Simulator Circuits

[Judd]

Currently undergoing type conversion 737. Instructors insisting we fly circuits on autopilot FD, with MAP and various waypoints to depict turning points and altitudes. Looking outside discouraged as we are told MAP is more accurate. Base leg and early final done on VS mode, AT engaged and heading and MCP speed.
Having come off conventional light twins where visual circuits are required, having trouble coping with heads down automatics in the circuit. Suggestions apprecaited.

[starship]

Is a circuit not meant to be a visual procedure? Is workload not increased and lookout impaired with heads down that close in, and close to the ground?

Good luck on the course.

[john_tullamarine]

Using MAP, for most students, helps early in the piece to balance the typical limitations of the visual system on the box.

The reality, for most boxes, is that you need to do a bit of both (looking outside and playing with the screen) to make it work reasonably tidily and keep up a reasonable rate of student progress .. just an acknowledgement of the reality of the limitations.

Unless your box has very good side vision you really just can't fly it like you would pole a light twin around the circuit ..

So far as the instructor is concerned, I suggest that he is just trying to get you up to speed as quickly as he can while acknowledging the time pressures on box availability and the amount of stuff he has to cover during the endorsement sequences.

Having trouble coping at the start with the buttons .. join just about everyone else on their first fancy aircraft .. I just wonder how people cope with transitioning from a lightie straight onto the Airbus cockpit ... I don't know that I would have liked that prospect ... Apache onto F27 confused me enough at the time ..

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

Circuits in the sim are generally quite difficult. The tendency to overcorrect combined with the poor visuals make it a difficult maneuver. I recommend to fly the profile as perfectly as you can, with a few glances out now and then, to verify that you are indeed still visual with the field. (Be very accurate with tracking+timings) When turning base, stick to the profile you've been taught, 200-300 V/S works for me, and adjust the bank angle selector so you align the trend vector with finals. Don't forget to readjust your V/S (7-800) once on the PAPIs and disconnect.
I think the reason behind all this is that the 737(-800 at least) is unforgiving if you're not on profile compared to smaller aircraft. You need to be quite accurate. But, hell. Once on line, if you can fly a visual primarily looking out then there's nothing stopping you.

[Dream Land]

Is a circuit not meant to be a visual procedure? Not in the simulator, cooperate and graduate. :}

[mustafagander]

Judd, you're in a simulator. This machine can often bear very little resemblance to the real world out there, as it seems you have just found out. Your instructor would appear to be trying to help you get the sim flying sorted, so I strongly recommend listening and learning from what s/he has to say. A sim is NOT an aircraft, just a high priced video game after all is said and done. Remember whose train set it is and play with it as the owner wishes.

Good luck!

[hetfield]

Working for a large european carrier, we used to do it same way e.g. AP and FD on as long as possible doing visual circuits. But this was ten years ago. Now visual circuit means AP/FD off latest when turning base.

[Admiral346]

I agree with the 4 posts above!

Lean back and do as the instructor tells you to, it will (or won't) make sense afterwards. But the guy has experience in training students. Don't fall into the "..but I used to do this differently!" - of course you did, you were flying a different aircraft.

And to John_Tullamarine:

I did exactly that: transition from a light type straight into the A320 cockpit. It was not that big of a deal to fly it, it is very stable, and for normal ops you don't even need that many buttons. Things changed going into the abnormals, though.
I found it much tougher to transition from A340 to a CRJ, taking evolution a step backwards, from an aircraft providing you with diagnosis to one that will only show symptoms - totally different way of thinking.

[wing tip brakes]

The three most important words on a conversion. Oh I SEE.
Any time the instructors has a pearl of wisdom you don't necessarily agree with, those three words works wonders. Smooth sim session and everyone's happy.

[starship]

I fully understand the use of the MAP in the circuit and did not intend to suggest flying it looking out of the simulator - as many above have said you can not really do it.

Additional points may be the way you are taught - and it is a training and passing phase of flying that you are in so use it and as 'dream liner' so rightly says - cooperate and graduate (path of least resistance!)

The use of the MAP, combined with a 3X height (in seconds) past the threshold corrected for wind and then VS 200 - 300fpm on base is a good guideline until on visual finals.

RYR-738-JOCKEY's advice is a good starting point I think.

Good luck and enjoy.

[Judd]

Thanks for info. Conversion going OK but with several different instructors each has own opinions. After flying Chieftains am used to VOR/ILS HSI mode for ILS but am told to always use MAP mode which has much info I don't need. Don't mean to be bolshy but why force MAP mode down throats. HSI mode must be there for some reason because it has its own glide slope too..

[overstress]

Don't mean to be bolshy but why force MAP mode down throats.

No-one forcing it down your throat - you could always go back to Chieftains :}

Seriously, use the modes you are advised to by the instructor and your passage through the course will be smooth...

Re-read some of the advice offered above and keep you questions for the things that matter!

[Admiral346]

Hey Judd,

I don't approve of the guys here saying "do as the instructor says" to get through your course smoothly, what I am saying is:
Don't just carry the attitude, I've always done it this way, I want to go on like this...
There is a lot your instructor can show you, new things, that feel uncomfortable in the beginning, but make sense, when you get used to them.
As in your case, you have always flown an HSI, and call the other information superfluous (spelling?!). There is lots of information on the map mode, you might want to use. Or you are just lazy, as Iam, and all the info you need is on one screen, the PFD. The glideslope information is coming from the same source (on A320, A340, CRJ) anyways, it doesn't give you redundancy to show it twice on the screens...
Maybe something new is to be discovered by new techniques you have never thought of before.

Nic

[212man]

Don't mean to be bolshy but why force MAP mode down throats. HSI mode must be there for some reason because it has its own glide slope too..

I think the key phrase is 'situational awareness': HSI give you some SA, MAP gives you a lot more. I advocate ND with EGPWS, PFD with WX RADAR, TCAS and Lightning Sensor on both. After a while, looking at the HSI makes you feel blind!

It's a helicopter, but I think you'll agree the principle is the same:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa50/S92ctc/BruneiJune2007025.jpg

[Dream Land]

The three most important words on a conversion. Oh I SEEHow true! :ok:
As opposed to "Well back when I was flying the (fill in the blank) we used to do it this way bla bla bla" :ugh:
Remember, you are in sim world, they will teach you acceptable methods to pass your check ride, techniques that you use on the line may vary.
Good luck D.L.

[ZFT]

The limitations of simulated circular approaches are recognised by the industry.

One of (the many) recommendations the RAeS International Working Group (Flight Simulation Training Device (FSTD) Qualification Standards) will make to ICAO will be to change the FOV from 40 X 180 to 40 X 200 degrees for what are currently referred to as Level C/D devices.

The much improved picture quality in terms of brightness and resolution now available from LCoS projectors coupled with vastly improved database content (due to satellite imagery) should make for much more realistic visual circuits.

[Judd]

Mea Culpa. 212man. fantastic photos and thanks. The Chieftain experience has to be forgotten. Gotta get used to the instructor frowning if I back up MAP with ADF needles on RMI - he says to forget navaids and to trust MAP 100%. Is he right?

[212man]

Wouldn't go that far: you can see the ADF on the RMI, just to help guage the LOC intercept, but there's no right or wrong. Bottom line: don't get lost or fly into the ground!!

[Dream Land]

Unless I am misunderstanding something, you are training in a simulator to do a circling maneuverer, I'm assuming you will have to do this for your check ride, in this context, YES, use the MAP as your instructor recommends (on the check ride glance out the window from time to time).
Is this how we operate out on the line, NO, but you are in sim world.:ugh:

[AirRabbit]

The limitations of simulated circular approaches are recognised by the industry.
One of (the many) recommendations the RAeS International Working Group (Flight Simulation Training Device (FSTD) Qualification Standards) will make to ICAO will be to change the FOV from 40 X 180 to 40 X 200 degrees for what are currently referred to as Level C/D devices.
The much improved picture quality in terms of brightness and resolution now available from LCoS projectors coupled with vastly improved database content (due to satellite imagery) should make for much more realistic visual circuits.
ZFT - my compliments, sir! As a participant in this particular effort, I can say from first hand knowledge, not many would recognize this on-going effort - even though it is participated in by a reasonably good cross-section of airlines from around the world, training providers, simulator and FTD manufacturers, airplane manufacturers, regulators, pilot groups, and other interests. It is a significant effort that will have long term effects on the training aspects of airline operations.
Again, thanks for not only recognizing what is going on, but for taking the time to advise others.

[cool_pilot]

Indeed,when it comes to visual circuits for the purpose of the course that we did on the 735 we were using raw data flying in the sim which was a pain when it comes lining on finals from base as the visuals were not great especially that u can only see straight ahead and not from every visual angle u might think off as some of the sims these dayz have.

What I find the hardest is doing it on single engine , so I was wondering if anyone got any sort for ideas that I could use which might help me from goin-around every time a I line up on final ?:}

[ZFT]

AirRabbit,

Thank you.

I wish you every success in this endeavour. Harmonisation with regs that reflect training needs as opposed to custom and practice and further reflect 21st century technologies will be to everyone’s benefit.

Have a good meeting, this week?

[Centaurus]

so I was wondering if anyone got any sort for ideas that I could use which might help me from goin-around every time a I line up on final ?
First of all make sure the size of the protected area that the circling MDA in your region is safe. For the 737 it is 4.2 miles in Australia. It may be only 1.7 miles in USA. In the simulator with its visual limitations (you cannot look past your shoulder) then the best way is to fly downwind and start the base turn jusy inside the limit of 4.2 miles. Don't descend until you have intercepted the ILS glide path on final or intercepting the on-slope signal of the PAPI/VASIS on final.

. If the simulator instructor has inserted a visibility of less than 8 kms then he is not playing fair, because of the limitations on the design of the visual portion of the windscreen. If he allows you to fly on instruments using the map mode and other aids like waypoints, then he should equally allow you to go downwind on the clocks to the limit of the protected MDA area. He cannot have it both ways. In real life the circling approach is done as a fully visual manoeuvre with the airport environment in sight at all times. In the simulator the design limitations means the circling approach is a combination visual and IMC with IMC most of the time. Try turning on the standby ADI ILS. This gives you a much earlier glide slope indication on base leg than the standard glass cockpit ILS.

Either way, once you elect to descend below the published MDA at any time while circling you are entirely responsoble for your own obstacle clearance with all the legal responsibility that it entails. Think about that carefully.