R44 Glass Cockpit!

[206Fan]

Looks sweet!!

http://www.verticalmag.com/control/news/templates/?a=5789&z=5

[matt_as350]

I've seen this system in person, in action, and sweet is a understatement! Very nice system!

[Chukkablade]

Dear God. That actually looks like something from this century. Not back from when Nixon was bugging phones:D

[Brilliant Stuff]

I also think it's a fantastic piece of kit.

Now when are they going to stick one into a R22?

[Hughesy]

Pretty sweet look system....suppose better to spend money on fancy instruments rather then the blades :E

Couldnt resist! Nice looking though.

Hughesy :ok:

[TiPwEiGhT]

All that money ploughed into getting it fitted, certified and the gear... and they put it in an Astro!

TiP:}

[bayou06]

Lipstick on a pig.

[rotorspin]

Second Hand Astro £120k
Annual Servicing £20k
Insurance £6k
Sagem Glass Cockpit Fit Out £20k

Flying around the countryside pretending to be a real helicopter pilot (because you now have a glass cockpit)...... priceless

(still have to make the noise of a turbine to fool the pax as you fly)


I'll run for cover.....

[HeliCraig]

Seeing as you're running for cover I will try and get a predictable quick shot in....

Did you train on turbines?:cool:

[HillerBee]

Total overkill!

We're talking about a R-44, VFR flying. It enhances terrain awareness, but distracts the pilot, so might induce more incidents/accidents even.

I like my R-44 the way it is.

[topendtorque]

(still have to make the noise of a turbine to fool the pax as you fly)



Hmmm. I'm with Hiller bee, one should be with one's eyes outside, not looking at the images that are freely available on sim machines. I'll bet it doesn't show up the invisible power lines, or does it?

Side sound effects, for 20G I'd reckon that a few options should come as standard. Side sound tracks for a start.

My preference would be a muted turbocharged bell 47, modulating in and out with collective movement.

Some may prefer the reliable DC6B sound track, interspersed with a bit of Yothu Yindu as one wound along the Katherine Gorge or the Grand Canyon, with their mouth gaping touro's on board.

Then others may prefer to be apocaclypsing now and or then, who knows???:cool:

[Bravo73]

Lipstick on a pig.

Quote of the day. :ok:

[vont]

Installing a Sagem system on a R-44 is a complete waste of money. That particular system goes $100,000-NOT including installation costs. I know this, because I almost installed one this year in my 206B3-I backed off because of the return investment would be nill.... I opted for the Garmin 530 WAAS and 430 WAAS as backup.

Two cents....

[Vertical Mag]

Actually, the new cockpit is priced at $65,000 (USD) installed, not $100,000.

[vont]

Rotorcraft support located at KVNY. Received bid early 2007.

Price for unit $90,000-Problably gone up by now-2008 prices. Installation approximately $15,000.

The $65,000 figure in my opinion is misleading.

If you perform a factory install much cheaper. To rip out your current panel. A real pain in the rear end.

Now-Unless there is a major difference between a 206 panel and a R-44 panel.

I stand by my statement.

[bellsux]

I fly with the Sagem screens and I think they are worth it..
super reliable.
cheap spares.
looks modern and professional.
approaching limits the bars change colour to warn.
wind speed and direction arrow on screen
dalt + accurate oat on screen
if you can afford it do it, there will be a return on the investment on resale also you wont be changing intermittent, inaccurate, sticky, illegible, noisy, leaking guages that clutter up the dash any more.
this is the way of aviation in the future so if you or your boss can afford it... why not?

[RabidNuts]

This stuff has been sprouting up in welded wings for quite some time and apart from the reduced mechanical complexity I can't see the point. It invites head inside the cockpit and along with some serious "push-button-itis" is an invitation to disaster as far as attention diversion goes. Electro mechanicals are still required as a backup, so why don't they just stick with these and enjoy the outside view otherwise you may as well paint the inside of your plexi-glass or go fly FS X!!

I've had my rant... rN

[Brilliant Stuff]

I agree that the glass cockpit can make you want to constantly oggle at the screens and yes this is a danger but the benefit from finding all your important information in one spot weighs heavy.

It took me a bit of time to stop looking inside but when the proverbial hits the fan I am glad to have such precise information available at an blink of an eye.

The Rad alt alone IMHO is safer compared to the analogue one because it's easier to read which in my current job is very important.

[Scissorlink]

wind speed and direction arrow on screenummmm........arn't you supposed to learn that in your training ??



SL

[kiilik]

mhmh!!! Will they add extra battery to feed the screens:confused: before start up, or screens will ligth after start up? Does anyone know?

[bellsux]

sometimes i foolishly think i can post on pprune adding something that might be useful or constructive to others without having some tosser coming in with some half thought out reply...

so you must have also learnt to navigate as well in your training but do you fly with a gps equipped machine?? all the zk ones i have flown had them fitted..

[Oogle]

Who said that you cannot have a glass cockpit in a R44?

Sorry, I didn't know that glass cockpits was the domain only for turbine pilots.

OK for the turbine guys to have all the bells and whistles. No, they don't have their eyes inside the cockpit looking at all the fancy colours, do they?

If someone has enough money to put a glass cockpit in a R44, good on them I say.

Why do they do it?

Because they can!

[Flyin'ematlast]

Then I assume you'll bust a blood vessel at the thought of a Rotorway machine with a glass cockpit?

www.rotorway.com/misc_assets/A600specs.pdf (http://www.rotorway.com/misc_assets/A600specs.pdf) :eek:

Ian.

[vont]

I spoke with Rotorcraft Support today-Yes, the price has come down to $60,000 to $65,000. The original version was more geared to fixed wing IFR flying... The re-vamped rotor version has a few options deleted. I do not know what they are...

All in all, the lower price is worth the investment.

IMHO.

[widgeon]

Sagem Avionics - News (http://www.sagemavionics.com/Press%20and%20Events/CurrentNews.aspx?pressId=44)

R44 Grand Eh , Will AW like this , could cause brand confusion.

[krypton_john]

Frank will not be amused.

[Runway101]

Wondering if there is anybody crazy enough to install the Glass Cockpit + Chelton HeliSAS and Autopilot into his R44.

[gyrotyro]

"Now when are they going to stick one into a R22?"

They have it's called a "Cabri !"

[Skywagon180Pilot]

You can only wish to fly it. The Sagem Avionics Glass is a real pleasure to fly. You have no idea what you are missing.

[Skywagon180Pilot]

Pilots will be induced to have accidents? I don't think so! The Sagem Avionics Glass Displays in the R44 make it even safer to fly. Everything is properly located where it only requires a brief scan to decipher what is transpiring. Turbine operators gain the most due to engine trend monitoring, but this is also available on the R44 installation.

[500e]

Not quite glass but fully loaded
Richard’s World (http://richard.sears.net/) :suspect:

[Brilliant Stuff]

I have no Problems with Richard on why he did what he did to his R44, and most of it is simple common sense, but one thing slightly worries me and that is in an accident you will have your bones broken by the Garmin on the cyclic as well as the Garmin over his shins.

The Fuel gauge gismo with the USB port though is IMHO just fantastic.

How come we can not have something similar on our £3.8 million machine?????????:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Skywagon180Pilot]

You feel that the price is misleading. The out the door price for the Sagem Glass, is correct, not misleading. $65k and a short down time. The STC is complete and aircraft are flying. This is the same as LAPD helo's are flying with. also the SDPD and Riverside County Sheriff's helicopters are all flying with it. When you see the S-64 Skycranes flying over the fires in So.Cal., they use Sagem for their engines and stuff. There are many helicopters worldwide that are going with the Sagem Glass. The reason the price is so low for the R44 is that it is a pretty simple system to build up. The price nearly doubles for some other installations.

[ivakontrol]

How does it cope with sun glare? If my Skymap unit is anything to go by I wouldn't see much of the display in certain sunny conditions. :confused:

[birrddog]

Wondering if there is anybody crazy enough to install the Glass Cockpit + Chelton HeliSAS and Autopilot into his R44.Runway101, why would you ask if anyone would be crazy enough to do this?

Unless this was tongue in cheek I am confused.

I don't see why our fixed wing brethren get to do that in light singles and we can't do it in light helicopters.

I can think of a dozen reasons why we should want to promote that type of technological advancement, even to the point of single pilot IFR (not referring to IMC).

This is not a R44 vs. 206 or other bashing topic; it is specifically address to help the workload and increase situational awareness and safety for pilots who have to fly in busy airspace.

I have found terminal boundaries and frequencies in the Garmin units a great help, why not Wx and TCAS / terrain maps as well for light helicopters?

With regards to the autopilot piece, there are several scenarios where this could be helpful during a flight, particularly when punching holes through the sky or needing to concentrate on navigational tasks, or even if you just need to have to scratch your :mad: without risking your life :ok:

Traditionally this type of technology has been out of limits because of cost and weight penalties, but in this electronic age of cheaper, more reliable and smaller / light weight gear, one would hope this makes it's way down those of us not flying 2 pilot IMC machines.

[Runway101]

Runway101, why would you ask if anyone would be crazy enough to do this?

Excuse my choice of wording. I meant that in a positive way with a smile on my face. It was definitely not meant as sarcastic comment.

It costs $65k + installation + maybe another $50k for the HeliSAS + installation. So the first person who is going to install both into the same ship is definitely a little bit crazy, cost wise.

I personally would love to have the HeliSAS, but that's a complete other story.

Never flew with a glass cockpit, so I can't comment on that. Considering the price tag. It may be a cheap glass cockpit, but it is still almost 20% of the price of a new R44, so I am asking myself what do I get for that extra buck in comparison to a standard R44 panel with GPS and maybe added engine monitoring like Richard built into his R44 above. If it wouldn't be about the price, I'd probably also go with the Sagem system and not the old equipment... flew in the left seat of a glass EC120 once and it wasn't that bad.

[birrddog]

Runway101, understood; that's why we need more 'crazy' people to go and do that so the manufacturers have incentive to build more and bring the price down :ok:

[EN48]

Not an R44, but I am doing my part to bring innovation to light helicopters. This is one of the first Enstrom 480B's certified with the Chelton EFIS/FMS and other "advanced" (for a light helo) avionics. Sure, its overkill - so what? - life is short! :ok:



http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn264/sharkattack2347/CIMG0310edit.jpg

[birrddog]

EN48, could you not get any more MFD's in there? ;)

Could you elaborate on your layout, and how you came to that configuration?

Thanks in advance
Birrddog

[EN48]

EN48, could you not get any more MFD's in there? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Could you elaborate on your layout, and how you came to that configuration?



Yes - there is room for several more on seat rail mounts similar to the Garmin 696. However, enough is enough.:E

Layout is mostly dictated by placement of the Chelton equipment, which are certified in the positions shown. The lay out of the lower stack mostly follows conventional practice, with audio panel at top, two nav/coms (actually 1 nav/com and 1 com) and xponder. The location of the Garmin GMX 200 at the bottom was driven by two considerations: due to the sloping panel in the pedestal, this unit could not be mounted as high as one might like. Also, since this is used more for info incidental to flight, I decided that having the audio panel and coms closer to the line of sight might be better. The Garmin 696 is attached via a RAM mount to an existing seat rail, along with the Globalstar phone. I didnt want to use any kind of permanent mount (requiring drilling of holes, and possibly FAA 337 approval) and this pretty much dictated the seat rail mounting. This can be easily removed in less than 30 sec. All other equipment is mounted in the standard Enstrom recommended locations.

I have been very pleased with this seup. Everything works as advertised. At the time this configuration was spec'd, The Chelton system did not support NEXRAD wx, so that drove the addition of the Garmin GMX200. I would have preferred a more integrated suite with one manuf supplying all or most of the bits, but ther was no such option then (and still) certified.

Recently completed Instrument-Helicopter rating in this ship and it all worked quite nicely. The check pilot insisted on flying a number of approaches himself, with me providing a bit of dual on the avionics. Took a lot of the pressure off!

[R44-pilot]

A search on the forums found nothing, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but has this not been discussed here yet??

R44 Glass panel.

YouTube - Aero-TV Heads Aloft With Sagem's R44 Glass Panel Retrofit (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmh_W4nByDU)

eBay Motors: Robinson R44 EFIS (item 250192569310 end time Feb-18-09 21:16:29 PST) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Robinson-R44-EFIS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1301Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a1 2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem 250192569310QQitemZ250192569310QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPart sQ5fGear#ebayphotohosting)

The possibilites for this thing seem endless! Never flown a glass cockpit, but must be pricey transition on to a rotory wing aircraft with one.

Imagine this in the R66! Turbine time and Glass Panel training all wrapped up into one hopfully cheapish rating.

Would love a go on this.

[heli-mad]

There was a thread a while ago about it. Looks nice but the debate is "is it to much for a 44??" If you have the money for a private ship go for it.

It doesnt add up for a company or a school though:}

Cheers

[R44-pilot]

Yeah, your probably right, $65k plus fitting is pricey. But matched with the R66 I think it could be another story. Commercial training is my thinking, not some ppl learning to fly....

[heli-mad]

:ok: R66 i think would look nice with one of them.......who is gonna tell Frank that it has to a standard item to make it at least a bit different than a normal R44????:eek:

H-M

[R44-pilot]

Quite agree with you there.

It does need something to make it different from the R44, yes it has a turbine and a extra seat, but obviously a turbine engine is nothing new in Helicopters and a 4 seat turbine is abit overkill and pointless as the R44 does it already.

But whack a glass cockpit in and you've got something there imo, obviously the EC120 has some nice goodies but at what price.

A good priced 5 place turbine helicopter with a nice modern glass cockpit would be fantastic and could seriously damage the competion.

The fact that alot of students will be trying the R66 and could hot start it is quite a worry, well i'd worry if I owned one! Why not make it as student proof as possible?

Glass cockpits are becoming more popular these days even some LSA's are getting them so to bring out a whole "new" helicopter without seems a bit daft imo.

Bought in bulk by Robinson, fitted by there own engineers to save a bit of money and it doesnt HAVE to up the price a rediculous amount.

Obviously up to them on what price to add for such a thing, but could be done, even as a factory optional extra.

But at the very least to saftey precautions put in place for students. (Engine wise)

[206Fan]

Yea i started a thread on it in 2007. Looks excellent alrite!

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/297741-r44-glass-cockpit.html




Threads now merged

Senior Pilot
Rotorheads Moderator

[Rotorhead412]

I do agree with ye, the notion that franky should include a glass cockpit into the R66, to actually make it LOOK like a turbine at least!!!

But in regards to the glass cockpit 'protecting' the heli... Wont do a thing, all it is remember is a interface to improve the ergonomics of the system, to reduce pilot workload, if your looking to protect your turbine, your going to need a FADEC, flick the switch and it runs it up to idle for ya, improves fuel efficieny etc...

Either that, or dont let them do anythin (solo) until you (the instructor) is certain that there not going to arse it up!!!

Really and truely, is there any 100% fool proof 'aircraft'...!? :cool:

[birrddog]

One would wonder why they would not put in a FADEC.

Can any of the 'experts' elucidate on the costs/challenges of FADEC vs non-FADEC controlled engines?

Does a FADEC need to be designed as part of the engine, or could it be added on externally?