Deployment Routes across the N.Atlantic

[Razor61]

Why do RAF Deployments always route to the States via Lajes whereas the Royal Netherlands Air Force, German Air Force and USAFE etc route straight across the top with no enroute stop half way across the Atlantic even though they end up at the same destination?

[K.Whyjelly]

Is Lajes full of cheap booze and birds by any chance??? :}

[Confucius]

Southerly route = warmer seas = better chance of survival if ditching, esp. during the winter.

That, I believe is the theory.

(Lajes is seldom full of booze once a RAF Herc has been through.)

[Mr C Hinecap]

No they don't always route through the Azores. Nova Scotia is a perfectly good stopping-off point, but does get a bit snowy at times.

[Razor61]

Correct me if i'm wrong but i think the only RAF jets to route through without going via Lajes this year have been a couple of Typhoons on one or so occassions, every deployment otherwise has gone via Lajes (i'm probably wrong though).

How many days does it take the RAF to get to Nellis?
I'm sure the other European forces including USAFE which route via 56N/60N take less time to reach the same destination?

Also, up until a few years ago we were i believe the only country to add in a MARPAT aircraft into the trail to provide SAR Top Cover on the trails to Lajes and then beyond. Why was the RAF the only country to do so over the Atlantic and why have they stopped all of a sudden?

[Magnersdrinker]

Interesting last point Razor, I think it may be due to that certain aircraft that used to do that top cover being used elsewhere in the world. Saying that they do still provide that cover but not from Lajes

[14greens]

funny thing that the Italian air force
and French all routed through lajes when coming back from Red flag!!!!
How many jets do the germans trail with??
has an effect on how far they can go you know!

[plans123]

I don't think that they all route via Lajes, I know of a trail or two that has gone north this year.

[D-IFF_ident]

Winds aloft and enroute weather are significant players, but more so the fuel capacity and refuelling equipment of the tankers. Then there is also the consideration of the refuelling plan. Different Air Forces have different procedures for ensuring receivers don't run out of fuel and those procedures can determine the route of flight relevant to available diversion airfields.

Overall, the main driving factor on any overwater deployment is the guarantee that nobody in the formation will run out of fuel.

As for the question 'how long to get to Vegas?', 'how long is a piece of string?' There are so many variables, but if you take, say, 2 Tornado GRs, and one tanker to get them there, and the tanker and receivers stay serviceable, and you route by any available route from, say, Leuchars to Nellis, then it will usually take 3 days. Day one, Leuchars to Nova Scotia or Azores, land before nightfall.... Day two, on to next point that might be 2/3 of the entire route, or around 3/4, depending on where stop one was, then day three to Nellis. Changing the receivers, or the tanker type, or putting a force extention into the plan can get the journey down to 2 days fairly easily or just 1 with a bit of effort. But, then there is a balance between the cost of extra tankers to force extend versus an extra night in a posh hotel and a drainpipe full of fish in Lajes. The 3 day route might sound like costing more to pay for the tanker crews' rates, but it might still cost less than launching extra tankers, more direct routes and the associated SAR cover required.

I could go on.

[stickmonkeytamer]

Once you've met Carlos, the man in Lajes with his fingers in ever pie (ask to see a photo of his wife!), you'll understand why we route through Lajes...

SMT

[Confucius]

ahh yes, The Jackal, Excellent chap!

[Razor61]

14Greens
The Italians and French have always gone via Lajes because Italy and France are at a lower latitude than the British or Germans etc!
They go from their home bases straight across to Lajes. Why would they travel much further north and travel across the higher latitudes?

[MINself]

It might of been a particular set of circumstances but a couple of years ago I caught a lift on a VC10 on the northern route, via Gander (for a refuel) down the east coast of the US en-route to Belize.

A truly enjoyable and unique experience of flying seated facing in the opposite direction of travel, especially when after a few hours you glance out of the window prior to landing and double take at the scenery, going at what you think for a split second is the wrong way!

:ok:

[14greens]

razor6
for yr info having done trails both up north and the southern route, a lot depends on weather! available diversions, and somewhere sensible if the fighters divert that the tanker can go with them, obviously number of chicks in tow and available give
So lajes
bangor
LSV
3 days whats the problem with that??

not forgetting the germans still have hangers in goose and we dont so it crap weather they have some protection for the chicks

In other words, we do what works for us
they do what works for them

[Rossian]

A year or two ago the Portugese Air Force did SAR escort for some Belgian and German jets en route Maple Flag. The needed the cash so they hired themselves and the crew out. And we thjink we're hard-up?
The Ancient Mariner
PS Oh and they went the northern route.

[Razor61]

I get your points regarding the weather but that doesn't stop the USAF or whoever from going across the northern route whereas on the same day the RAF will choose (pretty much all year round) to go the southern route... and take longer to get there. (and break down on the way).

Is that the main case of routing through Lajes? Because the weather is obviously much better most of the year round compared with the North Atlantic northern route?

[goldcup]

The Northern Route is generally not done- the duty of care in the event of something bad happening to the receivers is generally given as a reason. This was batted up to AOC1 Gp and was his decision last time it was mooted.

UK-Lajes-East Coast USA generally gives the best spread of abort point airfields- would the FJ guys really be happy about diverting to Iqualit with 1000kg overhead?- and weather factors.

There hasn't been any UK MPA assets on a trail for a while AFAIK- the new SOP is for the FJs have the handheld maritime radios, so can summon help if the worst was to happen. (no, really)

With tanker availability being scarcer than in the old days, quite often the FJs are trailed as far as the East Coast and deployment further west is unaccompanied.

WRT the Portuguese MPA crew "hiring themselves out" the UKAAR force regularly trails European air forces in return for AT hours.

[Razor61]

Goldcup
Just the sort of reply i was after, thanks!

[D-IFF_ident]

Throw into Goldcup's, er, cup, the available fuel loads of the different ac. VC10 might have 70 tons, KC10 (or KDC10) might have up to 130 tons available. Then consider the differences between an RAF 'trail' and a USAF 'coronet'; each have different policies wrt aborts and fuel reserves. In summary, the available offloads and the national procedures could mean the difference between a one-shot crossing and a stage enroute. Or so I hear, etc.

[RileyDove]

Money is a little tight in Portugal at present. They have however l replaced their Puma's with Merlins and are MLU- ing their F-16's so maybe were not that much better off!

[BEagle]

Is 'Ten Percent Carlos' still sorting everything at Lajes?

Top chap - once put me up in the Presidential Suite at the best hotel on the island!

Re. the USAF/RAF trail planning, my colleagues tell me that they were planned for about 8 brackets on a Goose - N Europe trip. Whereas under UK rules only 3 or 4 would have been needed....:hmm:

They also told me of the rather chaotic American system where the fast jets do their own planning and just tell the tanker what they think they want - if anything goes wrong in flight some FJ child minder in the back of the 135 replans it. Whereas the UK's 'AARCs' plan the whole deal more effectively, using less assets and the crew are trained to rework the plan for in-flight events.

[flipflopman RB199]

Once got stuck in Lajes for an entire week, and it can be a VERY small island after you've visited every restaurant.....twice!

Once spent the best part of a night trekking the island in howling rain, with the intention of "Borrowing" the name plate for the town of "Fonte Bastardo". Imagine our deep joy at finding it securely fastened with 8 large U-Bolts, and us armed with nothing more imaginative than a pair of Gerbers! :ugh:


Flipflopman

[Lossie23]

Quite a few USAF deployments coming into Northern Europe go via Lajes, for example Spang A-10s returning from the US last month stopped in Lajes then routed over the SW of England and across the south of the UK to Germany. A few days later four Polish F-16s on delivery came via Lajes I gather and did roughly the same routing.

The USAF appear to have had a change of policy a few years back regarding Coronets (can't remeber the year but it was in the mid to late '90s I think) in that most USAF FJ units going to and from the Gulf from the US routed via USAFE bases in Northrn Europe. Whatever type was transiting tended to use a base that had the same type, so F-15s used Lakenheath while F-16s would use Spangdahlem for example. However, this policy changed and all FJ deployments going to the Gulf or points East started going the more direct Southerly route either stopping in Lajes or the first stopping off point in Europe would be at Moron (USAF have a presence there) or Rota (US Navy presence). Rota is favoured by USMC deployments. As a result, you don't get Coronets bound for the Gulf etc coming anywhere near the UK. Only when the final destination is in Northern Europe do US deploying FJs come up north.

[General Disaster]

You would quite often find the AARCs being told by 2 Gp that they have to be more efficient at the way they conduct business, only to be told by 1 Gp that as far as they were concerned the Northern route was not a player (for most of the time) because of weather/sea temps. That said the weather at Lajes can be a pig for a vast majority of the year and please tell me if you know anybody who has not been delayed at Lajes due to strong x-winds. On balance Lajes was the preferred destination.

As to timescales there is absolutely no reason why you cannot reach the East Coast of the States/Canada in a day even with refuelling at Lajes. The problem is that you face an uphill battle as soon as delays start creeping in. So, if a Trail did run to plan and everyone was airborne on time from the UK to Lajes, there was plenty of daylight/Crew duty left to mount a second leg from Lajes. Unfortunately, the airspace reservations etc etc that the AARC has gone to considerable length to arrange would not be valid. Therefore, to the gutter press and fun police, it comes across as the though the tanking force/AARCs have arranged a damn good jolly.

[lj101]

I know of at least 10 trails this year that have not delayed in Lajes either arriving or departing with strong x winds/bad weather/ sea states etc etc etc. Where did you get your information from?

[General Disaster]

Information that I have amassed from doing many trails myself. Oh the happy times sitting on the island of Terceira waiting for the wind to die down. Another beer sir!!!:ok:

[goldcup]

Don't really see where you two guys are coming from/arguing about.

Yes, sometimes the trail arrives on time and it would be possible (although I put it to you not particularly sensible) to mount another westbound leg to the eastern seaboard in the same day. However, given that an ALTRV booking cannot be rolled indefinitely, surely a pragmatist would book the airspace from UK to Lajes on day one, consolidate the assets and press further west with what is available after the engineers have worked their magic on day two.

Generally if the trail delays in Lajes it is due to weather on the eastern seaboard. Going on the northern route wouldn't make a difference in this respect.

For all the faults you can lay at the door of 2Gp, I put it to you that pressurising the AARCs in to doing translatlantic trails in a day is not one of them.

Trails are a variable feast- no two are the same.

[General Disaster]

Think you need to check your knowledge of ALTREVs, particularly since the changes that were introduced by CARF and EUCARF. No room for pragmatism I am afraid. If the AARCs did plan for a second crossing on the same day and,alas, there were to be some unserviceabilities culminating in a night stop Lajes, the whole trail would have to wait potentially for another 3 days whilst the ALTREV was further secured.

Securing airspace is no guarantee. Therefore, the pragmatist would build in a lot of flex, which means the trail will take longer (number of days) than is feasibly possible, but gets there sooner.

Hope that helps
Regards
GD

[FFP]

I think Goldcup knows a thing or 2 about trails ......

[General Disaster]

Knows about Trails as a capt or as an AARC.

[D-IFF_ident]

Of course, the ALTRV (Not ALTREV) is only procedurally applicable to FAA airspace (as explained in the foreword to FAA order 7610.4K), In other areas it is an agreed policy governed by MOUs. Nevertheless, EUCARF does provide the pathway for ALTRV requests for trails/coronets in Europe and are not able to extend AVANAs if there are other trails/coronets booked along the same route/levels as the delayed formation. So it could realistically be considered a gamble to book 2 successive ALTRVs on the same day. Etc. :cool:

[General Disaster]

Is it possible to book 2 successive ALTRVs on the same day without EUCARF smelling a rat. If so I shall let the US Sgt in the cell know. :eek:

[FFP]

Knows about Trails as a capt or as an AARC.
Maybe both ;)