Things I always wanted to know as a PILOT

[Slasher]

10 questions Ive always wanted to know the answers to -

1. SLFs sometimes wont lock an aircraft toilet door yet theyll unfailingley lock it in a public dunny. Why?

2. Most pax cant be bothered watching the Pre-TO Emergencey brief while the intellegent few do. This usualy determines who most likely will be still alive after the evac and wholl be dead. Is it a macho thing to ignore the brief or somethin?

3. Why do SLFs complain about the legroom and pitch of cattle-class seats? Your stuffed in seats like sardines in return for a lower fare and Economy class is named because its exactley that - ECONOMY!

4. Why do pax insist on flying with carriers who have dangerus safety records? Do cheap airfares override survival instincts? Would you do the same and ride with a dangerus bus or taxi company?

5. Why the rush to disembark? You could be standing in the isle for 20mins if the Manifest isnt accurate or the Traffic guy is an inexperienced snot-nosed kid.

6. Is an aircraft toilet realy more complicated to use than a reguler dunny? The flush button is in the same spot like any other thunderbox, and the tap/sink doesnt require a PhD to figure out.

7. If you slop up your dunny at home you clean it up. So why do you expect the stewardesses to clean YOUR ungodley mess up? :rolleyes:

8. Do some of you think pilots fly through severe turbulence because we WANT to?

9. Why do you believe a smooth greazey touchdown on landing is somehow the measure of a pilots total skill?

10. If you depart early you arrive early at your destination. Why is there ALWAYS the bloodey annoying 1% who insist on boarding at the last minute after everyone else has been on-board for the last 20?

[SA_C185]

I wish I could have had the answers to those questions myself! Some people do make it unpleasant for others sometimes by not cleaning after themselves. :yuk:

[redsnail]

Ah, he's back. How's the airboos? :ok:

[10secondsurvey]

Here's my tuppence worth.

3. Seat pitch. That old chestnut. Most non ff pax have no idea about this, in fact many believe the pitch is set by the manufacturer, i.e "oh, if you fly on a boeing 737 you won't get much legroom". They don't know the seat pitch is set by each specific airline.

In addition, most non ff pax purchase an airline ticket ASSUMING no airline would be dumb enough to put seats so close together that it is impossible to sit in them. Unfortunately airlines can and do.

In regards to ff pax, just look at the success of premium economy classes or similar. People want a comfy seat, but do not really see a need for full business class. I personally just want a comfy seat with some legroom, I don't need champagne, priority boarding, enhanced meals, free alcoholic drinks etc.. Unfortunately, up until recently, the only choice has been cattle class or the super luxury of business class.

I happily choose airlines with larger legroom generally anyway, as firstly, it means there are fewer seats per given amount of space, which means that de-planing can be quicker, and there is more space in overhead lockers. Go on a charter with 28 inch pitch throughout, and you'll regularly find insufficient space overhead for even a modest amount of carry-on.

4. I agree. Sadly most pax can't easily access safety records, so they cannt make an INFORMED decision.

10. The clue is in the end of your question. I see no reason to pre-board a flight lasting eight hours in order to sit in my seat early (for 20 mins or more). In my experience, nowadays, airlines like to board pax early, so they can pull back from the gate on time (keeping their stats looking good), and then once the doors are closed, announce;"sadly ATC have changed our slot to approximately two hours from now, but we're hoping to leave earlier (yeah right!) so had you all board the aircraft now." That is exactly why ff pax don't board early. When I fly club, I never understand the notion of early boarding, to me it is common sense to stay out of the plane for as long as possible. Most ff pax learn from airline lies.

2. You know, when I'm on a really cramped econ short haul flight, I just chuckle when I hear crew say the main concern of the airline is our safety. If that were the case, we wouldn't have seats at wing exit rows, and we wouldn't be crammed in like sardines. Personally, I always watch the safety brief, and check the number of rows to exits in front and behind.

There is a more serious side to this, I've heard many people say this before. Many non ff pax believe if the plane is going down, then they'll all die anyway, and the safety brief is just to make people feel they will be safe, whereas in reality, they'll all be gonners. I know that isn't the case, and that somewhere between 70 and 80 percent survive aircrashes overall, but many folks do think that most people get killed in air crashes, regardless of the safety briefing.

[Mark1234]

1) Pass
2) 'Cos I've seen the content (which doesn't change) 100 times before. In my case, I already looked on the way in where the exits were, and had a quick think where I'm going if, and usually count seat backs to the exit. I don't need to be told how to put on a lifejacket, or use the oxygen mask (again). Hope that doesn't sound too arrogant!
3) Because economy still costs reasonable money, and I'm compelled to fly economy by the penny pinching accountants where I work... I'm going to do everything I can to get the best out of that.. so I'll fly with the best economy I can find!
4) Do my best not to!
5) Because if you've been sat in 'economy' for 20+hrs, you'd do anything to stand up, or otherwise get out of that metal tube :) Also, (particularly short haul), I tend to fly hand baggage only.. added incentive to get off and running.
6) Never had a problem with it
7) I don't.. the inconsiderate few I'm sure
8) See 7 - I thought you magic it up on demand whenever I either have a cup of tea, or go to the dunny ;)
9) Well, it's the most visible/measurable for us poor SLF. But I do appreciate that a greaser is not always the aim.
10) I have no idea.. would like to slap them myself..

Hope that was of some help :ok:

[groundhand]

Re 4

How am I to know, unless there has been a publicised incident, whether this airline is safer than the other?
Are you really saying that lo-co = unsafe?
Where's your evidence of this? or are you of the school that thinks anyone who books loco is not worth bothering about?


Re seat pitch.
Some of the legacy carriers have the worst Y seat pitch, unfortunately many of us are forced into these as our employers won't pay the hugely over inflated C fares on short haul. Like the earlier comment, I want decent leg room (I wear leg 37ins trousers) - and will pay for it BUT without all the other cr*p.

[TightSlot]

10SS

Apologies, but if I may pick you up on something...

You know, when I'm on a really cramped econ short haul flight, I just chuckle when I hear crew say the main concern of the airline is our safety. If that were the case, we wouldn't have seats at wing exit rows, and we wouldn't be crammed in like sardines.

After the Manchester 737 Fire, a lot of work was done on evacuations, mostly at the Cranfield Institute of Technology (http://www.flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_mar-apr90.pdf) but also at other agencies including the FAA (http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0102.pdf).

I'm afraid both documents linked to are quite lengthy - for the purposes of this thread though, it is worth pointing out that, surprisingly, fewer seats at the over-wing exit rows do not necessarily mean faster evacuation times, and 28" seat pitch (i.e. minimum) does not necessarily mean a lesser chance of survival. Please remember that all large transport aircraft have to perform a full evac trial, in 90 seconds, using only half the exits, at the maximum passenger capacity

[PAXboy]

Like the earlier comment, I want decent leg room (I wear leg 37ins trousers) - and will pay for it BUT without all the other cr*p.I think that illustrates the point very well. Naturally, every pax want more space for as little cash as possible (irrespective of who pays) but by linking space to 'luxury' it allows the carrier to separate the space and the cost. If they just charged a bit more, then more would take it but that would lower the overall number of seats and revenue.

For enough years, they have been able to get people to pay the Y fares and put up with it, so they have no incentive to change. AA tried to change this a few years ago (about 5 or 6, I think). As I recall, they made a huge advertising push about giving more leg room in Y, including long haul, of about 2 inches or possibly more. The adverts showed rows of seats being physically taken out. A couple of years later, I read (in PPRuNe) that they were quietly putting the rows back in because it had not generated enough extra bookings. QED.

I like the 10 questions, some of which might be tongue in cheek?
Not locking loo door: I didn't know they did this.
Not watching saftey demo: I have always been mysitifed by the way they ignore it. Even though I know it, I always watch. The idea that some folks are avoiding thinking about a crash seems likely.
As per longer answer above: Price wins but complaining has become a SOP for pax.
Dangerous carriers: My guess is that 99% of pax do not know where to find safety statistics and airlines don't use this in their advertising. The CAA do not publicise this. Also, Price Wins.
Rush to disembark: Herding instinct.
Looks as if the flush button has to have a flashing neon ring around it.
Messing up the loo: Standards of public behaviour have been dropping for decades.
Pilots love turbulence: They certainly do! :p
Smooth touchdown: They do not know any better.
Late boarding: Again, I think we may see examples of fear and those who do not want to get on the machine, even though they want to get to their destination.

[840]

I'll try answering 5.

On Monday morning, I was travelling out hand baggage only, so I selected my seat online right at the front of the aircraft. I knew there was a train leaving the airport 20 minutes after my flight was due to land, there was a one hour wait for the next one.

So I wasn't going to be waiting for bags and getting that train was important. I managed to be first off the plane and after clearing immigration made the train with two minutes to spare.

For many of us, the plane is only part of the journey and we're keen to get moving on the next part ASAP.

[goudie]

Slasher, learn to love and respect your customers. Without them, no job no pay!

[Final 3 Greens]

1. Never seen this, but then again I’ve only taken 1,000+ commercial flights

2. If it is so important, how come a deadheading captain and FO opposite me talked very loudly all the way through it recently and the CC didn’t intervene?

3. Because the airlines (e.g. your employer) never show the reality in their advertising, only beautiful things

4. Code share is one reason – you book one carrier and travel on another

5. (a) most people don’t like planes and can’t wait to get off them, (b) some peeps have places to go to – e.g. FF with hand baggage

6. Please explain this to your FO next time, he is used to automatics on an Airbus

7. Have you got a toilet obsession???? On second thoughts, I guess Australia only got proper dunny’s recently, so the novelty hasn’t worn off yet :}

8. No, we think some of you are idiots who fly through severe turbulence because you departed at night with wx radar u/s or switched it off in VMC (even though convective activity was forecast) and also wrote off the nose radome due GR

9. I don't judge pilot's skill on greasers, which are just good luck :}

10. (a) because the exec lounge is 20 minutes from the gate and the gate staff called the lounge at the last minute, (b) because the FIDS in the exec lounge froze, the lounge doesn’t make calls and no one form the gate cross checked and also (c) your First/biz class passengers pay a big premium to board later

[MrSoft]

(5) Think on, fellow pax. My favourite example of this thinking is any inbound from Rep. of Ireland. In my experience you never get an airbridge, but a free bus ride round the airport (never understood why). Last off the plane = last on the bus. Last on the bus = first off the bus. Up up and away.

[tezzer]

The difference, and beleive me, this doesn't excuse it, is that at home, I have a discreetly placed brush in each of our dunnies, for cleaning up, if there has been "a moment".

With what am I supposed to clean it in the on-board facilities, in rhe never happened case that I am forced to go on board, after curry / guinness / both ?

Now, I can honestly say that I have never done a no. 2 on a plane, always making a point of doing it before leaving home / hotel / lounge, but I have certainly been in there after some other dirty b:mad:d has !

[AirwayBlocker]

Could I suggest placing toilet paper in the bowl before attempting a number two. Makes it go down like a spoonful of sugar does the medicine.

I have seen an F/A who used to carry a can of Spray and Cook with her which she used to spray the loo bowls with to make things easier for herself when it came to cleaning up after those with less than perfect toilet abilities.

[lexxity]

10. (a) because the exec lounge is 20 minutes from the gate and the gate staff called the lounge at the last minute, (b) because the FIDS in the exec lounge froze, the lounge doesn’t make calls and no one form the gate cross checked and also (c) your First/biz class passengers pay a big premium to board later

It's rarely the biz/first/FF pax who are late to the gate. It's Mr and Mrs Jones who can't understand that the flight needs to go when the airline says and not when they have finished drinking/shopping/visiting the wrong gate/gates because the tv screens and signs aren't clear enough and they need handholding to the gate/being last through security because they thought they would visit all the shops landside before making their way through at -15mins, I could go on, but as I said it's rarely the premium pax, so rare is it that I can clearly recall the times it has been! :{

[10bob]

Re 2 - I've always thought that some people want others to know that they are a frequent, experienced traveller as this somehow makes them look richer / more important / not scared of flying or whatever.
They do this by reading a book, newspaper or chatting with friends or colleagues etc. rather than watching the safety demonstration. Sometimes quite conspicuously :)
They are missing out in my view (either that or I've just developed an unhealthy obsession with the animated, coffee drinking, brunette in the BA version :ok: )

[IB4138]

In answer to question 5, have a look here:

http://www.ukairportdelays.co.uk/Immigration

Also look at some of the comments from pax about offending airports immigration contols.

[RevMan2]

Things I've always wanted to know as a WHATEVER

1. Where do pilots learn how to spell and punctuate?

2. Where do pilots learn how to spell and punctuate?

3. Where do pilots learn how to spell and punctuate?

4........

[Hartington]

The only reason I have done it in the past has been after a personal risk assessment and the decision that I want to be where the plane will take me. I go into it with my eyes open. The risk assessment usually boils down to the fact that even an airline with a bad safety record is probably safer than the alternative.

But I'll go along with Paxboy that 99% of people probably don't even think about it.

[Married a Canadian]

With regards to question 8

Not enough of you fly through severe turbulence now. Pilots seem to squawk anytime they go near a fluffy white cloud now.

You fly through turbulence cos the planes are built to take it...and it stops passengers getting up and messing up the washrooms that you worry about.

[DrKev]

'Cos I've seen the content (which doesn't change) 100 times before

Ah well, if you're THAT experienced, without having to look it up, you should be able to tell us... if you sit in seat 6E, which is your nearest exit...

on a 737-800?
Airbus A320?
Airbus A321?

If you can't answer those question, I don't want to have to climb over to you from 6F if the **** does hit the fan. I've flown more than 500 times, I can't answer those questions, and I always pay attention. Sometimes I even read the safety card too.

Please pay attention, it's not done simply for insurance purposes and it is aircraft specific. The life you save might not just be your own, it might be mine.

[Mark1234]

Try quoting the whole sentence:
'Cos I've seen the content (which doesn't change) 100 times before. In my case, I already looked on the way in where the exits were, and had a quick think where I'm going if, and usually count seat backs to the exit. I don't need to be told how to put on a lifejacket, or use the oxygen mask (again).

Sitting at my desk - no idea (approximately, 6 is about mid way, from memory the overwings are around row 14, and fronts row 1 (obviously) in pretty much all those aircraft). By the time I'm strapped into seat 6E I would know. I also pay attention to the door operation (do you?) and if I can spot it, where the portable oxygen is (just in case).

Anyway, the 'safety brief' doesn't tell me what you ask. What it does tell me, at least on those aircraft is that: there are 2 exits at the front, 2 overwing, and 2 at the back, how to use the oxygen mask (pull down sharply), where to find the lifejacket (under the seat), the brace position, to remove my high heels before using the exit slide, wear my safety belt at all times, follow the strip lighting on the floor, listen to the cabin crew instructions, turn off my mobile phone, and any other electronic equipment as it may interfere with the aircraft navigation systems, usually the names of the cabin crew, captain and first officer. Did I miss anything? Oh yes, there's a whistle and a light on the lifejacket, I pull the tags to inflate (NOT inside the aircraft), and blow into the mouthpiece to top up.

I guess my point is that just because I don't hang on every word of the show, doesn't mean I'm not thinking about it - I'm well aware that those with a plan tend to be the ones that live.

[10secondsurvey]

Tightslot,

I know about the evacuation in 90 seconds and so on. But, me memeory serves me very well. Several years ago, before EZY et.al., airlines like BA did NOT have a row of seats over the wing exits at all. Due, I guess to increased cost pressures, seats were added in, and so now there are rows of seats at over wing exits on most airlines.

In fact, the history was, I think like this, the British airtours Manchester runway disaster highlighted the difficulties of escape from wing exits, and this then lead to overwing exit rows being removed completely. Following on from this over several years, airlines gradually decided those rows should really still be there (for financial reasons), and put them back in, with a marginally bigger gap between the rows.

Nobody will ever convince me that putting a row of seats adjacent to an overwing exit is a good idea.

Until it changes, i will be re-assured to know that pax safety is NOT the main concern of any airline. Making a profit is.

[TightSlot]

10SS

The Cranfield (and other) research found that evac flow rate at the overwing exits was actually speeded up in some cases when seats were present in the exit row, as opposed to when removed partially or fully - I know, this sounds bizarre.

The Cabin Layout is approved by the CAA - airlines don't have an option to just insert seats anywhere at will

Safety is in my opinion the primary concern of airlines because a failure to operate safely will put you out of business (and possibly in court on charges of corp. manslaughter) faster than you can imagine.

I'm quite happy that we should agree to disagree on these points if you prefer. I don't wish to make a case that airlines are the white knights of ethical business practices - clearly they are not angels in any sense. However, I do feel that in this instance, your lack of trust is mis-placed. It is quite possible thaat my appreciation of the Cranfield results is faulty, in which case I'm sure that somebody will advise.

[Carry0nLuggage]

Tightslot
It seems counter-intuitive but a similar effect is seen in corridors and door ways. Placing an obstacle upstream of the opening or some railings along the middle of the corridor speeds up the flow, something to do with reducing the tendency of people to jam themselves together.
As for the briefing, experience has shown me two advantages.
1, Airline equipment differs, e.g does the life jacket have one red toggle or two. tapes to tie or a Fastex buckle?
2, Cabin crew remember you taking notice of their briefing when you need to ask a favour later in the flight. :ok:
Question for frequent fliers: What has changed in BA's briefing recently?

[25F]

1. They can't figure out the lock?

2. Lots of reasons, mostly already covered. I can well believe that some people have enough problems flying without listening intently to "what to do when we crash". Since starting to read Pprune I've started paying more attention - as a courtesy to the crew, mostly. And in the hope that it will encourage others to do likewise.

3. Cos we would pay 10% more to have 10% more legroom?

4. "Do cheap airfares override survival instincts?" Even an airline with a bad safety record is probably still safer than driving to the airport.

5. "Why the rush to disembark?" Beats me. I stand up when the people in the aisle nearby start moving.

9. Greasers - some people really do think that you "slam it down" because you want to.

[PAXboy]

Don't forget that, whilst some pax blame the FC for 'slamming it down just for fun'. If it is a greaser - they presume that auto-land did it. :rolleyes:

[Slasher]

Thanks for your answers so far - Im learnin a lot! :ok:

I'll respond in detail to your replys soon. I did think though
that pax were more savvyer with regards to flyin with
highly-publicised dangerus outfits.

PS Reds to answer your question the airboos sucks! :mad:

[kiwi chick]

RevMan2

Oh, hahahahaha!! My thoughts too! :D :D :D

(I learnt to count from the Hosties. "Hmmm, let me see... I've done 1, 2, 3, no hang on - FOUR of them..." :E ;) )

[parabellum]

10SecondSurvey - When and which aircraft did BA NOT have a row of seats by the emergency exit?
I ask as I often flew as a pax on the 707, VC10, Trident and Vanguard and I'm fairly sure they all had seats in the emergency exit rows, on the Standard VC10 it was something like row 9.

[Final 3 Greens]

Parabellum

I can't remember which airline (and it would have been any, some or all of BA, AF, AZ, KL, LH probably), but I do recall when I started paxing in the late 70s that the overwing exits didn't have seats next to them.

But its a long time ago :)

[Monkeytoo]

Thousands of miles but I still pull out the briefing card and listen to the brief...................I live in fear that the CC might tell me off for not paying attention :uhoh:
Always lock the toilet door.............but have been on flights where people didn't even know how to get in let alone lock it and get out again when finished!!!
I try and fly with the 'legacy' carriers - because I trust their maintenance - I assume that the majority of pilots they have employed are able to fly the aircraft!
I have no idea why the rush to disembark - and I have in fact told people standing before the aircraft has reached the gate to "sit down" in no uncertain terms-they affect my safety if they are standing beside me:mad:
I don't care what sort of landing it is - as long as I get on the ground safely!
Re the late boarding passengers - could be totally eliminated if the gate was closed prior to boarding - any body coming later.............tough, unless it is from a delayed flight from the same carrier.

[radeng]

The BA safety briefing said (last time I flew a month or so ago) that 'The captain and crew are here for your safety'. Now I always thought that the Captain's job was mainly to fly (or when the PF is the F/O, do the second pilot's job) the aircraft. After all, if the aircraft doesn't leave the gate, it's much less likely that there will be any safety problems.....

[BaronChotzinoff]

My similar question:- why can't people walk on the plane, shove their luggage in the locker and sit down, allowing the plane to board and be off in 10 mins flat? - instead of parading their asses around and sizing everyone else up, until finally, in a deft coup de grace when everybody's sitting down at last, get up again to steal a march on the competition with some final rummaging in the briefcase for the umpteenth time. Eventually it will be only the A1 alpha male left standing, he who will lead us into the New Age of Enlightenment onboard the plane for the course of the 90 mins of the flight ... until the seatbelt signs go off and The Pack makes a rush for the toilets ... :ugh:

[PleaseSayAgain]

...until the seatbelt signs go off and The Pack makes a rush for the toilets...

That for me is one of the last great mysteries. No matter how much time people have spent in the terminal building/lounges with plenty of access to bathrooms, once the seat belt signs go, there is always a handful of passengers dashing for the toilets immediately... :}

Another thing. Arriving at the gate 15 minutes late only having to further delay departure because there are still people showing up at the last minute, usually with two duty free bags plus the odd coffee/big mac in their hands is usually quite annoying. I has always amazed me that in the case of a delayed inbound aircraft, still the odd passenger on the next flight almost manages (and often does manage) to miss it, even though you would expect them to be standing ready to board at once by that time...:rolleyes:

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[deltahotel]

Q2. I'm with Mark1234 on this - do my own cks on way in. But always look at the CC while they do their thing - it's a courtesy thing and I know how I would feel talking to a load of tops of heads.

Q9. Can't remember the last time I did a greaser, but then I fly freight and the parcels neither care nor complain.

[25F]

I remember a BAC 1-11 in the seventies which had a backwards-facing row of seats at the over-wing exit(s), so there was a clear access. These seats were very popular with families as it allowed parents and kids to sit facing each other.

[PAXboy]

I recall travelling on a Trident LHR~HAM in December 1975 that had an experiment with a few rows of rear facing seats at the front of the Y cabin. At check-in, I was asked if I would sit there and fill in the questionnaire. Naturally I did and it was all very comfortable.

My guess as to why they have never made them standard around the world is that, they would have to tell folks that it is safer that way in an emergency stop or incident. THEN they would have to explain to folks why they had not reversed the seating years ago! :ooh:

[JFW]

I'm sure that I remember taking a charter flight in (I think) a 1-11, in the late '70's. The front half of the cabin had rear facing seats, the back half frontward facing. Not sure if this was a common configuration though, it was incredibly cramped, so I suppose it could have been just for the charter market.

[MrSoft]

Me too, I think Dan Air may have had the rear-facing 1-11 seats.

Also I am sure I didn't dream it, but the meal was locked inside the seat in a little integral 'larder' just above the tray table. Dread to think what Health and Safety would make of that today. Or maybe it was a dream.

Paxboy, the Trident at MAN viewing park has this config if you want t nosey. Gorgeous restoration. Sorry for thread drift.

[Wodrick]

Dan 1-11s had rear facing seats at the overwing escapes so I'm told. beloved was cabin staff trainer for Dan, she has vivid memory of the slot in lap trays always collapsing !

[Pax Vobiscum]

Even with access to meaningful statistics (which I agree 99% of pax don't have and don't want) it would be very difficult to make a sensible choice of airline based on safety issues. For example, if I want to fly LHR-JFK, I can choose between four major carriers all with excellent safety records - safety isn't going to be a consideration in my choice. Even if there was an airline operating from STN that could somehow guarantee my safe arrival (as opposed to the let us say 1 in 10^8 chance of a fatality flying from LHR), it would actually be more dangerous for me to use it because I would have to traverse an extra 80 miles of the M25 in order to do so. Very similar arguments apply if I want to fly LHR-DUS or anywhere within Europe.

Now consider flights where safety might be a greater concern - I would like to fly from London to Jakarta. I can fly direct with Garuda or via FRA with LH. I've no wish to slight Garuda, but their safety record is probably worse than Lufthansa. However, apart from the inconvenience and time lost in an intermediate stop, the indirect route involves twice as many takeoffs and landings (you can see I wasn't a trained actuary for nothing, can't you :)). Since these are the most dangerous (relatively speaking) part of any flight, it may well be that the Garuda option is the safer.

Phew - hope that helps, Slasher

[17thhour]

The original poster,

They are paying your wages.

They are not working for you; you are working for them.

The passengers dont need you; you need them.

[parabellum]

LHR to Jakarta, you could also fly SIA to Singapore and on to Jakarta and the same for the return. One extra stop but an easy one at Changi.

[sitigeltfel]

Re rear facing seats. The RAF transport fleet was always fitted out with this configuration, allegedly on safety grounds. Is this still the case? The theory was that in an impact you would be cushioned by the seat rather than slamming into the one in front.

[Rainboe]

Re rear facing seats. The RAF transport fleet was always fitted out with this configuration, allegedly on safety grounds. Is this still the case? The theory was that in an impact you would be cushioned by the seat rather than slamming into the one in front.
Questionable assertion of higher safety! Facing the rear, you are going to get all flying objects full in the face. In addition, under high 'g' loads, your hinged seatback IS going to collapse, with the full weight of your body on it plus the weight of the seat back. I would rather try my luck in a forward facing seat in the brace position where only the weight of my body, restrained at the lap, was pulling on the seat. Nobody has ever proved that rear facing seats provide any more sucurity, and I believe they most certainly don't.

[jezzbaldwin]

Prior to starting pilot training (some time in the dim and distant past), I clocked up a few squillion hours as SLF. I was one of the guilty ones who plonk posterior in seat and get on with reading the Times.
Then one day I was joined by a senior widebody (dont remember the type) P1 who was deadheading. He was a fountain of knowledge and very amiable, but his take on the safety brief was best:
"you may know the safety brief, and so may I, but just think how disheartening it must be for the cabin crew to stand there and see people's heads and not a single pair of eyes".
Good point! I now always pay attention out of courtesy to the cabin crew.

[AdamC]

1. SLFs sometimes wont lock an aircraft toilet door yet theyll unfailingley lock it in a public dunny. Why?

Pass - I always lock the door.

2. Most pax cant be bothered watching the Pre-TO Emergencey brief while the intellegent few do. This usualy determines who most likely will be still alive after the evac and wholl be dead. Is it a macho thing to ignore the brief or somethin?

I listen and watch, even if I have seen it on the same airline and aircraft 1000 times before.

3. Why do SLFs complain about the legroom and pitch of cattle-class seats? Your stuffed in seats like sardines in return for a lower fare and Economy class is named because its exactley that - ECONOMY!

I don't, being 16 I don't exactly need much legroom :cool:

4. Why do pax insist on flying with carriers who have dangerus safety records? Do cheap airfares override survival instincts? Would you do the same and ride with a dangerus bus or taxi company?

Like whom?

5. Why the rush to disembark? You could be standing in the isle for 20mins if the Manifest isnt accurate or the Traffic guy is an inexperienced snot-nosed kid.

I've no idea, pass.. I always sit down until the mad rush has finished.

6. Is an aircraft toilet realy more complicated to use than a reguler dunny? The flush button is in the same spot like any other thunderbox, and the tap/sink doesnt require a PhD to figure out.

I always flush the toilet.

7. If you slop up your dunny at home you clean it up. So why do you expect the stewardesses to clean YOUR ungodley mess up? :rolleyes:

I don't make a mess so I'm fine there. If I did, i'd clean it.

8. Do some of you think pilots fly through severe turbulence because we WANT to?

No.. I never complain about it, it's something that cannot be avoided and I understand that.

9. Why do you believe a smooth greazey touchdown on landing is somehow the measure of a pilots total skill?

I don't.. Everyone likes a smooth touchdown, but smooth or not doesn't tell you anything of the pilots overall skill.. They got you to your destination safely, so that must prove they have a skill that most people don't!

10. If you depart early you arrive early at your destination. Why is there ALWAYS the bloodey annoying 1% who insist on boarding at the last minute after everyone else has been on-board for the last 20?

You tell us??

[Dushan]

6. Is an aircraft toilet realy more complicated to use than a reguler dunny? The flush button is in the same spot like any other thunderbox, and the tap/sink doesnt require a PhD to figure out.


Well the design of the flushing operation on an Airbus is a perfect example of the French approach. The "we know best" aproach. It seems that the "flush" is delayed from the moment the button is pressed. A minuscule amount of flushing liquid is dispensed with a great deal of force and air. The air dries the flap and makes any furure deposits stick to it. You do the rest of the thinking process mutliplied by the number of PAX. The lump gets pretty big before the wheels come out.

[Spelunker]

Well what I have found out as a pilot is that most pilots can't spell for ****, and why do none of them know the difference between "your" and "you're", "to" and "too"?

[Skintman]

Hey pilots

Do large jets have a key/chip to the door and are they locked up when not in use?:sad:

Also do they have a key/chip to start it going?:uhoh:

Pretty detailed questions hey!!

Just wondered, not thinking of nicking one in case you wondered.:E

Skintman

[PAXboy]

Non-pilot speaking
Many of them have a key-code on a pad to enter. On many flights, if you are in rows 1 or 2 and seats C or D, you can clearly see what the number is as the CC and FC enter the code. Whether the pads could have been better placed, or staff have not been told to shield their hands, who knows. Of course, if you are carrying something, then shielding the pad is more difficult. There are pads available where the buttons face up, rather than out.

[Nicholas49]

2. Because they think the safety brief makes no difference. On a BA flight once, the captain explained why people should listen to it. Guess what? Everyone listened. Try it. You are respected. The cabin crew are not.

5. Ever seen what happens when a train pulls into a station? 50 people crowd around one door and then block everyone trying to get off. At least there's ground crew to stop that happening at airports!

8. Nope, but those flights with terrible turbulence and not a word from the flight deck to reassure pax certainly don't help dispel the myth.

9. Because most pax do not hold an ATPL and have never had it explained that a hard landing does not mean a bad landing. Again, explain what you did while taxiing to the gate and you'll pass on the knowledge!

[TightSlot]

Ref: Keypad

The procedure for Flight Deck access is actually rather more complicated than PAXboy has covered above: I don't propose discussing it, and won't allow anybody else to do so either.

Sorry Skintman - your question is straying too close to matters best not discussed on PPRuNe.

[oldpax]

I reckon pilot "Slasher"has a sense of humour and is one of those pilots who wait until the meal is served and then finds the nearest bit of turbulence!Flying in DC-4s and DC -6s there wasnt a great deal pilots could do to avaoid turbulence!Of course then Captains could wander through the cabin and chat to passengers and were nice refined chaps.If they could do it today Slasher would you be polite or tell them of for leaving the "dunny"dirty!!

[25F]

TightSlot, it's natural to want to keep trade secrets secret. However in many cases it's actually much better to open up security protocols to scrutiny. Not doing so is what we computer types call "security through obscurity" and it's been shown again and again to simply not work. Secret protocols are okay as long as they are truly secret. Which is pretty much impossible to achieve outside of the security services. (OK, let's amend that to "impossible to achieve full stop".) But even then the most secure encryption or security protocols are those where the whole methodology has been published for public scrutiny,

And, err, what do you think *you* know that Osama and friends wouldn't be
able to find out PDQ?

[TightSlot]

25F - Although interesting in a theoretical sense, I shall continue to ignore the points raised in a practical sense. I'm sure people can find out the information for themselves from somewhere, but that somewhere won't be PPRuNe.




:)

[Skintman]

Hi Tightslot

Understood, but I wasn't really asking if they use a key/keypad to get into the cockpit (I can understand the security implications here), but to get into the plane itself, ie the entrance door to the plane. Just wondered. :uhoh:

Thanks

Skintman

[FlightDetent]

Skintman Quite like you I do understand TS's position and in my practice excercise accordingly. This is my view that attempts to avoid the twilight of security protocols and answer your Q:

Entrance doors on large passanger aircraft do not have any locks. Just a handle to open. As far as security evaluation goes, the reasoning is that once you are allowed airside, and know how to operate an aircraft, you can do harm. Fitting a lock will not stop you and so there is no need to install one.

RE: cockpit door (not a part of your question). In the post 9/11 era, aircraft are equipped with intrusion proof flightdeck doors that are locked. The procedure to open it is not based on a hardware item as this woud be easily obtainable by a would-be criminal. The procedures are far more advanced, airline specific, and must not be discussed on an open forum like this one.

Apart fromsome small aircraft, there is no "key" to start, car-wise. Just a number of pushbuttons, levers, switches, and selectors. The logic suggested above applies.

Yours,
FD (the un-real)

[BaronChotzinoff]

Another thing. Arriving at the gate 15 minutes late only having to further delay departure because there are still people showing up at the last minute, usually with two duty free bags plus the odd coffee/big mac in their hands is usually quite annoying. I has always amazed me that in the case of a delayed inbound aircraft, still the odd passenger on the next flight almost manages (and often does manage) to miss it, even though you would expect them to be standing ready to board at once by that time...

If you're a frequent flyer you get sick of being herded like cattle by the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet well before the flight's due to take off. I'll always check the Arrivals board and go down as the plane's due to land, hopefully not having to queue at passport control which would mean missing my Speedy Boarding privilege (which often means Fatso chooses you instead of you choosing to avoid him, but that's another subject). But some people clearly cut it even finer than that. I'd say if you've not got checked luggage it's very risky, otherwise you should be fine though I don't condone it.

Re watching the safety demo, I'll only look up if I feel the attendant welcomes it and isn't embarrassed about being oggled by lots of people with no interest at all in what he/she's actually doing. And when they have to blow into the whistle I find it very hard to maintain eye contact ... :O

[mp413]

I'm only responding to those things I do/apply to me (some of them are surprising, like people not locking the door):

2. I don't think it's a "macho" thing for anyone. Crashes are super rare, and as someone else said, I feel (however statistically incorrectly) that crash = we all die. It sounds like there are statistics that pax who pay attention are more likely to survive, but I've been a FF for well over a decade and didn't know that til coming to this forum. If those statistics were in the opening safety briefing, I bet a lot more pax would pay attention!

4. Airline safety records aren't very accessible. You only hear about major incidents from the media, and major incidents are extremely rare and not the true/only gauge of an airline's safety. I have no idea where to find other types of safety reports other than FAA/NTSB (I'm American) websites which are incredibly user-unfriendly and full of industry jargon the layperson can't get past. If someone published a safety report that actually compared airlines AND that pax could easily understand, no question that would affect their decisions as to who to fly with. For example, from reading this forum I would think twice about flying a SE Asian airline. If it became clear from posts on the Rumours forum that my usual airline at home was unsafe, that would certainly affect my next airfare purchase.

5. I sit til the last possible moment! Lazy I guess :)

7. I will certainly do a basic wipe-down if I make a mess, as a courtesy for the next pax, but I don't generally clean up a public toilet. I don't mean this in a bad way, but it's someone else's actual job (whether it's in the CC's job description I don't know, but if it is sorry to say but they should do it and not complain).

10. As someone said, we're about to be stuck on the damn thing for flight-time plus whatever undisclosed amount of time the pilots know we'll be sitting on the tarmac after scheduled departure time (for those on-time stats). Thanks but I'll be at the bar :)

By the way, is there some place we get to pick your minds about why CC do the things they do that mystify us pax?!

[TightSlot]

is there some place we get to pick your minds about why CC do the things they do that mystify us pax

Right here is good...

[PleaseSayAgain]

Airline safety records aren't very accessible.

Hmm, not necessarily. This came up as the first result on a quick Google search:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/operator/

And it seems there is more for the ones that are interested. I would reckon that people just can't be bothered because it would involve searching for information that is not instantly available at their convenience. It would be a nice gesture for the airlines to put a link to such databases on their website, but I guess they know pax are not that fussed about it and if you have had a serious accident as an airline why would you bother doing so? :rolleyes:


PSA

[Pax Vobiscum]

I agree that most pax are not interested in safety stats (the ones that read PPRuNe are probably not a representative sample :)), but even for those of us who are interested, it's very difficult to draw meaningful comparisons.

This is because air accidents are very rare - in large part due to enormous efforts from all those involved in aviation to make it (and keep it) so safe. Because they are rare events, you need to go back a very long way to gather enough data for a statistically valid analysis, probably more than 25 years. The trouble is that over the course of 25 years, everything changes. The aircraft fleets, the pilots flying them and the safety systems associated with them are all very different.

But what we want to know is: will my flight next week be safer if I travel with operator A or operator B. The 'fact' that operator A has a better record over 25 years, doesn't necessarily tell us about how much safer their operation is today.

In an earlier post, I gave an example of choosing to fly Lufthansa as opposed to Garuda. I'm too lazy to analyse the stats, but I wouldn't be surprised if they suggested that Lufthansa is the safer choice. But I've no way of knowing whether that's because they have more modern aircraft, better or better trained pilots - or if it's because Lufthansa operate the majority of their flights in Europe to airports equipped with modern navigational aids and in relatively benign weather. If it's the potential for tropical storms that is the problem, then the 'dangerous' choice I've made is to travel to Jakarta, but I may not have much control over that!

[PAXboy]

Also PV, as you pointed out in that other thread, the most critical part of any flight is rotation and landing. The transition from the lower to higher flight levels, and the reverse, is the time when you are much more likely to encounter problems.

If you fly long haul direct by an airline with a supposedly poorer record OR by taking two or three shorter flights - all with carriers thought to be the safest operating companies - you will still be at higher risk by taking multiple flights.

Accordingly, generalities prevail.

[drichard]

Tightslot #24 : The Cranfield (and other) research found that evac flow rate at the overwing exits was actually speeded up in some cases when seats were present in the exit row, as opposed to when removed partially or fully - I know, this sounds bizarre.

This is intended to be a serious response : I believe this has to do with the natural hearding instinct, there are studies which indicate that persons exiting an area through a constriction (door, window etc.) in a panic situation do so in bursts and not constantly. This is a paper based on a study using mice here (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=218693), and reading this, my conclusion is that having the seats in the exit row disrupts this hearding behaviour - encouraging queueing, leading to a more consistent flow rate through the exit portal.

On a similar line, I remember watching a study of "exiting a room in a panic situation through double doors", and placing a barrier in line with the centre of the exit portal, significantly increased the throughput.

[PAXboy]

That all makes sense drichard. The throughput of vehicles on the M25 (UK motorway) is improved by lowering the speed limit from 70mph to 60 or even 50.

If there is an 'open run' to the portal, then people will rush in and impede each other. If there is a small barrier, then they have to slow to negotiate it and that staggers the flow and allows people at the portal to exit more smoothly. This completes the feedback loop and the frequency of people passing through the portal increases.

[10secondsurvey]

I'm sorry, I've heard the argumentation thing about seats at exit rows actually speed up evacuation, but I think it's tenuous to say the least, and oh how awfully convenient for the beancounters - don't you think.

Why do exit rows have more space at them than regular rows, why do some exits have no seats at them (like the main doors (front and rear))?? If the theory that wide open evacuation spaces hinder passengers leaving, and so rows of seat are added 'for safety reasons' then why do they leave so much space around some doorways and not others. It just doesn't wash, and the evidence supporting extra exit row seats is flimsy to say the least, and, I believe it has been stated would only be applicable in certain scenarios.

No, let's just get real, seats are added in to wing exit rows for financial reasons. It has b*gger all to do with making evacuation quicker, or passengers safer.

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Quote

Re rear facing seats. The RAF transport fleet was always fitted out with this configuration, allegedly on safety grounds. Is this still the case? The theory was that in an impact you would be cushioned by the seat rather than slamming into the one in front.

I recall in the 70's flying to Nicosia in Cyprus that the Trident "Sunjet" had rear facing seats at Emergency exits.

[Contacttower]

Re rear facing seats. The RAF transport fleet was always fitted out with this configuration, allegedly on safety grounds. Is this still the case? The theory was that in an impact you would be cushioned by the seat rather than slamming into the one in front.



A brief extract from the report into the crash of Air France Flight 358:

The two crew members who had suffered serious impact injuries were able to perform their emergency duties effectively. Passengers who incurred impact injuries were ambulatory during the evacuation. One of the
cabin crew, seated in the same general area as the crew and passengers who incurred serious impact injuries, was not injured. This cabin crew's seat was aft-facing; the other seats were forward-facing.


While it doesn't prove anything, in this case at least facing aft does seem to have helped.

[silverelise]

why do some exits have no seats at them (like the main doors (front and rear))??
I guess it would be quite a challenge for the caterers to get the trolleys in to the galley if they put seats across the front and rear main doors. :rolleyes:

[Dushan]

quite a challenge for the caterers to get the trolleys in to the galley
The beancounters would all too happy to eliminate the caterers, the galley, and one more loo, in favour of more seats. Don't give them any ideas.

[Avitor]

Irritating pax? How about OTT pilots then? Fly the a/c and leave the pax to those who's job it is to sort them. As Captain, you are needed when c.c report incidents to you. Otherwise.....!

HTH. :}

[llanfairpg]

One question I always ask when i am the pilot.

Can I have a window seat please?

Always works

[Seat62K]

Apropos the emergency exit topic, I seem to remember BA blocking doors (2) on its 747-136s in order to fit extra seats (or did I imagine that?). Didn't KLM do something similar?
An earlier poster commented that when flying Club he didn't board early. For me, though, one of the pleasures of travelling Club World is taking my seat on the upper deck at the earliest opportunity (particularly if it means getting out of the crowded Terraces lounge in T4) and having time for a glass or two of champagne before pushback!

[grimmrad]

1. Beats me, I always lock it because otherwise THE LIGHT WONT GO ON...
2. Because we may have heard it 1000 times +1 (I always look at the nearest emergency exit and count the rows though, also have a look at the writen info provided)
3. Because even it is economy it is still not really a bargain (on long haul at least) and why not getting the better deal? If your airline provides 30 cm and 5 degree and another 40 cm and 15 degr. I know which to choose for a comparable price... (There goes your salary...)
4. I don't insist on doing that. Unless UA, BA LH Ek has bad safety...? I live in a city which is serviced by most of the major airlines.
5. Beats me
6. Seems to me that the flushes are different in various models and types though, apparently you have never used one (see also #1)
7. I clean it up myself
8. Sure. Absolutely. They actually ask the CC if the just provided the drinks before they do that... For the same reason you are asking these questions
9. Absolutly! What else?
10. Maybe because the connecting flight of your airline was bloody late...?

[TheWestCoast]

10 questions Ive always wanted to know the answers to -

1. SLFs sometimes wont lock an aircraft toilet door yet theyll unfailingley lock it in a public dunny. Why?

NO CLUE, BEATS THE CRAP OUT ME.

2. Most pax cant be bothered watching the Pre-TO Emergencey brief while the intellegent few do. This usualy determines who most likely will be still alive after the evac and wholl be dead. Is it a macho thing to ignore the brief or somethin?

NOPE, FOR SOME IT'S STUPIDITY OR IGNORANCE, FOR OTHERS IT MIGHT BE THE THIRD OR FOURTH FLIGHT OF THE DAY AND THE 20TH OF THE WEEK AND WE FIGURED OUT WHERE THE NEAREST EXIT IS AS WE GOT ON, AND WE KNOW WHERE THE OXYGEN/VEST/SEAT CUSHION IS AND HOW TO USE THEM. PERSONALLY, I'M NEVER COCKY WHEN IT COMES TO THE EMERGENCY BRIEFING. I DON'T MAKE A POINT OF IGNORING IT, BUT AS FAR AS UNDIVIDED ATTENTION GOES, I MIGHT BE GOING ON 2 HOURS SLEEP AND I'D RATHER BE GETTING SOME SHUT-EYE AT THIS POINT IN MY DAY.

3. Why do SLFs complain about the legroom and pitch of cattle-class seats? Your stuffed in seats like sardines in return for a lower fare and Economy class is named because its exactley that - ECONOMY!

BECAUSE OUR COMPANIES' TRAVEL POLICIES DICTATE THAT WE SIT IN THAT CLASS OF SEAT AND, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, THAT SEAT IS MOST UNCOMFORTABLE AFTER 3 HOURS. I'LL DO ANYTHING I MORALLY CAN TO GET THE BEST SEAT OF A BAD SELECTION. PART AND PARCEL OF BUSINESS TRAVEL TODAY. I DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT, HOWEVER, BECAUSE THAT GETS YOU NOWHERE.

4. Why do pax insist on flying with carriers who have dangerus safety records? Do cheap airfares override survival instincts? Would you do the same and ride with a dangerus bus or taxi company?

SORRY, AT THIS POINT, CAN I JUST ASK, IS SPELLING ABILITY A REQUIREMENT FOR AIRLINE PILOTS?

5. Why the rush to disembark? You could be standing in the isle for 20mins if the Manifest isnt accurate or the Traffic guy is an inexperienced snot-nosed kid.

BECAUSE WE'RE SICK OF SITTING DOWN. STANDING UP FEELS REALLY GOOD - SEE ANSWER TO QUESTION 3. AND WE MAY ALSO BE IN A RUSH TO GET SOMEWHERE, LIKE HOME, A MEETING, OR ANOTHER GATE.

6. Is an aircraft toilet realy more complicated to use than a reguler dunny? The flush button is in the same spot like any other thunderbox, and the tap/sink doesnt require a PhD to figure out.

NOPE. DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT HERE. THUNDERBOX?

7. If you slop up your dunny at home you clean it up. So why do you expect the stewardesses to clean YOUR ungodley mess up? :rolleyes:

I DON'T.

8. Do some of you think pilots fly through severe turbulence because we WANT to?

NOPE, BUT YOUR COMPANY MIGHT.

9. Why do you believe a smooth greazey touchdown on landing is somehow the measure of a pilots total skill?

I DON'T.

10. If you depart early you arrive early at your destination. Why is there ALWAYS the bloodey annoying 1% who insist on boarding at the last minute after everyone else has been on-board for the last 20?

ER, MAYBE THEY WERE DELAYED ON AN INBOUND FLIGHT AND ONLY JUST MADE IT. SEE RESPONSE TO QUESTION 5.

[MidgetBoy]

9> I think, for larger jets, it's because mostly everything else is autopilot, and if it isn't, passengers are almost always awake for the landing but not necessarily awake for the rest of the flight.

[///mav]

1. SLFs sometimes wont lock an aircraft toilet door yet theyll unfailingley lock it in a public dunny. Why?

I've never done this, so can't comment. I do sometimes wonder why some people don't do this in pubs and at festivals, although those people are more likely to be intoxicated. Either that or they are the same people.

2. Most pax cant be bothered watching the Pre-TO Emergencey brief while the intellegent few do. This usualy determines who most likely will be still alive after the evac and wholl be dead. Is it a macho thing to ignore the brief or somethin?

I do, but I've travelled with people who don't and they are either a) scared of flying and doing whatever they can to take their mind off the situation, which doesn't exactly make sense - if they're scared flying they're probably scared of crashing and I'd have thought the safety briefing would be of use to them, but apparently not the case. b) they've flown the same route, on the same aircraft, so many time it's pretty much a commute to them and feels like getting on a bus, they know where the exits are, pretty much always sit in the same seats and don't fell the need to watch. c) they're idiots.

I will confess to not having read the card on my last couple of flights BUT I was in a bulkhead seat and the card was too far away to reach without getting up, and the seatbelt sign was on, so I was in a dilemma as to whether to stand up and get it with the cabin crew stood right next to me, or to just listen to them and watch the video.

3. Why do SLFs complain about the legroom and pitch of cattle-class seats? Your stuffed in seats like sardines in return for a lower fare and Economy class is named because its exactley that - ECONOMY!

This is why I don't travel economy on long flights..

4. Why do pax insist on flying with carriers who have dangerus safety records? Do cheap airfares override survival instincts? Would you do the same and ride with a dangerus bus or taxi company?

Never done it knowingly. I found out one airline I used didn't have a great safety record, but I didn't know until a few years later and they were the only option for domestic flights in that country. I'd rather be as safe as possible whatever the form of transport, hence I don't get unlicensed cabs either..

5. Why the rush to disembark? You could be standing in the isle for 20mins if the Manifest isnt accurate or the Traffic guy is an inexperienced snot-nosed kid.

Never understood this, cannot stand people doing it. :* Mainly can't stand the people who have to get up before the 'plane has stopped, even if they have another flight to get to or whatever, what's the point? I've been on flights where people have been standing up, bent over, for 30-45 minutes (at least it felt like that) while we were getting to the terminal. Myabe I'm lazy, but I prefer to be sitting down until the doors are open.

6. Is an aircraft toilet realy more complicated to use than a reguler dunny? The flush button is in the same spot like any other thunderbox, and the tap/sink doesnt require a PhD to figure out.

Not really, no. I mean, the delay in the flush can be a tad confusing but other than that, it's all self explanatory. The lighting can be terrifying though, maybe some people are so scared to see how bad they look in the mirror that they become confused and incompetent?

7. If you slop up your dunny at home you clean it up. So why do you expect the stewardesses to clean YOUR ungodley mess up?

I don't, and I'm guessing these are the same people who think they can make a mess in any 'public' type toilet and someone else should clean up after them.

8. Do some of you think pilots fly through severe turbulence because we WANT to?

No. I sympathise with the people who are scared by it, but never thought it was deliberate.

9. Why do you believe a smooth greazey touchdown on landing is somehow the measure of a pilots total skill?

I don't, it's nice when it happens, it can be a bit un-nerving when it's a bit rocky, but I know it's not everything.

10. If you depart early you arrive early at your destination. Why is there ALWAYS the bloodey annoying 1% who insist on boarding at the last minute after everyone else has been on-board for the last 20?

There's some valid reasons already been mentioned, but those aside: because they are selfish idiots :rolleyes:

[liteswap]

5. Why stand up? Because I've been through at least three - usually five - seemingly interminable queues and hours of sausage-machine-style processing just in order to get to an under-sized seat into which I've been shoe-horned for too long (especially if the flight's more than about 90 minutes) and I can't wait to stand up.

As a minimum hours PPL, I used to enjoy being up in the air but the modern commercial flying experience seems somehow to suck any remaining joy out of it. I just want to get on and off as quickly as possible and get on with my day.

What's more, four times out of five I travel with just hand luggage, and I know what time the train home is, so getting out of the tin tube as quickly as possible means I get to the front of the immigration queue and on my way quickly. It just helps improve my day.

Fair enough?