Future Lynx A Rip Off?

[fantaman]

Copied this over from another forum as I thought it would be of some interest to you all.

Sikorsky were recently awarded a contract for a new upgraded version of the Blackhawk helicopter. 537 airframes were ordered at a cost of $7.4 Billion USD. With support and spares packages the cost goes up to $11.8 Billion USD.

Taking the latter figure, this works out at a unit cost of approx $21m USD per aircraft - a little over £10m at the current exchange rate.

For not much more money than we are proposing to spend on approx 70 Future Lynx aircraft to be split between the Army and Royal Navy, the US Army are able to get nearly 8 times as many airframes.

Are we being bumped by Augusta Westland?

[Evalu8ter]

Can't be, the DIS would never let that happen, could it????

There's more to RW costs than just purchasing them. We couldn't afford to crew and run 500 UH-60s unless we seriously got out of the FJ/CVF/FRES world in a big, big way.

That said, 150ish Black / Sea Hawks would probably make more sense than FLynx, but, they ain't made in Somerset. Now, hows about some WS-70s...?

Anyway, FLynx might not be that safe at all (see other threads), and the money won't go into more RW!

[Jackonicko]

Let me guess, more 'pearls' from Lewis Page.....?

[Evalu8ter]

Jacko, for once I agree with you! Stark, unattributed figures like this are totally spurious in a UK context. We have an industry to support, and a middle-size military to feed. That is the political, social & economic reality.

FMS UH-60 no thanks (reluctantly), Westland WS-70 with UK sovereignty & kit - yes please!

[minigundiplomat]

Why is the industry ours to support?

I resent the notion that unless the MOD buys overpriced, half finished and normally late arriving products from the South West of England, the economy will collapse and the world will stop turning.

Either they can offer a high quality, value for money product, delivered on time and with good aftersales service, or they can't. If they can't, the MOD propping them up is only delaying the inevitable.

[Rakshasa]

Trouble is, the production/refit line set up costs are pretty much the same wether you're buying seven, seventy or seven hundred.

Let's say set up is £50 million and your cabs have a standalone price of £25 each.

10 cost £30 mil each.

50 cost £26 mil each.

500 cost £25 mil each.

Airframes get cheaper the more of 'em you buy. So the quoted figures are apples and oranges comparisons.


As for wether AW are giving us value for money....

[Jackonicko]

If you listened to the "buy it off the shelf as it is, from the yanks" crowd, then our AH-64s would certainly have been cheaper. But they'd also have been a deal less useful in Afghanistan, and the price would all have been in $, with little or no benefit to the UK economy, and the exchequer would have recovered nothing in tax, as it has done from WHL and from the WHL workers who built the WAH-64Ds.

And while US manufacturers sometimes produce better kit, American isn't always best. S-92 vs Merlin, for example.

[Lazer-Hound]

Note that the US purchase includes:

1. Relatively cheap, basic UH60's for the US Army

2. Not quite so cheap MH60S's for the US Navy; and

3. Really rather expensive MH60R's for the USN.

Wonder what the actual cost of a 'basic' UH60 is?

[Front Seater]

Jack,

I have no idea who you write for and to be honest apart from some very selective productions/articles I genuinely have a real phobia with journos/media that are trying to put either their own hype on a story or some other spin.

But on this one, as someone that has benefitted from the UK going down the UK Westlands route (lets have a look at which DAS our US colleagues are now retrofitting) - and also lets look at the Rolls Royce engines - and then lets look at the support that is being given to ensure that we do fight the capability.

I am certainly no fan of industry - and they sure do take their slice in profits - but from the UK AH experience I am a satisified operator doing the business as we speak.

If we dont keep our own UK industry alive then at best we will be driven into a monopolised Eurocopter buy (because it is European and because AgustaWestlands is included in NHi) and at worst when/if/maybe we actually do need to stand on our 2 feet then all of the skill sets will be gone.

The key is to ensure that whatever is procured it belongs to the UK - and the UK can play around with and bolt on what they like, at short notice, without having to go to a non-UK party to ask permission (and be charged millions for the privelledge).

As to the Future Lynx/Blackhawk debate - how many years have we been doing this? Ask the politicians, and airships and Colonel Blimps what they want to do with the airframe and then make your choice. If it is ISTAR/ISR to cue other assets - Lynx will do just fine. If it is tactical troop lift, then Blackhawks will do just fine. If you are trying to be a jack of all trades then always someone will have to compromise.

This is where I am a realist and if Westlands had the nounce they would be covering all bases with a multitude of options - ranging from Future Lynx through to Blackhawks - with a 1001 re-roling options inbetween (ranging from a pseudo Sea Hawk through to a pseudo HH-60) - same fleet, same cockpit, same training pipeline, just bolt on the extras - plug and play - tools in the golf bag and all the other Chumley Warner sayings that seem to be used by those that actually mean we dont have the cash to do it properly so we will do the best cuff that we can.

P.S. Please please please - before anyone buys anything and starts talking capability, please can they make sure it flys where it is being asked to fly. No point in having a shiney new helicopter if the whole design philosophy was based upon to +15 at Sea Level - reality ain't like that and I am sure that some of our European manufactures may be sorely lacking when asked to prove what the true operational envelope is of the aircraft that they are marketing. Do the figures boys - nothing worst than sending an aircraft fleet home because it is too hot or too high - and nothing worst than having an aircraft designed to lift 17 or so, and only being able to lift 6 when it counts. Surely modern technology and the design boffins must surely be aware of this?

[NURSE]

for the navy is future sea lynx a good option? looking at the success of the previous sea lynx and the Australian problems with seasprite I would hope we have more luck with future lynx.
For the army though is it a good platform or would a mix of AW 109's and AW139's not be better for the laison/light transport role?

[spheroid]

Why is the industry ours to support?

I resent the notion that unless the MOD buys overpriced, half finished and normally late arriving products from the South West of England, the economy will collapse and the world will stop turning.

Either they can offer a high quality, value for money product, delivered on time and with good aftersales service, or they can't. If they can't, the MOD propping them up is only delaying the inevitable.


Because that is their job. It is not the MOD supporting British Industry, its the Government...and that is their job. Why should the tax payers money (your money and my money) help to provide some yank in the U.S. with a job and financial security?

[green granite]

Besides if you close all the UK defence industry down where would all the retiring AVMs etc. go? :rolleyes:

[NURSE]

wasn't the blackhawk looked at as a potential Wessex replacement? and if its so good why are the Aussies buying NH90 and not more Blackhawk?
From what i've heard and seen the Irish are doing very well with the AW139.

Besides which why should we keep Americans in jobs.

[minigundiplomat]

Besides which why should we keep Americans in jobs.
Why should the tax payers money (your money and my money) help to provide some yank in the U.S. with a job and financial security?

Why not? If the kit works. If the UK defence industry can come up with a better value good quality product, they will get my support.

Look at what is going on in the world. My view is very much that I would rather see a guy in the SW of England out of a job, than a British Squaddie/Airman in a box.

I suggest those who champion the UK Defence industry are probably not Austin Rover drivers.

[NURSE]

is US defence procurment run on a best kit basis?

nope it has to be a US product or manufactured in the USA! and some of the US kit I played with in the gulf was absolute rubbish

[minigundiplomat]

F15 F16 F18 C130 C17 UH-1 UH-60 MH53 CH47 AC130

All of the above are best of class (for their time) and available off the shelf.

Nimrod, Harrier, Hawk, TSR2 (standing by for incoming), Belfast

All world class leaders of their time.

Nimrod 2000, F3, EH101, A400M?

The recent projects just don't hit the mark. The Typhoon is an impressive aircraft as I have said, but it is late and overbudget.
The Merlin is proving itself, but was slow to start and will never be what the customer wanted ie: The Army.

Ask the taxpayers if they want the kudos of a second rate defence industry, and some secured jobs at Yeovil, or whether they want truckloads of tax saved by buying an equally capable product off the shelf. I dare you!

[Lyneham Lad]

Nimrod, Harrier, Hawk, TSR2 (standing by for incoming), Belfast
All world class leaders of their time.

Spot the deliberate mistake in the first line............

If it was not deliberate then cough, splutter. :eek:

LL

[NURSE]

Yes for a long time from the end of ww2 the only country with the R&D budget was the US now its a much more level playing field.

[SARREMF]

MiniGun

I think your missing the point. the reason the price looks so attractive is that you have to buy it off the shelf. The MOD rarely do. they tinker, they change and the cost goes through the roof - or, they sit in hangars!

If, you had your way and we had no SW factory, do you think the price would still be competitive? Or, do you think someone might be tempted to put the price up because there was no competition? Then when you look at your £1 pound-wasted-on-defence and where it went how much of it actually came back into the economy? None? So now the price is the price? So in reality, with shrinking budgets, AW actually probably stops you flying MIL 8's. And lets face it, despite the safety record and the string for seat belts, lack of intercom etc, they are a good solid cab. Actually far better than the Blackhawk. So why not them instead? How about a few Helix for the RN?

Or is it that you just want American?

[busdriver02]

Another thing to consider is spares production. The Blackhawk is a currently produced aircraft, with a large pool of parts availability. When you guys deploy to a joint environment, if you're flying the same aircraft that the Aussies and we Yanks are flying, you can always "borrow" parts from us to keep your machines flying. This is already the norm for the Aussie 47's flying in the 'Stan. The real question is what do you want your new birds to do? I ask since the 60 excels at being the super Huey. When you're moving less than 12 troops over less than 100nm, it is second to none. Once you start throwing all sorts of special operations equipment on it that you run into weight and power problems.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"Or is it that you just want American?"

Nope he, like all SH and AAC types who are at the muck and bullets end, unlike so many who post here are being let down hugely by "the system", and they simply want something that works NOW...............not much to ask is it :rolleyes:

[Mr-AEO]

Of course it isn't too much to ask! But, taking REMF's Mi-8 example. Are the users really so happy taking a cab that has no mission system, integrated DAS, string for seatbelts, etc, etc into battle?? I very much doubt it!! So we tinker, beacuse we are asked to and because it makes the aircraft safer and more capable; obviously this costs ££.
The phrase, 'can't have your cake and eat it springs to mind'.

Re: FLynx. You just can't compare the prices as stated. Some include support/training/GBTE etc, some don't. If someone could provide some qualified costs for the US procurement then we could compare apples with apples.

PS - I've seen the Op comparison of UH-60 Vs BRH and some stat's just didn't look good for the FLynx (quite poo actually, especially in ability to deal with weight growth.)

[NURSE]

The SH community are being let down not by the products more by the supply ethos that has recently been brought into the British military. Just in time works reasonably well in industry as it isn't tied up in beauracratic knots by the civil service but is useless for the things we are trying to do with our defence forces. The days of expensive holdings of large numbers of spare parts will have to return or dramaticall streamiline the procurement process which will mean losing value for money.

As to the argument well we're in ops today with countries flying Blackhawk and Chinook yes and what happens tomorrow when we're flying Blackhawk and Chinook and the people we work with are all flying NH90?

We need to procure the best available for our budget and maximise the involvement of British industry as Sikorsky will offer Blackhawk at a cheap price to take westlands out of the game then watch the prices rise for spares and updates and Will the US give us all the code access we need to update or adapt them?

[minigundiplomat]

Mate, get a ticket to Kandahar.

The people we are working with are using Chinook/Blackhawk/Pavehawk. There isn't an NH90 in sight.
The EU aren't renowned for sending their choppers on package deals, and the only country with the balls to do so, the Cloggies, are operating Chinook/Cougar.

A lot of you are the problem. You sit on the computer pontificating about the best helicopters to use, writing articles blah blah blah.

I spend my life around Helicopters, every day, most nights. I know what works, and what won't.

Most of all, I listen to the customer on the ground. Maybe a few more people should.


Thank you Seldom

[Turkeyslapper]

wasn't the blackhawk looked at as a potential Wessex replacement? and if its so good why are the Aussies buying NH90 and not more Blackhawk?

I am pretty sure most in the ADF wanted Blackhawk however part of the MRH (NH 90) contract included an Australian assembly line (read jobs) and an Australian EC120 or 130 assembly line (read more Jobs).....politics!!

[NURSE]

Now why do we keep having to rehash the other things involved in defence procurment. Factors to be included are what benifits the whole country not just the armed forces. If sikorsky becomes the main helecopter supplier to the UK armed forces what happens to the employees of agusta-westlands and their subcontractors?
westlands and their sub contractors go bust the employees need either new jobs or retraining or lots of taxpayers money to provide some form of employment in somerset. That tax money is diverted from somewhere (Probably the defence budget) so the forces have less money to spend on new toys.
With the loss of the high paying technology jobs tax revenues fall. less tax money to spend on defence more defence jobs lost both service people and supporting industries and incrementally less and less money becomes available.
Not an answer to the imediate problems but to procure blackhawks you wouldn't see them till at least 2015

[Compressorstall]

This thread is turning into a mix of a teach-in on UK Defence Policy and UK economics. Yes, it would be nice to have a fleet of Blackhawks/Merlins/Chinooks etc parked outside and ready to go (when did you last see a big SH formation in the UK?), but it isn't going to happen. Firstly, the UK committed itself to retaining the ability to produce helicopters - cue Westlands and secondly, Westlands plays to its audience - they know we only buy small amounts of helicopters and they don't plan on going bust do they? Westlands are going to look to recover their costs on the small buy of UK helicopters - for example 22 Merlins for the RAF and 44 Merlins for the RN. The aircraft are thus more expensive and the hand-wringing members of the IPTs who were gobsmacked by the costs then save money on spares - can any one see a flaw in the plan?

[NURSE]

compressorstall I have to agree with you we have to bite certain bullets and if we want to keep a helecopter manufacturing capabiliy and push costs down we either need to force westlands into a merger with eurocopter or sikorsky.
Or invest in the next generation of support helecoper like the aw149 and draw up a specification that will beat any of its competitors and have the world beating its way to our dorr to buy the best on the market.
but food for thought how many of the current support helecopter fleet problems could have been solved if the govt had invested the money in spares instead of northern rock?
And maybe if there had been some comitment to fighting terrorism in the 1990's the SH fleet might have had WS60's operating in 72Sqn. But minigundiplomat I don't need to go to kandahar to witness how hard SH tries to support I witnessed it for 30 years in Northern Ireland and am now alot more cynical when it comes to fighting terrorism for the Americans who denied support to our war on terror and interfered to the point were the only course open was to sell out to those same terrorists and treat them better than the service men and women who fought against them. And have taken part in some of this govts military misadventures. And now living and working in the real world understand how little the people of this country actually care as long as it doesn't affect their house prices or there is an acceptable level of violence or their taxes aren't going up.

[minigundiplomat]

Nurse, I applaud your sincerity, but you are slightly naive. Economics depends upon competition, and buying inferior products from a home grown source in order to ensure it's survival doesn't work in the long run.

Think back to the 80's, and remember all the Sherpas and Montego's in MT? Didn't help Austin Rover much in the long run.

There has to be healthy competition. Outside of the UK, how many other countries operate the Mk3 Merlin? 3 or 4?

How many operate the Blackhawk, and how many will operate the NH90? Everyone else pretty much. Why?

Well either the Merlin is a very expensive top of the range model they can't afford, or they know it's ok at best and overpriced.

Only they know what they based the decision to shop elsewhere, but I can make an educated guess.


Exchange drinks last night. Not well this morning.

[NURSE]

Am i niave but if you look closley at the list of Blackhawk users many have been bought using military aid credits from the US and restricted to US products so a fair way of selling helecopters? Great way of inflating the sales. Merlin isn't in the same class as Blackhawk and really the Blackhawk isn't in the same class as Puma or Lynx either it would fall between both. However the RAF were offered Westland built Blackhawks back in the 80's-90's and so where the AAC the RAF declined them because they were happy with Puma/Wessex and the AAC wanted Lynx AH9 (what was the point of thease?) But also money was tight at this time.
If the Blackhawk was so good why has the USAF been trying to get rid of them since they were introduced and why has the USMC resisted buying them?
on chinook c-sar thread the comments on the Merlin are very enlightening that the only thing wrong according to one poster was lack of power. And he also comments on the Blackhawk as well.
Yes compition is a good thing and in open compition both Merlin and NH90 are doing very. Merlin is in service with UK, Portugal, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Japan and the USMC as Marine 1. I also think its on order for morroco or algeria. NH90 France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Australia, New Zealand,Greece,Netherlands and probably a few more. It will be interesting to see how AW139 does and AW149. AW139 has only entered service with the Irish but they appear to be very please with it. Now as to British Leyland products do you remember a vehicle called the Land Rover and a Truck called the Bedford all were leyland products we still use them.
If as you seam to wish sikorsky to take over all helecopter production and it becomes a monoploy will it still produce good helecopters?

[minigundiplomat]

Nurse,

if you had ever driven a Bedford from Cranwell to Otterburn, you would realise that yes we have a lot, but it's far from great.
My point was that all helicopters have merits, even the Merlin. However, we should not be procuring aircraft on the basis of what is good for UK industry. We should be procuring them on what is best for Cpl Bloggs and his patrol on the outskirts of Musa Qala.

[AHQHI656SQN]

NURSE.
I think that those forces who haven't been satisfied with that aircraft are few and far between.
USAF, from the beginning they wanted more from that aircraft than it was ever intended; hence it has a poor reputation. Without an upgraded engine/transmission package it was always going to struggle in certain parts of the world, doing the type of missions that had traditionally been done by the Daddy, MH53 :ugh:.
The USMC wouldn’t have bought UH60 to replace the venerable Huey for as long as the Snake was the Attack helicopter of choice. Given that Apache was never intended to go on ship the Snake was always going be the obvious winner. Therein USMC with Huey and Cobra commonality of parts, engines etc :D. The US Army has, to a lesser degree, the same with AH64 and UH60 :O.
For utility with survivability JHC will look for a long time to find a better package than UH60, for either Puma or Lynx replacement :ok:. One issue with the Lynx replacement is it will have to integrate a ISTAR C2 capability; UH 60 can do C2 in spades, but a recce helicopter it will never profess to be.:=

[tucumseh]

A view from another side.


Companies like Westland don’t just design helicopters on the off chance they’ll find a customer. They do market research which, in practice, means listening long and hard to what potential customers want (and in the UK, that’s the MoD primarily). My involvement with Merlin finished in 1987 but my recollection is that the sponsor (DOR(Sea)) was over the moon at getting exactly what he wanted from the air vehicle. That is, a dual role helicopter – ASW primary and Commando secondary. That this has changed over the years is not the fault of either side.

As a project manager, I can honestly say I have not once been screwed over by Westland. Not even an attempt. If you knew how contracts are costed and, especially, post-costed, you’d realise it’s simply not worth it. It would surprise you how often they say “Here’s some money back, we found a better way that saved us money”. Time and again they have pulled both MoD and their (MoD’s) preferred suppliers out of the deep stuff. I would happily have them as prime on any job, something I can’t say about some of the big boys. Keep the politics out and beancounters away, and they deliver every time.

Buying from the US may sound attractive and, yes, they’ll supply at a good price. This reflects economy of scale, not a Westland rip-off. But over 80% (and rising) through-life costs are support. Once we’ve got the kit, be it aircraft or equipment, we take our place in the queue. To many aviation companies in the US, the residents of some remote townships represent a bigger customer base than MoD UK! In a commercial sense, we’re nobodies and are treated accordingly. In a technical sense, they take unilateral design decisions, or exclude you because you’re a small minority, which means you either stump up for something you don’t want or need, or your design goes off at a tangent and is not maintained or supported. There is a cost-effective solution to this, but MoD don’t fund it and want to ditch the process. Another story.

Just trying to be fair to a company who has never let me down. There’s a lot to be said for that being the only selection criteria.

[minigundiplomat]

It's nice to get an in depth view from a different angle. Thanks tucumseh.

The economy of bulk you refer to, and the importance of being high up on the list for ongoing support is spot on.

The Chinook is a prime example of this, with the UK being the second largest operator after the US DoD. We have always enjoyed good support from Boeing Vertol.

Maybe this bulk buy would have been better spent on one airframe rather than mixed Puma/Merlin fleet. As it is, we are down the list for two manufacturers, three when FLynx comes onstream.

[NURSE]

Another issue comes in at specfication planning the MoD can't just say we will buy from company x as this is illegal unger EU compition rules it can get round this by drawing up very tight spefications. I would also sugest if the Mod had added crash survivability to the same or higher spec than the Blackhawk the winner would have to factor that in.
I do agree about Flynx. The naval version yes is following on a good piece of kit but the land version leaves alot to be desired could this have been sorted by better specifcation? And the governments desire to restrict the number of types in service to allow for bigger buys of spare parts and reductions of scale. I would also sugest there would be some ownership debates about Blackhawks replacing the Lynx and Puma even in a "Joint" helecopter command. And as AHQHI656SQN says it isn't a starter for a recce helecopter.
Minigundiplomat if JHC was to go down the route of Blackhawk which I do see the case (but not the only one ) would it be of the shelf or an update of the S-70-19? would it be fitted with RTM332 engines and UK avionics as other uk helecopters?
tucumseh as someone who has experienced the inside of the industry could Westland revive the Blackhawk lisence and build in the UK along the lines of the WAH64 and would they be able to export them?
And how long would it take to go from selection to inservice? How much money would be wasted in introducing and supporting another type in service and how much export potential would be lost?
Personally I would like to see Agusta-Westland design a helecopter in the AW149 with hgher spec than the blackhawk/NH90 and be so good that it would seriously challange sikorsky and give them a real headache in the Blackhawk replacement compition.

[tucumseh]

Nurse

My apologies but I can’t answer your questions because I don’t know – perhaps only those at the top in Westland and MoD do, if they have considered the issues. The only thing I’d say is that much would depend on the terms of the license, and point out that very often these licenses are procured at the insistence of MoD, who pay for them under separate contract.

As for how much money would be wasted, I’m sure you know that this is formal MoD policy and be assured they will try to maximise performance.

[minigundiplomat]

Simple Answer?

28/33/230/78 Re-Equipped with off the shelf Blackhawk, retro fitted for H+H.

28/78 Merlins go to the RN as a Sea King replacement with a further option to purchase. (Commonality of stores with the Pingers?)

Further Sqn formed at Odiham when the Mk3 arrives (Aircrew only to provide decrease in long standing commitments per Sqn)

Army to get what they feel appropriate as a recce platform. Kiowa?


Right then, just world peace and a cure for HIv....

[Green Flash]

Army to get what they feel appropriate as a recce platform. Kiowa
OH64? (commonality etc) in a 0/A-10 stylee?

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

So your solution to a shortfall in SH lift is to take the 22 (soon to be 28) Merlins that were designed for and are now proving themselves in the Battlefield Support role and give them to the NAVY!!! Wow you're a genius:ugh:
'Commonality of stores with the Pingers' is being sorted by joint deep servicing down in cider country. The most frustrating thing is that the RN got 44 Mk1s to start with!

[minigundiplomat]

A walk down the flight line at KAF reveals line upon line of BlackHawks. Ive yet to see a Merlin.
The Merlin is doing a good job in Iraq, albeit a very flat part of Iraq. If there were any serious hills in S Iraq, I don't think you'd be telling me what a great job there doing.
The RN needs a replacement for the Junglies. A few Carson Blades aren't going to see them through another 25 years.
But then do the FAA need any helicopters? Theres very little of a fleet, the RM are always asking for Wokkas and they spend very little time at sea.

[Rakshasa]

While I think Merlin for Junglie, ASaC etc is good idea, I'm not so sure pulling them from RAF inventory is wise. Even if you sent everyone qualified to bolster Dark Blue ops so as to avoid wasted training and hours, you'd just be pilling more strain on the other fleets.

[minigundiplomat]

A lot of the aircrew for 78 Sqn are RN anyway. Speed up the throughput of RN as RAF are posted onto other types (which all have manning deficiencies). Transition 28/78 to RN manning over 2 years and then rename them 845/846.

[NURSE]

Ahhhh now we see minigundiplomat's agenda. Strip the army of assets and funding to give to the RAF and increase the light blue empire.
We were discussing the Flynx an army/navy project yes the Ah version will be in Joint helecopter command but as we see the "Joint" in JHC and most other things means RAF empire building.
The US has operated Blackhawk, Apache and Chinook as an integrated force under Army command and army operated for years and maybe as part of the longer term planning of support it should be examined as the way ahead in the long term.
Now Merlin is already operated in the maritime assualt role by the Italian Navy so this shouldn't be a huge problem for seaking replacements. As to Puma well is Blackhawk big enough to take over from it or will the cabin bulk out sooner. Blackhawk is an excellent idea to replace Lynx AH9 and with the AH60 variant carrying Hellfire it would be a useful force multiplyer in the non apache equipped sqns and a UK modified version with the same engines as the apache would integrate well. Could Flynx serve in the recce/laison role? and the light transport role move to Blackhawk? yet again the RAF looses track of the roles lynx operates in.
as to a way forward in the next 5-10yrs
845/847 Merlin HC5
846 Apache/Blackhawk/Flynx
772 Merlin HC5/HAR4

AAC
Flynx Laison/Recce
Blackhawk Laison/LT Transport
Apache in gunship role

RAF
Chinook HC2 Heavy transport
Merlin HC3 28/33 Transport
Merlin HC4 84

Longer term Chinook HC4 ie CH47F for AAC
and strataegic Helecopter force Merlin SF support transfares to FAA along with the land based variants. RAF looses support helecopter role

[minigundiplomat]

Your seeing an agenda that isn't there. As for stripping the Army, I said above we should give the Army whatever they feel is the best recce platform. I don't see how that is stripping them?

As far as my own fleet, I recommended no increases other than the existing conversion of Mk3 and increase in aircrew.

The Sea Kings need replacing, the Merlin was designed to go to sea. The RN get 2 Sqns of newish airframes.(Incidentally, the same ones you keep raving about).

The RAF replace the aging (and overdue) Puma, and the Merlins ceded to the RN with Blackhawk.

I don't see what the light blue make out of this that the other two services don't?

Time to stop watching the X Files?

[NURSE]

Because Minigundiplomat you like many other RAF support helo types don't see the full role of Lynx it is also ment to be used as a laison and recce helo yes but its also ment to be used as a light transport. Moving things like small patrols, op's , FOO and FAC teams and in the old days Milan and Javelin SAM teams it was always to small dimensionally and power wise for this.
The Blackhawk would be more useful in this role and because it is more capable as well it would improve the flexibility of the army.

[minigundiplomat]

No I think it is you that do not see the division. AAC operate AH, anything that blows stuff up ie: TOW Lynx now the Apache. SH operate anything that carries stuff. That is the happy medium and both services are happy. It is handy that the Lynx can conduct FAC drops, and especially VIPTAX tasks, especially as sending a 20 tonne helicopter for a Brigadier is a bit of a waste, but we shouldnt be choosing an airframe based on that spec.

If the AAC want BlackHawk as a recce platform, I hope they get it. It would be further commonality of stores. But if you read the posts above, you will see that many don't.

If the AAC want future Lynx, I hope they get it. My whole thrust throughout this thread has been that the Services should get what they need, not what Wastelands are offering.

I have planned and executed entire battle group airlifts, and so I know exactly what the SH force needs. Some elements may not agree, but my opinion is informed.

I don't know exactly what the AAC want, as I am not an operator. But I think they should get EXACTLY what they want.

I hope, that is clear enough even for you NURSE!

[HEDP]

I think that the AAC would like ownership of SH, nice of you to endorse that for them!

[minigundiplomat]

Im sure if you could rustle up 600 or so aircrew and a fifteen hundred licensed engineers, it probably would be yours by now. But you can't !

There was a scheme when the Apache entered service to offer JT's/SAC's/Cpl's the rank of Sgt if they transferred to the REME. Remember how many takers there were? None.

How many people do you think would just say, 'OK, I'm now in the Army'?

I think you know the answer?

[NURSE]

Minigundilomat obviously the Lynx AH9 and the Bell 212's in Brunei and Belize have completley passed you by then never desiged to carry TOW and used as a Light transport. Maybe tomorrow the AAC couldn't rustle up the aircrew or the REME the engineers but 10-15 years down the line if it was planned properley.
The US army with its huge Helecopter force functions well and there is no reason the AAC shouldn't be able to either or do it better and I would sugest it would integrate into the army chain much better as well. And the Army and Land forces are the principle users.
But then of course it keeps lots of RAF officers employed not only flying but supporting.

[minigundiplomat]

Have a bit of courage in your convictions then, and crack on.

Funny, in this world of lean etc, this idea has never occured before. Oh yes, the perennial debate. SH to the Army, Rest of the RAF to the RN.

Having rambled over and over about the importance of UK defence industry, you have now found a new drum to bang. There is already a thread open under this heading.

I can't really be arsed to spend Xmas arguing the toss. If the AAC taking over SH was such a good idea, JHC would have implemented it, or at least floated the idea over the last Cash Starved 7 years.

If it decides thats the way ahead, thats fine, but it will happen without me. Ill be a long way away spending my pension.

[Failed_Scopie]

I have heard a rumour that Future Lynx will be cancelled in the New Year. Being a non-naval man, I cannot comment for good or ill on the implications for the RN, but as an Army-man (although not AAC), I can see that there might be other alternatives. However, knowing the lack of foresight displayed by Messers Brown and Browne, I can there being future RW ISTAR platform for the AAC. Would anyone care to comment?

[Evalu8ter]

There are some other issues here.
The primary driver for AAC Flynx is "Find". However, the MoD, including the Army, have spent stacks of cash, under UOR, buying UAVs to do the "Find Role" at a fraction of the cost of new helicopters. The Treasury might therefore point out that the manned RW ISTAR role is redundant (remember, they are not Operators) and, as stated before, we cannot justify a Colonel's taxi in this financial climate. If Flynx was cut it would leave the AAC as AH and D4K plus the COMO 212/412s. With the reduction in pilots watch for a pro rata cut in training.
The RN needed a Lynx size platform for the older DD/FFs that couldn't cope with a Merlin. In the future the withdrawl of the remaining T42/T22s (are there any T22s left?) to be replaced by T23/T45 et al will cure the problem (I believe)and a multi-role Merlin could fill the gap (though it is big & expensive).
Ergo, the rationale for Flynx is based, increasingly, on two concepts. One is the maintainance of the AAC at something like todays size and the other is the desire to keep Westlands going. I do believe that the price that Finmeccanica paid GKN for the rest of the company was heavily influenced by the Flynx programme - I'd imagine that they'd be looking for some reparation if it was binned.
The worrying thing is that, unlike the Commanche cancellation, not a penny of any FLynx savings is likely to be recapitalised into other RW assets. Let's hope they decide to cut something else; any suggestions?

[Rakshasa]

Hmm good point, and I was half convinced part of the wobblyness over FLynx was AW wanting to push the 149...

[Failed_Scopie]

I'm assuming that as a 'Find' platform, FLynx is also envisaged to possess an armed recce and C2 function. Is the proposed mix of Apache and FLynx intended to mirror the USMC's AH-1Z and UH-1Y fleet in terms of functionality? Again, please excuse my ignorance being non-AAC, but as an Army Officer, I really should know more about Aviation.

[mutleyfour]

Given the present poorly percieved climate that the Labour Party is experiencing, combined with the general public now seemingly aware of the lack of military equipment that "Salami Slicing" of the "options" is far more likely to happen.

[Not_a_boffin]

My two-pennorth -

RN/RM don't want the Merlin HC3 or 3A for that matter. They don't fold and therefore can't be easily operated from ships. I know that CHF spend most of their time these days on pure land ops, but a fleet of 20-odd a/c that can't be deployed on a maritime platform is not going to aid their flexibility.

I don't believe there's another Merlin HMA buy in the pipeline (at least not at any sensible unit price), so a decision to bin Flynx (dark blue) is going to have major repercussions on the FAA ability to support small ships flights. 815 / 702 are currently supposed to provide ac for 18-20 DD/FF plus IPS, whereas the Merlin force is (nominally) supposed to do two big ship dipper squadrons, plus small ships flights for the 2087 fitted T23s, plus RFAs as necessary. From a surviving force of 42 airframes (less after CSP) I think they'd struggle to do the entire DD/FF fleet and in any case, why use a 15 tonne monster with no ASuW capability on a non-ASW platform?

Don't get me wrong - if hunting subs is your game (and yes they're still there - ask Messrs Putin & Dinnerjacket) accept no substitute, Merlin is your bird. If (by some miracle) funds are found for FRC maritime (whatever the programme is called now) then get some folding Merlin along the lines of the Italian variant, but it's simply overkill in some small ship situations.

Still, the way we're going at the minute, we'll run out of ships before MoD makes a decision....

[Two's in]

One of the more obvious flaws in the FLynx role for the AAC is the "Find" capability. Other than a spiffy glass cockpit and a laser designator, it has very little capability improvement over the current Lynx. The problem is you now have a platform with the most basic of equipment "finding" the targets for the "fix and destroy" Apaches that - quite rightly - have every bell and whistle going. So now you have recce missions relying on other people's intel or the Mk 1 eyeball looking for targets that a platform with Radar, RFI, HIDAS, TADS/PNVS, impressive stand off RF and Laser weapons will come and kill. If the threat is low-tech that may not be as much of a problem as if it is high-tech, shoot back, bad guys.

Why wouldn't you employ at least the same level of sensor capability in finding a target as you would destroying it? That's why FLynx does not match the "find" role, but probably will make a good utility aircraft (again).

[Evalu8ter]

Good comments - some snapshots back.
Merlin Mk1 currently has no ASuW capability. However, fitting it with a viable DAS, M3M/M134 fit and Guided Missile (Hellfire / Brimstone et al) + seeker/targetting pod is quite achievable. As for the number of airframes, though CSP I believe fixes 32 to Mk2 standard, the rest could be re-roled to the T23/T25 fleet as required. Remember, we are going to lose more DD/FFs in the future so Grey Lynx will not need to be replaced on a 1 to 1 basis. In addition, for disaster relief etc, a Merlin will have far, far greater utility than a Flynx.
Not a Boffin - There is little reason why the Mk3/3As can't be retrofitted with folding heads/tails. However, they would need an uprated transmission to offset the increased AUM.
If cost were no option, then the use of AAC Flynx in the same way as the USMC use Cobra/Huey would be ideal. However, remember that the AAC rarely fight alone (unlike the USMC) and would deploy with other utility assets to hand (ie Puma / SK4 at present). With the valid points that Two's In has made above it makes Flynx look more precarious. The critical enabler at the moment is Lift; we simply haven't got enough and FLynx will contribute very little to the cause (Think Canadian Griffons and 20 Ship Company Lifts...).
Armed Recce, according to accountants, can be done by the AH; C2 can be done by any available platfrom with a palletised system (Puma/Merlin/SK etc).
Again, if money were no object, let's have Flynx to offload other assets. However, Money is the object and this could be a big slice of salami....

[minigundiplomat]

Agreed.

Merlin isn't probably the gold plated solution, but ticks a number of boxes, and is produced in the UK. Watch the Treasury put 2+2 together, save some money and find a bodgit and scarper company to engineer blade fold.

I hope not, but would not be suprised.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Merlin Mk1 currently has no ASuW capability. Bit of a sweeping statement. If you mean Merlin has no autonomous ASuW strike/kill capability, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If however you consider ASuW Scouting/Surveillance/Picture Compilation/ISTAR/TPT/OTHT or whatever we want to call it today, the Merlin with its Blue Kestrel, Orange Reaper, Wescam and Datalink is a force ASuW asset that is massively more capable than the Lynx HMA.

:cool:

TOG

[Guzlin Adnams]

Here's my two penneth.....
A few more Merlins for 28/78. Don't the Italians use a tail/blade fold Merlin for ut work? If so would this work for the Navy for eventual SK4 replacement? Go for the 149 to replace Puma and some of the Lynx capability. Think the nasty Scotsman will prefer that to a Blackhawk.
While I'm in the groove why not have a few C27's to take some heat off the Wokkas and C130's....woops, sorry, thread creep.
Of course as you can tell I'm miles from being even nearly an expert, but what you really need is a descent budget.
Have a safe new year.
GA.

[Not_a_boffin]

Evalu8ter

Last I heard, the Merlin transmission was the limiting point in all UK ac - at max rating at start of life (the treasury would probbaly call that design to spec - I'd call it a bag of sh1te). Duff info, or is a new transmisison design in the works?

As for numbers, Lynx 815 currently supports 8T42 flights, 4 T22 flights and at least five T23s at the minute and IPS. The Merlin force of 42 manages an HQ, an IFTU, two big dipper sqns and about four or five small ships flights in 829. Whatever is left after CSP will still have to fill teh majority of this. I hope we don't lose that many ships!

[Rakshasa]

Guzlin,

Pretty much, 139 for Lynx, 149 for Puma (providing AW really do deliver a butch 139, in the 149) and Merlin for Sea King.

Finnmeccanica are happy.
Treasury are happy.
Westlands employees are happy....

...and we finally get some cabs younger than many of the blokes flying them! :ok:

*sigh* It could all be so simple... ish. :ugh:

[Evalu8ter]

Not a Boffin,
Agree; I understand that the current Merlin Transmission is a dead end; however, I think it is due to the original EHI.01 workshare, where the Italians got the gearbox. I believe that Westlands have a design for a better gearbox with a higher capacity in the wings, as well as BERP IV et al.

With regard to DD/FF flights there are economies to be made by having one FTU to convert both pinger and ASuW crews, plus the opportunity to move freely between the communities. Not all DD/FFs will need a ASuW roled Merlin all of the time - just those in the appropriate areas, the rest can embark a stripped down pinger bird in the utility role.

Guzzlin, was "descent budget" a freudian slip!!! However, agree about the C27J angle - the US Army use it to offload their (480+) CH47 fleet. Good "last tour" for SH mates as well!!

[mutleyfour]

Isn't today the "Options" day? If so does anyone have any news?