Police Industrial Action [Archive]

tightrope

11th Dec 2007, 22:42

The main talk at the moment is revolving around simply withdrawing goodwill from the job..

Things like accident investigation officers and scenes of crime officers taking firms mobile fones home, so they can be called out to fatal accidents.

The future may well bring about the scenario whereby if you have a fatal accident overnight on the motorway. The motorway stays closed until the relevant departments come on duty at 8am the next day and travel (slowly) to the scene to begin their work. That should go down well in the rush hour on the week before xmas..:E:E

In this world of direct employment for Pilots and engineers, poor pay settlements effect not just Police Air Observers... slippery slope methinks.
:yuk:

delta3

11th Dec 2007, 22:46

SilsoeSid

no offence at all.

Was not meant to be political, I just find it odd to use of "industrial" (almost provocative).

The guys in Industry should start planning an "Public service action"

...

bananaskiner

11th Dec 2007, 23:00

I just find it odd to use of "industrial" (almost provocative).

Well i guess the terminology comes from the backround that some Police Officers come from.
"Public Service" doesnt always sit well with the Police.
They are Serving the Public, more than Public Servants.

Having bashed a few heads at major riots and major public disturbances, over the years, I didnt feel much like a servant to the public.
Most of the time Im stopping (a particular section of) the public from doing the things they want to do. ie racing on roads at dangerous speeds, taking / selling drugs, bashing their wives and partners, or raping and murdering our women folk. etc etc
Not the type of role that sits well with the title of servant..:}

A lot of the cops I know have roots in military, coal mining, steelworking, engineering, and other such "industrial" backgrounds.. hence the terminology.. I'm probably a little old fashioned I guess hehehe

Plus, the Police are very much outside the "establishment". You wont find the likes of the security services or the (so called) intelligence world talking to the likes good old plod. So again, it perhaps lends itself to images of picket lines and banners though I doubt very much it will happen.

Personally I dont think the Police stand a chance. Sad but true.:rolleyes:

tigerfish

11th Dec 2007, 23:19

To all the Police Air Observers UK. Stick with it lads ( & lasses). I well remember as a Sergeant in the late 1970's realising that I was taking home less pay than the local Milkman. Then came along the Edmond Davies enquiry into Police Pay. After that we had over 30 years of peace and harmony on the pay front. Then this ****dy government dumped Edmond Davies on the grounds " The Police have no problem recruiting or with retention, so they must be too well paid " ( words uttered by a Home Secretary at the Supts Annual Conference ) Since then there has been discord & disruption! The latest pay award by the independant arbitration board has been dishonoured by the Home Secretary's decision not to back date it to September. In other words 1.9% instead of 2.5% - you have been shafted!
You are prevented by law from striking, but you can closely examine that which you are asked to do & ask yourself "Is this life threatening?" is it my duty to do this?
Remember too that you are highly skilled & whilst you can be told to put on a "pointy hat" & return to normal duties, at least you may be elligable for bonus payments as a front line officer, something the current system will not accept! Anyway who can replace you? The Supts Association and ACPO also appear to be sympathetic!
Tigerfish

bandeeto

12th Dec 2007, 01:51

Northumbria Police want to replace their 9 police observers with civilian observers. While that is a completely seperate debate, interestingly, these new observers will have full rights, including industrial action. So in years to come there is a possibilty of the Newcastle based aircraft being grounded due to industrial action. That will go down well with all the cops on the street chasing some criminal through gardens..
As for the current situation for police, I think we need to send a message to the government who feel they can turn us over at will. A ballot for strike action will do this I feel - whether we ever went on strike is a different matter.
PS Since deciding about civilianisation in March 2007 they have now nearly got one civilian on the unit (due to start in January). :hmm:

on21

12th Dec 2007, 05:06

Co-ordinated sickness. :ok:

Sgtfrog

12th Dec 2007, 09:45

I've been out of the force for a year now so my info is a little out of date, but HMG did the same last year. There was talk of work to rule and lots of other stuff but it came to nothing in the end.
SF

bandeeto

12th Dec 2007, 10:54

Hi SF, last year was similar up until the arbitration decision, at this point last year the Home Office gave us the award backdated.
This year arbitration have come up with a figure, and we're not getting it backdated. There is even suggestion from a leaked letter that the government deliberately stalled talks to achieve this. The government are now riding roughshod over arbitration, which is our only defence.
And of course if you're in Scotland it is being backdated as the Scottish Parliament believe in honouring the arbitration decision.

Sgtfrog

12th Dec 2007, 11:28

Thanks...good to see nothing has changed!:ok:

bugdevheli

12th Dec 2007, 16:26

Cmon you chaps, your on a bloody site better pay packet than most, and retire with a good pension thats guaranteed. Try making a living in the real world. This does not apply to all those lovely policemen who fly. They deserve a fifty percent pay rise, backdated for five years:D:D:D:D

DBChopper

12th Dec 2007, 23:06

Try making a living in the real world.

Call me old-fashioned, but last week when I was clambering around a rotting corpse removing the deceased owner's pet dogs who had started to eat her, I felt that was about as "real world" as it gets ;)

tigerfish

12th Dec 2007, 23:20

Now y'all see here!
The problem with guys like bugdevheli " Who lives on a Hill" is that they do not understand our pension scheme! OK Yes I agree we have a good pension scheme ( I am very happy drawing it!) But most of the critics really do not understand that we pay for it! How many of you are required to pay 11% of your pay each month into the pension scheme? And on top of that 11% you also have to pay all of the other deductions that everyone else has to pay too. It s bad enough when you have 20 years in, but just picture yourself as a probationer, Getting all of the Sh** dangerous jobs for very meager pay & still getting that 11% deducted. No choice by the way, - its compulsory!
So don't give me that crap about such a great pension. Yes it is! But we also pay through the nose for it!
Thats why the Police are so bitter. They do the job, - at the sh**** end of society, & then some smart A** comes along & suggests that somehow they don't deserve decent treatment, & are too well paid already!
I too agree that our Police observers need more consideration. What bloody idiot decided that they are not front line? I bet they've not flown on a dark, wet blowy night on a dodgy job, or been an important link in Bronze command saving the guys on the ground from getting encircled during a riot situation.
Why does Scotland value the services of their observers as true front line officers, but our guys in England doing the same job arn't?
This is the same Gov't that is happy to have RAF Nimrod's in their late 30's still flying in dangerous operations. Puma's that were bought by the RAF in 1971 refurbished rather than replaced like every other Country has done. The Navy cut back to half a dozen rowing boats, & the Army terribly overstretched? If you serve your country do NOT expect your government to repay you!
OK thats it, - Rant over! I feel better now!
Tigerfish

jayteeto

13th Dec 2007, 02:26

I am on shift now with 3 long serving policemen. They are furious with the government, but they all doubt that they would strike. They will however vote yes for the 'right to strike' and would take part in a work in accordance with the rules. At the minute, police in our force reluctantly accept illegal (yes, illegal!) working directives. ALL leave and rest days are cancelled over Halloween period, every year. New Year and many other times are compulsary also. In other words, if you are a Merseyside cop, you will never get those days off, ever. Happy New Year!! The management regularly (weekly) tell the support group to do compulsary overtime (ok, it is well paid), meaning if you have something booked, the ticket is lost and your partner grows more angry. When the prison officers went on strike recently, the bobbies were told their 10 hour shift had become a 20 hour shift, no notice. People grumbled, but they got on with it because they accept that they do as they are told. When the penny-pinching treasury took away this pay, this insensed rank and file. The average actual amount involved per officer is just over £40 a month, therefore a TOTAL of approx £130. Thats it...... 130 measly quid. The reason all this is blowing up is purely down to the PRINCIPLE. This government will regret many things when they lose the next election, this is another straw on the camels back. How many more to go??

sunnywa

13th Dec 2007, 07:28

The Police in Western Australia had a pay dispute during their last EBA and to win (or apply pressure to the govt), they stopped giving out speeding fines and only issued cautions. Cost - $2.5Milliion AUD (about five quid) per week to the govt.
Over in a month. Imagine how much you guys would cost the govt if you did the same. :E

bugdevheli

13th Dec 2007, 07:38

Now listen. My comments were not aimed at the people who have the ability to enter debate on a forum such as this. I thought the flying fraternity reference clarified that. I was refering to that element within the force and i am sure you know a few, who swing the lead. Its these particular ones that cast a shadow on the hard working chaps. How do i know. I know because i was married to one for thirty five years. Would you agree that there are a lot of people on your particular division who aint worth there salt

helimutt

13th Dec 2007, 08:02

So you pay 11% out of your salary and get a really good pension. I can't see what the problem is. Wish I had a pension which would take care of me in old age (if I live that long) and only cost me 11%. As for the 'other' deductions, by these, I assume you mean the ones everyone pays?

I believe the government are on a road to nowhere now and hopefully will lose the next election purely to show the they can't take the p*ss.

The police could easily work to rule and one suggestion I have, is mentioned above. No speeding fines, only cautions. How much would the government lose in a short space of time? :ok:

DBChopper, your job sounds like fun! Was the corpse smelly? always wondered if the smell lingers;)

delta3

13th Dec 2007, 08:31

Quote : "The police could easily work to rule and one suggestion I have, is mentioned above. No speeding fines, only cautions"

That could exactly be the difference between "Industrial Action" and "Public Service Action". Would certainly not make you unpopular with some of your "customers".

d3, just a private citizen from a different country

huntnhound

13th Dec 2007, 08:44

I dont actually understand why a Police thread has started on an aviation forum.
Firstly Pilots have nothing to grumble about as far as pay is concerned. All pilots are extremely well paid, and have the luxury of being able to retire at
60. Surely they can afford a decent pension, and would have planned that pension from an early age as they are all very intelligent people arent they?

The arguements on Police pay have been well aired by the media. Most agree the Police have been crapped on by the Home Secretary. However striking is not an issue. The pay could be sorted out very quickly just as soon as 1, all Firearms officers hand in their firearms authorisations ( just like they threatened to do a couple of years ago in the Met) 2, All Police drivers hand in their driving authorities stating that Pursuits are now so dangerous that they no longer feel capable of conducting them , or passing through red lights on the way to 999 jobs, 3, All officers withdraw their telephone numbers and go "ex dir" so they cannot be contacted other than by a personal visit. The list is endless...so striking isnt really needed...however the right to strike is, because next years pay battle is only 9 months away:rolleyes:

Letsby Avenue

13th Dec 2007, 10:49

Use Section 44 powers ad nauseam on every MP for the next six months - Stop & Search them at every opportunity, Stop them at 'random' in their cars and breathalyse them every time they get anywhere near a car, setup mobile speed cameras at the end of every MPs road - Make life a misery for them. It probably won't get you anywhere but it will sure make you feel better:):):)

I wonder if UNISON will allow the same shoddy tactic on police support staff?:uhoh:

SilsoeSid

13th Dec 2007, 11:05

huntnhoundI dont actually understand why a Police thread has started on an aviation forum.

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Simpsons%20Clue%20Board%20Game%20Small.jpg

Rotorheads forum and the question, "Any of the Police Units out there affected yet or perhaps going to be..??"

Pilots have nothing to grumble about as far as pay is concerned.

Isn't this primarily an observer, sorry, passenger thing. ;)

I don't hear pilots grumbling about this police pay issue..yet, besides, aren't pilots pay and the current dispute different issues? :confused:

Work to rule and I reckon there will be a few people waiting in the wings to take your place! :rolleyes:

Bonus payments, overtime, free public transport etc make some bobbies happy boys and girls...don't they? Pilots don't get those perks! ;)

http://www.zdesign.com.au/eva/pics/fairy-bread/bread-butter-close-s.JPG

huntnhound

13th Dec 2007, 11:41

Sid...you`re too easy;)

Marco

13th Dec 2007, 11:49

HH

"Firstly Pilots have nothing to grumble about as far as pay is concerned. All pilots are extremely well paid, and have the luxury of being able to retire at
60."
I take issue with your statement. Our pilots, with 5 years seniority, have recently been offered a measly pay rise which is less than the the starting salary of some other police asu's.
On one hand the force wastes thousands of pounds every day but can't look after their staff. it isn't just the warranted police officers who are being taken advantage of.
:\

paco

13th Dec 2007, 12:37

"Firstly Pilots have nothing to grumble about as far as pay is concerned. All pilots are extremely well paid........"

No, they're not!

Phil

What Limits

13th Dec 2007, 13:13

With 25 years seniority I am not well paid but I am rich.

If you want to be well paid, don't work in the public sector or for someone else.

huntnhound

13th Dec 2007, 13:35

marco

re "...I take issue with your statement. Our pilots, with 5 years seniority, have recently been offered a measly pay rise which is less than the the starting salary of some other police asu's..."

1. They can go on strike.
2. They can always draw on their millitary pension:)
3. They can leave and go and work on the rigs.
4. They can leave and work for a better paid ASU

HnH

SilsoeSid

13th Dec 2007, 14:44

huntnhoundSid...you`re too easy

That's my problem, never been to bed with an ugly woman.....woken up with a few though!! :eek:

Anyway, I thought it was my reply that was casting the bait. :E

Just to put a different look at things, Adam Applegarth, the chief executive of Northern Rock has quit today, I wonder what his Golden Handshake will be out of the money we have put into Northern Rock via El Gordo et al.
But I suppose that payment won't be affecting inflation!!

Coconutty

13th Dec 2007, 17:33

.... Just to clear up a couple of points that are regularly being quoted in the media, and even here on 'Prune which are factually incorrect :rolleyes:

1) - "Police are angry that the recent pay award is not being backdated to 1st September"

The Police Pay rise was DUE on 1st September. Therefore the phrase "backdated" does not reflect the true situation, where the award made earlier this month has been DELAYED by the Government, who refused to implement it from the due date, effectively reducing the pay award by 3/12 - for September, October and November. ( Except in Scotland where the arbitrators recommendations were implemented in full - obviously the English and Welsh Police Officers are not as worthy :ooh: )

2) - The pay award is NOT 2.5%. This is the amount that the arbitrators decided should be paid - from 1st September - but by failing to implement from the due date, the amount is effectively reduced by the 3/12 mentioned above, in other words a 25% reduction on the 2.5% award.

3) - The pay award is NOT 1.9% either - that is the figure that has been conveniently "rounded up" from the actual figure of 1.875% !

I support the Police in their campaign to let the government know how angry they are about the treatment they have received.

To just sweep aside the existing pay negotiations / agreement, and then ignore the results of the arbitration and apply their own interpretation, show that the Government never had any intention of allowing any more than a 2% pay rise, no matter what the abitrators decided - if they had awarded more, then the Government would probably have fudged the figures for staged payments to make sure it was still less than 2%, making a complete mockery of the whole saga. :suspect:

The Police Officers I have spoken to would have no problem if the formula used for negotiating their pay were changed, provided the changes were FAIR and reflected both the nature of the work they do, and their peculiar personal circumstances - where they cannot strike, have restrictions placed on their private lives, and face ever increasing levels of danger on a daily basis.

Having said all of the above, I would not support the Police going on strike, and believe they would lose Public support if they did so.

On the brighter side I assume that all English and Welsh Police Officers can look forward to their Council Tax bills, and all their other bills for that matter, rising by a percentage no more than the cost of their wage increase, due to the prudent financial handling of the economy by Golden Brown and his party.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

doublesix

13th Dec 2007, 19:00

Can't wait to see if the government award themselves 1.9% as their next pay rise. (In the public interest of course!)

maxdrypower

13th Dec 2007, 20:12

As a cop , part time agreed pax and almost CPL when it comes to pay yes we are well paid ,but if you think about it how many of the pilots for any of the ASU's are paid anything like a PC ? NOt many , if any I would suggest . Bear in mind a top pay scale PC with in excess of ten yrs service draws 32 grand per yr . How many pilots are on that . So as an ASU pilot you may be earning a lot less than other industry heli guys , but remember when your hovering above the aforementioned officers being encircled and routinely assaulted your earning a lot more than they are without any risk to your person (Inherent aviation dangers aside ) but the observers run those risks too .
And just to set the record straight on pensions , if you have over two years service in the police then you are paying 11% if you joined recently you're only paying 9% and have to work 35 years to get the same deal as those paying 11% , I cannot see there being many takers for 35 yrs in this appalling job . And those on mil pensions didnt do 30 yrs to get it

Letsby Avenue

13th Dec 2007, 20:56

Oh dear, oh dear - didn't take long to blow the old 'we're all a team' thing apart did it?:hmm:

bugdevheli

13th Dec 2007, 21:29

Tigerfish Glad you felt better for your rant, guess i touched a nerve but "SMART ARSE", easy on old chap :=:=

Lightning_Boy

13th Dec 2007, 21:42

Maxdrypower,

I understand what your saying, but also remember, there are not many PC that have spent near to 120K of their own money on their job training. (Military pilots excluded :E)

bananaskiner

13th Dec 2007, 21:53

hehe

I appreciate the current "industrial" unrest doesnt affect you pilots directly. However, one of the scenarios posed was that of directly employed Pilots.

Like it or not you will end up as being classed as Public Sector workers, and end up getting dicked along with everyone else.
:\:\

Also, just for the record. The destruction of the current Police pension, earlier this year, is only one in a long line of erosions to pay and conditions that have occured over the last decade.
Rent allowance
Housing Allowance
Dental Care
Plain Clothes allowance
etc etc
all gone.

I think things may get a lot worse before they get better,,,:(

maxdrypower

13th Dec 2007, 22:18

Lightning , very true , although I almost have . But just because someone hasnt made a very personal decision to spend that amount of money doesnt mean they can be treated like crap . Perhaps all ASU pilots should do a month of nights as a special constable in a city centre prior taking up their flying post Im sure they would soon see our point .
And before we get any references to gulf wars and kosovos etc etc the majority of the bobbies in their late 20's joining these days have been there and done it .

SilsoeSid

14th Dec 2007, 00:47

maxdrypowerPerhaps all ASU pilots should do a month of nights as a special constable in a city centre prior taking up their flying post Im sure they would soon see our point .

And before we get any references to gulf wars and kosovos etc etc the majority of the bobbies in their late 20's joining these days have been there and done it .

But it's not those bobbies (majority!! :suspect: ) who are saying the pilots should get out on the streets is it?

By the way, the majority of ex-mil pilots did not join up as aircrew, therefore you forgot the elements involving patrolling the streets of Belfast etc, where the locals used to either carry weapons of some description or at least run them, or perhaps the sniper was out that day, or Mr Bombmaker wanted to trade his wares. You also forgot Landing in lightly defended LSs in and around Sebrinica which should have been cleared of mines, but the Americans were supposed to have cleared it and you could never be quite sure. And then there's things like having Radar Warning Receivers going off in aquisition mode while on Ops in the Middle East. Let alone all the other specialist training and qualifications gathered in past careers, sleeping in hedges, trenches etc etc...

Most of all, I bet you have never had to do a canteen cowboy on a German Saturday night in a NAAFI full of p*SS*d up Tankies, Household Cavalry types, REMEs, Squawks and an assortment of others. Nottingham would be like a Kindergarten in comparison!

Must be great on the other hand to spend 5 years somewhere, perhaps even get an advanced driving course and then spend the next 25 years on the ASU. Loads of time to sit around and get bitter about those brave flyboys isn't there!

I bet when you get your CPL you'll be up in arms as why you should be on the unit as a pilot....what with all your police experience, there can be no better man. :rolleyes:

Bear in mind a top pay scale PC with in excess of ten yrs service draws 32 grand per yr .

£32k :confused: Don't forget the overtime, bonus payments etc...
Go on...put your typing where your mouth is, what did you get gross last financial year?

£5 says it was more than at least one of the pilots at your unit!
You want support!! I would suggest stop having a go at those you work alongside!

Anyway, thanks for letting me have a rant, just finished painting the kitchen and off to bed. http://www.smileyhut.com/sleep/sleep1.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

huntnhound

14th Dec 2007, 05:37

Sid, pass the fiver;)..... X 10

hnh

SilsoeSid

14th Dec 2007, 08:03

HnH,

Exactly, and I suspect come April it will be x12! :hmm:

Isn't it worrying that the Govt is in crisis against its Police Force. Except the Scottish bit! I thought this sort of thing only happened in African States and Banana Republics :eek:

By the way Mr Plods out there, why don't you listen to one of your own, and take his advice once you vote it in?

S**ike till you get better pay!!!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1322618#post1322618

And

Why is it, in the Police aviation world, pilots dont seem to stick the job?
You are always moving around without showing some commitment to your employers and colleagues?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127936

You also have a choice, walk!
I hear NZ, Aus & Canada are crying out for the good old British Bobbie. :E

Most of you are good, some of you are old and you are all British, so therefore unlikely to do anything too drastic. :ugh:

maxdrypower

14th Dec 2007, 10:26

Silsoe Sid I grossed exactly 32014 last year no ot no rewards no benefits whatsoever I wont go into the reasons . Shame your not on my unit Ill wager you wouldnt eb so vocal then . Thats the Problem with PPrune everyones a hero and everyone can throw around insults with impunity . However i wont lower myself to your level. My point was rasied solely due to a few of the remarks making the point that bobbies dont really deserve their pay .It was not a go at ASU pilots in general.

No I wont be crying out for a job on an asu when I get my CPL Im not that naive , I also dont fly helicopters .

So the majority of Aircrew didnt join as aircrew ??? Bollxxxs maybe not in the army they didnt ,talking through the wrong hole again arent we Sid .
And you are so brave goign into deal with drunken sqauddies , Oh my your my hero , in all my years Ive never been to a fight in a pub or club ? cos in civvy street they just dont happen you are so courageous . No wonder you became a pilot all that stress dealing with all those horrid things . Im gald it never happens in fluffy civvyville where everyone is cuddly and luvvy duvvy .
You really have made a pathetic post I would say childish in fact .I was in the military for many years inc NI ,Kosovo, Gulf like an awful lot of bobbies . But no we never expreienced any of those things of which you speak we all lived in little safe balloons .

volrider

14th Dec 2007, 12:50

Go on...put your typing where your mouth is, what did you get gross last financial year?
£5 says it was more than at least one of the pilots at your unit!

Sh*t Sid I would have to earn 10 grands overtime to match any of the pilots on my unit! I do not grudge them a penny they are worth it, but it would be nice for the "passengers" to get a bit of a crust now and then.. but talking to the Home Office and this new wonderful Home Sec is a bit like :ugh:

PPRuNe Radar

14th Dec 2007, 13:24

A few abusive comments have been removed from posts. Any future ones will just see the post deleted and the poster banned from this thread.

It's quite within everyones intelligence here to make your points without resorting to childish exchanges ... I think ;)

volrider

14th Dec 2007, 14:37

Having been "outed" before I am trying really really hard to be non abusive and a good boy:} But please Mr Moderator so far I have not seen too much hassle just banter.... Pilots and Observers thrive on it:E

maxdrypower

14th Dec 2007, 16:15

Yeh ill agree there, whilst It would appear silsoe sid appeared out of order with his insult but I did take this as banter and not a personal insult aimed at me , had we been in the crewroom the conversation would have been very similar and things would have been thrown but it would have been nothng more than banter. It is a sad state of affairs that within a few years cops arent gonna know how to engage in good natured banter as it will probably be a discipline offence to do so . Most are already shxt scared to open their mouths for fear of being put on a diversity course etc etc , long give gob****es and banter .Ill just reiterate what all cops already know whther they be airborne or stuck on the ground , T.J.F

volrider

14th Dec 2007, 16:37

fully agree with you Max, it seems I guess to the outsiders that we are uncooth thingies that hang off walls in damp places:E But long live crew room banter... God or Allah (depending on your preference) help us, should this be thrown to the polictically correct pile like a lot of other things in this life should we dare to offend someone!
Anyway back to thread.... The Wicked Witch went to Wolverhampton today and was going to speak to Police ... I would love to know what happened. The only good thing about her is that she has a lousy majority to hold on to
LAB 18,012
CON 15,296
So she may be out of a job herself making ends meet as best as possible soon:}

PPRuNe Radar

14th Dec 2007, 17:15

Be Courteous!

Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully... without insult and personal attack.

A quote from the PPRuNe rules ... that's where we are coming from. It was what everyone, as posters, signed up to.

If you want to swear at each other and trade insults in the crew room and pass it off as banter, that's your right to do so. But do it in the crew room.

In here we'd like to promote a friendly atmosphere where people can post freely, hear reasoned debate, and feel no shame or fear in doing so. Nothing to do with being PC or huggy fluffy, it's just the working philosophy which has made Rotorheads one of our top forums.

Interpretation of the written word is never as easy as when talking face to face, so don't be too offended if someone misinterprets what you call 'banter' as 'abuse'. PPRuNe will always err on the conservative side in that situation.

That said, let's not go overboard. There is no major problem in the Forum. A couple of potentially insulting comments have been removed. A 'caution' has been issued. No one has crossed the line and been banned or had posts removed on this thread. No reason why it shouldn't continue as such.

tigerfish

14th Dec 2007, 17:46

Sorry Pardon "Bugdevheli" didn't really mean to chew you out so strong, & my use of the term "Smart **se" was more generic than anything. It was just that I was a bit "Grumpy" and as usual when I just get a sniff of someone having a go at the lads & lasses that I was so proud to have served with for over 30 years, the red mists descend & I bite!
I am intensely proud of what UK Police Air Support has acheived in the past 25 years ( And in that - our pilots were pivotal for without their sheer professionalism we couldn't have done it)
I was too, - a strong supporter of our staff associations ( To those outside UK I shouldexplain that we are not allowed unions! ) & I want to see our pilots recognised for what they are & paid accordingly, & our observers recognised as front line officers, as they are in Scotland.
Tigerfish

SilsoeSid

14th Dec 2007, 20:17

Mr Radar Sir,

This conversation would take place in any crewroom around the bazaars with the inevitable let off of steam.

Last week it was 4x4s and the myth of the human cause of Climate Change. :suspect:

The week before that it was the size of 4x4s and how much room they take up in car parks. (Did you know that a Volvo XC90 is only 8 inches wider than a mini? ) :hmm:

In between somewhere was, overtime pay, bonus payments and bank holidays off. :{

Oh how the nights fly by, good job a couple in the unit have 4x4s. :hmm:

Anyway, this week it is coppers pay and how they are not getting the pay rise on the date it is/was due. After coconuttys earlier post, making quite clear, I'm sure we are on the same side and realise the fact that the rozzers aren't getting the pay rise when it was due and are in fact being deprived of money already earnt since September. :=

Normally called theft, but Governments don't do that sort of thing...do they. :eek:

It's just nice to have a battle of wits some times with the occasional unarmed man. ;)

bugdevheli

14th Dec 2007, 20:40

Tigerfish. No real offence taken, was just a bit arsey myself. I had consumed some wine Regards Bug

volrider

15th Dec 2007, 08:17

Last week it was 4x4s and the myth of the human cause of Climate Change.
The week before that it was the size of 4x4s and how much room they take up in car parks. (Did you know that a Volvo XC90 is only 8 inches wider than a mini? )

I waz there on those conversations and decided that I did not want a mini and a 4x4 was a sensible motor for women to drive the 1/2 mile trip to take the kiddies to school. Sadly due to my lousy pay increase I have had to let the maid and gardener go.. at this rate I will be as poor as the chief pilot:\

huntnhound

15th Dec 2007, 08:32

There have been some interesting comments here, however I must question if the government have got it right. After all a village bobby in Scotland clearing out three locals from the pub at midnight is clearly under much more pressure than a bobby in the city at 2am on a saturday morning, so is probably worth some extra pay:ooh: Or on the other hand perhaps all bobbies dealing with high volume crime in metropolitan forces should be paid more? Thats where the work is done isnt it? and probably the main reason the Police have helicopters in the first place:O
hnh

Coconutty

15th Dec 2007, 09:12

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/news/tm_headline=police-paymasters-join-criticism-of-jacqui-smith&method=full&objectid=20249965&siteid=50002-name_page.html

"Interesting" comments in the Birmingham Post, following up on Jacqui Smith's visit to Wolverhampton mentioned by volrider .....

.... Particularly the bit about the local Police authority who are responsible for paying their Officers, stating that they have the money to implement the award in full from the due date, they want to do this, and urge the Home Secretary to agree with the arbitration ruling.

... and there's a bit of a revolt going on in-house too :

A number of Labour MPs have called for the police to receive the pay rise and signed a House of Commons motion calling on the Government to reconsider.

They include, from the West Midlands, Richard Burden (Lab Birmingham Northfield), Lynne Jones (Lab Birmingham Selly Oak), John Spellar (Lab Warley), Jim Cunningham (Lab Coventry South), Brian Jenkins (Lab Tamworth), Janet Dean (Lab Burton), Paul Farrelly (Lab Newcastle-under-Lyme) and Charlotte Atkins (Lab Staffordshire Moorlands).

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

SilsoeSid

15th Dec 2007, 12:07

A couple of good points.

If the local Police Authority can afford to pay the officers the increased rate from when the increase was due, how does that affect national inflation?

HnH, are you suggesting some form of 'trade pay'? How do you compare a beat bobbie to one working on the ASU for example? ;)

Do the Met Officers still get a Met allowance? Why is that? Cost of living perhaps? (So many Questions) If so shouldn't that apply nationally at different levels?

Back to the crewroom 4x4s if I may. Is it safer, better environmentally and more cost effective for;

a. Wife to drive kids 10 mins across town to school in 4x4 and hubby to drive 35 mins to work in saloon.

b. Hubby to drive 35 mins to work in 4x4 and wife to drive kids 10 mins across town to school in saloon.

4x4........5* (pax) 2* (ped) NCAP ratings.
Saloon... 4* (pax) 1* (ped) NCAP ratings.

4x4 has 18 airbags/air curtains etc etc
Saloon has 6 airbags and an etc

Max_Chat

15th Dec 2007, 17:13

volrider

15th Dec 2007, 17:31

Back to the crewroom 4x4s if I may. Is it safer, better environmentally and more cost effective for;
a. Wife to drive kids 10 mins across town to school in 4x4 and hubby to drive 35 mins to work in saloon.
b. Hubby to drive 35 mins to work in 4x4 and wife to drive kids 10 mins across town to school in saloon.
4x4........5* (pax) 2* (ped) NCAP ratings.
Saloon... 4* (pax) 1* (ped) NCAP ratings.
4x4 has 18 airbags/air curtains etc etc
Saloon has 6 airbags and an etc
Sid
in answer
A: Make the idle cow walk it will be healthy for the ankle snappers and help keep her trim as well, bonus!
B: Drive what you like as you are a Man:ok:

timex

15th Dec 2007, 20:38

This has indeed been an interesting discussion. I think that the real point is not how much a Pilot gets paid or a Police Officer gets paid or a poor old squadie in Afghanistan facing death each day gets paid, but the underhand way the Government has behaved. It has lost the trust and support of the Police and have, IMHO, behaved in a dishonourable and crass manner. They will regret this decision for along time I am sure
Best point made so far. Either way this dispute goes I can only hope that it leads to the removal of this shower of ****e from power, if not then which other Public service will be next? The Military ?

Gaseous

15th Dec 2007, 21:46

the underhand way the Government has behaved

Thats what they do best.

I used to work for the NHS but they treated my profession in the same way. Staged payrises with a year on year falling behind in the pay stakes while the politicians awarded themselves double digit pay rises, plus they ruined the service for both providers and users. They constantly interfered with review body recommendations. They introduced masses of unhelpful bureaucracy and revenue raising regulation. I got out.

I feel for the police, I really do. They are at the mercy of this unscrupulous shower and the prospects don't look good.

If the government got rid of the useless clipboard toting, brochure printing, non productive, politically correct, bull**** ridden bureaucracy that has ruined our public services perhaps they could pay sufficient police sufficient pay to do the job they need to do.

huntnhound

16th Dec 2007, 12:57

"....If the government got rid of the useless clipboard toting, brochure printing, non productive, politically correct, bull**** ridden bureaucracy that has ruined our public services perhaps they could pay sufficient police sufficient pay to do the job they need to do.
..."

Gaseous...thats it...I`m voting for you at the next election. How about starting a party called "None of the above" ?:}

Silsoe Syd could be minister for political correctness;)

Hnh

volrider

16th Dec 2007, 17:52

can I be minister of political correctness punishment. ( thats to say the PC folk get it!!) Also can I be the new management broom... I know a great place to put that broom... in the new managers:E

volrider

16th Dec 2007, 18:03

A thought for the Home Secretary.....

A turkey was chatting with a bull.

'I would love to be able to get to the top of that tree' sighed the turkey, 'but I haven't got the energy.'
'Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?' replied the bull. They're packed with nutrients.'

The turkey pecked at a lump of dung, and found it actually gave him enough strength to reach the lowest branch of the tree.

The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second branch.

Finally after a fourth night, the turkey was proudly perched at the top of the tree.

He was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot him out of the tree.

Moral of the story:
Bull **** might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there..

SilsoeSid

20th Dec 2007, 20:46

maxdrypower

Silsoe Sid I grossed exactly 32014 last year no ot no rewards no benefits whatsoever I wont go into the reasons . Shame your not on my unit Ill wager you wouldnt eb so vocal then .

If I am allowed to go back to my earlier point, if max was to include in his statement above his competency threshold, housing allowance and special priority payments, we would find out that his wage would be directly comparable to a contracted pilot.

Now, bear in mind that he would be allowed to work overtime and also get bank holiday allowances, his wage in a normal year would in fact be higher than a lot, if not most, non directly employed pilots.

Going by the most recent adverts for pilots vacancies, Lancashire: £37671 - £44855, I would suggest that a top rate PC in a normal healthy year would, in certain parts of the country, be on more than the line pilots. :hmm:

Max admits to getting over £32k with no rewards or benefits. Add them on, as mentioned above, lets say £4,700 (figures from the front line!) that puts him on more than £36,700. Now add a bit of overtime and some bank holiday shifts and max gets to have a nice big smug, but keep it quiet, smile on his face. ;)

Shame your not on my unit Ill wager you wouldnt eb so vocal then .

This was discussed in a crewroom and was conducted in an adult way. I wonder why maxs crewroom would be different.
Perhaps facts muddy his views! ;)

manfromuncle

20th Dec 2007, 21:06

Mmm.... try being an instructor. £20k a year, no pay-rises for the last 4 years, no pension or any benefits whatsoever. And you've spent £50,000 of your own money to get there. That's the 'real' world.

I'd bite anyone's hand off for a police job for far less than they currently get paid. There are many of us out there that will.

sss

20th Dec 2007, 21:34

I'd bite anyone's hand off for a police job for far less than they currently get paid. There are many of us out there that will.

four police forces are currently recruiting, enjoy

http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/index.php

zorab64

20th Dec 2007, 21:42

Huntnhound - (post #34) needs a reply, albeit delayed:-
1. They can go on strike.
2. They can always draw on their millitary pension
3. They can leave and go and work on the rigs.
4. They can leave and work for a better paid ASU
I'd suggest these options are a little misguided := and not as simple as they sound:
1. - Only if directly employed and not really relevant if contracted, unless your company is unable to negotiate a more reasonable pay-rise on your behalf, in which case you might like to consider Option 3 or 4, in the latter case read "Company or ASU" for "ASU"!
2. - NO THEY CANNOT - it's been discussed many times on this forum that the lower level of salaries paid to Police Pilots has been the result of companies and forces taking advantage of the military pensions paid to many of the pilots. However, I know of at least one ASU where the non-pensioned CP is effectively paid less than his pensioned Line Pilots!
3. - Not quite so easy unless you're young, free & single - or are at least prepared to move to the Granite City!
4. - Similar to Option 3 - & see comments re Option 1.
All of this notwithstanding, I'd certainly agree with all comments relating to the underhanded manner in which the shower in charge of this country have dealt with this whole issue - as has been said, it's not the money, it's the principle. Doesn't help when a chancellor starts his tenure with a £20bn surplus & turns it into a £20bn deficit in 8 years:*

bananaskiner

20th Dec 2007, 22:09

if max was to include in his statement above his competency threshold, housing allowance and special priority payments, we would find out that his wage would be directly comparable to a contracted pilot.

Competency pay. - Not applicable (3 more years to work)*
Housing Allowance - Not applicable (officers joining after 1994 dont receive it)
Special Priority Payment - Not Applicable. My chief Constable doesnt think our job is difficult enough, technical enough, nor is it a difficult enough post to fill (apparently)*Competency pay is worth about 800 quid for the year when I do eventualy qualify for it.

My gross pay for the last year was just under 34k, WITH overtime working on bank holidays and one or two bits of covering for sickness. Im not allowed to do overtime for any other dept nor gain secondary employment for my days off 'cos my "managment" wont allow it.

Now Im a pretty sort of average cop / observer, in an average situation. So I dont think there will be much difference across the board. Im not pleading poverty, I earn more money doing this job than I can earn doing anything else now that im a bit longer in the tooth..;) and dont want to re-train to be plumber or something:}

But please dont tell me Im over paid.
Ive been kicked unconcious, rammed by a stolen transit van, bitten by HIV positive prozzies (on 2 occasions), and spat in the face by gypsies. The list of sh*t crappy things Ive had to is endless, just like any other cop.
I dont face any of that sh*t now, but if push comes to shove when my time in the air is finished, its back on the front line for me..!

AND Im particularly impressed by the news that civilian support workers are getting 2.5% this year AND it will be back dated to Sept..:\ So those units with directly employed Pilots will be in the situation where the Pilots get back-dated pay rises but the Observers wont.? now thats good for CRM isnt it. :E

volrider

21st Dec 2007, 09:30

Sid
I earned 38.5K last year however you seem to forget that to earn more I would have to work extra time, which you do not have to at all, your 10K plus gap over my wage will always be that and in fact with payrises and increments will increase... I do not cry over this as I think you guys should be on more money for just what you know. However the point being I and the others just dont like being shafted by the Government!

2896

21st Dec 2007, 16:07

IMHO Military pension = granny's inheritance/stock market win

maxdrypower

21st Dec 2007, 17:30

Good god sid that was one seriously delayed response . You are quite right in what you say had all those things been applicable then yes I would be able to earn what you say . However as was pointed out I do not get rent allowance (Although when I joined I was told I was getting it). I have just reached the qual point for Competency payment and this year due to circumstances beyond my control, I do not get SPP .
Yes I could work O/T but you will not find many full time members of ASU's who do . Most O/T is divisional and ASU's are not part of operational divisions or their budgets therefore they are not offered the O/T the bobbies on the street are . Plus when you look at losing driving quals , self defence quals , not being up to date with procedures etc etc most ASU bobbies are not much use on an ad hoc basis .Nor do most of them wish to be .
As for th whole O/T thing how many other jobs can people be forced , yes forced to work O/T for no money or have their days off cancelled every weekend with ony a reallocated day to show for it which you can then never take as there are no staff to allow for it etc etc etc, ASU pilots and agreed pax go home at the end of their tour . Bobbies on the street very rarely do .
But as has been stated for what I do I believe the pay is ok . It is the way the Govt has shafted us up the ass with sand contaminated vaseline that takes the pxxx. In fact to reinforce the pxxx taking point when you guys are next at your unit , if you havent already seen it ask the crew to show you the Home Secs Xmas message to the police , although Im sure if youve been on duty this week you will already have seen the red faces and steamy ears
And HAPPY XMAS TO ALL PILOTS AND TALKING BAGGAGE BE SAFE:}

bananaskiner

22nd Dec 2007, 00:24

Hmmm.

MaxDryPower, does that mean observers at your unit DO get SPP..??

Thats an interesting conumdrum then if some Chiefs decide we are worthy and some dont.? Yet we are all doing pretty much the same job :ooh:

I wonder what the numbers are between units that do and units that dont..? And has anyone succesfuly turned a decision around.:suspect:

Skidkid

22nd Dec 2007, 01:04

maxdrypower

Yes I could work O/T but you will not find many full time members of ASU's who do

Perhaps you ought to ask for a transfer to volrider's unit

volrider

22nd Dec 2007, 07:18

ah but the only O/T we get is when we are so hard up that we have to "dose" your crewmates tea so he goes off sick:}

maxdrypower

22nd Dec 2007, 10:29

No Banana , Im a relief and normally work vehicle crime thats why I get SPP the full time members of the unit certainly dont get it . And as we have quite a few reliefs even if Tea is" Dosed " they still dont get O/T they just call a relief . Our Crew will never get SPP as long as it exists . But then thats another story isnt it , another govt led divisive scheme to make people unhappy ho hum .
Quick edit , does anyones unit get SPP?

huntnhound

23rd Dec 2007, 09:15

Arent you still working just the one 10hr shift per day? or have you moved on from that? Surely the 24hrs a day, 7 days a week outfits should get the SSP? Arent they worthy of a small xmas bonus for working all those nights and weekends throughout the year:confused:

Hnh

Max_Chat

23rd Dec 2007, 09:36

I think the point is being missed. This is not a Peeing contest as to whether the Police should get more/less/equal pay to the Pilots, it is about a Government that has reneged on a promise. The Police have had allowances removed for newer officers and do give a lot of time due to good will (free 30 mins every duty etc) This is why the Government should recalculate the fallout that may arise from this poorly advised decision and pay them what they deserve.

ShyTorque

23rd Dec 2007, 10:36

Seems to me that a government that mistreats those who secure their stay in power and the security of the country are not long in power thereafter....

Maybe history will repeat itself soon, 30 years on. Remember the Christmas firemens' strike? I do; the military were made to cover for striking firemen, who had been badly treated.

It later transpired that the military were on even less pay. The military got their pay rise under a Conservative government......

Move over Gordon, you're overdue.

Having said that, my pay rise, in the private sector, this year is.....NIL. Christmas bonus? NIL.

volrider

23rd Dec 2007, 17:18

Ah well at least the PCSO's and Police Staff will be getting their pay backdated.... if the newspapers are right!
I think talking to the witch bitch from the home office is similar to :ugh:

Lord Mount

24th Dec 2007, 00:08

Hmmmmm......
I notice that the MPs want to award themselves a 10% pay rise (if the newspaper headlines I just saw are to be believed).

Its funny.... I didn't see them next to me in the tube tunnels after 7/7 sifting the forensic evidence and picking up the human remains so that the bereaved families could bury their loved ones.

Nor were they next to me every day for three weeks digging through tons of rotting waste on a stinking landfill site looking for significant evidence.

And yet I am not worthy of having my 2.3% backdate as they had already agreed.

Suffice to say I am a tad miffed.

LM