Are Flight deck visits actually ILLEGAL in the UK?

[Contacttower]

A few posters in the thread relating to Pablo Mason have stated that flight deck visits are actually illegal in this country, is this the case? Or is it just that Department of Transport guidelines state that passengers should not be allowed into the cockpit? And if they are illegal could Pablo have actually been arrested for letting someone in?

[Hand Solo]

Does it really matter? Visitors are not coming in and thats the end of the story.

[411A]

Same for the USA, no visitors.

[lowbypass]

Is this a standard international regulation banning/restricting flightdeck visits or it so far only applies to individual respective administrations...and also how about if the visitor produces a valid ICAO, FAA, JAA flying license?, would he still be denied a visit (CRM states "use all available recources") if the "visitor" is a rated pilot, would he still be denied by LAW?...A THIRD EYE COULD BE HANDY...:ouch:

[flyinthesky]

I have given up on the main thread relating to this topic in rumours, simply because as usual it has been taken over by a number of people with limited knowledge of the legal aspects but huge enthusiasm for the perceived AUTHORITY of the captain. Virtually none of the posters on the main thread know anything about the details surrounding the case.

But to try and answer the main point on this thread. The Department for Transport here in the UK ban all in-flight visits to the FD. This covers all UK registered a/c and all a/c entering the UK. The only allowable people are those with an operational need and correct ID. Just holding a valid ATPL etc does not show an operational need. So basically that means that jumpseating is out.

What it doesn't rule out is a visit either pre or post flight before the door is locked. OK its not the same but most crews will more than welcome you.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Actually flyinthe sky, foreign registered aircraft are only required to have the door locked whilst in UK airspace. The flightdeck jumpseat, for example, may be occupied by a non crew member if the regulations of the state of registry permit it.

Something of a minefield really.

[Dropline]

flyinthesky

Do you know what counts as "an operational need" and "correct id"? Obviously line checks, CAA inspectors etc but who else might be allowed?

Pre 9/11 I worked for a UK charter airline and used my staff travel concessions regularly. Almost every time I flew I was lucky enough to be allowed a flight deck jump seat, even if there were loads of empty seats in the cabin. At the time it was just a great perk of the job and while I enjoyed every minute of it, I wasn't that interested in the operational side of things.

Now I am working as a dispatcher for a handling agent I have a lot more interest in what goes on in the flightdeck and would love to able to do the same again, not just because it's fun, but to see things from a more operational perspective. I think I would learn a lot.

Do you think it would be possible for me to arrange to do a flight in the cockpit, assuming I went through all the correct channels and obtained proper authorisation?

Obviously I would first need to ask a Captain to agree to the idea in principle. (I know that in this ridiculous day and age they can't authorise such a trip any more, but I wouldn't dream of trying to arrange it without asking him or her first!) Once I have my Captain, who else would I need to ask? I assume the Captain would also need permission from above?

It's getting complicated already! Would I be wasting my time even trying or is there a way this could be done? (preferably without anyone getting sacked!!!)

[G-HALE]

Every time I fly on an airliner this approach always works for me! Mabey im just lucky :)
When you are boarding the airliner and you get to the door, say to the steward that you would like to speak with the captain. When you say this the flight attendant cannot refuse because for all he s/he knows you could be the captains son or wife!!!!! so what happens for me is im told to sit and i will be brought into the captain once the other passengers sit down and the plane is fairly calm. I am then brought in to the cockpit and left to chat with the pilots, say you like aircraft, want to be an airline pilot blah blah blah whatever and then say, "any chance i can sit in the jumseat as it will be good experience for my aviation career"! 9 times out of 10 you have the captain buttered up so much that he wont refuse you!!! And that has always worked for me, so go on, give it a go :ok:

[mutt]

G-HALE....

Have you actually succeeded with that approach in the UK? Personally i would be extremely surprised if you got close to the cockpit...

It might work in Europe, but not the UK.

Mutt

[flyinthesky]

Slim Shady; Yup I was a little less than clear. It's the door that must remain locked whilst in UK airspace. For foreign reg a/c the rules governing who is on the flight deck are upto the licensing state.

Dropline; I guess you must have an airside ID. We still have properly organised famil flights on occasion. I have had ATC etc on the FD. The operational need can be satisfied due to education. You will need full airside ID and a good relationship with the chief pilot of the airline concerned. It should be possible though.

G-HALE; Not sure which country you are talking about but post 9/11 your chance of staying in the FD post engine start is nil if it is a UK/US reg a/c. Not that we wouldn't love to have visitors, it's just an aversion to ending up like Pablo! Casual visitors are a simple no-no these days.

[Bealzebub]

Is this a standard international regulation banning/restricting flightdeck visits or it so far only applies to individual respective administrations...and also how about if the visitor produces a valid ICAO, FAA, JAA flying license?, would he still be denied a visit (CRM states "use all available recources") if the "visitor" is a rated pilot, would he still be denied by LAW?...A THIRD EYE COULD BE HANDY...

This rule only applies in certain jurisdictions including the USA, UK and many others, but not all. If the would be visitor produces a "valid" ICAO pilots licence it would be phoney, because ICAO do not issue pilots licences. As for a JAA, FAA or any other state issued pilots licence it makes absolutely no difference in the UK, unless that pilot is employed by the company and has an operational reason to be on the flightdeck. CRM is irrelevant as an arguement for the simple reason that you are not part of the Crew. The existing crew should already have at least 4 eyes. The fact that you have a pilots license entitles you be on the flightdeck of an airline you do not fly for, no more than it does the grandmother sitting in seat 6C. In other words not at all.

Every time I fly on an airliner this approach always works for me! Mabey im just lucky
When you are boarding the airliner and you get to the door, say to the steward that you would like to speak with the captain. When you say this the flight attendant cannot refuse because for all he s/he knows you could be the captains son or wife!!!!! so what happens for me is im told to sit and i will be brought into the captain once the other passengers sit down and the plane is fairly calm. I am then brought in to the cockpit and left to chat with the pilots, say you like aircraft, want to be an airline pilot blah blah blah whatever and then say, "any chance i can sit in the jumseat as it will be good experience for my aviation career"! 9 times out of 10 you have the captain buttered up so much that he wont refuse you!!! And that has always worked for me, so go on, give it a go

Not in the UK it wouldn't. Your assertion that the flight attendant "cannot refuse" is simply wrong. If I am told that a passenger wishes to speak to me ( and believe me I would know if it was my wife or son) the response would be: "What do they want to speak to me about ?" This to filter out any time wasting nonsense regarding such matters as their allocation of seat, or some matter that is better dealt with by another member of the crew. This actually is CRM by definition. If somebody wants to see the flightdeck prior to doors closed and time permits, then that might well be allowed. The suggestion that after everybody has sat down is a good time for a chat, will cause a smile on most pilots faces, as that is the normally the busiest time for us. Rushing to make a departure slot, final security checks, signing off paperwork, PA to the passengers, pre start checklists.
The suggestion that we are "buttered up" by some spotty youth with a desire to be an airline pilot is "mistaken". In the UK and the USA and many other countries you cannot stay in the flightdeck even though once we may have accommodated such a request. Sorry !

[forget]

G-HALE the other passengers sit down and the plane is fairly calm.

Plane? Plane?? Dead give away. Man's on another planet. :p

[Capt Claret]

Here in Orstaylya, no ASIC (Avn Security Identity Card) no access. On top of that, most operators only allow company or customer staff with an ASIC access, still at the Captain's discretion of course.

Even the poor old military ATCOs can't jump seat on a famil 'cause they don't have an ASIC, they have a military ID. :ugh:

[BigBoeing]

Im an ATCO, were one of the few that are allowed into cockpits these days, still has to be officially organised, can;t just turn up. But thank god we are, the benefits for us are huge to see things from the other side and nit pick with pilots etc etc

[Green Guard]

IMHO the ONLY big problem these days has been the "dablya" media produced PUBLIC scare of so caled computer or crash course simulator terrorist pilots.

Why?

Not because they can fly, but because millions BELIEVE someone ACTUALY can FLY and find any "target" building after "training" for few hours in sim or a lap-top. (Pls refere to that JAL incident 10, 20 years ago)

Now I fly for one South West Europe Airline. And recently we were returning from Tel Aviv. Half way through I got a request for a cockpit visit. Granted ! The girl came in and was very happy and confused too. Why? Why do you allow cockpit visits ? This is free and happy country with very long history and if you do not feel safe we will not allow any more cockpit visits and if so you can go now. No, no, no she said, I want to stay for a while, but I do not understand, as I work for Airport security in Tel Aviv, and we have completely different picture.

Well in the end, what matters today, depends ONLY, WHO makes the pictures...Right ?

[lowbypass]

...to BEAZLEBUB

...i meant ICAO RECOGNIZED license
...i know there are four eyes, i meant a 3rd PAIR...:cool:
...THE WORLD WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN, even CHILDREN are a threat since 911

[Propellerhead]

That'll be plane as in airPLANE, as in Boeing airPLANE company. :ok:

[gunit]

As Jeremy Clarkson once said "In the free world you can still sit in the FD"
I think he was travelling on Thai airlines.