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tartare
19th Nov 2007, 00:35
Suspect I might get my head bitten off... or provoke some sick jokes, but this is a genuine question. I should add, I recognise military flying sometimes calls for procedures, manouveres, practises, that in the civillian world would never be deemed safe.
A while back I read in a nameless newspaper that, due to the high intensity of sorties, and the long time in the air on each, US fast jet pilots flying off carriers during GW2 were being prescribed - how shall we put it - certain medications to keep them awake and alert... i.e. amphetemines.
I know that with ground troops in WW2, Vietnam etc... there were many experiments with giving troops such substances to promote alertness, overcome fear etc.
But initially the thought of flying a multi-million dollar fast jet off a carrier, at night, with full tanks and loaded to the max with live weapons while having such substances in your bloodstream seemed too scary to be true.
Then I considered I was probably just being a little naive, and that maybe this was one of those realities about military operations that those in uniform don't talk about... and that crashing said jet due to tiredness would be more frightening than flying a little `wired' and wide awake. Do the military know in detail exactly the degree that aviators reflexes etc. are affected by such drugs? Is it true... or just another case of sensationalist, over imaginative and inaccurate non-specialist media getting it wrong?

L J R
19th Nov 2007, 02:50
The US Miltary Medical system did do research on this prior to letting the dudes take these things. They were strictly regulated and the cycles in which they could use them were also closely managed.

...nothing new here.

StbdD
19th Nov 2007, 05:15
It has been looked at, it has been done.

Next step is to bring in the "drugged pilot" angle followed shortly by the blue on blue crowd.

Next is to dig out everyones laundry and discuss it. Those forces that admit to it that is.

Been done here many times before. Do a search.

Pontius Navigator
19th Nov 2007, 07:08
Hence the name uppers and downers.

In the 70s we used to get Mogadon. In theory you could be woken with no residual sleepiness. I know they worked well as downers but the upper bit was not very good and certainly not good enough for QRA.

The docs were very cautious in issuing them because they could lead to dependency. I took them occasionally when the operations cycle was well out of synch with the body clock. Sometimes, where the sortie had been very intense, the brain would not stop the mission replay loop.

Psychologically it was a comfort knowing that you could take a knockout drop if Mrs PN, PN minors and PN dogs were too noisy.

BEagle
19th Nov 2007, 07:35
The Spams were certainly using something in 2002. A C-17 crew flew in to the base where we were detached with a load of 'passengers' on their way to an extended holiday in Cuba...

They'd flown a very long time, but were bouncing around our living room like tiggers on springs - and laughing like idiots at the slightest thing. Very odd.

It seems they were taking some form of 'upper' to wake them up prior to landing.

speeddial
19th Nov 2007, 07:48
The upper they drink can be something as simple as a high caffeine drink.

Mr Point
19th Nov 2007, 10:03
...although there could be one or two unwanted side effects!

Trainspotting: Spud on speed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdpqH1_EC7A)

justone26
19th Nov 2007, 10:47
See the incident regarding a Canadian-US blue on blue in 2002.

The link is here:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article125456.ece

Fg Off Max Stout
19th Nov 2007, 11:00
Take one large mug with sqn badge on front. Realise you can't find the one with your comedy nickname on it because someone has nicked it, broken it left it growing mould somewhere or the boss has it on his desk for some reason. Instead select least scabby alternative mug not belonging to one of sqn execs. This will probably have a permanent brown scale on the inside and cracks that have turned black from bacterial infestations. If you're lucky it may even have one solitary noodle or crouton dried out and bonded to the inside base.

Select spoon. Find the 'spoon mug'. Remove one spoon from the mug of grey water and check for contamination, brown crust, rustiness etc.

Take 4 heaped spoons of granules from the industrial size tub of own brand coffee. Add another level spoonful just to be sure.

Add water from the 4 terawatt boiler on the wall. Notice how the pipe to the boiler says 'not drinking water'. Burn yourself slightly on either the dry steam coming out of the boiler or the drops of superheated water that without fail always splash you.

That's going to be bitter so find the industrial size sugar tub. Fish around amongst the coagulated lumps of discoloured sugar where people have spilt their drinks into the tub to try to find some uncontaminated sugar in powder form. Take three spoonfuls. Make sure you stir each spoonful in and do not dry the spoon before getting the next spoonful. That way you can get the sugar wet with coffee so the next person can share the same experience as you.

Go to fridge for milk. Realise that the duty bod hasn't bothered to collect the milk for the last few days. Find 12 cartons frozen solid in the freezer and one carton in the fridge which is two weeks old and has turned to cottage cheese. Abondon milk plans.

Stir thoroughly and spill a bit on the work top and floor. Your coffee should smell odd and have a viscous consistency. Don't use the tea towel - it hasn't been washed since the 1990s. Use a bit of blue roll instead and leave it on the floor.

Run along to the night flying brief. Spill more coffee on the stairs and scald your hands a bit. Try to keep awake through night brf and enjoy. You'll be buzzing by the time you taxy.

50+Ray
19th Nov 2007, 12:02
Nice one Max.
Been there, recognise that, but could not have described it so well.

cornish-stormrider
19th Nov 2007, 12:12
One wonders which of you lucky aircrew has to do teas and keys??
If ever any poor liney at any section I have ever been to left the T-bar in such a state they would be hauled over the coals and torn a new asrehole.......

when I had the privelige (sp) of the duty the T-bar was clean enough to eat your dinner on, without a plate. I also dicovered the Jeltex jacket and microwave combination...........

I got the b4st4rds back though, a crewroom full of frozen berets, hi-viz jackets and eardefs. And I Rimmed Princess's mug.

Wader2
19th Nov 2007, 13:07
Cornish, too busy flying, sorry.

As for Max's tale he missed out one point.

In the event of no coffee, find dirtiest mug and just add water. :}

tartare
19th Nov 2007, 18:38
Thanks all... question answered!:)

Sir Vical Smear
20th Nov 2007, 18:54
One of the medications being tested by Aeromedical researchers is called Modofanil. It is regularly prescribed by civilian practitioners to combat 'daytime fatigue'. Essentially it blocks the neural receptors which respond to hormones released when tired.

Tests have shown that subjects prescribed larger doses of Modofanil can continue to operate for at least 48 hours of intensive cognitive activity with no reduction in perception, judgement, coordination and mental wellbeing. The subjects were then removed from the medication and tested for cognition and coordination. The tests showed an expected reduction in effective neurological function. After two sleep cycles of 10 hours over 2 days, the subjects were tested again and were shown to have recovered.

It is not a stimulant and works in a totally different way to caffeine, ketamine and amphetamine. Much safer and more reliable.

The long and the short is that if you take this stuff you can fly, drive, sail and fight for at least 48 hours with absolutely no loss of function. Modofanil is an amazing product and might be coming to a medical centre near you.

SVS

BEagle
20th Nov 2007, 19:22
But what happens at 1 minute past those 48 hours?

chevvron
20th Nov 2007, 19:36
I thought everyone was aware that B2 crews used drugs to stay awake on their 20 hour missions.

Sir Vical Smear
20th Nov 2007, 19:53
At 1 minute past those 48 hours you probably wouldn't notice any degradation. 48 hours was set as a reliable limit, with a bit of fat built in. At 72 hours though the subjects tested showed the same loss of function which they would if they had been operating for 24 hours. Essentially Modofanil gives you a 48 hour head start on your work cycle.

As for B2 crews, I don't know what is prescribed for them; but it they would seem to be ideal candidates for this sort of application.

Other applications are to enable effective function after a long journey or a poor/interrupted period of rest.

Blacksheep
21st Nov 2007, 00:32
I thought everyone was aware that B2 crews used drugs to stay awake on their 20 hour missions.Shackleton crews used their Griffons for that... :}

I recall being given pills during a couple of Mickey Finns back in 67-68. They kept me awake well enough but when they wore off I didn't wake up for nearly two days. On the second occasion they wore off early and I fell asleep standing up against the GPU on the ORP at Valley. I slept right through the scramble - quite an achievement within forty or fifty feet of a pair of B1as at full take-off power. :ooh:

Some people said their pills had no effect, while others at other dispersal airfields weren't given any at all. The control groups I suppose.

Hipper
21st Nov 2007, 09:26
RAF Bomber Command crew in WW2 were issued with Benzedrine.

thelynxeffect
23rd Nov 2007, 12:43
It's all in the JSP550, read about it.

buoy15
23rd Nov 2007, 19:20
Rumour has it the Marines and SAS are using Viagra eyedrops
Don't do much for their sex life but sure makes them look hard:p

Fg Off Max Stout
23rd Nov 2007, 20:30
Ba-doom boom. I'm here all week - thankyouverymuch ah. :D