AB206 -v- B206 & EASA.

[Graham Elliott]

Hello everyone,

I am hoping, that through the Pprune forum, I can reach the owners/operators of AB206's throughout Europe. 487 machines (or thereabouts)were built by Agusta, 40 of which reside in the UK. I have written the below correspondence to the UK owners, and have received a high percentage of replies - all of which I must add, consisted of negativity concerning the current standards of parts availability under the new EASA ruling.

I am working hard to hopefully resolve this bizarre problem, and would welcome comments from any AB206 owner/operators with experiences, both good or bad in obtaining parts. Please contact me via either PM or email in this regard. Thanks for your time!

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Dear AB206 owner,

From personal experience of the delays in getting parts for my Agusta Bell 206, I feel it necessary to publish this open discussion document regarding the supply of approved parts for my AB206. Due to recent changes in legislation and the rigorous enforcing of the "No Bell parts to be fitted to an Agusta Bell", I have found that the support for the Agusta Bell Fleet in UK to be sadly lacking.Having discovered that the majority of the parts supplied by Agusta for fitment to AB206's are sourced from Bell Helicopters, and then submitted for inspection prior to having an EASA Form 1 produced by the Type Certificate owner, it begs the question "Why does it take so long to get AB206 parts?"Having suffered recently from the lack of parts availability, and the grounding of my aircraft until the parts were received (nearly 7 weeks for a half-shaft bearing), I decided to investigate this further, so that I could satisfy myself that everything was either being done or going to be done to keep me airworthy and legal in the future.I contacted EASA and the CAA regarding my plight, however, as supportive and sympathetic as they were, the outcome was not going to change.It is apparent that due to the fact "everybody" was fitting Bell parts to their Agusta because the lead times/availability were good, Agusta were not aware of the amount of items that were required to support the UK fleet. Thus, the provisioning of the parts by Agusta to support the AB206 got smaller and smaller to the point were everyday items were not available. Now that the new legislation is starting to bite, and maintenance companies are under considerable obligation to fit "Applicable" parts, the provisioning of the parts really has to start from scratch it appears. One could consider that other EASA regulated countries still toed the line, and would have given Agusta a feel for the requirements, but further contact with European owners/operators indicated an ignorance or avoidance of the "No Bell parts to be fitted to an Agusta Bell" ruling.I am also aware that extra discounts are available to Agusta Service Centres if parts for scheduled maintenance are ordered 12 months or more in advance, thus allowing Agusta a reasonable amount of time to provision for known parts that are arising.I would much appreciate any feedback from Agusta Bell 206 owners regarding the supply of parts from Agusta, and the effects that they have experienced due to encountering the same problems that I have recently.

I have a meeting scheduled with Agusta senior management before the end of the year. It would be extremely helpful if all owner/operators could contact me as soon as possible in this regard with your experiences/current problems and observations.








Thank you in advance,

Kind regards.

[nigelh]

Airandground based in staffordshire have a huge inventory of parts both new and o/h . Why dont you get agusta to buy them and then sell them on for double the price ? I am sure you could have got your part by return post!

[Graham Elliott]

Thanks for the reply. Although it seems that not many AB206 jockey's use this forum.:confused:

Are the parts mentioned all ex Saudi Air Force? from recent personal experience, they have no paperwork other than a C of C form Air and Ground. Traceable they maybe - but to a military source only. The same problem was apparent when the 206 parts stock was purchased from the Maltese Air Force a few years ago!Some CAA Surveyors are in tune to what the real world is like when trying to purchase Agusta parts but the majority back off as soon as the term ex-military is used.We have the stock listing, and to be honest it is pretty obvious that the parts have been picked at for a number of years. Most of the stock available comprises of major components like Masts, Transmissions and TR Gearboxes. There are several Driveshafts on the list too, but they are all the three hole couplings and not the 4 hole coupling type that is fitted to B111's. Even if we secured a 3 hole coupling for a BIII machine, we could not fit it because it has been moded out..

Graham Elliott

[206 jock]

Nigel, as you know I have beneffited from the Airandground parts stock: my machine would have been a dead duck without it. But I was lucky, I found someone with the right certification to 'overhaul' the part and release it on the correct paperwork.

The industry is not prepared to take parts without the right paperwork: without it, they are just expensive paperweights.

[Michael May]

Hi Graham , I am too the owner of an AB 206 ( G-PELS) that requires TT straps...the identical part number to the Bell part...absolutely identical. In fact prior to me buying her we she was fitted with and has been flying with BELL TT straps fitted. I too have been speaking with the CAA and await their decision as Agusta are giving a lead time of 18 months for a 2 year life part!! We all wish to be safe but this is paperwork for paperwork's sake . Please let me know if you get anywhere or I too could assist and attend a meeting. PELS is a very expensive ornament at the moment.

Cheers

Michael

[BSHJAY]

Hello Graham,

Did you succeed in the meeting with Agusta at All ???:ok:

We are a maintenance company and are at present carrying out an ARC Renewal, and as you have said, due to TCDS, if the helicopter has been fitted with Bell Parts with no NTO (No Technical Objection) or Agusta supporting paperwork, then this part has to be classed as a bogus part, stupid I know, as all new parts come from Bell anyway.:ugh:

Please drop me a line on how you got on, as we are thinking of pursuing this ourselves.

"We are not here to annoy the owners or upset other maintenance companies, but this needs to be sorted !!!"

[hoistop]

Let's take this situation... You install an Bell part to your Agusta helicopter. Then, FAA issues an Emergency AD against certain batch of parts, and your part is included in the listing... but how do you know? Since you have an Agusta helicopter you do not need to know about FAA ADs and Bell Service Bulletins, but you must check italian ENAC "Prescrizioni di Aeronavigabilita" ( OK, EASA now, but not 100%) and Agusta Westland Bolletini Tecnici. Since Agusta as TC holder knows nothing about Bell parts installed to Agusta helicopters, they have no means to warn you unless Bell produced part become "Agusta part" by sending them thru their system.
Remember, airworthiness is the responsibility of owner/operator, not your maintenance provider. How do you get around this? Tracking both EASA /Agusta and FAA / Bell documents?:(
You can sometimes fall in a big trap, if not very careful. Been there, (nearly) done that.

hoistop

[206 jock]

I know Graham ended up selling his AB206 in the early part of last year. I think he gave up faced by a wall of disinterest.

BSHJAY, which helo are you looking after, as a matter of interest?

[BSHJAY]

Thanks Hoistop,

As you mentioned, covering all aspects of SB's/AD's wether they are FAA/ENAC/EASA/CAA/TCAD is fine, to some point this covers the maintenance company, but when the engineer signs out the release cert and has fitted a Bell Part that has not gone through the Agusta hands, this is then going against the TCDS and therefore is classed as a bogus part and risking the approval of the company.

Some authorities have agreed with this practice, to cover all ad's/sb's, but ask them to put it in writing !!!:=

Please, if anyone can give assistance with this matter, please drop me an email.

[BSHJAY]

Silly question to the Fixed wing people.

How did you treat the Cessna 152 & the Reims F152, as these were built under different TCDS ???

[206 jock]

BSHJAY

There was a good discussion about Bell Vs Agusta in this thread

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/308511-206-biii-operating-costs-uk.html

Some of the guys there did seem to know a lot more than me about the issues, although there was never a conclusion.

Let me know if you need any more help or contacts at Agusta. I can supply you with a copy of the letter I had from Agusta if I can find it in my files.

[BSHJAY]

Very Interesting 206_Jock

I see from alot of forums, the argument with AB206 & 206 parts has been around a while now and unfortunatley will always be around because like everybody else you kind of get abit hacked of by the authorities, not helping, so, give up and sell the machine (if you can!), We all just want the best.

I take it by the comments in the link from your posts, you managed to get your parts approved by Agusta ?:D
does the new owner have a copy of this letter for his records?:O

[nigelh]

All of the parts at air and ground are or can be , sold with complete paperwork i believe , and are a huge discount to new prices . Would you say that an AB 206 would now sell at a discount to a Bell due to all this nonsense ? If so i would be quite keen to buy one if anyone knows of one for sale at a good price !!

[starflex fixer]

To all concerned above, re spares for the AB206.

The bottom line is that although the same, Bell parts, with no Agusta PW or an Agusta NTO CANNOT be fitted to an AB206, not only does this invalidate you TC, but as stated earlier because the 2 companies operate under different legislative organisations, and different quality procedures, your part unless Agusta know about it may not be subject to a major service instruction.

As NigelH has said about, Air & Ground in Staffordshire do have a considerably large inventory of Agusta original AB206 parts. Whilst this stock has come from the RSAF, the vast majority of the rotable assmeblies have not been fitted to any operational aircraft. Air & Ground now have a current licensed engineer looking after the AB206 inventory, so speaks your language and can provide all the 206 inventory with Form 1's as required.

If anybody wants any help, PM me and I will point in the right direction.

SFF

[nigelh]

The engineer is called gary and his no (0044) 1889271777.
Does anyone know of an AB 206 either for sale or one i could do a deal on a block of hours ...or part own ?

[birrddog]

nigelh, you leaving Kate Moss for Nora Batty? ;)

Hat, Coat, etc....

[Choppersquad]

Lads

Looking for AB206 TT straps, machine waiting on the deck.
Any help would be great.

Thanks
Choppersquad.

[nigelh]

You could say i have gone from Kate to Nora ...as i have sold my beloved 350 and am looking for an AB 206:eek: however i would say my 350 is a bit better than Kate and the 206 is not as bad as Nora ( she is probably a Robbo ) I will buy another 350 when the prices have halved as i expect them to :ok:

ps 2 helis i have been watching have been sold for HALF their asking price:eek:

[BSHJAY]

Only help, choppersquad,

Is goto Sloanes and tell them you need AB206 TT's, and they will sort the rest for you, lead time isn't that bad, ours were ordered 20/03 delivered 14/04.
(and no I don't mean a year!!!!)

BSHJAY

[Choppersquad]

Thanks for the tip
Have ordered them.

choppersquad.

[BSHJAY]

Has anybody heard of a Bell 206 being grounded by the CAA, due to having Agusta parts fitted in the past few weeks.

Bit concerned, if one Regional CAA is grounding Bell helicopters for having Agusta Parts fitted, how long before they start grounding the Agusta for having Bell parts fitted, only takes one to start the ball rolling.

I am guessing that the problem on the above aircraft is the Life Limit being different for Agusta Parts v Bell Parts.

Any info, would be appreciated

[nigelh]

I hear there will be a lot of AB,s grounded over the next few weeks/months due to bell parts . If anyone has bell parts and wants to do an exchange with AB parts then contact airandground who are open to any deal . There will also be AB parts fitted to Bells and maybe all these peope should come on here and do swaps?? I am still looking for a sensibly priced AB to buy or as a project .....

[JTobias]

Sounds like some direct action might be needed!!
How about everyone flies to them to the CAA at Gatwick (or wherever) and dumps them on their lawn!! :ok:

It might need a judicial review or something, but that would be costly I guess.

[BSHJAY]

If anyone has bell parts and wants to do an exchange with AB parts then contact airandground who are open to any deal . There will also be AB parts fitted to Bells and maybe all these peope should come on here and do swaps??

Sounds nice and pretty, unfortunately, can't be done if the item has already been fitted though.

i.e. If fitted to Bell, item must be recertified by Agusta before fitment to an AB and vice versa.

Nige, do you work for AirandGround, as you are always pushing their name ?!?

[nigelh]

I have some spares with them but believe it or not i am really more keen in making sure that all the poor people ( poor as in luck ..not cash ....but may be that too soon !) who own these machines have access to parts at a good price ( say 50%) and donthave to wait with aog and pay full price to Agusta who are happy to profit but do not want to help . It is their intention to have all AB 206,s grounded for ever ( allegedly ) so where does that leave the owners ?? They should be trading at 50% of a bell but for some reason have not reached that yet. It would be a shame if they were all left to rot on the ground :{

[BSHJAY]

Cheers for that nige.

The Bell 206 that was grounded, was apparently on an ARC Renewal, and the maintenance company consulted the CAA and the CAA's standing was the Agusta Parts need to come off !!

[SASless]

Is the situation the same in other countries or is this a UK CAA specific situation?

[BSHJAY]

SASless

No, this isn't a CAA specific requirement, in all authorities the requirement for the aircraft to be kept to the Manufacturers TCDS is the same, just some authorities tend to turn a blind eye:cool:, but ask any authority to put it in writing that it is ok to fit Bell to Agusta and vice versa and see what the response is.

Both Bell and Agusta have issued letters stating NOT to fit each others parts.

The reason these are being affected as much now, is the ARC (EASA Aircraft) procedure, where the maintenance company issueing the ARC is responsible for the Continued Airworthiness of the aircraft and if the incorrect parts are fitted, their heads be it :=

The CAA do a grand job in keeping our skies safe :D albeit abit infuriating sometimes :ugh:

[SASless]

Any difference in safety stats between the "Blind Eye" states and the UK for Jet Rangers with mixed parts and kosher parts?

Is this a "marketing issue" rather than a pure "safety" issue?

In time, when General Aviation and non-Airline commercial aviation disappears then I guess the skies will be perfectly safe....then you can claim the CAA as being very successful in that goal.

[BSHJAY]

Sorry SASless,

I am GA, and we have a very good working relationship with our regional, never had the pleasure of Airline Commercial.

The concerns on the AB and B is liability, not safety, ask any engineer and you will most likely get the same response, after all most Agusta parts are originally Bell, its just they have gone through a paperwork exercise with Agusta Quality Dept.

Fortunately SAS, there will always be GA.:ok:

[nigelh]

There is no good reason for the banning of mixing parts . Most jetbangers over the last 30 years have had mixed parts with no trouble and i would be more than happy to fly one :ok: Maybe there is a way of getting some sort of insurance for the wwide fleet and one maint co could ensure all the ad,s etc get passed on to the relevent a/c but of course that wont happen ...because its common sene isnt it :ugh:

[ericferret]

Earlier in the thread someone commented on how the difference berween Reims built Cessna's and American built is handled.

The Cessna IPC for the C150 lists all serial numbers for both makes and that goes back to at least 1970.

As far as I am aware parts have not been available from Reims for years.

Rumour has it that Cessna are now design authority for the Reims aircraft except the C406.
If anybody can confirm this I would be pleased to have a reference.

This problem with the 206 is by and large artificial generated by bureacrats without much of a clue or interest in the realities of operating aircraft. The CAA just sits in the corner wringing it's hands. They have allowed this situation to develop over a number of years.

I remember in the early nineties a visit from the CAA we were asked about our policy in respect of AD's for AB 206's. Apparently a number of maintenance organisations were certifying to FAA AD's and ignoring the Italian ones. Given Agusta's lack of interest in supporting the 206 this wasn't really a surprise. Service information would be issued by Bell and months later Agusta would get round to issuing a copy under their banner.

The perfect answer would be for Bell to take over design responsibility for the AB206 but given the American legal liability problems and the fact that every 206 that gets decked is a sales opportunity don't hold you breath.

Alternatively EASA could take a pragmatic view and allow Bell parts to be used. Again don't hold your breath.

[SASless]

Bureaucracy! "Befehl ist Befehl!":ugh:

Just once....it would be nice to see the Pinheads use commonsense and work towards a solution to a problem rather than just trimming pencils.

[BSHJAY]

My hat off to you Ericferret,

That is exactly what we have said and many other people in the industry have said.

Bell don't even need to take over design just get Agusta to Approve Bell as an authorised manu/supplier, they are anyway !!!!!

But I guess this is too easy a solution.

[nigelh]

anyone out there got an AB project ? Would love to find one to rebuild (using my parts naturally !!) reckon i could operate it for not much more than a R44 . In fact i would like a couple at the right price :ok:


BSHJAY are you saying that if ibuy your bell blades off your AB then i cannot fit them to my Bell ? That is ridiculous and just makes people find a way to break/ get around the law . Then all you have to do is find an engineer who will falsify the records/provenance and bobs your uncle :ok: What if you fit the blades to a bell ( admittedly against the rules )......dont fly it ...after a week take the blades off and then fit to another bell? I know there will be some clever way around it ......how come so many AB,s are still flying when we know they will almost certainly have bell parts ??
What is happening with the isle of man option ??

[ericferret]

If my memory serves me correctly Agusta main rotor blades come with Agusta data plates and are painted differently to Bell blades.

Bell blades were black and grey Agusta blades were black and green.

No engineer in his right mind is going anywhere near falsifying log cards for components.

I have seen falsified log cards, they were for Gazelle parts.

[nigelh]

Falsifying bit was slightly tongue in cheek but the point really is that if you make a rule that is going to effect peoples livelyhoods ,and their pockets, you had better make sure their is logic and a genuine safety reason . Here there is no logic or safety reason .....we all agree that a mechanism can be put in place to make sure that aircraft with cross parts will be covered with respect to airworthiness notifications , ad,s etc etc we also know that the parts interfit safely , as they have done for 30 yrs without problem . What we have now is the greedy twats at Bell and Agusta who dont really want to dirty their hands looking after the plebs who fly their old kit ..which quite frankly they are embarrassed about now . They , you must remember have moved UP in the world and want to leave their seedy 206 days behind them . GA boys are a pain in the arse, not professional , poor and prob cause them more grief than any other customer . I remember when i had to negotiate with turbomeca on a replacement engine .....a part of THEIR engine fell off and bent THEIR turbine blades . It was a known design fault but it was MY fault and as a one man band i was not of any importance . I made such a nuisance of myself ( as only i can do :ok:) that eventually theydid a deal just to shut me up and get me away from their other customers . I swore NEVER to have a turbomeca engined helicopter again and have sold mine . ( £180,000 poorer just on the engine ......and that apparently was REALLY cheap !!!) They accepted no responsibility for their known design failure and the insurance which i had for FOD didnt pay a penny either !!!!! Sorry for the ramble but it explains why they will never want to help..the only way is creative thinking .............

[ericferret]

I didn't really think you were serious Nigel.

I can understand your frustration with the system we are now working with. Nobody hates it more than the maintenance engineers.

I would like to know where the CAA are, they have a responsibilty for this situation and should be proactive in sorting it out.

[BSHJAY]

We have talked with many CAA Surveyors, yes, when you talk to them, they agree it is a stupid situation, and in some cases, have agreed that the Bell parts stay on until it is feasable to replace them (ie when the overhaul/scrap life is due), but ask them to confirm this in writing, and you don't stand a cat in hells chance. According to CAA Surveyors, this is an EASA problem not theirs !

Sorry Nigel, but yes, my understanding of the regulations is, if the item has been fitted to an AB, AND has flown, then this item CANNOT be then fitted to a Bell !! without going through an Overhaul and being recertified. In no way should records be tampered with.

Eric, the Cessna and Reims was me, the Cessna 406 was the same as the Reims F406 but, same as the Bell and AB, different TCDS, as memory serves me there was only a couple of ATA chapters that had different part numbers, but never once was I questioned by the CAA on the parts fitted (were they Cessna or were they Reims?), I think they only asked me if I had a copy of the French TCDS.

[nigelh]

Surely there MUST be some cheap ones out there grounded !! I will pay a reward for information ......

[krypton_john]

All the bits you can eat here, Nige, if 206A will do?

Agusta Bell 206A JetRanger Helicopters for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Aircraft/Aircraft/auction-203539005.htm)

I wonder what the guy wants. Presumably these puppies will be cheap as chips!

Now about my reward.... :-)

[Non-Driver]

Highly likely that in the next month or two a certain well known UK veteran AB206B will be parted out. It has several low-time genuine Agusta components which may be of interest to you AB206 operators. If we can get enough on the components we may consider lending the leftover airframe to a UK museum where I'm sure scrap components can be refitted to make it look complete. Airframe data plate definitely ain't available before anyone asks.....Anyone interested in making a bid or getting together a consortium of owner-operators, PM me. We've been through the same CAA hassles you guys have and would be glad to help, but we're not a charity (at least that's what we tell the shareholders).

[nigelh]

Why would you not sell the thing as a whole ? If it is a B then there are already a lot of the main value parts already on the market at half price with air and ground and they now come with all paperwork /inspections etc It seems a shame to scrap her ?? Could you PM me re this ?

[9Aplus]

Almost one year after this posting stops?!

You owners and operators of AB206....

How is going with parts and consumables under EASA?
AW supportive?
CAA reasonable?

Really like to hear "real life" experience in between :ok:

[nigelh]

That ifr machine ended up being sold for less than i offered ...the company selling it were not very bright !!! It was sold as a whole after saying they would only break it . I hear there are some cheap AB 206,s for sale but with C18 ....ideal for v cheap training ??
Anyone know of a fleet of AB 206 working in Africa ...maybe Ethiopia ?? I am taking offers on my whole inventory ( thousands of parts most unused ) at the moment . I hear you can still mix parts in much of europe incl Germany .

[TBM700]

Hello guys,

I am looking for AB206 B flight manual in a .pdf release.
I need to compare it with the B206 B that I own.

Thx for repleing me.
Personnal email is appreciate.

N.

[fokkerpilot]

What happened to the EASA rule not to fit Bell parts on an AB206?
Is it still not legal?
Do the CAA in Europe accept Bell parts or will it change in the near future?
Is it only a problem in UK?


Thanks

[nigelh]

Same old CAA ..they will never change their spots . The only place i know where you can interchange is i think France and Germany . I for one now would never buy an AB 206 due to not being able to source parts and it will be harder now that i have sold my entire inventory to the US .
Stick with Bell or pay at least 25% less for an AB . Just my thoughts ..

[fokkerpilot]

I think you can use Bell parts for AugustaBell in the Scandinavia also. Will things change for Germany, France when EASA get more power?

[nigelh]

When EASA take power you wont be allowed to fly anything !! The nutters have taken over the ward ...just get a CAA licence and stick 2 fingers up at em :ok:

[206 jock]

January 2009 Would you say that an AB 206 would now sell at a discount to a Bell due to all this nonsense ? If so i would be quite keen to buy one if anyone knows of one for sale at a good price !

February 2011I for one now would never buy an AB 206 due to not being able to source parts

Let's face it, Agusta consider the AB206 to be a PITA that they can't wait to get shot of having to support. It's the most ridiculous situation, but no-one has the motivation or ability to do anything about it.