Cpl(h)ir

[Trident Helis]

Having completed the JAA CPL(H) writtens in March 2005 and the flight course in May of the same year; it is now time to contemplate the IR. Is the 36-Month validity period for the exams relevant as per the ATPL writtens?
The CAA have stated ( although I think incorrectly ) that to start an IR(H) course you must have completed the IR(H) exams. Having read LASORS and JAR-FCL I appear to have completed the relevant exams minus the IFR Comms. Who is correct? Can anyone shine any light on this subject as flight training schools also appear confused? Can you do a CPL(H)IR without doing the ATPL exams? Can't PPL's do an IR?
Has anyone out there for completed a CPL(H) with IR?

[VeeAny]

I think that the CAA are correct, the ATPLs being at a different level and with a couple of extra subjects thrown in, cover you for the IR(H) knowledge.

JAR FCL 2.470 shows the table of exams to be passed for which level you have chosen.

The CPL(H) exams will only ever allow you to be awarded a CPL(H) and no IR(H) until you take the 7 IR(H) exams. This is why for some people the Dragon / Atlantic option is best if they never want to fly IMC. The others are generally best advised to go along another route Bristol, Cabair etc and do the ATPLS, thus getting all the exams out of the way at the beginning, but starting the clock from the Month of the last pass.

I have a CPL(H)/IR and will probably never hold an ATPL(H) as I have no multi crew time. I did however complete the ATPL(H) writtens prior to getting an IR.

JAR FCL does use the word applicant, so you can probably start the flying training without having passed all the exams (sensible or not is another matter), you just can't apply for the rating.

I am not an IRI so may be talking b*ll*cks but it seems pretty clear cut to me.

Gary

[Trident Helis]

Hi Norunway,

Unfortunately I have completed the CPL Exams and not the ATPL; This is where the confusion arises!! I do not see however any reason why I cannot complete the IR Course with my CPL!!

[Trident Helis]

Thanks VeeAny,

There seems to be confusion all around on this matter. The CPL was designed for persons such as I who wished to never operate multi-crew helis on the North Sea flying aircraft in excess of 5700Kg's. The CPL was never intended just to be a VFR License but restrict the size of helicopter to fly. This has always been my interpretation. If someone wishes to pursue an IR ( whether it be on a CPL / ATPL or PPL Ticket ) shouldn't this be encouraged and not discouraged as appears to be the current situation?

[Bravo73]

Trident,

If you have passed the CPL(H) exams only, then you need to pass the IR (or ATPL) exams before you can sit the IRT. The exam titles might be similar but the content is very different!

HTH

[Trident Helis]

Bravo73,

LASORS & JAR FCL2 refer to the 7-exams but do not state whether they are ATPL or CPL Level..... this further deepens the confusion; and it has to be said that the Feds are confused also!!

JAR FCL 2.470 Para c. makes no mention of ATPL or CPL Standard as does LASORS J1.4.

[Bravo73]

The IR exams are, in essence, a little below ATPL level (if you can actually draw that parallel.) The CPL exams are basically the VFR elements of the ATPL syllabii. The IR exams are just about the rest (without the MRJT ie 737 sections.)

I'm afraid that I don't have a LASORS reference on me because I am currently sitting in a hotel lobby, waiting for my pax!

[Bravo73]

PS Please believe me - I've had to sit both the ATPL AND IR exams. :(

[Trident Helis]

Bravo73,

I do believe you however the references ( unsurprisingly ) are not clear!!

[g-mady]

Just to confuse the issue what happens when,

You have passed all ATPL exams and within the 36months only achieve a CPL (not an IR), clearly the IR is our but does your licence then remain soley a CPL until doing the exams again or are you "in-valid" all togther because the exams are intended for the issue of an ATPL (CPL+IR)

MADY

[helimutt]

This old chestnut again!! I am awaiting a response from CAA on similar subject. First wrote to them 21st September. Then sent again 2nd Oct. Still waiting for a reply!! That's more than 10 days for a response.

I have CPL(H), but the exam credits ran out after more than the allowed 36 months, so did the 7 IR theory exams and then the IR. Now hold a CPL(H)(IR), with multi-eng time and multi-crew but I can't get an answer if I can upgrade to ATPL(H) once I meet the night requirements. I'm not doing the exams again! PS I did 13 CPL(H) exams and 1 resit.

21 exams is enough for anyone I think. It would be nice if the CAA even acknowledged my enquiry.

[callie dog]

helimutt, why worry I am sure being a co-pilot forever would be great fun!!!
:eek:

[Flingingwings]

HM,
Could be worse............
I did the ATPL's, but don't fly prescribed multi-crew :{

Guess I'll always have a CPL/IR :p
Not that holding a full ATP will ever be an issue where I work :E

FW

Ps If sitting them again is that scary, you'll have to hang tight till I can find you a suitable vacancy down here :eek:

[helimutt]

Ok, i'm sitting waiting Flingingwings. 12 months to go!;)

Callie Dog, There's no way I want to remain Co-pilot forever! :ugh:

Okay, I need some experience first but hey, some people are destined to always be co-pilots, or at least should be.:E

[rotorrookie]

This is all because the JAR-FCL 2 when it first came out it was a copy/paste of JAR-FCL 1. Theese time requirements and multi or single pilot time works fine in the world of plank drivers NOT ours.:ugh:
It is just question of time, for the wizzards in Brussel(or where ever they are) to pull their heads out of each other putt and rewrite this crap :*

[Whirlygig]

This is all because the JAR-FCL 2 when it first came out it was a copy/paste of JAR-FCL 1

Not strictly true. In the olden days, CPL theory + IR theory + CPL/IR skills tests and hours experience = ATPL(H) which was different to fixed wing where in order to have an ATPL(A), ATPL theory had to be obtained. This has changed with the latest amendments.

Cheers

Whirls

[ScrumpyLuvver]

kk As an FAA CPL(H) CFII IR with 1000+hrs, would coming back to the UK and doing the JAA IR (£26000!!! :ugh: ) constitute a full JAA CPL(H) IR conversion or would I still have to do a seperate CPL conversion?

SL

[helimutt]

you'd need to do the JAR CPL /atpl exams and the CPL course. You will get a reduction in hours requirement for the IR I think. Some people on here did an FAA IR and converted it to JAR IR in 15 hours I think. You would need to do the type conversion first though on to say a 355.

[Flingingwings]

Hey HM,

No worries. In 12 months time I'll see if you can move South.
Always happy to let you be MY co-pilot :E

FW
Running away laughing

[Bravo73]

Some people on here did an FAA IR and converted it to JAR IR in 15 hours I think.

SL,

Although the 15hrs is the minimum conversion time, many take more than this to convert.

I suggest that you contact the JAA IR training providers for the past history of FAA conversion students.

And yes, the CPL(H) conversion course is a different course to the IR(H) course. However, if you were feeling brave, you could probably try to do them at the same time.

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Thanks guys.. Gulp.. It was purely hypothetical as I am trying to identify the best route for my training to give me the best chance of flying for a living based on my budget.. There really aren't any shortcuts are there?? I don't mean in experience.. I mean in pounds sterling.... :} HAI here I come...

[Bravo73]

There really aren't any shortcuts are there??

Not really, nope. I'm afraid.

If it's not too personal, do you mind me asking what your total budget is? Then we can tell you at this stage if it's realistic or not. PM me if you would prefer.

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Bravo73

I am not shy about it mate.. I am selling my house and based on my estimated return after all debts settled etc we should have about £50k + a few pennies... That is a pessimistic figure..

SL

[manfromuncle]

You will need more than that if you want an JAA IR and pay for living expenses when you are training. It ALWAYS take more money to train that what schools tell you.

[Bravo73]

As it stands, that will probably only get you a CPL(H). (Even if you go to HAI, once you factor in the cost of living for 18 months etc.)

As you've probably already picked up on other threads, a CPL(H) on it's own is next to useless.

You're probably looking at about £60-70k if you budget for hour building and an FI rating. A little bit more if you want to go down the higher risk (offshore) IR route. If you want to stay onshore and fly SPIFR somewhere down the line, the bill is much nearer to £100k. :{

Once you factor in ALL of the costs, training in the US doesn't actually seem to save that much. And what you save in pounds sterling, you lose out in contacts and reputation back in the UK.


Best of luck either way.

[helimutt]

Hey FW, i'd be so far ahead of you, you have trouble keeping up, even sat next to me!!!
Live and learn boyo!!

PS, flown many ILS's for real recently? LMFAO:):hmm::{

[chcoffshore]

Scrumpy,

Do your JAA Cpl(h) and your IR exams then approach the North Sea company's if this is the route for you! I know that CHC have been sponsoring guys for their IR and not just ex mil.

The market is boomng come on up!:ok:

[Bravo73]

Do your JAA Cpl(h) and your IR exams then approach the North Sea company's

Ahhh, good ol' trusty 'Option A'... :rolleyes:

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Thank you all for your advice both on the thread and via PM.

Bravo73,

Let us not discount option 'A' because I will sure as hell be trying it, just like every now and then I play the lottery.. Difference is I think Option A has much better odds than winning the lottery? :ugh:Not by much though..

I will be doing this to find work within the industry so, I will take every chance, every opportunity and do every dirty job to the best of my ability until I achieve my goal.

This is going to be a challenge but that is not why I am doing it.. I want to fly, pure and simple. I enjoy flying so much that I would like to do it for a living. I only wish I had the common sense to have done it 20 years ago.

Anyway, I have a Physics and Maths book to bury my head in as unfortunately, even with £5m+ budgets, I never needed algebraic equations and have therefore forgotten them... :uhoh: So Oak technologies and I have a date for the next many many weekends..

SL..

[Flingingwings]

Oh HM you are just SO mean :{:{:{
Never knew you could be so bitter :p

Strangely given the last few days I can answer your question 'Yes' :cool:

Guess I'll just have to make do with varied routes, newer aircraft and more money :E

Think it's time we called a truce :ok: (you know I'm just pulling yer leg)
Fly safe buddy

FW

[helimutt]

You want to fly, pure and simple. I hope so cos that's all offshore is! LOL.
Make sure you only get what you wish for.:rolleyes::hmm:


FW, we have too much fun ripping it out of previous employers to fall out over a 'few shiny new a/c' (you bas***d) :{:ok:

Anyway, i'm off to work. Foggy offshore I wonder? Oh joy!

[Torquetalk]

Bravo 73

"I suggest that you contact the JAA IR training providers for the past history of FAA conversion students"

"[Training in the US] ... you lose out in contacts and reputation back in the UK"

Wonder what those JAR IR training providers might say? Well, if they are British IR training providers, no doubt the frequency with which FAA (& other ICAO) IR conversions prove to be well short of the standard & need to fly extra hours. How ofen have I heard this of late? But only from people training in the UK and not from other European JAR IR providers. Know plenty of people who have done FAA IR conversions and who have done it in minimums; in other European countries. But, of course, their standards will be lower...

Similarly, why should training in the US mean a poorer reputation in the UK? There are plenty of badly and well-trained folk both sides of the pond. Why do so many British pilots think they are the standard-setters?

When I came to the UK from the States, I kept hearing much the same and how US-trained pilots couldn't navigate or were hopeless at RT. And what have I found: loads of UK-trained pilots who are crap at RT and can't navigate without a GPS.

The snobbery is tedious and weakly founded.

TT

[Bravo73]

Torquetalk,

Just telling it how it is, I'm afraid.

I can give you a couple of recent examples but I am hesitant to because I don't really want the individuals concerned to read this. But one FAA IR holder required 36 hours of training pre-test (ie more than the required 15hrs!) and another FAA CFII who couldn't even track an ADF needle.

I didn't say that all FAA IR holders require more than the 15hrs but from speaking to the IR instructors, it would certainly seem that a lot do. Remember that we are talking about budgeting for training here - I was just warning SL to not just budget for the 15hrs.

Out of interest, have you sat the UK JAA IRT yet?


And you've got the wrong end of the stick re my reference to 'reputation'. I wasn't implying that all US trained pilots have a bad reputation. I was saying that because nobody in the UK knows who you are personally, you won't have any reputation at all. And when it comes to getting that first job, this can be critical. Your prospective new boss is going to call whoever you did your training with - because the chances are that he knows him!

[Torquetalk]

Your ADF example is fair enough: were they rusty or weak (ADF is lttle used in the States) or clueless? Some courses (Billund in Denmark concentrate on giving students additional input in this as it is a recognised weak area. But 36 hours for someone who holds an IR? So much for standardisation: how different can a hold; ILS; tracking etc be?

In answer to your question, no I haven't done the UK IRT. Know several people who have though; and of those, both passes and failures: (conversions and full). And the question remains: why do these conversions seem to take more hours in the UK than other countries (from the limited sample I have to call on)?

Point taken re. meaning of reputation.


TT

[Bravo73]

TT,

You've managed to drift this thread some way from it's roots. Why not start another or just add to an existing FAA vs JAA IR thread?

But to quickly answer your questions:

Your ADF example is fair enough: were they rusty or weak (ADF is lttle used in the States) or clueless?

Pretty clueless (from the accounts that I heard.) Especially considering that they were an instrument instructor.



how different can a hold; ILS; tracking etc be?

Different enough, it would seem. Remember that you are doing all of this in a completely different environment. Sorry for stating the obvious, but a twin turbine helicopter is a very different beast to an R22/S300. This can be even trickier if you have only completed your first twin TR a matter of weeks beforehand.



why do these conversions seem to take more hours in the UK than other countries (from the limited sample I have to call on)?

No idea, I'm afraid. Maybe that's a question for the respective examining authorities?



In answer to your question, no I haven't done the UK IRT.

Good luck for when you do. Then maybe you can give us your assessment of the differences between the respective courses and tests.



Point taken re. meaning of reputation.

Still think that I'm a tedious, weakly-founded snob? :rolleyes:

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Erm... Thank you all.. let's keep it civil please peeps.. After all we all do (want to do) the same thing.... Some better some worse.. Were in life is that not true?? Missinterpretatioin was easy in your previous mail Bravo73 so I am certain TT felt suitably abashed hence the vieled (spelling?) apology.. :}

K GOOD NEWS!!! My house just got valued for way more than I thought so less scrimping and more contingency money (providing the arse does not fall out of our economy in the next 6 months...)

I figure if I train with HAI then nearly all potential employers will know to phone Patrick and get the low down.. In fact I will pay for the call.. Plus, I would also figure my IR instructor in the UK will have a fair idea if I can fly, take instruction and evidence good decision making and Tea making??

Thank you for all of your advice on this matter, especially the PM's and big thanks to TH for creating the platform for me to get so much feedback.. Not your intention I am sure but as I have said many times, I am getting into this from scratch so I will grab every opportunity that is available to me..:ok:

Cheers all

SL:D

[Torquetalk]

Bravo 73

My comments were not personally directed at you, only at a kind of attitude that is quite common, which you appeared to be giving voice to. Give a little ground, British pilots do think their PPLs, CPLs and IRs are superior to the FAA equivelants. FAA qualified pilots don't appear to be so opinionated (or interested?) on this theme. I was merely saying that this generic opinion is tedious and often ill-founded.

ScrumpyLuvver is right in both respects: Your comments re. reputation were open to interpretation; I interpreted wrongly; and my last remark was a veiled apology for that.

I fail to see, though, how flying a more stable machine IR (a Bell for example) can be harder than flying an R22 or 300. Your point about machine familiarity accepted, a Bell is a much easier aircraft to fly than either an R22 or 300. As to why JAR IR candidates often end up doing skills tests in aircraft with which they have little familiarity, well, that's another kettle of ball games eh?

As to doing the UK IRT - probably won't ;)


Yours in sport.


TT

Good luck SL

[helimutt]

OK, here is what I got back from the CAA today. This helps clear things up for me. :ok:

I can confirm as per JAR-FCL 2.285 (amendment 3) the holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of an ATPL(H).

The above is also noted in JAR–FCL 2.050 Crediting of flight time and theoretical knowledge (amendment 6)

(11) The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) gained under previous amendments of JAR FCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H) and IR(H).


Safe flying!!

[Bravo73]

And just to remind all newbies that we are now under JAR-FCL2 Amendment 6 - so the above no longer applies. Confusing, innit?

[VeeAny]

A quote from the AIC which supposedly cleared this up The CAA is therefore introducing a number of changes to the requirements of JAR-FCL 2, Amendment 3 with effect from
19 July 2007. These changes are contained in JAR-FCL 2, Amendment 6 (a corrigendum to Amendment 5) which was
published on 1 February 2007

Further in the AIC it says which bits they've actually adopted.

Clear as mud now ?

I think, but its opinion only that we are officialy Amdt 3 but with these bits of 6 included.

Gary

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Why don't they just clearly write a new damned amendment and adopt the entire amendment instead of writing amendments to admendmants??!!!

Am I being naive here?

SL..

[chcoffshore]

Scrumpy,

Welcome to aviation and your new buddies the CAA:rolleyes:

[ScrumpyLuvver]

So just to clarify now with an example as having read these, I am feeling a bit slow..

I complete my JAA CPL(H) and go on to do my JAA IR..
I then; for examples sake, get a job as a CoJo offshore...
I some how manage to get the PIC hours and finally comply with all of the prereqs to get my ATPL....
At this point, do I now have to do all of those exams I had taken for IR again?:eek:

SL

PS.. Sorry if I sound like I am slow on the take up here...

[Bravo73]

SL,

If you'd taken the ATPL exams in the first place, no.

But if you had taken the CPL exams, followed by the IR exams then, yes.


So the moral of the story is: take the ATPL exams then make sure that you get your IR within 36 months of your last exam.


Still clear as mud, isn't it? :ok:

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Bravo73.. That is clear.. for the CAA.. Quite refereshing really... Thanks.:D

K, so to clarify, I can take my ATPL exams in place of my CPL exams? :ooh:

I will get in touch HAI and find out if they do that? Do the 2 exam sets compliment each other? Are there any similarities or is ATPL level leagues above CPL level?

Thought I had the whole plan off pat now but nope.. lol..

SL

[Bravo73]

K, so to clarify, I can take my ATPL exams in place of my CPL exams? :ooh:

Yep.


I will get in touch HAI and find out if they do that? Do the 2 exam sets compliment each other? Are there any similarities or is ATPL level leagues above CPL level?


I've got a feeling that HAI only do the ATPL exams. (Most of 'us' took the ATPLs anyway.)

The ATPL isn't 'leagues above' the CPLs. The content matter for certain subjects is just slightly more 'global' ie global climatology, global navigation. This is because the ATPL syllabus is essentially aimed at wannabe B737 pilots; the CPL syllabus is aimed at SEP people and the IR syllabus is more aimed at MEP pilots. Now, whether or not any of this has any relevance to us helicopter pilots, well that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish (which has already been debated ad infinitum.) Like it or not, we've got to live with it...

But if you ever intend to be the captain of a multi-pilot public transport aircraft (ie a North Sea captain) then you'll need to pass the ATPL exams at some point.

[helimutt]

not just 19 seats!!

[3top]

Hi all,

.....just getting started with all this JAR stuff.

Question: What does LASORS stand for??
Tried Wiki, google, etc. But no joy!

I have a list with all the requirements for licenses, exames, etc.
It says LASORS 2007 on top, but no rundwon WHAT this stands for...

Thanx!

3top:cool:

[manfromuncle]

LICENSING, ADMINISTRATION and STANDARDISATION OPERATING REQUIREMENTS and SAFETY

or...

"Let Authorities Strive to Overrule Right-thinking and Sense"

- maybe we should have a competition?:)

[3top]

Thanx MFU!!



or...

"Let Authorities Strive to Overrule Right-thinking and Sense"

- maybe we should have a competition?

I think you started that one!!

3top :)

[Flingingwings]

Oh well then..........
Licensing At Seriously Over-priced Rates Scheme

Or

Lets All Subsidise Our Restaurant Secretly

:E