Voice

5th Jan 2008, 18:21

Why don't you guys write to Martin Cannard, or do you think he is pprune reader?

Then we can let this matter drop.

DV

5206

5th Jan 2008, 18:31

DV,

You were keen enough (and rightly so) to keep the Nimrod Info thread going.

Why not let the members of this forum continue to express their best wishes for someone the hold in high regard in the same manner?

As is oft said, if you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

5206

OmegaV6

5th Jan 2008, 18:49

DV ..

Just as folks have attacked percieved injustices in other threads .. Chinook, Nimrod, Hercules for example, .. and supported those who try to correct those injustices, then the another injustice - the attempted denigration of this award - will also be attacked.

Now I know nothing of this man, other than what I have read, but it appears he is well thought of and the award is highly supported by those that do know him.

To suggest that the thread is ended simply because you disagree is both impertinent and dishonest. Apply that standard across the board and no thread would last a day, especially the important threads were genuine differences of opinion are aired.

Contacttower

5th Jan 2008, 19:15

Why don't you guys write to Martin Cannard, or do you think he is pprune reader?

I'm sure many already have.

As an interested member of the public I like reading people's comments on this, it means I (and many others) can gain a better insight into these matters which is important to those who like to know what is going on in the armed forces. If people just sent letters, rather than posting their views on here then many people like me wouldn't hear the 'other side of the story' which by almost all accounts is that Martin Cannard is a great officer who deserved his OBE.

OK PPRuNe isn't the world, but its a lot better than the press.

blanketstacker

6th Jan 2008, 08:59

I was impressed by the strength of feeling engendered in this discussion that seems to have originated with the sad deaths of an RAF C130 crew. In fact two RAF multi-engined crews have died on operations in the all too recent past and I would hope that something can be done to prevent another in the future.

The RAF my be divided into fleets but the dangers are shared by all.

For those reading this thread with an interest in RAF aircraft safety in general and multi-engined or helicopter safety in particular may I invite you to view my own thread 'Overstretch & Budgets' and contribute what you can.

Thank you

difar69

6th Jan 2008, 11:00

DV,

Who the hell do you think you are, telling us how to use a public forum? As you've implied many times before, if you don't like it, don't read it.

Doha_lad

6th Jan 2008, 11:11

Thoroughly deserved sir.:ok: You were an example to me of how to lead.

Mike Hargreaves

My thoughts are still with all the families

betty swallox

6th Jan 2008, 11:18

Doha...he's a Wingco...

A2QFI

6th Jan 2008, 12:27

Semantics I know but the award was a 'Consequence' of the accident, not a Result. Why would the families be consulted about the award? It is given by the Queen after consideration of the merits, or otherwise, of the award by the recipient's superiors who obviously approve of the actions of this officer. He was in no way responsible for the state of aircraft or the level of tasking or any other contributory factor (SFAIK). He had been in post for 2 weeks, people who knew him from earlier postings held him in high regard, he appears to have carried out his duties with more than due diligence and sensitivity. While the award may seem inappropriate, to those still grieving their losses, standing back and looking at the bigger picture most people would find it both appropriate and non-controversial.

goudie

6th Jan 2008, 13:54

Why don't you guys write to Martin Cannard,

It's public acknowledgement for a job well done.
It's good to know that the RAF still has officers of his calibre.

Seldomfitforpurpose

6th Jan 2008, 14:37

"It's public acknowledgement for a job well done."

It's nothing of the sort and fine well you know it :rolleyes:

If TD had not been rightly/wrongly quoted in a newspaper article do you HONESTLY believe we would have had 5 pages of "Jolly well done sir" in this manner............how many other threads have been started extolling the virtues of the many who received such awards :rolleyes:

We often denigrate the British press for their carrion like manner but I do think a few of the posters in this thread need to step back and consider whether the vitriolic nature of their post are REALLY appropriate when made toward someone who has suffered in the way TD so obviously has :=

A2QFI

6th Jan 2008, 15:25

The thread is titled "Nimrod Families angy at OBE". Whether this is true or not, the matter has been aired in public, and people who know this officer are merely saying that they think that the award is not unreasonable. Who has a problem with that?

Winco

6th Jan 2008, 16:09

SFFP
Well said Sir!

Jackonicko

6th Jan 2008, 16:56

I see very little vitriol directed at TD, just a lot of disappointment and a fair degree of pretty gentle telling off, most of it from people who make their underlying sympathy for TD pretty clear.

Had a journo criticised OC CXX there really would have been feathers flying.

moggiee

6th Jan 2008, 22:07

We're still waiting to hear from Mr Knight as to whether or not he was misquoted/quoted out of context (as was the case with some others).

If we don't, then it is likely that most readers will assume that the quotes were a correct reporting of Mr Knights words.

Distant Voice

7th Jan 2008, 06:51

SFFP: 100% spot on.

DV

Roland Pulfrew

7th Jan 2008, 07:38

mileandahalf

Well said. :D

TD was, despite his loss, wrong on this one. An unnecessary and personal attack on someone who cannot publicly fight back. :=

Winco

7th Jan 2008, 08:15

mileandahalf,

I am happy to respond to your question, although I am certain I will come in for further abuse, but not to worry.

I should say that I do NOT know Mr Knight, I have NOT read what he is alledged to have said, and I am certainly NOT his spokesman, however, like everyone on this thread, I have an immense amount of respect and sympathy for him. He has worked tirerlessly since the accident and has come up against many brick walls along the way. Despite this, his efforts will, IMHO, make the Nimrod fleet a safer place.

I believe that HIS perception of this award (and please note HIS perception, not mine or anyone elses) is that Wg Cdr Cannard has been given this award as a direct result of the loss of XV230. I don't know if that is the case, clearly many think that it is for other things also, however I understand the citation clearly states that it is for his handling of things since the crash. If that is correct, then perhaps the fault lies with the citation, because I doubt very much if Wg Cdr Cannard was recognised just for his efforts post XV230 alone.

Either way, it dosen't really matter - he has been awarded it, and I, along with just about everyone else, has offered congratulations to him. Those who know him have spoken extremely highly of him, and I have no reason to doubt his calibre at all, or what he has done, so well done again to him and everyone else on CXX and ISK, because this has been a team effort without doubt.

Nevertheless, it has clearly caused concern for Mr Knight, in that he see's someone as effectively 'profiting' from the crash and whilst I don't agree with him, I believe that is the way he views it. I can see where he is coming from, especially if the wording on the citation states (as is reported) that it for his work post crash. I cannot ever recall, a Sqn Cdr receiving an award as a result of an aircraft crash, let alone a one which has had so much controversy attached to it, can anyone else I wonder?

Now, perhaps as a gesture of goodwill to everyone, could I suggest that we all get back to the real crux of this posting, and give Mr Knight a break from all this 'bad blood' and let him ponder for a while about what he did or didn't say? We all say things in the heat of the moment, that are both wrong and inapropriate and maybe this was one of those unfortunate times for Mr Knight. This is but one chapter in a very sad and tragic event, and I would respectfully request that we now put it to bed.

The Winco

Laboratoryqueen

7th Jan 2008, 09:45

Throughout the months since this accident Mr Knight has always made very public statements in all forms of the media, on here, in the newspapers, radio and television, he has always put his opinion across. During that time several family members, myself included, came here to request that this media involvement be wound down to allow the other families their peace in their time of grief. It was made very clear that Mr Knight would continue to do as he saw fit and would continue to do what he wanted and when he wanted, disregarding the feelings of others involved.

And yet now there is no public response and this is speaking volumes to many.

The view of the other family members who have posted in this thread has been to congratulate Martin on his award and also a desire to see our VO's recognised in some manner, as we know exactly the lengths they have gone for us.

The majority of two articles spreading over two days was made up of statements by the Knights with personal attacks on a very fine officer. That would amount to a great deal of misquoting on the newspapers behalf.

I received a response by pm from Mr Knight to a request made by myself which was of interest to all families with regards to the inquest, however due to my views in this thread he has declined to show his support.

I can only form my own opinions on what this says to me.

Mick Smith

7th Jan 2008, 10:33

MOGGIEE

[We're still waiting to hear from Mr Knight as to whether or not he was misquoted/quoted out of context (as was the case with some others).

If we don't, then it is likely that most readers will assume that the quotes were a correct reporting of Mr Knights words.

TD said very early on that if anyone wanted to pm him he would explain the exact situation, which is not as clear-cut as regards to how the newspaper article came about as all too many on this thread seem very keen to assume.

TheSmiter and a number of others, including myself, suggested a long time back that the point about the award had been well made, so could we now stop the thread. I personally have nothing against the congratulations for the squadron commander continuing. I seconded TheSmiter when he offered such congratulations. (Although perhaps a new thread with a more positive title might be more appropriate.)

But the continued having a go at TD long since stopped being about making the point. It is already very well made, politely, firmly and sensibly by some but in a very nasty fashion by others.

When I first joined this forum a number of years ago I had to read some rules which said that whether you agree or disagree with someone you should feel free to say so but that in doing so you should treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself. Someone seems to have torn them up somewhere along the line.

Seldomfitforpurpose

7th Jan 2008, 11:22

Mick Smith,

Much better put than my missive but exactly the point I was trying to make.

tucumseh

7th Jan 2008, 14:54

I have a feeling someone in the MoD and/or Honours Committee is thinking “Oops”.

Having been forced into very publicly accepting liability in a statement to the House, Des Browne must be wondering why his team can’t put one and one together, have a quiet word with the Honours Committee and say “Not this time old chap, let’s wait and see the outcome”. And if the Honours Committee couldn’t see this one coming, what with their direct links to MoD and Nimrod (a 30 second Google if you’re wondering) and the first hand advice available to them, then surely the penny dropped when the QQ report was released. (Perhaps they, too, are cursing the timing). To me, this merely indicates again what an absolute howler of an own goal that was. Quite clearly, those in MoD who knew of the report didn’t imagine for one minute it would see the light of day. And they’re so disjointed in everything they do, they just couldn’t react quickly enough. Des must be apoplectic.

I understand the MoD’s typically facetious reply to the issue of timing was “Well, when better to make an award in the New Years Honours list than New Year?” I’ll tell you when – after the dust has settled and you’ve established the facts. It’s often said by recipients “This isn’t for me, it’s for the team”. Well, in my opinion, Tapper’s Dad has every right to feel let down by the “team”, by which I mean the MoD as a whole. That’s not just his or my opinion – it’s a simple fact acknowledged by the Secretary of State when he apologised. If you cannot see how provocative and upsetting this is to him, then I despair, yet hope you never find yourself in the same position. It is the effect on HIM that matters, no-one else.

Whatever the outcome of the QC’s review (and he still hasn’t answered correspondence on the subject), history will show that Tapper’s Dad did more for Military aviation safety than anyone would have thought possible. He had the balls to stand up to people whose attitude to safety and airworthiness has been, frankly, nothing short of criminal negligence. Some of you, or your children, may be glad of that one day.

I know what my first question to a certain retired 2* would be. “So ***, why did you rule airworthiness and safety were optional, and did that ruling apply to all the aircraft you were responsible for, including Nimrod?” I think this and other issues – read the QQ report - are a lot more important, don’t you? Make no mistake, there is more to come on this, that no award will be able to gloss over.

Roland Pulfrew

7th Jan 2008, 15:24

I have a feeling someone in the MoD and/or Honours Committee is thinking “Oops”.

Why? If OC 120 get his award for his work after the crash in supporting the families AND keeping his squadron together, operational and effective then he should rightly be recognised for his efforts.

Make no mistake, there is more to come on this, that no award will be able to gloss over.

That may be true but that is not what this is about. The award is not an attempt to gloss over anything. := The award is to an individual for his and, no doubt, his teams (Othe Bugg3rs Efforts) response to the crash, which in this case has been recognised by the relevant chain of command.

Any "own goal" here has been scored by TD. His comments, misquoted or not, in the Daily Record have rightly lost him a lot of sympathy.

Distant Voice

7th Jan 2008, 16:44

I sincerely hope that Martin Cannard has read the QinetiQ report, but some how I do not think he has. No one can read that report and believe the aircraft fuel systems are safe, as he and the Stn Cmdr claim ----- Perhaps this should be on the other thread?

DV

Seldomfitforpurpose

7th Jan 2008, 17:37

Tuc,

Outstanding post Sir :ok:

...........Roland I am pretty sure in the months to come you will look back on your post and realise that it was without doubt "not your finest hour" :rolleyes:

tucumseh

7th Jan 2008, 19:14

“The real problem here is that you folk have to have the last word”

May I respectfully suggest that the real problem is that if folk whose primary aim is to attain and maintain airworthiness do not have the last word, then more avoidable deaths will occur.

1771 DELETE

7th Jan 2008, 21:06

Not initially wanting to enter into this discussion but feel i ought to give my support to Martin Cannard.
Having served with him on 3 different units, i have the highest regard for his integrity and officer qualities, unlike many other senior officers still serving.
On 206, we lost a nav due to a serious illness, Martin as nav leader and deputy sqn cdr acted incredible well for both the family and the sqn members.
His award comes for his considerate actions following the sad loss of crew 3, he didn`t volunteer but was thrown in at the deep end, no blame for the loss can be laid at his feet. I think the families were very fortunate in such difficult circumstances to have Martin as the CO, and not some other wg cdr.

Congratulations on a well earned OBE.

Vage Rot

7th Jan 2008, 22:07

Nevertheless, it has clearly caused concern for Mr Knight, in that he see's someone as effectively 'profiting' from the crash

Someone other than the press profiting? Never!!! :rolleyes: Of course, selling papers is never the aim of researching a story!!:yuk:

goudie

8th Jan 2008, 09:00

Ladies and Gentlemen, it would seem that anyone who had anything to say re. this award has said it. May I suggest we now show our respects to crew 3 and their families by bringing this particular Nimrod thread to a close?

FJJP

8th Jan 2008, 21:25

I don't know Wg Cdr Cannard, but I have been deeply involved in several multi-engine fatal accidents.

I know that the Sqn Execs have one hell of a job on their hands with the families, not to mention the effects officers [or whatever they are called these days]. It is an incredibly stressful time. The OC in particular has not only to deal with the families [and their close relatives, which can be a terrible time], but they have to deal with the guys on the Sqn, keeping them going despite the loss of close friends and colleagues.

After 2 weeks on the Sqn, Wg Cdr Cannard had to deal with it all, compounded by the fact that he probably did not know some of the crew or their families.

In my view, the award was thoroughly deserved. The families would probably agree, given the chance away from the media frenzy...

enginesuck

19th Jan 2008, 18:21

Seeing that Mr Knight has once again come out of the woodwork on other threads, would it be too much trouble for him to comment on his opinion to this thread???

goudie

19th Jan 2008, 18:50

Seeing that Mr Knight has once again come out of the woodwork on other threads, would it be too much trouble for him to comment on his opinion to this thread???

It seems that you're the one to have come out of the woodwork. For all practical purposes this thread is closed. I'm sure Mr Knight has better things to do than comment on this thread especially when other people post such derogatory and needless comments.

Tappers Dad

19th Jan 2008, 19:32

Enginesuck

I understand my son Ben was out in Afghanistan helping NATO to put in place democratic structures and to allow the freedom of speech to the Afghan people which was suppressed under the Taliban.

I have exercised my right to my freedom of Speech in the press which I have every right to do.

I am very sorry that what I said seems to have upset you so greatly,
however I spoke to Martin Cannard on 7th January about his OBE and we agreed to respect each others point of view and to move on.

Perhaps as others have suggested you should do the same.