P-3s grounded

[tubby linton]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hfvd-SQ8prGbknhRp7Brq9CYPsawD8TJBCF00

[Charlie Luncher]

Guess my little trip to the sandpit is going to be a bit busy then. P8 in 2019 is quite ambitious, but then it did not mention a capable airframe, one step forward three back.:sad:
Charlie sends

[DaveyBoy]

Surely the P-8A is going to be operational long before 2019?!

I could believe those sort of timescales for MRA4, but really, another 11 years to get a mission system onto an airframe that is already in service?

[Two's in]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/mma/

The aircraft design is based on the proven fuselage of the 737-800 and the wings of the 737-900. The P-8A aircraft has increased gross weight capability compared to the 737-800.

In June 2005, Boeing announced that the design of the P-8A's wingtips has been changed from the blended winglet to a backswept wingtip. In June 2006, Stork Aerospace of the Netherlands was awarded the contract for manufacture of the backswept (or raked) wingtips.

The internal weapons bay is installed beneath the forward section of the fuselage. The 737-900-style wings are constructed with hardpoints for carrying air-to-surface missiles.

The 737 MMA will be assembled at the Boeing production facility in Renton, Washington. The 737 fuselage and tail sections will be built by Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kansas, then transferred to Renton where all the unique 737 MMA aircraft structural features will be incorporated in sequence during fabrication and assembly.

The quality and performance acceptance flight testing of the aircraft will be conducted from Renton Field and final installations and checkout of the mission system and special flight test instrumentation will be conducted at the Boeing Field. The aircraft will then ferry to Naval Air Station at Patuxent River, Maryland, for flight test.

The Preliminary Design Review (PDR) was successfully completed in November 2005. Critical design review was completed in July 2007. The first aircraft for flight test is due for delivery in 2009. Full-scale production at a rate of 12 to 18 aircraft a year is planned to commence in 2012. The planned Initial Operational Capability (IOC) date is 2013.

In July 2007, the Australian Government was given 'first pass approval' to participate in the cooperative development of the P-8A Poseidon. The P-8A would replace the Royal Australian Navy's fleet of P-3C Orion aircraft.

[GreenKnight121]

Navy Grounds Anti-Submarine Planes

"By LOLITA C. BALDOR – 7 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. Navy has grounded 39 of its surveillance, anti-submarine planes due to concerns about possible structural failures in the wings.
Ten of the four-engine propeller planes are currently deployed overseas, and Navy spokesman Cmdr. Jeff Davis said they will return to the U.S. for repairs and it has not yet been determined how or if they will be replaced.
"We are acting early, based upon engineering analysis and fleet inspections, to ground these aircraft before a problem arises," said Davis.
The Navy has a total of 161 of the P-3C Orions, and their average age is 28. It will take 18-24 months to repair each of the planes, for a total of about three years to complete the process. Those that cannot be repaired will be pulled from service.
The Orions are some of the oldest aircraft the Navy has, and they are set to be replaced in coming years by the new P-8A Poseidon jet plane. The Poseidon are expected to be operational in the Navy fleet in 2019.
Davis said it is not clear yet whether the rest of the Orions will also have to eventually be taken out of service for repairs.
The 39 were chosen based on their age, number of hours flown and other computer analysis that showed they had exceeded the amount of fatigue on the wings that the Navy considered a concern.
The Naval Air Systems Command issued a bulletin announcing the grounding on Monday, saying it was determined that the 39 aircraft were "beyond known structural limits on the lower section" of the wing."




In other words, 24% of the US Navy's P-3s are grounded... and they will be cycled through an evaluation/repair program... along with the remaining 76% (which are still flying).

Remember, a number of these P-3Cs are upgraded P-3A/Bs.


And with the P-8 starting to enter operational service in 2013 (not 2019), there should be no real problem here.


I believe the 2019 date is probably the "full-replacement date", as the USN program is for "at least 108 aircraft", and 12-18 (15 average) aircraft per year from 2012-2018 makes 84-126 (105 average) delivered by 2019.

[kiwi chick]

Gulp. :uhoh:

I whether this has any ramifications on our ones over here?

[anya mutha]

I whether this has any ramifications on our ones over here?
Don't think so, Kiwi Chick, the P-3K's were re-winged under Project Kestrel at the turn of the century.
They'll be making your knees tremble at airshows for a few years yet!:ok:

[kiwi chick]

Haha! I hope I won't be trembling too much - I'll be on one controlling the Radar!! :ok:


(I'm sure the novelty will wear off after, say... my 453rd flight... ;) )

[anya mutha]

Aah, so you're the one.

Will see you next year no doubt.

[kiwi chick]

Oooooooh. Uh oh. :suspect:

Ummmmmmm....

Aah, so you're the one.

??

[komac2]

KC -I would say anya mutha is with the fighting 5th, whenuapai.

[antipodean alligator]

Don't be too quick to label them....They normally only start swinging after they run out of throwing pi55!!;)

[PPRuNeUser0212]

"The P-8A would replace the Royal Australian Navy's fleet of P-3C Orion aircraft."

RAN with fixed wing aircraft?? Must of been a yank article, they still can't get their heads around an Air Force flying P3's

[tubby linton]

U.S. Navy Grounds Some P-3Cs


Dec 18, 2007
By Amy Butler Structural problems have prompted the U.S. Navy to ground 39 of its P-3C aircraft, ten of which are deployed to units abroad.The grounded aircraft are operating beyond known structural limits in an area of the lower section of their wing. Analysis of the problem and fixes are expected to take up to two years.
The fix will include a replacement of the structure at the trailing edge of the wing between the two engine nacelles, according to John Milliman, a spokesman for Naval Air Systems Command at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md.
Navy officials now are exploring which airframes at home base to shuffle forward to fill the gap left by the 10 deployed aircraft that are grounded.
The Navy has 161 P-3Cs in its fleet. They were designed for antisubmarine warfare, but have since been used in missions in the littorals or over land, especially to support operations in Iraq.
The Navy has funded several structural life management programs with the P-3C fleet in recent years. Discovery of this most recent problem came about as part of routine analyses of data on the fleet.
The last P-3C will be retired in 2019 when the Navy expects to achieve full operational capability with its replacement, the new Boeing 737-based P-8. Initial operational capability for the P-8 will be in 2013.
Meanwhile, the Navy continues to struggle with shortfalls in its EP-3 surveillance aircraft fleet, which was unaffected by the P-3C grounding. Industry is forming options for the Navy as it evaluates a way ahead for its EP-X program. Northrop Grumman announced Dec. 17 that it is teamed with L-3 Communications for a proposal for that mission.

[WhalePFE]

Remember, a number of these P-3Cs are upgraded P-3A/Bs.

Not true! They are all P-3C production airframes. All the P-3A/B's went to the "bone yard" and a lot of them sold.

[1771 DELETE]

The P8 with only 2 engines doesnt take my fancy but i suppose if you are spending all your life at FL300 above the sand pit, it doesnt really matter. Does it have any ASW ability?
For KC, did you do some time at ISK a couple of years ago?

[kiwi chick]

ISK?

Not unless you mean Idiots Showing Kites? Then yep, that was me. :}



Sorry, but you might have the wrong Kiwi Chick! :)

[Grey'npointy]

Interesting contrast here between the response of the USN and the UK MoD to a known flight safety-critical structural concern on one of its airframes. USN - scientifically work out all those airframes that could be at risk and ground them for repair. MoD - employ expensive contractors to carry out a risk analysis and then continue ops unabated, with 'all is ok here' press releases after 1 fatal and several near-disastrous incidents.

[Green Flash]

ISK?

Not unless you mean Idiots Showing Kites? Then yep, that was me.

Ironically, a kite surfer is occasionally seen wanging round Findhorn Bay!

[1771 DELETE]

KC
maybe i should have been more specific, about 3 years back we had a radar op come to Kinloss, 206 sqn for a couple of months - still not you?

If i remember right the kite flyer was also one of our front end drivers and even did it all the way across to Tarbet Ness.

[kiwi chick]

Nope, not me!

I don't start with RNZAF til 21st January - and I can't wait!! :}

[kiwi grey]

Ah, Blenheim in the height of summer!

The heat shimmering above the Waimea plains. The really intense heat radiating off the parade ground and seeping through your boots as the ultra-violent rays of the unshielded sun pour through the Ozone Hole above you and the sweat runs down your back sticking your shirt to your skin.

The long, warm evenings. The murmur of conversation, the quite badinage and the knowledgeable exchanges of technical insights. The smoky aroma of the winery BBQ, freshly-caught venison leg steaks grilling to perfection as you sample yet another delightful Marlborough Sauvingnon Blanc. Well, not you actually ... while the instructor NCOs enjoy this hedonistic lifestyle, you will be confined to an oven-like barrack block, shining your recalcitrant boots to a mirror-like finish before ironing knife-edge creases in pre-wrinkled shirts.
:}


Good luck, Kiwi Chick, enjoy the delights of RNZAF Woodbourne, it's not quite as bad as that!

[kiwi chick]

Hahaha!! :D :D

Great story Kiwi Grey, had me at my desk alternating between laughter and quiets sobs, haha!

Hmmmmm.... need more info on which instructors to bribe :E

[kiwi grey]

First rule: if he/she's got stripes on their sleeve, never call him/her "Sir" or "Ma'am". Use "corp", "sarge" or "flight", or you'll get a bollocking "Don't call me 'Sir', I work for a living"

Second rule: Your Steyr is a 'rifle', not a 'gun'

Third rule: Never, ever tell the recruits too much. The glorious uncertainty of it all is part of the pressure cooking which removes all traces of civilianism and turns out the finely-honed military machines which are today's Air Force.

Damn. Told you too much. Now I'll have to kill you :)


Oh, and if your profile is accurate, you'll be 'Grandma' or at least 'Mum' not only to the other recruits but some of the instructors too :eek:

[John Hill]

Woodbourne! I remember it well. I was a civvy on station about 1967. I had parked my car (a 1952 Riley 2.5 litre) outside the barracks and left the oil to drain out while I went into Blenheim on the bus to buy a filter.

That was the day some silly beggar set fire to the barrack blocks! It fact he started fires in about 3 of the blocks and the building where my car was got well ablaze.

A quick thinking person saw my car had keys in it and they started it up to tow other cars out of the way.

By the time I got back the engine was in a very sorry state! But they did not let me down, next 'sports afternoon' they took it across the road to the engine shop, ground and balanced the crank, made new main bearings, honed the bores, fitted the new pistons I had bought and by meal time it was running again.:ok:

[Blacksheep]

...you'll be 'Grandma'... I remember 'Grandpa' Mcgee. An ancient old crock of nearly 29 years. It was he who took the squadron cherry boy 'Mini-Dope' on the bones in Penang during an Exercise Moonflower to Butterworth; an experience that turned the poor wee fellow into a raving sex fiend ever after.

Its good advice to beware of old troopers - but then isn't it you they have to beware of kc?

[Avtrician]

Hmmm.

The P-8A would replace the Royal Australian Navy's fleet of P-3C Orion aircraft.

First Ive heard of Navy P-3Cs. Up to last week The RAAF was driving them, the Navy only has Choppers.:rolleyes::cool:

[1771 DELETE]

Definately not you then,sorry for the question.
She did enjoy her 4 months but ran up a huge overdraft trying to keep up with the Brit drinking habits.
Do the Kiwis still drink purple death? I remember one Fincastle where i actually got to enjoy it - needless to say i was the party crew and didnt have to worry about bottle to throttle.
If anybody in Kiwi land runs into "Erik" from Kinloss, say hello and tell him the escapee who lives in Maine was asking after him.

[Charlie Luncher]

1771, are you really really old? Hope you are enjoying the snow will have a cold beer and think of you as we sit on the the beach:ok:.
KC most of you instructors are softening up with old age which covers most of 5 SQN:} Anya new toy must be coming soon if the boys in USA have been working and not hitting Hooters too much, might pop over for a bit of winter fun soon.
Charlie sends

[1771 DELETE]

Hi Charlie
Your right, its bloody freezing and the snow is getting deeper by the day, running out of places to put it now.
Hope all is well with you down there, have a large one on me in a couple of days time:)

[Samuel]

Before your time Kiwichick, but the RNZAF P3s were structurally modified some time ago. New wings and tailplanes I recall.

[Ivan Rogov]

Google is your friend :8
http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/orion.html
Replaced the Sunderland!
IIRC a P-3K eng told me that they got the new wings off the end of the ROK P-3 production line.
The spams obviosly don't know how to produce a new MPA. Surely it would be better to buy some 30 year old 737's, "zero life" the airframe, put new wings on and then get a few different companies involved to complicate the proccess, then drastically reduce the order just to keep within budget. They haven't even renamed it yet! How about MMA 2012? :p

[Going Boeing]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/images/scorpene1.jpg
DCNS Delivers Royal Malaysian Navy's 1st Submarine

Today, DCNS delivered the Royal Malaysian Navy's first-ever submarine. This on-time delivery follows Malaysia's decision to set up a submarine force comprising two Scorpene-type conventional-propulsion boats.


(Toulon, January 27, 2009) -- The Royal Malaysian Navy took formal delivery of Scorpene submarine KD Tunku Abdul Rahman at today's official handover in Toulon. The guests of honour included RMN Chief of Staff Admiral Dato'Sri Aziz Hj Jaafar.

KD Tunku Abdul Rahman is the first of two Scorpene submarines ordered by Malaysia in June 2002 and developed jointly by DCNS and Spanish naval shipbuilder Navantia. In addition to the submarines proper, the contract calls for associated logistics and training.

This major milestone for the RMN follows the completion, in late December 2008, of KD Tunku Abdul Rahman's final sea trials demonstrating remarkable operational and combat system capabilities. These trials included successful firings of Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes and missiles.

KD Tunku Abdul Rahman is scheduled to arrive in Malaysia early in the second half of 2009. The second of the series, KD Tun Razak, is scheduled for delivery in late 2009. Manned by Malaysian crews of just 31, the boats offer an endurance of 45 days for a displacement of 1,550 tonnes and a length overall of 67.5 metres.

Scorpene represents the state of the art in submarine design and construction and benefits from the latest technologies developed for nuclear-powered classes operated by the French Navy, particularly as regards acoustic discretion and combat system performance. Excellent endurance makes the Scorpene one of the few medium-displacement designs suitable for extended ocean patrol duties. The modular design can also be readily tailored to each customer's specific mission profiles and other requirements.

Source : DCNS

SSK Scorpene Attack Submarine - Naval Technology (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/)

[GreenKnight121]

Pssssttt.

A little clue for the clueless... Indonesia is the one Australia is worried about.

Malaysia is friendly.

[Yeller_Gait]

Greenknight,

To be honest, any submarine is fair game for an MPA crew; a kill is a kill and all that. Thanks also for the reminder about the neighbours as well.

Y_G