What do you make of this?

[garn]

Hey what does everyone think to this?
It seems quite good seen as id like to move up the engineering ladder within the helicopter world.
Thoughts / views would be most appreciated!
http://careers.whl.co.uk/engineering-prog.htm
Many thanks,
james

[Bravo73]

James,

Do you want to build helicopters or fix helicopters?

[garn]

i guess it depends which has the better promotion prospects

[Peter-RB]

James

If I was 40yrs or so less in height/age I would be racing you to get there.

on a serious note, that looks like a golden opportunity for a young person male or female who wants to get a good grounding in engineering , the company would obviously be able to help immensly and would in their own interests steer anyone who was able and successful in the right direction, it would help if you went un- encumbered by wife and children or dog and mortgage.;)

Peter R-B

Vfrpilotpb

[Bravo73]

i guess it depends which has the better promotion prospects

Promotion? Promotion to where or what exactly?


The Westlands job will involve building helicopters in Yeovil. There's only a finite number of other companies who also build helicopters - ie Bell, Sikorsky, Eurocopter, Agusta etc etc.

However, a licensed (maintenance) engineer has got the prospects of working virtually anywhere where helicopters are based.

If you would favour the latter, then have a look at Bond Offshore Helis. I've read somewhere that they are currently running an apprentice scheme for maintenance engineers.

[garn]

Interesting.

I guess promotion to bigger better jobs. I think the option to move about to different companies and doing varied work ( like working on different helicopters, working up to head of maintanence etc ) is most important in my mind.

Westland are also doing an apprentiship where you can specify in overhaul and repair.

However i will defiently give Bond a look. For some reason there web-site wont work on my Safari, stupid Mac internet system!

You wouldnt happen to know where bond train there people would you? Im assuming Aberdeen?

[subarup1]

Seems like a good opportunity for a young person to get some experience, but doesn't actually get you any qualifications recognised in the aviation industry, ie, a license. Oh and nvq 2/3, not worth the paper they're printed on, in my opinion, having done them.

If you want to work with helicopters, get someone to back you through your license. The 3 offshore operators in aberdeen all have schemes running.

Better yet, get onto the farnborough college course and get into Premiair, loads of different types to work on, and your aren't stuck in aberdeen!

[Capt Hollywood]

What do you make of this?

"I could make a hat, a broach, a pteradactyl".

It's off the movie "Flying High" or "Airplane" as it was known in the US....

remember when Lloyd Bridges character hands a piece of paper to the controller....

says "What do you make of this?"......

Bugger it, just watch the clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl_ypLCLAgg&feature=related




I'll get me coat.....
CH :cool:

[garn]

haha. i love autopilot

[NickLappos]

garn,

That posting raises the confusion that seems inherent in British dual meaning of the term "Engineer"

To most of the world, folks who maintain aircraft with wrenches and stuff are called "mechanics" and are paid as skilled manual workers. It is honorable and good work, in line with what a fellow in a power plant gets for maintaining the expensive generators and such. It is a "blue collar" job in US parlance. These people are called "Engineers" in the UK.

In the entire world's language, a person college-trained in mathematics and physical science after 4 or 5 years attains the ability to design machines and is called an "Engineer". This "engineer" is a white collar person who works in management, and who can (and often does) rise to run design sections and even become CEO of manufacturing companies. This person has perhaps ten times the academic training of a "mechanic" and this true "engineer" is about the same professional skill level as an accountant or as a teacher.

A "mechanic" gets perhaps 40% of the salary of an "Engineer".

The posting that you are reading is for a "mechanic." I strongly encourage folks who have strong mechanical skills, strong math and science backgrounds to become "engineers" and only become "mechanics" if they cannot put up with the academic rigor. This is what Bravo 73 means when he says "do you want to build helicopters (ie design them, in which case work toward becoming an "engineer") or fix them (ie be a mechanic)."

[skidbiter2]

They are called engineers in NZ also. (them who repair aircraft)
Pommy background I guess.

[rockpecker]

Some mechanics are very adamant to be called engineers. For some reason they take the semantics quite seriously. Nick wrapped up the difference nicely. Its simply different professions. Just as little as the mechanic can be expected to make design decisions, the engineer might not know a crowbar from a wrench. Whatever you decide, good luck, have fun and enjoy it.
:ok:

[Flash2001]

Nick
Much like over here. The same duality existed with railroad engine drivers being called engineers. I thought this unjust until I had the opportunity to browse an early 1900s copy of the Pennsylvania Railroad's Fireman's Apprentice Training Manual. These guys had to know a lot just to shovel coal. There was considerable classical thermodynamics there and math well above the current high school level.

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

[mini]

Job titles are becoming every more confusing...

The guy who writes computer code is now an "Architect"

The Marketing Intern is now an "Executive"

Etc Etc :hmm:

[kpd]

subarup1,

Do you mean the aeronautical engineering degree in Farnborough or another course?

Thanks

[Backward Blade]

Sir, I agree with your descriptions and differences but only to a point. If on the other hand you live in a tent, in the bush and your machine is broke and your so-called mechanic pulls some hard hours in sub-zero/ + 30C with bugs to beat the band, bare hands, covered in jet-fuel, with only sat-phone service for support...AND wakes me up the next morning 1 hour early for run-ups...AND wants to be called an engineer....Well Sir I will indeed call him an Engineer. I have always referred to them as such and will continue to do so. That boy/girl has earned it...period.

[Shawn Coyle]

The term 'engineer' is vastly different in countries that have ties to England (Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK) than anywhere else in the world.

I was rather surprised that Canada allowed aircraft repair technicians to have the title 'engineer' (as in Aircraft Maintenance Engineer- AME) appended to their designation. There was considerable opposition to this from the various provincial Professional Engineering councils, but as this was a federally mandated title, these organization's issues were dismissed.

I'm surprised that the term Engineer is still allowed to be used the way it is in England, as the Europeans have an entirely different view of things, and I thought the EU would have demanded something be done about the situation. But then again, England still uses miles, quarts, and pints....

I don't wish to put down those who fix and maintain aircraft of any description, but they are not 'Engineers' in the generally accepted definition of the term in Canada or the US, nor I think in Australia or New Zealand.

[NickLappos]

Backward Blade, your analogy makes absolutely no sense because you justify your argument with a silly analogy. Of course mechanics are essential to safety of flight! Were you in the bushes for 3 weeks and a rock star came along with a bottle of water, you might decide that Rock Stars were more essential yet. Give us all a break, OK?

A true "engineer" is a design expert who can create a new machine. A "mechanic-engineer" knows the maintenance manual, obtains the parts and fixes the machine. If the mechanic-engineer does not follow the maintenance manual, he will go to jail (it happens too often). In sharp contrast, the true "engineer" wrote the maintenance manual.

Call your mechanic whatever you wish (especially if he gets very huffy and you need him to tighten bits in the bushes), kiss him on the lips because you love him, but he is a mechanic. Send him to engineering college and he might make a very very good engineer (perhaps better than those graduate engineers who don't know a wrench from a wench).

If you insist on using the same title for vastly different occupations with vastly different intellectual and educational requirements, then why not call your mechanic "Prime Minister", or "Doctor" or perhaps "Emperor of the Earth"?

[garn]

so whats a licensed engineer then? moving into " proper" engineering has always sounded good to me and doing that via being a mechanic-engineer sounds great.

[NickLappos]

Semantics again! I really don't know what you mean by "licensed engineer"

Here is a bit about becoming an Aerospace Engineer:

http://www.ae.gatech.edu/admissions/FASET/Intro.pdf

I know that there are many top-notch Aerospace Engineering colleges in the UK, University of Liverpool comes immediately to mind. The courses around the world are quite similar, and degrees from US, UK, Germany and India are recognized and common in the aerospace industry world-wide.

[ShyTorque]

I think the title "engineer" is historical; going back to the industrial revolution, the time when Sikorsky was still a Russian and when there was no need for an English / American dictionary.


However, it may please some to hear that the term may be outlawed under EASA regulations and replaced with something like "aircraft maintainer".
Another "triumph for Europe", as if it matters :rolleyes:

[garn]

i guess it would translate to licensed mechanic. i just wanted to be clear on this if i could as i will be applying for mechanics apprentiships next year and dont want to be applying for the wrong thing.

I would be quite happy being a mechanic ( and carrying the title of "only a mechanic") and working through the ranks to chief mechanic and maybe in the future moving into engineering if a company would sponsor me.

[VeeAny]

Its a bit like the thing that always used to make me wonder.

Medical practitioners get called Dr but most hold no Doctorate (Phd.)

Nick is right I think in his absolute definitions, but in the UK if you want your aircraft looked at in a timely fashion don't call them mechanics, and remember to buy them beer at Christmas, it won't be too long until its politically incorrect to celebrate that either.

The English language can be bad enough at times, and then we have dialects from around the world.

Back to thread for a moment, like B73 says do you want to assemble them or fix them ?

Agusta Westland is probably a good company to serve an apprenticeship at if you want to become a hands on engineer. Good luck to you.

[ShyTorque]

Yes, Dr Who has dialects. Scary things, designed by engineers, maintained by robots.

[garn]

thanks veeany.

I would rather fix at first and maybe move into engineering later. I just dont want to go back to full time study right now.

I assuming you could move from mechanic to engineer and AW for example would support that? Even if you hadnt worked for them previously?

[Shawn Coyle]

Some of the best engineers (and I mean those with degrees) are the ones who have served an apprenticeship learning all the nuts and bolts of their preferred discipline. Those who have served as technicians before getting a college degree have the benefit of learning the practice before the theory.
I fully support aircraft mechanics / technicians going for higher education - we need more of 'em.

[HUMS]

Reminds of my degree (Mechanical Engineering) - we had to write about how the term "Engineer" had become so abused in general. The example we were given is the guy who comes round to fix your washing machine is job titled as an engineer....

Think the Lecturer was especially peeved that Engineers in the UK generally didn't get the same level of recognition as elsewhere in the world - apparently it was a yearly assignment :)

[Lokon]

Mechanic/Engineer! we get called lots of things, abit like the Pilot is only a driver....drive of passengers....that makes you taxi driver then? :ok:

[Graviman]

Garn, do yourself a favour and get hold of Stroud Engineering Mathematics. Go through this when the apprentiship gives you a chance, and that degree stuff will eventually be a breeze.

If i had my time over i would have beaten a path to Westland instead of chosing the financial security offered by an apprentiship at Rover... :ugh:

PS: I'm a professional engineer who holds a skilled technician in high esteem. :ok:

HUMS, i've worked my way up to shoe-shine-boy, i don't know why you think engineers are trodden on in UK. :E

[bellsux]

The term engineer came abour due to everything aviation being based on nautical terms used in aviation, still to this day all over the world every ship at sea has captain, first officer, second etc.. also chief engineer, first engineer etc...

Sure the world is changing and so are peoples job description, so the plate lickers didn't like being called stewards / stewardess anymore so they pushed and pulled til they got their titles changed to flight attendants and now slowly the pursers are geting their titles changed to the very exciting one of cabin manager.

I use the term engineer for myself as after a four year apprentiship and a few extra years of study and exams the commonwealth government has given me this title, maybe if I did my A+P in seven days and the FAA gave me a ticket to certify everything for a tiger moth to a 747 I would not be so keen to use it.

Also as a helicopter pilot I do not use the term Captain as that is really a title that needs a bit more respect. Those that do use it 150 hours of training in a R22 I consider complete tossers and got into the industry for their egos sake, maybe one day if I get behind the wheel of a A380 I might reconsider.

I have nothing against University trained engineers and they have their place in aviation and I for one are happy they are sitting next to a computer all day in a cubical with Autocad 2004 because I would rather slam my d*ck in a car door than do that for the rest of my life. I have had this discussion many times before with degree holding engineers before and they really couldn't give a hoot what we are called.. they seem to be more up set by the new generation of "software" and "genetic" engineers using their title.

Me.. I like tradition and will continue to use it for as long as it winds up those on their pedestals who think they are something special for what job they do for a living.

[SawThe Light]

Stirring here, but what the heck.

If a licence reads "Engineer" or 'Mechanic" then that that's fine, call it as it reads. I guess that a PIC of a 747 I would also call it as it reads on their licence wouldn't they? ALTP or is it ALTC?


STL

[bellsux]

waiting...
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/TheMufti_2007/MichealJacksonPopcorn.gif

[ericferret]

As this is an English speaking forum the Oxford English Dictionary (compact) makes a good guide.


Engineer

A person qualified in a branch of engineering.

A person who makes or is in charge of engines.

A person who maintains machines (a mechanic, a technician ).

This is the definition of the word. If someones ego drives them to believe it has a higher meaning "frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

To take Nick Lappos mechanics (in which he includes licensed engineers) earn 40% of what a "real " engineer earns and put figures to it we get the following.

For a UK based licensed engineer working shifts, 6 months with present employer, one company type rating.

£48,000 divide by 4 multiply by 10. A "real" engineer working for wastelands must be on £120,000 ($240,000)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dream on Nick.

At the moment licensed engineers in the UK are doing ok. We are largely with Bellsux on this one. We don't give a ****e about the graduates who believe that 3 years in a university entitles them to a "title". Most of us have spent far longer achieving our qualification levels.

We can read the papers and we know what salaries "real " engineers are being offered in the UK jobs market. By and large we don't care because in general we earn more and we aren't stuck behind a desk clock watching.

Bellsux

I like the title Bellsux, as I am spending a lot of my time time working on the S76 (known over here as the plastic pig) I thought a new handle of Sikorskyshyte might be in order. What do you think?

[ShyTorque]

I thought a new handle of Sikorskyshyte might be in order. What do you think?

'Ere, watch it! :{

Why not Sikorskyferret?

ShyT

[topendtorque]

Those that build 'em over here are labelled as Aeronautical engineers. Similarly those that build Bridges and roads are Civil engineers.

For a fair while those that empty the bedpans used to study the mechanics of the 'job' in house, they were labelled nurses.
Now they are nurses aids. The real nurses in this fair country go to uni for quite a while to learn fluid hydraulics etc, which was supposed to help them to empty bed pans back in the ward.

But wait there is more, now there is a revolt and it has been decided that real nurses are hopeless when they return from the house of scholarship but instead should learn the trade 'on the job'.

schematics - mechanics - word definitions etc. maybe this little ditty which came across my desk today will help all to understand.

It goes like this and the "to-and-froms" here may know what it is all about.

Old mate buys a teddy bear for a xmas gift for ten bucks.

He calls it Mohammed.

He decides that he doesn't like it so he cashes it in on Ebay for $30.

Now the poor fella in totally confused, did he make a prophet or not?

[Graviman]

I have no problem with someone who has done a four year apprentiship, and studied to get the qualification, calling themselves an engineer. The objection comes from when the term "engineer" is used by some accountant to describe the guy who is filling in a pothole.

To clarify my profession from the highly qualified and respectable profession of helicopter maintenance engineer, i use the term design engineer. My actual job description is durability, dynamics and design engineer (sadly outside of helicopters). I have no problem at all with rolling up my sleeves and helping out to build a new prototype, and will willingly accept the advise of an experienced mechanic.

I used the term technician in my ealier post to differentiate between design and maintenance activities. I do not regard a technician as a lower profession, and frankly could not do what the technicians i work with do. They have no problem with being called technicians - it implies technical expertise in a specific application.

[Mark Nine]

garn

To answer your original question...........the apprenticeship is for production, which means doing the same thing time and time again :hmm:.......only go there if it is your last resort.
The reason i say this is because the only piece of paper worth having at the end of your apprenticeship is an EASA Part-66 licence. Any company not preparing you for a licence is only interested in keeping you long term in a job with little or no prospects. To earn big money, you need a licence. To move up into maintenance management, you need a licence. Simple.
A quick guide to the different levels of maintainer;
Fitter....can do most jobs, supervised all the time...........£25K
Catagory A licence holder.....can do and sign for basic stuff, (oils, wheel change).......£25K-£30K
Catagory B licence holder.....can sign for his and other peoples, (fitters) work......£30K basic, realistically £55K with shift/type rating/overtime/call-out pay
Catagory C licence holder.....signs off the big base maintenance jobs. Usually a manager.....£50K+
In summary, a licence is the difference between £25K and £50K :ok:

P.M. me if you want details of a rotary company who do offer Licence apprenticeships.

[ericferret]

Shy torque,

I would not consider for a second associating the noble ferret with the builders of the plastic pig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to say that the S76 does have it's good points. Many an engineer has paid off his mortgage from the necessary overtime generated to keep the beast flying.

In fact one engineer of my aquaintance would never hear a bad word said against it for this reason alone.

[ShyTorque]

Ericferret,

Fair enough, your choice but just keep my name out of it too, thanks. :)

Good aircraft when it stays serviceable; in the absence of the French I blame the engineers. Hang on though - the engines are French.... :suspect:

[garn]

s76 here i come then!

[NickLappos]

US Department of Labor Statistics for Occupations

Aircraft mechanic and service technician - Diagnose, adjust, repair, or overhaul aircraft engines and assemblies, such as hydraulic and pneumatic systems. Include helicopter and aircraft engine specialists.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes493011.htm
Mean hourly pay $22.95, mean annual salary $49,300

Aerospace Engineer - Perform a variety of engineering work in designing, constructing, and testing aircraft, missiles, and spacecraft. May conduct basic and applied research to evaluate adaptability of materials and equipment to aircraft design and manufacture. May recommend improvements in testing equipment and techniques.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172011.htm
mean hourly pay $42.92 Mean annual salary $89,260

A graduate engineer makes 1.81 times the pay of a mechanic-engineer

Both are honorable professions, but one should never confuse one for the other, even if your language does.

[Bravo73]

s76 here i come then!

Then it sounds like the Farnborough/PremiAir option is your best bet. They maintain most of the onshore S76s in the country.

You might even get away with living in London (depending on which side you are.)

[ericferret]

Shy Torque

I will never mention you again, bugger just did!!!!!!!


Looks like the mechanics have had a pay rise since Nicks original post. I make it that they are now earning more than 50% of a "real engineers" pay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have the same types of statistics in the UK jobs guide. A book aimed at careers teachers and students. According to that document a licensed engineer earns £20/30,000 a year.


Our unlicensed mechanics were earning over £30,000 a year 3 years ago from a basic of about £22,000+bonus+overtime. All this with a shift system that required them to attend for only 150 days a year!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody should underestimate the value of a skilled mechanic. When it comes to getting checks done on night shifts they are the engine that shifts the work.

However the operators require certifying engineers to sign for the mechanics work and to release the aircraft to service, which is where the licensed engineers come in. They take the resposibility and carry the can when it goes wrong. They get paid accordingly (if they are lucky).

Out of interest what does an I.A earn in the States if they still have them?

[garn]

thanks bravo,

I was already going to send a letter to premiair and im based in far south west in twickenham, but willing to move for the job.

Ive also has eurocopter in oxford highly recomended for the apprentice cource.

[ericferret]

If you fancy going further afield Bristows are at Norwich and CHC at North Denes (Yarmouth).
CHC have been recruiting recently and are providing plenty of training. Bristows are supposed to be loosing a lot of guys due to retirement in the near future.

[ShyTorque]

Both are honorable professions, but one should never confuse one for the other, even if your language does.

Our language? We gave you a perfectly good language, Nick; and just look what "your lot over there" did to it. :p

Totally agree, though but as far as keeping us flying it's far better to have a hangar full of mechanics than engineers. Keep the engineer away from the spanners, in the office by the phone. Then if he gets a difficult question he's covered both ways; he can either phone a friend or go into the hangar and ask a mechanic. :E

Notice that I'm doing my bit for international relations; I did call them mechanics for our transatlantic cousins. We all know they are "ginger beers" really though. ;)

[rockpecker]

Our language? We gave you a perfectly good language


Are you serious?? Whilst a great admirer of some of your island's achievements, your language is not one of them. Non-phonetic, with an irregular grammar, inconsistent pronunciation, and generally devoid of idiomatic colour, I would be hard-pressed to call your language a "perfectly good" one. Next to Mandarin, one of the more difficult tongues for non-native speakers to acquire. Spread around the world through invading, looting and pillaging, I may add! The sound of it offends foreign ears, akin to having them slowly removed with a cheese grater, unlike the melodious beauty of the languages across the channel....

Back to the semantics issue: poteito, potato.....:p

[ericferret]

Really Nick and his mates should speak German, they take the engineer thing really seriously over there. It being a title you can use like Doctor, or Colonel, e.g Dipl.Ing Kurt Tank.
The man who designed The Focke Wulf 190.

I understand that at some point in the history of the USA they actually had a vote on what was to be the main language of the country and German lost by a narrow margin.

Oh the irony of it.

Whereas we ungodly Brits have the gall to take the piss out of the whole thing.
Still it's our language.

If they Americans don't want it they can always give it back. Then they will really impress
the world with those German compound words

Reichsluftfahrtministerium for some reason always sticks in my mind!!!!!!!!!!!

[ericferret]

Previously mentioned in another thread the story of the formation of the Royal Air Force in 1918 adds to this saga.

Trenchard (not sure if he was Lord by then ) wanted the title "Marshall" for the top job in the fledgling service.

He was heavily opposed by those pointing out that this title was only given to the elite,
Field Marshall, Marshall de France e.t.c

His response was two words, Provost Marshall. He won the argument.

[ericferret]

This page from the Royal Aeronautical Society the professional body representing the aircraft industry in the UK might shed a little light.

www.raes.org.uk/cms/uploaded/files/GCAA1.pdf

So if I want an Eng after my name all I have to do is apply for it.

Reminds me of that old BT advert with " Beattie" gassing on the phone about her son

"he's got an 'ology" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Graviman]

Totally agree, though but as far as keeping us flying it's far better to have a hangar full of mechanics than engineers. Keep the engineer away from the spanners, in the office by the phone. Then if he gets a difficult question he's covered both ways; he can either phone a friend or go into the hangar and ask a mechanic.


I presume you're going to allow this impractical engineer to do some calculations to give your workhorse parts with acceptable design life? When your workhorse is becoming obselete, i hope you don't mind if that same useless engineer releases more than a fag packet sketch for the replacement design? ;)

BTW, when i want to evaluate a new design I always seek the advise of the technicians who will be building the prototype. For practical advise, and new design evaluation, they are king in my book. :D

[ericferret]

Ah the glorious design engineers.

This is how they used to do design repair schemes up in Aberdeen for the S61's.

1 Licensed engineer finds corrosion hole where engine bay meets the structure under the fibreglass fillets.

2 Licensed engineers makes up suitable repair plates I.A.W the repair manual.

3 Licensed engineers takes the plates into the office and photocopies them, rivet holes and all.

4 Licensed engineer faxes the copies to engineering in Aberdeen.

5 One week later a set of drawings appears with all the little engineering bells and whistles on them.

By then the aircraft has already being flying for a week.

[Graviman]

Good story Eric. I'm amazed you got the drawings back in a week!

I'm not in the helicopter industry, but have been at the opposite end of similar problems (fatigue not corrosion). If the design engineer is doing his/her job right, he/she will have done some kind of calculation to prove (or otherwise) that the repair will go the distance.

I can't speak for your experience, but i know what i would do is get a drawing back ASAP with some basic calculation to show it worked. A week is probably about right for a reasonably simple mod. If this looked like it could become an epidemic i would also do Finite Element calcs to prove out a field fix for all machines. Once this was sorted my next task would be to make sure that production were fitting this field fix. I would then design and stress up a modification for production which would stop the problem reoccuring. This might all take a month or two (with the right software).

Believe me i have lost sleep over some problems. If the problem involves picking up a spanner then i let it get too far. Can i use a spanner? Sure, i've replaced head gaskets and such. But the point is i shouldn't need to. There are professionals out there that have the training, experience and equipment required to get the job right. I have a genuine respect for that.

A design engineer earns his keep turning a blank sheet of paper into a product. This means he/she needs to understand the problem from every perspective. That's why we waste so much time studying. The design engineer's job is to figure that there is a market for a replacement to the S-61, then do all the design, analysis, testing and development required to produce the S-92. There is a lot more to it than most folk show any interest in understanding (which really does annoy me).

Shawn Coyle is right about practical ability making for a better engineer though - if you can get "Eng" after your name then you should go for it. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Graviman, just try not to take the banter too seriously, old chap. A fag packet sketch is fine though; I've built cars using those. :)

[Graviman]

Apologies Shytorque - i was getting a little carried away there. My speciality is the fag packet sketch. ;)

It's a raw nerve which comes from having to defend my role to other departments. Part of it is that have lived in US, France and Germany. I found when i said i was an engineer folks would ask which discipline, in the UK folks assume i mean plumber or electrician. Feels a bit unfair for so much hard work...


Merry Christmas all! :ok:

[ericferret]

Graviman

Time spent studying is never wasted unless youv'e turned down the opportunity for a shag.

Take my case
1999 Boeing type course airframe and engine 8 weeks
2000 Another Boeing type course airframe and engine 5 weeks
2001 Boeing avionics and electrics type course 5 weeks
2002 Boeing avionics and electrics course 4 weeks
2003 Airbus airframe engine electrics avionics 12 weeks in total
2004 Boroscope and engine running courses
2005 Human factors training, Boeing airstair course
2006 Airbus refresher course one week
2007 Continuation and refresher training
2008 At least 1 possibly 2 type courses plus further electrical and avionics training.
Could be the busiest training year yet.

One of the issues that is supposed to separate "real" engineers from the herd is continuous
professional development. I wonder how many can point to a similar amount of training?

This is for experienced engineers at the back ends of their careers. We are required to keep this up to the bitter end. I wonder how many disciplines require this level of commitment throughout a career?

Over Christmas and new year (with little chance of a shag) I will have the electrics theory out, ready to have my brain fried and boiled afresh in January.

[rockpecker]

Try medicine. Any of the surgical disciplines in particular.
Any technically/scientifically orientated profession where continuous updating is not required, is suspect. Gotta keep the noodle fresh and supple!
:ok:

[Graviman]

ericferret,

Like i say, the highly respected profession of aircraft maintenance engineer.

I'm quite jealous of your knowledge BTW :ok:

Merry Xmas all!

[ericferret]

I always fancied being a surgeon. It's watching the sheeties in action that does it.

Don't bugger about, cut a big enough hole so you can get in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Disc cutter, Windy, tinsnips, oh f*ck, big hammer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jolly girl]

Garn,
No doubt you are considering your temperment while evaluating design vs. line work options. Line work favors those who prefer discrete, physical, linear tasks with a clear beginning and end and relatively immediate feedback; design work those who can work in a more abstract internal way and can tolerate delayed (or the absence of) feedback. Line work provides greater opportunity for travel or unique locations while design work is more of a stable office environment. (Sort of a “Car Talk’ vs. ‘Office Space’ comparison, if you are familiar with US entertainment.) That said, I almost always prefer designers who got their start in the ops world – these folks think more holistically, can quickly orient themselves on the platform, understand the interaction between the component they are working with and other systems and the user, and understand the cost of doing business (especially the costs when things go wrong). There also seems to be a mission focus often lacking in those who have only operated a desk.
As for promotion, I suppose that depends on what you mean. If by this you mean money money, I suggest you look elsewhere as aviation is like an NGO, where you are here because it is something you love and not for the lifestyle. That said, aviation is usually a meritocracy, where knowledge is key. It’s like ericferret says, a true professional is always learning, and this is what generates advancement. And if you start off on the line side and decide you would rather be driving a desk (or vice versa), you can always do change course. That’s one of the wonderful things about aviation… if there is a specific subject that interests you, you can always create a niche.

As for writing the checklist versus using the checklist, a good designer will always validate their work with someone in the field prior to publication.

Best of luck to you, whichecver path you choose,
Jolly