Are WSO going to change their Brevets?

[Futurnav]

Evening gents

I was just wondering if WSO's are going to keep their original 'N' brevet or change it?

thanks

FUTURNAV

[Chris Kebab]

as my mate "The Nav" explains to me if you haven't got an "N" now you won't ever get one.
E-bay excepting..

Those that have an "N" seem to have a free choice as to whether to swap 'em over.

[Pontius Navigator]

There have been several changes of brevet for different categories.

I know many Observers retained the O rather than the more modern N.

I believe commissioned Signallers were given permission to switch to AE and I know one who was a Signaller, posted to an AEO post in the V-Force and made the point that he was not trained as an AEO. He was chopped. In his case there was clearly brevet confusion at the Air Secs.

Apart from the N brevet distinguishing between navigation training and electronics and its retention as an historic badge, there is the sheer faf of changing to a new brevet. The cost, whilst minor, may also be a consideration.

The brevets that were changed were the pilots brevet when the Tudor crown came in. Likewise beret and SD hat badges.

Me? I was trained as a navigator, I have an N, and I shall keep it.

I meant to add that ROs changed to N as soon as they completed the nav course. Also Load Masters - LM used to be Air QuarterMaster - AM (?) but I don't know if many hung on to the old brevet.

[VinRouge]

What happens when Charlie takes over as the big cheese though? I am guessing they wont produce the nav brevet with the correct crown?

[Tiger_mate]

Apparently the 'Kings Crown' / 'Queens Crown' is not as clear cut as is generally believed, and is born of coincidental timing with Queenies Coronation. In short, one way or another we are eventually in for a gentleman monarchy, unless of cause the PC world demands sexual equality and Anne gets it, which in itself is quite possible, but a man in charge does not mean that the crown must change. As has already been mentioned, we have a Tudor Crown, not a Queens Crown.

[Pontius Navigator]

What happens when Charlie takes over as the big cheese though? I am guessing they wont produce the nav brevet with the correct crown?

But the Nav brevet does not have a crown!

If the crown be changed then it is WSOs who must change.

[Trev Clark]

Also Load Masters - LM used to be Air QuarterMaster - AM (?) but I don't know if many hung on to the old brevet.

The original flying badge had the letters QM on, but by my time in the late 1970's, I never saw any of the 'old sweats' wearing the QM badge. The QM badge only had a life of 8 years and many of the older guys flew for years as (temporary paid) Sergeants and no flying badge at all. I do not think it had enough history to warrant anybody not changing.

[wokkameister]

Despite the fact that old and bold Navs are eligible to continue wearing the Nav Brevet, you won't have a lot of luck from stores.
I qualified as a Loadmaster a , ahem, few years ago but as soon as this WSOp crap started, the LM brevets dissappeared and if I want a brevet for my No1's (which come with one of the naff WSOp brevets as default), then I end up apying six quid for it.

Beancounters, your end is nigh!

Rant Over

WM Out

[BluntM8]

Mate, you're well behind the drag curve. The last cse of Navs to be awarded the N brevet was about 480ish - and we're now on cse 504!

There is a gallery of all the old cse badges at Cranwell, I'll go and have a look to get the exact one sometime soon and try to post a photo of the cse badge!

Blunty

[Spam_UK]

All aircrew (with the obvious exception of pilot) now wear the Generic RAF Brevet as far as the official word is. You can however wear trade specific brevets on your mess dress. This I was told as I left Cranwell.

Also I was told that WSO's going onto some of the tanker aircraft can still wear the 'N' brevet on there flying suit etc. as there aren't any Weapons Systems on board. But the person telling me may have been mistaken.

Hope this helps.

Spam

[Pontius Navigator]

Spam, I have never heard that and I get shed loads of bumf across my desk before it is filed neatly in the round filing cabinet.

Could be wrong but it breaks the traditions. I have the N brevet. I have a couple of spares too!

[stickmonkeytamer]

474 ANC was the last course to be given N brevets, I think... The first WSO brevet was given to a Nimrod WSO with a rat tail... ;)

SMT

[teeteringhead]

Apparently the 'Kings Crown' / 'Queens Crown' is not as clear cut as is generally believed

..... have to disagree there old mate. many years ago the Kings'/Queens' thing was briefed to me, and as evidence the crowns on GCs and VCs were shown. The GC is clearly what we call a "King's Crown" while the VC has the one we use today - and Vicky was the last previous Queen regnant.

I'll try and find some pictures to illustrate it.

'Spose we'll have to wait until Charles III (or possibly George VII) gets in......

Edited to add VC piccy - with "Queens' Crown"

http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/Assets/medals/vc.jpg

[Vortex_Generator]

The "Crown" issue has been done before, here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256906&highlight=kings+crown

[Wader2]

AP 1358 Ch 7:

"Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will be no further provisioning of the current brevet."

So there you have it. There is no compulsion to change to a:

"The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster."

Now why should Fighter Controller (FC) wear a badge to show that the are not qualified rear crew? Not all qualified "RAF/" rear crew can navigate, load, engineer, or operate so why is there a need to identify peope who can't rear crew?

[GalleyTeapot]

What about Linguists? Also not all WSO are ex N brevet, what about the AEO who wears AE bur in now called WSO too!

[Wader2]

What about Linguists?

What about linguists? I think you will find there is no mention of linguists in Ch 7 of the AP.

Also not all WSO are ex N brevet, what about the AEO who wears AE bur in now called WSO too!

Indeed, I thought that was the point I made above.

Edited to add, all 'navigators' were taught to navigate. True some were streamed fast-jet and did no astro and others were streamed ME and did little FJ work but they were all qualified as navigators and in the fullness of time many would swap from one role to another. True, fewer would swap ME to FJ although lots of Shack rear crew made that transition.

Paperwork wise, instead of being gd/n or nav they must now be WSO(N) which is twice the number of characters and 5 extra keystrokes. Very inefficient.

[UberPilot]

Surely GD(N) is now FLY(WSO)?

You can only join as WSO(N) can't you, there is nothing else WSO?

[Wader2]

Surely GD(N) is now FLY(WSO)?

You can only join as WSO(N) can't you, there is nothing else WSO?

Accept that it is now Fly(WSO) but nothing else? There are engineers, electronic and loadmaster. All trained differently, do entirely different jobs and all wear the same brevet.

[airsound]

As a founder member of SODCAT (Society of Directional Consultants and Allied Trades), I'm quite glad I don't have to cope with the complications elucidated here.

Good luck to all - and never forget, you're not lost, only temporarily uncertain of position.

airsound

[Blakey875]

Pontius - The Air Quartermaster brevet used to actually say QM. Because the poor chaps got fed up with being alikened to Flying Storemen they stole the USAFdescription of Loadmaster.... but still provision the rations!

[Trev Clark]

Pontius - The Air Quartermaster brevet used to actually say QM. Because the poor chaps got fed up with being alikened to Flying Storemen they stole the USAFdescription of Loadmaster.... but still provision the rations!

Yep, I think I mentioned that in my earlier post, however as the original source of Air Quartermasters was from the Ground Supply trade group (AMO A115/62), you can almost see what the powers that be were thinking, for a change.
As far as linguists are concerned, did they not fly for years as 'Signallers' with the old 'S' style badge. In the 70s and 80s they were a little 'hush, hush' but I see now that they are a trade listed on the RAF careers site under WSOps.
Are A/T (Airborne Technicians) still going and do they fall into the same catagory as the F/C lot.

[BluntM8]

Ooh, SODCAT. Is that like FOLA? Can I join?

[Pontius Navigator]

Toadstool, I read it as AEO and AEOp - two different animals thus that makes 5.

As for AT, yes, AT and FC exist outside WSO when in fact an FC is probably much more of a WSO than an E3 Nav.

[GasFitter]

If the senior Navs in the RAF changed their brevets over to WSO, would anyone follow?

[Brain Potter]

From what I've seen the only Navs that have switched are senior ones. Perhaps it denotes a fully qualified party-line tower?

Isn't that the sort of leadership you like though GF? ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

If the senior Navs in the RAF changed their brevets over to WSO, would anyone follow?

Only to the toilet and then out of curiousity

[OHP 15M]

The way it was explained to me was that the letter in the brevet indicates the individuals' level of knowledge:

E - Engineers know Everything

AE - Air Electronics Operators know Absolutely Everything

N - Navigators know Nothing

S - Signallers probably know Something, possibly

LM - Limited Mentality

FC - This just stands for Fu**ing C**t !!

:ok:

[BluntM8]

Similar system now mate, just slightly cruder...


WSO - will sh@g often.

WSOp - won't sh@g other people.


And they wonder why we all look so cheerful....:E

Blunty

[GasFitter]

BP

Isn't that the sort of leadership you like though GF?

.... and in the interests of not embarking on 'Thread Creep' I shall refrain from anwsering!
:oh::oh::oh::oh::oh::oh::oh::oh::oh::oh::oh::oh:

[BEagle]

"If the senior Navs in the RAF changed their brevets over to WSO, would anyone follow?"

If that's 'senior' as in those who make the cushions damp in dark corners of 4-engined aeroplanes, then WSO = Wee Smelling Oldie... So, unlikely to change to a WSO badge unless matron tells them to.

If that's 'senior' as in quite a few rings to his/her/its sleeve, then WSO = Will Sell Out (for suitable perks, such as a K), so would probably ditch the N badge to look 'kewel' and 'in touch with Our Most Important People'.......

[Wader2]

Surely GD(N) is now FLY(WSO)?

You can only join as WSO(N) can't you, there is nothing else WSO?

I see this has even changed. Latest orders just received have FB/P.

No general duties cr*p then :}

[Avtur]

I have noticed that most AEOs (thats Commissioned AEOps for you FJ people) over the last few years have started to wear the rear crew brevet. Non Commissioned AEOps (thats non Commissioned AEOps for you FJ people) who are entitled, continue to wear proudly their AE brevet. This is probably due to the embarrassment and grief AEOs suffered whilste wearing the AE brevet as being identified as a tac screen sun visor. They have, over the last few years, considered the rationalisation of brevets as being a God-send, so they can now pretend to be "Navigators"... I guess they will still get grief anyway.

[Spam_UK]

Who'd want to pretend to be a navigator?? :}


Helmet on

[OHP 15M]

Is it true that AEOp stands for Always Eating Or Pissed ?

:ok:

[baffy boy]

Is it true that AVTUR stands for Another Verbose TURd?

[Biggus]

I have a very unimpressive certificate in the front of my first logbook which says I qualified as an 'Air Navigator' from the School of Air Navigation. I was a member of a ANC. I am not qualified as a WSO, nor do I want to do the WSO course, so what right have I to wear the WSO brevet?

Despite all this WSO this and WSOp that, if you go to the current, i.e today, ACOS Manning website and look at the register of officers postings (or whatever it is called) you will still find listing for trades such as GD(N), GD(AEO), GD(ALM), etc. Funny old thing, if you want to post an officer to instruct say ALMs at Brize you still need to make sure you send a WSO who is an ALM as opposed to a WSO who is an AEO!!

[Yeller_Gait]

OHP,

Is it true that AEOp stands for Always Eating Or Pissed ?

The most accurate yet?

In my experience it is the AEO's who have, or at least think they have, a career ahead of them that have converted to wearing the WSO brevet. Sad really considering they graduated as AEOp with an AE brevet. I think I have only seen one or two AEOps who have changed their brevet to the WSO style.

Y_G

[Pontius Navigator]

The first WSO brevet I saw was at Cranditz being worn by a Gp Capt AEO. They had only been out a few weeks.

[Trev Clark]

The first WSO brevet I saw was at Cranditz being worn by a Gp Capt AEO


It takes that sort of attitude for an AEO to reach Gp Capt:rolleyes:

[OilCan]

Biggus

it all started with storemen... err, sorry - suppliers.

and it's been downhill ever since really.:ugh:

30+ years and I've only recently found out what 'HR' staff is/are! - admin.

Obvious really.:bored:

[Pontius Navigator]

Looking through my logbook, the one that said qualified in air navigation (doesn't that say rather more than 'navigator'?) I found one of my servicing certificates signed by OC TECH Wg.

Happy days.

[Union Jack]

As has already been mentioned, we have a Tudor Crown, not a Queen's Crown

We do indeed, but (unless you are very, very old!:)) it is not the one we wear as currently used on the badges or brevets at issue in this thread, which is the St Edwards's Crown, viz:


'The instruction that changed the design of representations of the British Crown in 1952 was HD 4947, the 667th Report of the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals.

"The Queen has seen HD 4946 [previous report of the committee] on the subject of the Royal Cypher and the designs of the representation of the crown. Her Majesty's wishes with regard to the design of representations of the crown where used with the Royal Cypher or otherwise, are as follows.
The Queen wishes the St Edward's Crown to take the place of the Tudor Crown in all future designs embodying a representation of the crown.
Existing designs should not be changed unless or until it is necessary to do so. (Wherever, however, a design embodying the crown has for any reason to be changed, the St Edward's should be substituted for the Tudor Crown.)
No unnecessary expense should be incurred in making the change and where alterations in existing designs would involve such expense it should be deferred.
Her Majesty has no objection to two different designs of the crown (i.e. the existing design and the new design) being in use concurrently during the transitional period." 'Jack

[Abyadboy50]

Apparently the 'Kings Crown' / 'Queens Crown' is not as clear cut as is generally believed, and is born of coincidental timing with Queenies Coronation. In short, one way or another we are eventually in for a gentleman monarchy, unless of cause the PC world demands sexual equality and Anne gets it, which in itself is quite possible, but a man in charge does not mean that the crown must change. As has already been mentioned, we have a Tudor Crown, not a Queens Crown.

I think I’m right in saying that the crown design which changed with the change of monarch in 1952 was not as a result of a female replacing a male monarch. It was merely a convenient and natural time to change.
St Edward’s Crown (the so-called Queen’s crown) had been used by all monarchs from the restoration of Charles II. The change only came when Victoria adopted the title Empress of India in the mid-nineteenth century, and it was thought that the Tudor crown (the So-called King’ crown) displayed a more imperial appearance. With the independence of India in 1947, and the loss of this title the use of an ‘imperial’ crown was no longer appropriate. The natural time to change was with the death of George VI when all the royal cyphers, symbols etc were changing from GRVI to ERII.

[Lima Juliet]

Here are 2x links that will explain all. As for the succession of Her Majesty by the next Monarch and what they use for their Royal Cypher; that will be up to them.

Crowns & Cyphers as used on badges & medals (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/crowns.htm)

https://www.postalmuseum.org/blog/royal-cypher-appearances/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkd-O59K_6gIVBLDtCh1sdwUYEAAYASAAEgIEl_D_BwE

Plus horror of horrors, this thread uses the dreaded “B-Word”. Just for the removal of all doubt, a Brevet is a certificate and a flying badge is a badge - or sometime commonly called your wings. You should get a certificate along with your wings at your presentation ceremony, the certificate is your brevet and the badge/wings is your flying badge.

Page 103 of the following link refers: https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-52.pdf

[Lima Juliet]

This also should help, posted elsewhere by Jackonicko

From the coronation of Edward VII (1902?) until 1953, military badges, flags, etc. bore a stylised and largely fictitious representation of the Tudor Crown (a crown which does not actually exist, since All Tudor regalia was destroyed after the English Civil War!).

Edward VII, who invented state pomp and pageantry as we know it today, regulated the shape of the Crown in iconography. The new standardised shape was originally called the Tudor crown because it was supposedly modelled on one worn by Henry VII, and it came to be known as the Imperial Crown because its image was standardised throughout the Empire. It has been said that the Tudor Crown's domed shape was chosen to make it more similar to the other European imperial crowns.

In 1952, Sir George Bellew, Garter King of Arms, persuaded the Royal Mint Advisory Committee, and the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals, that it would be more appropriate if the crown surmounting the Royal Cypher was a realistic representation of the actual Crown of England, rather than being a representation of a crown that did not actually exist. There may also have been some desire to remove the Imperial Crown from iconography to reflect the end of Empire and the start of Commonwealth.

It was subsequently announced that: "The Queen wishes the St Edward's Crown to take the place of the Tudor Crown in all future designs embodying a representation of the crown."

It was decided, however, that existing designs should not be changed unless or until it was necessary to do so, but that when a design embodying the crown had to be changed, the St Edward's Crown should be substituted for the Tudor Crown. It was laid down that no unnecessary expense should be incurred in making the change and where alterations in existing designs would involve such expense they should be deferred. It was stressed that Her Majesty had no objection to two different designs of the crown (i.e. the existing design and the new design) being used concurrently.

Thus current buttons, badges, etc. (though not all squadron badges) have the St Edward's Crown.

But this is simply the actual Crown - and not some 'female' or 'Queen's Crown', and this will be the crown that the next monarch will wear at their coronation, and which will therefore almost certainly be retained.

The idea that there is a "King's Crown" and a different "Queen's Crown" may be 'urban legend' and may be widely reported but it is simply wrong! The design just happened to change with the last change of monarch, which happened to be a change from King to Queen.
​​​​​​​

[downsizer]

13 years...got to be a record of some sort.

[mabmac]

Quoting from Jackonicko (via Lima Julet): It was laid down that no unnecessary expense should be incurred in making the change and where alterations in existing designs would involve such expense they should be deferred. It was stressed that Her Majesty had no objection to two different designs of the crown (i.e. the existing design and the new design) being used concurrently.

When I joined BRNC Dartmouth in September 1973 we were issued with new stock battledress adorned with "King's" buttons. I still have it in a box, although I swear it has shrunk in storage!

[Pontius Navigator]

Mabmac, that message never got to the RAF, or if it did was forgotten. Some 8 years after the Coronation we had the Tudor crowns and very smart they were. Then a couple of years on a new button was introduced. This was an identical design but a bigger button known as the high dome. Contrary to previous rule that change only took place on replacement, we were told to change out buttons. No 1s you could do yourself, 7 buttons per tunic, but great coats was a tailors job. There was no allowance for a button change.