Hats- why bother?

[stickmonkeytamer]

My Friday morning rant:

Why do we still wear headdress? It's too hot in the summer, and too easy to be blown off in strong winds. By all means keep them for ceremonial duties, but can't we just be authorised not to wear them on station.

When 'one' diverts, 'ones' hat is not always packed for such eventuality. Maybe it should be part of the outbrief for bad weather ops...

* In the GREEN
* Authorised
* LL route booked and copy left in Ops
* Hat, just incase you divert so that the SWO doesn't shout at you whereever you just managed to get into with your last 8 lbs of fuel.

Is a helmet acceptable to wear around the stn if I've not got my hat??:ugh:


SMT

[OCCWMF]

Standards dear boy.

If you can't do it well, do it with style.

[sitigeltfel]

If you had to divert, you could always make yourself a foldy up one with that map that is no longer of any use.

[Occasional Aviator]

When you're as bald as I am, you might revise your opinion on this, particularly if it's a bit breezy in the winter months.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

How would you salute or, more importantly, return salutes?

Anyway, isn't that why the Junior Service has blue chip bags?

[MG]

If you have a look at the RAF RW briefing format (SOP 18), hats are mentioned in there! Then again, SOP 18 is not a briefing guide, it's a longing guide!

[ORAC]

How would you salute or, more importantly, return salutes? I find my arm goes and up and down just as well whether I'm wearing a hat or not.

[Wader2]

When I started flying we generally wore No 2 trousers under the flying suit and No 2 jacket over the flying suit. It went without saying that we went to the aircraft with shirt and tie and SD Hat.

Later this was upped to No 1s, jacket over flying suit - very smart with the blue FS underneath :}.

Then on the Vulcan Mr Roe very thoughtfully provided an SD Hat stowage for the Nav Rad and AEO. We also used to carry a rather large folding garment carrier into which 5 sets of uniform were stowed. At Prestwick on day dark we emerged from our aircraft in our No 2 Zuit Suits whereas the Boss's crew next to us only had flying suits. As I was properly dressed I was despatched to the terminal to buy toothbrushes etc - for them.

By the time I regressd to Shacks I used to carry a complete set of Civvies in my para-bag. Rather more useful and used quite frequently.

In 6 months in Acsension, despite orders to the contrary, no one wore hats except the 3 sqn ldr, the maj, the 2.5 and the Commander.

Now it is a 'hunt the hat' on rare occasions.

Headress OTOH, like Occasional Aviator is a necessity to stave off wind burn. However a grateful Air Force meets my needs with a free baseball cap emblazoned Royal Air Force.

[sitigeltfel]

How would you salute or, more importantly, return salutes?

Had an LAC who solved this problem. He interpreted the rules on not saluting when without hat, literally. Every time an officer approached he whisked off his beret and sauntered on. Eventually was released from service classified as an "admin burden".

[Two's in]

Hats also protect against Woodpecker attacks.

[ZH875]

Without hats, what would officers who drive to work in Volvo Estates wear, to look even more stupid.....

[Roadster280]

What's next? No boots? Shoes are ever so much more comfy.

Why wear DPM when on duty guarding buildings, which inherently bear little resemblance to DPM?

Why polish buttons, they still work if they're dirty.

Why iron your shirts and trousers, they're the same colour and fit, creases or not.

How about calling people Sir? Doesn't it inflict an inferiority complex on the lower rank?

Since we're not actually going to shoot Ms Rugmuncher of CND when she scales the fence, why do we arm our prowler patrols?

Or how about just cracking on, and doing things professionally?

[Maple 01]

I was with Roadster280 right up until his last line.....

At STC because of the multiplicity of Officers it was considered bad form to wear a hat - until the new Stash didn't get an ego boosting wave one morning and it was hats, silly, helicopter landing pad No1 Mk1 for all

[dallas]

What's next? No boots? Shoes are ever so much more comfy.

Why wear DPM when on duty guarding buildings, which inherently bear little resemblance to DPM?

Why polish buttons, they still work if they're dirty.

Why iron your shirts and trousers, they're the same colour and fit, creases or not.

How about calling people Sir? Doesn't it inflict an inferiority complex on the lower rank?

Since we're not actually going to shoot Ms Rugmuncher of CND when she scales the fence, why do we arm our prowler patrols?

Valid points Roadster - I'm not keen on ironing. :}

In 10 years I wonder if they'll call you a visionary. :hmm:

[Roland Pulfrew]

Or how about just cracking on, and doing things professionally?

Sums it up perfectly I think. :D:D

[South Bound]

Methinks SMT has got the bites he was looking for. Fish for tea, well it is Friday after all!

[Green Flash]

SMT
I'll see your hats, and raise you flying suits when not flying:E

[normally right blank]

"Hats" - whatever their persuasion - is an FOD hazard on a flightline.
("off" or secured)
Best Regards

[wz662]

I'm surprised that a goverment beancounter hasn't proposed a no hats rule for the army. After all the only civvies wearing hats for everyday use are chavs and who wants to be one of them!
A no hats rule for the army will also get rid of all those 'cap badge' arguments used to keep the likes of the South Essex Light regiment of foot alive. - No cap no cap badge. Anyway it must cost billions keeping all those different coloured berets on order. :rolleyes:

[WhiteOvies]

Normally right blank
What about flight deck 'hats' which protect your head, hearing and eyesight during launch and recovery? Worn properly they are essential PPE and not a FOD hazard at all. Chip bag hats on the other hand...;)

[Green Flash]

Whilst playing with the spams recently I saw them saluting each others beige wooly hats. Most bizarre.

[Backwards PLT]

Strangely, I work somewhere where noone wears hats (or salutes :eek:) - aircrew or support and the point is it makes them more professional not less.

Of course I mean more professional aviators, focused on achieving the mission. We could (and probably will) debate endlessly whether it makes you a more professional officer!

[normally right blank]

Sorry!
What I meant:
If not secured properly - not to be worn in a flight line enviromemnt.

[Confucius]

After 17 years in the air force, I still occasionally forget to put it in my car in the a.m. from time to time. It just ain't natural to wear one d'ya see?

[Door Slider]

The RW SOP18 brief ensures that each member of the crew takes a different hat (beret, chip bag or No1) so we all look different to annoy the army, oh and different jackets too!

But if you go down the flying suite when flying arguement why are there so many office workers wearing greens instead of blues??

Landing with 8lbs of fuel, are you flying a motor glider?? :}

Not too fussed about taking my beret away with me but I ensure I have my dancing shoes and six shooters :ok:

[jindabyne]

SMT

You'll find your SD hat useful when sitting on the floor outside Woolies post your retirement

[14greens]

so what are the stats for engine fod damage caused by a hat, military or otherwise!! and how does a chip bag hat damage differ from SD hat, ooh and god forbid ya might have a beret
Bet when ya go to BA and they tell ya to wear yr hat in public you will not winge

[Adam Nams]

By the time I regressd to Shacks I used to carry a complete set of Civvies in my para-bag. Rather more useful and used quite frequently.

I remember the 'Royalty' at Lossie always carried a spare set of civis, including shoes, in his rucksac.

"You never know what hotel you might end up in for the night and it is very bad form to wear flying boots in the restaurant"

[Blacksheep]

"If you can't fight, wear a big hat." ;)

[Magnersdrinker]

How about calling people Sir? Doesn't it inflict an inferiority complex on the lower rank?


Well we all **** the same , breath the same air. Calling somebody sir does piss me off especially if its one that thinks he has gods right to fly an aircraft and is deemed to be better than anyone else !!!

[Two's in]

Actually, it's not widely known but the RAF now has a scheme whereby anyone can fly an aircraft and be called "sir". All you have do do is submit your application to OASC, either from the Careers Office or via the Orderly room if currently serving. Then its simply a case of passing a few tests, doing some interviews, show a bit of initiative and before you know it, you'll be on the Pilot's Course and being saluted - if wearing a hat of course.

Recent studies show that those most likely to be successful at OASC are those self-starting, stable extroverted types who didn't have the patience to wait for God to give them that right, but took it themselves. As for those who try and fail, most go through life much happier that they tried for something that was difficult, but now know why they didn't make it, rather than wonder for ever if they could have done it. I've heard that a few individuals can feel bitter and twisted at the good fortune and self-determination of the successful candidates, but I have not encountered this yet.

[Green Flash]

But of course you don't have to call anyone sir (or ma'am)! Nip down to Handbrake House, hand in your 1250 & march smartly out of the main gate. Easy.
;)

[ZH875]

How about calling people Sir? Doesn't it inflict an inferiority complex on the lower rank?

Only if the lower rank is a complete :mad: to$$er.

I speak as a member of the "minion" corps.

However, some were called "Sir" out of respect, and some were called "sir" because I had to.

Thankfully, most of them were respectful Sirs.


Now I do object to calling MP's 'sir'.

[Pontius Navigator]

I've heard that a few individuals can feel bitter and twisted at the good fortune and self-determination of the successful candidates, but I have not encountered this yet.

I was taken to task by one such on Pprune a while back but I seem to remember there were many dissenting voices who argeed. Once the disapointment passed and the pressure was off they often felt better for having tried and then being chopped.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Magners Drinker

May I suggest that you stop drinking Magners. It would appear that drinking it turns you into a blithering idiot, particularly if you reread your infantile posts on this topic and the FGR4 topic.

[Pontius Navigator]

Whilst playing with the spams recently I saw them saluting each others beige wooly hats. Most bizarre.

Item in today's Sunday Telegraph, old boy, 75, told to remove is hat in a store because it obscured his face for the CCTV. He said he was of a generation that wore a hat and only removed it for funerals or Royalty.

Had a similar experience at a US BX, airman at the door telling everyone to remove their headress on entering the store.

[goudie]

'Magners Drinker

May I suggest that you stop drinking Magners. It would appear that drinking it turns you into a blithering idiot, particularly if you reread your infantile posts on this topic and the FGR4 topic.'

HEAR HEAR!

[Tightflester]

To Test & Evaluate Heavy Aircraft, amongst other things :ok:

[SirToppamHat]

Well I got it Tightflester, but I am afraid most people on here won't.

Even so, get your coat! ;)

STH

[Tightflester]

Sir, Yes Sir... coat retrival in progress :)
Might as well get my hat too..... or do I really need one? :ooh:

[plebby 1st tourist]

I thought that initially too, I only work over the road!

[GPMG]

It's called tradition, which is one of the aspects that help make the British forces rather good, i.e standards.

Also some of us have a 'hat' that were rather proud off. :)

Mind you, you've got a badge with wings for that.

[K.Whyjelly]

Where would that quaint English tradition of "Your hat, My office" go if headgear disappeared??? :}

[RileyDove]

Still doesn't explain why the naff chip bag hat is an object of affection to some!

[henry crun]

I presume from what has been posted on this thread, that officers are no longer expected to wear a hat/cap on base when in civvies.

Standards have been lowered. :)

[goudie]

'Still doesn't explain why the naff chip bag hat is an object of affection to some!

Well it looks smarter than that awful beret.

[mustflywillfly]

Quote:
How would you salute or, more importantly, return salutes?
I find my arm goes and up and down just as well whether I'm wearing a hat or not.


Whilst living on the Cranditz married patch this fish head found it most amusing when, in civvies, in his car, he was saluted by the bods on the gate on every ocassion. Come to think of it I think they even saluted the wife!

Have the RAF always had the policy of saluting an Officer whether wearing headress / uniform or not?

I was always briefed that on dispersal / after flight line headress was FOD and should be removed. Everywhere else on station headress should be worn whether in a grow bag or any other acceptable uniform.

In the RN you find that most T42 Captains insist that their officers wear a shirt and tie despite the fact that a short sleeve shirt, negative tie (3C) is perfectly acceptable uniform. The point is that you just live by the rules and get on with it don't you?

[ZH875]

Have the RAF always had the policy of saluting an Officer whether wearing headress / uniform or not?


The RAF have always (whilst in uniform) saluted the Queens Commision, whether the holder of that commision is wearing uniform with or without a hat.

If the Saluter is without a hat, then a salute is not given, but an acknowledgement of the Queens Commision is still required. eg. 'Good Morning Sir/Ma'am'

Regarding saluting an holder of the Queens Commision who is wearing civilian clothing, if the saluter recognises the person in civilian clothes is a holder of the Queens Commision, then that Commision is acknowledged with a salute, and an acknowledgement that a salute has been given to the Queens Commision is still required.

So the RAF never salute an Officer, they salute the Queens Commision.

[forwardassist]

I have had a recent arguement with a friend about how all of the armed forces are professional and take their service ethos very seriously. He was adamant that the Royal Air Force were nothing but "civilians who all wore the same clothes from time to time" and that the majority had no service ethos whatsoever. I argued strongly for the contrary.
Reading this thread, however, has done my arguement no good at all and made me think I should reconsider my opinion! :ugh:

[Wader2]

So the RAF never salute an Officer, they salute the Queens Commision.

We were also taught to salute an officer's wife as an acknowledgement much in the same way that we would raise or doff our hat when in civvies (see Henry Crun).

Similarly saluting on entering an officer's office. One thing I was never clear on though was the protocol for an senior officer entering the office of a junior officer ~ when I went through that possibility probably did not arise :}.

Remember the old wartime films? Everyone wore head dress in the briefing room? You saluted when you entered on the assumption that a more senior officer was present - that was true in the 60s. Now you just slope in sideways and hope no one notices.

[goudie]

All this chat about hats, saluting, rank etc. brings the following story to mind.
An Army Captain was walking along the road of a RAF Station, a Ch/Tech walking in the opposite direction gave the Captain a smart salute whereupon the Captain (intrigued by the upside down stripes) stopped the Chief and asked what was his rank. When told he said 'What would have been your rank had you been in the Army'?
'Brigadier sir' came the quick response.

True I swear

[Il Duce]

On the subject of berets - I found it irritating (and hot) that, when in Belize, we had to wear what is basically a woolly hat when it was regularly 95 degrees in the shade. A sombrero would have been far more effective!

[GPMG]

Fair point, you guys should have a version of the Jungle hat, seeing as your working in some of the warmer locations in the world.

[bayete]

Wader,
When I was holding at Cranditz I was saluted by the Gp Capt when he entered my office in Whittle Hall, I was a mere Acting Pilot Officer.
I returned the compliment in his office 3 hours later with 2 Flt Lts after he discoverd that I was one of the 3 culprits he was looking for when he entered my office. :}
That was one of those your hat my office, no tea and biscuits moments.
From then on if I entered another officers' office, and I had my hat, on I would salute regardless of rank. Never reallly came up that much though.

[Sir Vical Smear]

My first boss always had a picture of Her Majesty the Queen behind his desk. His comment was 'if you don't like saluting me, or my Commission then you will bloody well salute her'. Here here I say! As for all that crap spouted earlier about breathing the same air, sh!tt!ng the same and not liking the person you are saluting. Yes we are all human beings but some are afforded Commissioned command and like it or not we are higher up the pecking order than you; so buckle-up lad, stand tall, salute smartly and be punctillious about it.

[Blacksheep]

He was adamant that the Royal Air Force were nothing but "civilians who all wore the same clothes from time to time" and that the majority had no service ethos whatsoever. I argued strongly for the contrary.
Reading this thread, however, has done my arguement no good at all and made me think I should reconsider my opinion!It is now thirty years since I handed in my blue suit and stopped wearing a hat or saluting the holders of Her Majesty's Commission. It is true that I was a scruffy, insubordinate civilian in uniform; but the fact that I regularly browse this forum, am proud to have served and maintain an active interest suggests that the RAF does indeed have a service ethos - no matter how odd it may seem to those who have never been a part of it.

Once a Brat always a Brat.
Through Difficulties To The Cinema

[Gainesy]

Well said Blackie, couldn't have put it better.

Remember the earlyish days of Harrier deployed ops. No saluting in the Field, snipers, blah etc.

A few of 1(F) Troop's Leapin Heaps deploy to the far reaches (Vigo Wood, at the western end of Wittering). Mate gets a tug for not saluting, "But we're in the Field, snipers, blah etc".
"No, this is a practice Field exercise, not a Field exercise".:ugh:

Boys' Ploy, if it ever kicks off, salute everyone you don't like.:E

[SirToppamHat]

Just my thoghts off the cuff, but I believe they reflect the current policy and etiquette.

I certainly don't ever recall saluting an officer's wife and wouldn't unless she were herself entitled to it. What if your were a sqn ldr and the air cdre were married to a flt lt?

Saluting entering an officer's office yes, irrespective of relative rank. I do find it a bit odd that some places (SHQs in the main) feel the need to have a sign that says words to the effect that 'headdress is to be worn in this building...'

Commissioned officers being saluted in or out of uniform is still correct and whilst stn cdrs and air offrs normally have flags and plates on cars, there is still a requirement to salute someone you recognise in a vehicle if you would normally be required to salute them outside it.

Wearing headdress in civvies was always intended to allow a salute to be returned (by raising the hat in response).

STH

[Roland Pulfrew]

For those of you who might need a little guidance in the sphere of etiquette, CESR lectures at IOT ISTR, may I recommend this excellent site:

http://www.thechap.net/

;)

[goudie]

I've always thought the American Forces custom of saluting with hats off was rather vulgar. Mind you they don't know how to salute anyway (longest way up 2, 3, -shortest way down) for those who've forgotten..................................now where was I?

[ArthurR]

Could never have done without my beret when on the Hunter line at Valley, IPN starter system and never a glove to be found, they have more use then just hidding long hair :E

[philrigger]

;)

During the 1950/60s I was a patch brat and lived in quarters at Cranwell. Cadets had to wear hats in civilian clothes at all times. When they went to the Astra cinema they always sat in the back row at rested their hats on a wall about 4' high behind them.

I was the little bastard that used to run along and knock all the hats off.

By the way my dad was the cinema manager!





'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[TonkaEngO]

goudie - ref post #51

When did Chf Techs wear upside stripes? Not a trick question, just wondered

[ArthurR]

Middle sixtys, corporal techs 2 stripes upside down, J/T's 1 stripe up side down, oh nearly forgot sargent techs yes you've guessed 3 upside down :}

[goudie]

goudie - ref post #51

'When did Chf Techs wear upside stripes? Not a trick question, just wondered'

Tonka, you mean 'upside down stripes'.
Many years ago (50's early 60's) Ch/Techs were on a par with Flt Sgts and wore a crown over reverse stripes (The Technician route to promotion). It confused the Brown & Dark Blue Jobs and to us J/T's was a much revered rank. It changed in the early 60's to the prop. over normal stripes of today and Ch/Techs were placed a rank below Flt Sgt's. To many Chiefs the removal of the crown and loss of status was a devastating blow. That's as I recall it. Me, I wore mine the right way up......with a prop. many years ago. Good rank to be in.

[ArthurR]

Goudie, surely it was the non tech ranks that had their strips upside down :}
Tech ranks meant something then

[polecat2]

The 1964 Trade Structure, as it was then called, did away with the technical trades' upside down stripes.
I remember this well as I finished apprentice training that year and instead of the stripe, I had to make do with a four-bladed prop.
Polecat

[WhiteOvies]

Got myself very confused once when as a mere Lt I was saluted by a Sqn Ldr as he entered the rects office I was working in. Luckily a handy Chief Tech explained it to me :\
Quite agree that you are saluting the commission not the person.
Hats on indoors? Not unless for ceremonial or disciplinary reasons IMHO.

[izod tester]

The parallel technician and management rank structure was replaced in 1964. As others have said, prior to that the technician stream were identified by the fact that their chevrons were worn point up. The rank that has not been mentioned was that of Master Technician - equivalent to Warrant Officer.

Sadly, when I left Halton in 1966, I had to sew my chevrons on with the points at the bottom. :(

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Most if not all trades could include Technician ranks. There were many in Stores, General Office and Accounts. I remember one Cpl Tech in the cookhouse at Hereford who got very shirty if he was referred to as Cpl. So what did we call him? Not a cook, thats for sure.

The Technician rank structure ran from 1951 to 1964.

[goudie]

Polecat,
I sympathsize with you. Sewing on my J/T stripe was a proud moment. Why it was replaced with a 4 bladed prop. confounded most people. Surprised it's lasted so long in the jet age!
I believe some original 'V' crewchiefs were Master Techs.

AARON
I don't recall trades outside the tech group and medical qualifying for technician status.

[Shack37]

ArthurR

Three upside down was a Senior Tech. And they all wore hats (back on thread):ok:

s37

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Goudie


I do. I worked with some.

[x10ge]

We were always taught that saluting was merely paying compliments (my Dad was Army) and if the recipient were tardy in returning the salute then 'compliments sir' would usually be enough to be saluted in return.


Yes its a tradition and if we lose that then what was the point of all the bull. If you march you may as well march in step otherwise you just look a pr@tt anyway.


I now wear a hat to keep my bald pate warm - sad really.


And Izod - if you were lucky enough to leave Halton with a non commision then you were a clever lad werent you?


(I usually need a scotch to get my fingers going on here)

[ArthurR]

Your quite correct shack, memorey dims with age, but I do remember when I became a J/T, I had the same rank on my arm as when I was a
B.E. Felt like advancing backwards, back to the hat, as B.E.'s we wore the four bladed prop in our hats as well, didn't get the RAF cap badge till we passed out.:*

[TonkaEngO]

Thanks 'Vets' - I'll get some time in.....

[Blacksheep]

Three upside down was a Senior Tech. And they all and wore hats (back on thread)...or berets with the slack just pulled out horizontally to the right and the loose ends of the adjusting tapes hanging down the back.

And brown dustcoats.

It was a Senior Tech/Chiefy tradition... :)

[goudie]

Why do we salute? I believe it originated from the custom of Knights, who, upon meeting other Knights, the King or those commisioned by the King to represent him, threw up their right hand, palm open, to show they were not concealing a weapon. It then became a tradition. Hence we (you) salute the Queens Commision........ when properly dressed of course!

[Gainesy]

So why do the RN salute palm down?

Or, I suppose, why do the later non-RN Services not salute like the Fisheads?

[ThreadBaron]

To keep the sun or spray out of their eyes ......... ?:cool:

[Roadster280]

So why do the RN salute palm down?

So that their officers can read the non-PC message tattooed on the outside of their little fingers.

[goudie]

Knights also raised their visors so they could be recognised. They would probably have done this with the palm facing down.
"As an aside the reason why the army and RAF salute with palm outwards whilst the navy salute palm down is palm outward salute is a reaffirmation of an oath of allegiance, the navy being considered always loyal to the monarch are not required to make such an oath."
I was always told that the Navy salute palm down because Queen Victoria did not like to see sailors' dirty hands.

[Fareastdriver]

Just after the 1964 change of insignier came out a brand new keen as mustard J/T out of Henlow gave me a blistering salute and I returned it. As he walked away I remarked.
"Is that a new ATC uniform?"

Ouch!!!!

Didn't tell us ignorant aircrew about it, did they.

[Northern Circuit]

Well it looks smarter than that awful beret.


I only ever saw rock officers with decently shaped berets. If you do nothing to them they will always look rubbish.

[14greens]

well obviously hats are just for show in the pocket not the head
While in Bath today UAS student in flying suit!!! (why is the question) but there ya go
When i suggested he put his hat on the question came back "Why?"
give the lad his due he was quite embarressed as he was with is girlie at the time but did agree with me when i suggested if he wants to wear the uniform he should show some pride
Time to ring his boss now i think hee heeeeee
ooh am being a victor meldrew today

[GPMG]

Regarding 'throwing one up'. I find it strange that RM salute open handed whilst RN salute palm down.

Taken from the RAF website:

"The custom of saluting commissioned officers relates wholly to the commission given by Her Majesty the Queen to that officer, not the person. Therefore, when a subordinate airman salutes an officer, he is indirectly acknowledging Her Majesty as Head of State. A salute returned by the officer is on behalf of the Queen.As with many things in military history, the origin of the custom of saluting is a little obscure. In a book called 'Military Customs', Major TJ Edwards suggests that 'saluting and the paying of compliments may be said to proceed from the exercise of good manners'. Indeed, if you take the word saluting literally, it is merely the offering of a salutation or greeting, which in the military must be reciprocated.
A more romantic theory dates from medieval times which suggests that victors at the many tournaments of the day shielded their eyes with their hands when receiving their prize from the Queen, rather than be dazzled by her beauty. This is very unlikely, but far more chivalrous. A far more plausible tale relates that the military salute is merely a form of offering an open hand as a token of respect and friendship in much the same way as a handshake does. Knights in the Middle Ages greeted each other by raising the visor of their armour, an action not unlike a military salute.
During the 17th Century, military records detail that the 'formal act of saluting was to be by removal of headdress' For some time after, hat raising became an accepted form of the military salute, but in the 18th Century the Coldstream Guards amended this procedure. They were instructed to 'clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by'. This was quickly adopted by other Regiments as wear and tear on the hats by constant removal and replacing was a matter of great concern. By the early 19th Century, the salute had evolved further with the open hand, palm to the front, and this has remained the case since then.
The RAF salute is essentially the same as that of the Army. When RAF personnel hand salute they display an open hand, positioned such that the finger tips almost, but not quite, touch the hat band. The Naval salute differs in that the palm of the hand faces down towards the shoulder. This dates back to the days of sailing ships, when tar and pitch were used to seal the timber from seawater. To protect their hands, officer wore white gloves and it was considered most undignified to present a dirty palm in the salute so the hand was turned through 90 degrees."

[Gainesy]

Sounds logical. Hmm, wonder if that Yank nutter is around, the one who gets het up about not saluting WOs?:}

[Kitbag]

Oh please, don't get HIM started again!

[Shack37]

ArthurR,

As an ex BE (40th) I seem to remember the brass four bladed prop was worn on the left sleeve. The hat badge was the normal RAF but the hat band was chequered (colours indicating ITS, Wing etc) instead of black.

How sad, being so picky, sorry.

s37:confused:

[CuNim1]

Talking uniforms, do flt sgts still wear white overalls. My Dad was supposed to in the 1970's, I think it lasted a week!

[goudie]

'I find it strange that RM salute open handed whilst RN salute palm down'


I think you'll find the Royal Marines have never considered themselves as 'Navy' .

[GPMG]

Your quite right goudie, to me they were just our taxi service, however in the cold light of day we are part of the Navy (although not in disgrace).

Just wondered why the salutes are different. I wonder if they were different during the times of the RMLI, time for some research methinks.

[ArthurR]

Shack yes you are right again, come to think of it, Checkered band and Entry colours (colors for our americans) behind the badge. Mine was 48th

[L J R]

I'm a Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr and I don't need a hat to do my job.

[Blacksheep]

One was under the impression that the salute originated in the custom of forelock tugging. Because peasants couldn't afford hats and went bare headed, when the master rode by on his horse, they jumped into the ditch to clear his path and tugged their forelocks to their masters as a substitute.
The master would return the greeting by touching his hat as if to remove it, but without actually removing it for mere peasants.

When riding past a lady, a master would whip off his hat and bow deeply in his saddle - ostensibly out of respect, but in reality to better enable him to peer down her decolletage without causing embarrassment to either party. The lady would reciprocate by doffing her parasol in order to give him a better view. :oh:

[Fareastdriver]

I only ever saw rock officers with decently shaped berets. If you do nothing to them they will always look rubbish.

All the RAF Regiment officers I knew looked very smart, by themselves.

[goudie]

Hats, Who needs them?
'I'm a Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr and I don't need a hat to do my job.'

Nor the three rings on your sleeve presumably!

[fawkes]

Concur RN salute to hide calloused and tarry seamen's palms. (no smut please) Touching/doffing hats continued quite late. There is a splendid passage in Captain Marryat's "Mr Midshipman Easy" (famous for the excuse for an illigitimate child "that it was only a little one") where the hero, a philosopher's son and egalitarian decides the Service is for him because everybody seems to polite in constantly raising their hats to one another.

A propos non Frank Spencer berets: after the plastic lining has been removed a little time out on the upper deck in salt spray and p*ssing rain generally does the trick.

[Wader2]

I was told the empty hand salute is also a sign that the person is unarmed and means no harm.

A salute with a sword is very elaborate but finishes with the blade pointing to the ground; effectively the saluter has bared his body and shows no threat.

en garde

[stickmonkeytamer]

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/opso1/grad.jpg
nice uniforms... :E
Suddenly, hats don't seem so bad afterall...
SMT

[Wader2]

SMT, that almost put me into cardiac arrest.

Wonder if they arrested the photographer after he took the up the skirt shots :}

[goudie]

SMT
A picture says a thousand words
Best post on this thread so far..........and answers the question. Shame the hats aren't red

[parabellum]

The only people in aviation I can think of that wear uniform without a hat are stewards.

[Roadster280]

SMT -

Is that the Russian Corps of Prostitutes? They've all got different shoes on, and all got at least 3inch heels, but different styles, some with straps, some not. One of the scutters even has a block heel on (3rd rank, 4th away from camera). Not that I've got a shoe fetish or anything....

It says something about the Russian military that they issue miniskirts, but not shoes, yet expect their birds to wear stilettos.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Suddenly, hats don't seem so bad afterall...

And 'chip bags' at that!!

Come on SMT where did you find that and who are they?

:D

[Gainesy]

North Korean
Never thought drill could be fun.
http://www.londonkoreanlinks.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/military-marching1.jpg

[stickmonkeytamer]

Are they swords between their legs or are there some ladyboys???

SMT

[barnstormer1968]

Re post 100:
All throughout my cold war service, the soviet forces were always referred to as "hairy arsed Russians". Somehow I suspect that I was misled on this point now.
So If I were lucky enough to meet one of those ladies in your pic, would I need to wear a hat during the East West reunion that followed. :E

[Green Flash]

The Koreans; Hmmm, maybe a cap? I'm sure I can see a Dutch one ..... ;):}

[MightyGem]

SMT, a bit of prior warning, if you please!! Almost spilt my tea all over the keyboard!

[Blacksheep]

Aaah! Memories of playing my Haggis with the 1 Group Pipes & Drums for WRAF graduations at Spitalgate. Graduations look like much more fun in Russia and Korea, though. :E

...and its nice to see all those Russian and Korean ladies actually have their legs on the right way up...;)

[LEE BRITT]

Seem to remember that the Royal Navy once escorted a British King, from then on they were so trusted that they no longer had to show the palm of the hand when saluting, something like that.

[Kitbag]

I'm pretty sure that the British Army could claim to have escorted their king (up to George III at any rate) on the battlefield, providing a pretty clear demonstration of their trustworthiness.

[Wader2]

Let's stick with legs, far more interesting.

[brickhistory]

One's wife, also a USAF officer, attended our Army's Command and Staff College. Visits there were quite boring until introduced to some of the exchange students including a staff officer from Columbia.


Her uniform and fit therein rivaled the Russian graduation photo. And her uniform shoes were of the spikey 3" variety.

Don't recall if she had a hat.....do recall the wife's 'lecture' on inappropriate attentiveness........

[Wader2]

Brick,

I take it that the wife's lecture was one on one, no questions afterwards?:}

[brickhistory]

Yep.

I believe you refer to them as 'hat on, no coffee' chats..........

[BEagle]

But isn't the riposte along the lines of:

"Beer me, bitch. Then do the washing up!"

[airborne_artist]

Note the position of the top buttons on the old-style uniforms of Wrens officers....

http://dev.seayourhistory.org.uk/images/themes/navyspeople/infocus/women/wrns_story/part_4/1989_71_16_330.jpg

[goudie]

But isn't the riposte along the lines of:

"Beer me, bitch. Then do the washing up!"


Most certainly is BEeagle but well out of earshot of the Memsahib eh!

The 'women in uniform' fetish is getting a good airing..............nice!

[fawkes]

AA - absolutely, but they were specially trained to carry it off: woe betide you if you even thought of saying anything. You have just given me a terrible shock as I recognise this particular intake of WRENOs.

Fierce and fearless to all rates and ranks (and with a withering look that disarmed Flag officers at ten paces), they used to punch above
their supposed equivalent rank and were not subject to the Naval Discipline Act but to their own very scary Commandant.

Among the recollections passing the censor is a particular memory of the second on the left second row during an assessed serial giving one of her instructing officers an A1 telling off for unofficerlike language.
P G Wodehouse has a marvellous description of flummoxedness - he said that he had once seen a woman deterring an attacking dog by opening a parasol in its face. The instructing officer's reaction was just like that dog's.

It would be inconceivable that any of them would have graduated like their foreign counterparts - they never slung their handbags from the shoulder but carried them like HM. However on the positive side, stockings were uniform; tights were infra dig.

And yet a strange transformation used to come over them after mess dinners when it was time for mess games...

And my goodness me...[edited for adult content]

We lost something special when we lost the WRNS.

[Roland Pulfrew]

We lost something special when we lost the WRNS.

And the WRACs and the WRAFs

All sacrificed on the altar of political correctness and non-descriminatory, inclusiveness.....:(

[RETDPI]

I cannot but agree totally with the above sentiments .
They were always a bit "special" and a constant reminder to us yobbos in the mainstream that there was a difference in the sexes that PC just cannot overwrite , with its flagrant Spartist and subversive denial of natural femininity.
Actually they did, for a while, exist side by side with the main lists. One had WRNS plus Women RN Medical and Dental Officers , for example.

Too late now of course. The humourless little people of straw now rule.

[AlJH]

A_A:

They're still there old boy. Has me giggling in my head everytime.