Underweight for R22 [Archive]

G_STRING

8th Oct 2007, 15:54

Hi
Doing my PPL(H) at the moment, and have done a bit of solo.

My trouble is, I'm only just over 8 stone (112 lb), so have to add extra weight to the helicopter (R22). Even with the extra weight, (added under my seat), I still feel uncomfortable controlling the helicopter due to it feeling so light, and with the cylic almost at arms length. This is still the case with full fuel.

Flying duel, I don't have any trouble, it feels heavier, and more 'in balance'

Could I also put weights under the empty passenger seat to help?

If anybody has any suggestions, pleaseeee could you let me know?!

VfrpilotPB/2

8th Oct 2007, 16:06

I had the opposite, I weighed in at a modest 220lbs and most days needed to ensure W&B were able to be observed,

My suggestion eat more grub bulk up and then you wont have the problem, thing is though you;ll then struggle to find clothes to fit, better stay as you are and place extra weight under the Pax seat inside cubby hole, that way you wont need as much on your side.

Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb:D

Ioan

8th Oct 2007, 16:09

I can't see why not. I believe it's max 50 lbs in each baggage compartment to a max 240 lbs total for seat and baggage compartment each side... best idea is prob to do a W&B for you and a lump of weight; make sure you'll be OK both on taking off with full fuel and landing with almost none.

I know (being fairly light myself) it takes a lot of getting used to flying solo after you've done a lot with an instructor. I took a 22 up the other day after recently doing over 35 hours duel with an instructor / examiner, and it still felt weird! Quite nice having an R22 with more power than you need for once though! :)

chopperguy

8th Oct 2007, 16:11

G String,
I am an instructor myself and I ran a few times with very light students into the same problem that you have.
You can certainly fill the underseat storage on both sides to capacity if you want, that will certainly help. Also I have heard that people did put weight on the passenger seat secured by seatbelt or other means of course ( I would personally not do that).
:ok::ok::ok:

Barndweller

8th Oct 2007, 16:22

The school i learned at had specially designed sand bags with webbing straps on them to accept the seat belt. These were secured to the empty left hand seat where there was no risk of them affecting the controls.

tvpilot

8th Oct 2007, 16:28

By adding more weight under you or the left seat this will move the GC forward, the helicopter will sit less tail low, more level. i.e romoving the the "cylic almost at arms length." problem.

By going with full fuel when your solo the GC will move aft because the fuel tank or tanks are in simple terms towards the back of the aircraft. So this is not a good idea if you very light and solo and may end up putting you out of CG limits.

I would recomend adding more wight under the front seats. But you best bet is to talk through & work out and plot the different weight & balance situations with your instructor.

Good luck with the rest of you training :)

international hog driver

8th Oct 2007, 18:39

I had the same problem when I was flying helicopters 15 years ago.... (not anymore however:*) I had a weighted sandbag that went underseat of a robbie and sometimes I used another in the other seat for ballance.

For the Jet & Longranger I used divers weights under the seat cushion (I know, I know... dumb move looking back at it). Even with the weights the Longranger with full fuel and no pax got very close to the aft c of g and required a lot "LOT" of foward cyclic to remain neutral.

After that I dont think I have flown without another poler or pax up the front. Just remember that the seats are designed to collapse in the event of a high ROD impact so if you have to put anything under the seat.................

make sure it's blunt :E

Gordy

8th Oct 2007, 18:55

Also remember that the less weight you have up front..the less tail rotor authority you have. This is especially important at high DA's. Sand bags are best up front on the floor.

I have never had issue being out of CG, I do have to watch the fire crews though when doing shuttles and back haul...they have a tendency to throw all back-haul in the baggage compartment and nothing internal....could be embarrassing with no people in the back.

Whirlybird

8th Oct 2007, 19:15

By going with full fuel when your solo the GC will move aft because the fuel tank or tanks are in simple terms towards the back of the aircraft. So this is not a good idea if you very light and solo and may end up putting you out of CG limits.

This is precisely the reason that the minimum solo weight for the R22 is 130lbs with only the main tank fiulled, but 135lbs with full fuel. I have such a hard time getting some students to understand this!

However, even though I'm above the minimum weight with full fuel, I'm pretty close to it, and I find the R22 flies uncomfortably nose high when I have full fuel. So yes, it's quite OK to put stuff under either or both seats. I believe in having useful ballast, so I usually have a very full flight bag with everything I could conceivably need, plus spare oil. But anything will do really. And if you're going to pick someone up later, take a large plastic container of water; then you can empty the water when you pick up the passenger.

We lightweight pilots who've been doing this for a while have got it all worked out. :ok:

Ioan

8th Oct 2007, 19:25

And if you're going to pick someone up later, take a large plastic container of water; then you can empty the water when you pick up the passenger.

Whirlybird - nice idea! 22s I don't have a problem with, but 206 solo with full fuel I need ballast and it's still pretty nose high. Don't know why I hadn't thought of that before!

BHenderson

8th Oct 2007, 19:53

R44 solo is no fun either, but think about how much sloping ground practice you're getting!

manfromuncle

8th Oct 2007, 20:11

I am very light and I can never do decent landings/setdowns when solo in the R44, seems to touch on the rear of the skids first. All my landings feel very shoddy.

helimutt

8th Oct 2007, 21:18

Just a shame a 'semi experienced' pilot from 'down south' didnt think about c of g and w&b in the jet ranger she used to fly, until I pointed it out about minimum pilot weight. Live and learn.

Great idea about the water, Whirlybird.

I once saw a small woman start up and reposition an R22 and on lift, the stinger brushed the ground. We all ducked for that one.

VeeAny

8th Oct 2007, 21:21

Not 22 current so maybe I should get back in my box, but its been a long day.

Whilst a solution needs to be found for the 'get some weight up front problem' some of the the things that people put under the seats to make the CG come into limits are not exactly frangible, and whilst there is no stipulation on this in the flight manual, I seem to recall the Robinson safety course discourages things that would hurt if they hit your a*se in a hurry from being stored under the seats. It prevents them from collapsing in the event of an accident. (Never done the course, so this is hearsay).

I used to get students to take big plastic bottles of water with them, which would probably meet both criteria.

GS

heliduck

8th Oct 2007, 22:00

Robinson used to supply a foam cushion to put behind your back in pre-adjustable pedal machines. Try using one of these or a similar cushion behind your back as it will move your weight forward (therefore having a larger moment to act on) as well as position you closer to the cyclic. Before start-up make sure you check that you can still get full aft cyclic without interference with the belly (or any other protrusions you may have)!!

Hughesy

9th Oct 2007, 01:55

Beer!! Drink more beer!!
Weight gain will happen....well it will after CPL :E

bvgs

9th Oct 2007, 07:35

I would put plastic containers of water under your seats, but remember you have a limit of 50lbs per seat. Also don't put full fuel in the machine, whirly is quite right in stating the main tank only will help. I WOULD NOT put anything on the floor as it could slide around and the weight is meant to be taken on the seats. You could easily end up out of CG if it slipped to far forward.

With regard to what you can put under your seat VeeAny is quite right with regard to it being collapsable. I've just completed the Robinson Safety Course and the first thing Tim Tucker did was to check under his seat to see what would go up his **** in the event of a hard landing. He also showed a video of an R22 that had a hard landing. The Heli looked ok apart from the splayed skids.....the seats looked perfect! Both occupents died from internal injuries as a result of the landing and on examination the seats were full of paperwork and survival equipment which simply didn't compress. The opposite of this happened at Newcastle a few years ago when an R22 crashed and the guy walked away, Heli looked totally wrecked, so beware!

I

bvgs

9th Oct 2007, 07:37

I would put plastic containers of water under your seats, but remember you have a limit of 50lbs per seat. Also don't put full fuel in the machine, whirly is quite right in stating the main tank only will help. I WOULD NOT put anything on the floor as it could slide around and the weight is meant to be taken on the seats. You could easily end up out of CG if it slipped to far forward:=.

With regard to what you can put under your seat VeeAny is quite right with regard to it being collapsable. I've just completed the Robinson Safety Course and the first thing Tim Tucker did was to check under his seat to see what would go up his **** in the event of a hard landing. He also showed a video of an R22 that had a hard landing. The Heli looked ok apart from the splayed skids.....the seats looked perfect! Both occupents died from internal injuries as a result of the landing and on examination the seats were full of paperwork and survival equipment which simply didn't compress. The opposite of this happened at Newcastle a few years ago when an R22 crashed and the guy walked away, Heli looked totally wrecked, so beware!
I fly a 44 and I'm no lightweight and I can tell you flying solo when you are low on fuel makes for a very twitchy helicopter. Have fun and safe flying.

bladewashout

9th Oct 2007, 07:53

... but lets not forget the good bits about R22 Beta II solo for light pilots, which is my normal mode of flight at about 5lb over the authorised minimum, and you quickly get used to having the cyclic forward.

Stunning rates of climb and (for me anyway!) 90kts straight and level at 19" on a cool day, all the crap that will end up in your bum in an accident can go in the other seat, greater range, and going into confined areas you can have over 7" MAP to spare. Max power take-offs: no problem!

Just take your time, you'll soon learn to love being light and solo.

The only problem is that when you take passengers they all feel like fat b*stards and your lovely 22 feels like a slug!

BW

helimutt

9th Oct 2007, 08:17

Water balloons! They'd squish in an accident and also help put out a fire!! :E

There is an R44 flying around near me with pop out floats. Unfortunately, the gas bottle is under the left hand seat, and as an instructor, I was never happy about flying it. Imagine getting that up ya butt!!:(

Ioan

9th Oct 2007, 09:18

The only problem is that when you take passengers they all feel like fat b*stards and your lovely 22 feels like a slug!

Haha bladewashout; elegantly put and so true :D

G_STRING

9th Oct 2007, 10:41

Thanks to all for the replies, didn't think I'd get so many!

Bladewashout, sounds great when you put it like that, but must admit I do struggle with my weight, (and only being 5'3" tall).

Whirlybird, love the idea of the water container, I'm going to give that one a try, one under each seat.

I fully take on board that the fuel is aft of the C&G, and that the more of it (uncountered by weight in the front), the more the machine will fly nose up. However, what bvgs said about the R44 being 'twitchy' with not much fuel, so is the R22. This is a sort of 'catch 22' situation for me. If I have too much it's nose high, if I take less, the heli is definately more lively.

I guess I'll have to learn to live with it, (being the type of person who is naturally skinny, and can't put weight on anyway)

Thanks for all your inputs.

ariel

9th Oct 2007, 10:53

G_STRNG; been there, done that, still suffering!

I'm also what is termed 'underweight' for the R22, (and like yourself, not very tall) - every time I fly it, I take a specially constructed bag of weights with me. (Although will be having second thoughts after having the collapsable seat scenario re-iterated in this thread - weights and bum...ugh).

When I started, I use to use a cushion, (as mentioned in this thread), but couldn't get on with that at all - the rear cyclic movements didn't feel right, and I felt as if I had less control.

Besides, it was getting silly; everytime I wanted to fly solo, it felt like I was taking half the contents of either the car or the office with me! Once, I had to run back to the airport because I'd forgotten to remove the weights, and the next person to fly was a rather large guy...

Whirly - love the idea of the water containers, how come you've never mentioned that one to me before? (Then again, can't remember if I've told you of my underweight problems flying the R22).

G_STRING, it does get better as you get more practice, but keep it up. As mentioned on another thread, helicopter flying is a perishable skill, which will quickly deteriorate if you don't use it. I found this out after finally getting back solo in the R22 a few days ago, and being surprised by how I 'jumped' into the air, (even though I was expecting it).

Did settle down and enjoyed it though.

Have fun
ariel

thekite

9th Oct 2007, 12:25

Of course there is another aspect and this with the weight all the other way.
I was asked to fly with a giant geologist with his giant old fashioned camcorder when I had only landed to refuel anyway. :confused:
So: Fat bastard plus fat toy, minimum fuel. Result: stick coming back back back as the collective came up.
There came a moment when I had to say "Sorry, I need some fuel, to balance us up."
Geos are men of science, they understand. Plus he already knew that he was a fat bastard. No science needed.
Aren't you glad you fly a helicopter? We can make a life or death decision at zero airspeed. Aeroplane foxe only get the bad news at the boundary fence. :uhoh:
Plenty of other helis have this problem too: H300s, JetRangers come to mind.
But I like the water ballast idea, when the Cof G is too far aft. Australia is a dry country. Just be sure that you carry in plastic (frangible) containers.
thekite

500e

9th Oct 2007, 14:03

The Containers want to be soft, as they need to break on impact as water does not give, and even though the posterior will not get the sharp object, the water has to get away or the compressibility will be badly compromised.:ooh:

3top

9th Oct 2007, 18:07

Hi all,

just for reference, have some 5K+ hrs onthe R-44 and 700+ on the R-22 (about 10K total...)
It will depend on where you fly. Some countries will allow you to fly with jerry-cans, other not.

Where I am a lot of students ( and myself too) used the needed extra balance to extend the range.
If on a solo, a good (speak fume-tight) 5-gal jerry can would extend the range quite a bit. On the return a water fill did the trick.
2 2.5 gal also do it.

The trick is not to put the liquid container (whatever you carry) under the seat, but in the food well in front of the left seat.
Do your w+b and you see, there is no chance to run out of cg with 5 gal of water there (assuming you really need the extra weight...).

(There is no issue with w+b in either Robinson as long as you stay within max seat weight limits. I frequently get asked about max-seat weight, rest fuel - situation. Supposedly the cg goes out of limits when the fuel gets used up.
The mistake comes when people do not re-calculate the new total weight after flying of the fuel weight.
Turn it as you want, no out of CG for either R, if you stick to the max seat weights and total weights...)

I am about 165 lb and still use the jerry can in the food well, because you immediately get a perfectly level helo to play with.
If I am solo in a R-44 I do the same, just to get more level into the game.
If you cannot use fuel: There are collapsable 5 gal-watercontainers.
Pick-up your pax, take a sip and poor out the rest, collapse, store, done.

Again, if you are in Europe, stay away from the fuel in the can.
You are in a airport starved country, most likely you get away with some fuel in there, just don't ask to have it filled at the fuel truck....
(..and DON'T use the collapsable thing for anything but water!)

A short strong strap will secure the can to the seatbelt. Generally it will not move at all anyway...

3top
"wild thing" :cool:

puntosaurus

9th Oct 2007, 19:25

Beg to differ there 3Top. The 44 (well the clipper II is my experience) is easy to get out of CG limits with pilot and 3 pax. If the heavies are in the front, then you exceed forward CG limits when close to MAUW.

Creates a nasty catch 22 situation if you've been over polite or less than thorough on the full and free check. Nose low and restricted rearward cyclic.

Easy to solve by putting the lightest pax in the front, but you need to be aware (ie. have a simple spreadsheet model) to do that.

3top

9th Oct 2007, 19:58

Puntosaurus,

I hardly belief this.
However, it is not called an EXACT W&B if you have to work with optimistic weight estimates.
Never had a problem with this early in my R-44 days, but last year I had to put people on the scale occasionally and show them, that even before breakfast and buttn***d they never make their dreamed up weight.

At one point I started to believe that I was loosing power (like in "getting worn out"). So we loaded the R-44 with 5-gal jerry cans filled with water to a little over max GW(about 10 gallons or 80 lbs over). Performed flawlessly and right on spec. in a high hover and held power for as long as you wished - SL, 32ºC.
SO watch it really carefully with the "wish for" versus true numbers...

3top

PS: If the helo is rigged and balanced according to the manual it should be impossible to get it out of CG, when observing limits.

helimutt

9th Oct 2007, 20:00

Personally I wouldn't tell anyone I flew an a/c over max gross on purpose! :ugh:

3top

9th Oct 2007, 20:07

Didn't fly it - just hovered :)
Was a calculation mistake by the student I trusted with it.
The required powersetting was a little on the high side, so just for kicks I re-did the calcs, well - it was already done....
Would you guess what the mistake was? :)
3top :cool:

PS: I was lucky that there weren't just any more jerry cans or it would have been 20 gal over....
Never trust other peoples calcs....