Video footage of TAP A310 in extreme low flying turn at airshow [Archive]

Flightwatch

17th Sep 2007, 21:29

Many moons ago (early 80s), before BA changed it's policy on air show appearances (barring Concorde, of course!) I was peripherally involved in displaying a BAC 1-11 at a couple of shows in the north of England, Blackpool springs to mind.

Not only did we have pax on board but they were charged for the privilege - 20 pounds I believe. - paid for the fuel.

The display had to be approved in advance by the CAA and a ceiling was set on the lowest altitude to be flown, 500 or 1,000 feet I think.

The pax loved it of course, they were all enthusiasts and we carried a third pilot who was continually on the PA briefing them on what was going to happen. The cabin crew were in the cabin for the whole display facing the pax and my abiding memory was of them being on their knees before the pull up which no doubt was no more than 1.5g!

Happy Days.

slip and turn

17th Sep 2007, 21:37

Completamente idiota. Feito ele mesmo realismo que ele fizera?

Krueger

17th Sep 2007, 21:42

Completamente idiota. Feito ele mesmo realismo que ele fizera?

Did you use Babelfish to write this or are you high?:E

Check Six Krueger...

slip and turn

17th Sep 2007, 21:52

Babelfish? Well kinda ... www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml (http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml) ... I was lost for my own words ... did the ones I found aptly describe or not aptly describe the event in question? :\

GearDown&Locked

17th Sep 2007, 22:10

What a joke some people are...

This is not your average B52 doing tight turns, nor 707 doing rolls ...this plane is as exciting as a washing machine with wings; so to make it interesting enough for the crowd they have shown what this plane does when provoked, but only enough to make the crowd go wow. No big deal.

One thing's for sure, that A310 has better maintenance than most top notch flag carriers, and without a doubt, a crew that could teach you all experts in airmanship a thing or two. Oh and they can afford the fuel for that too. And what about their outstanding safety record?

btw, they still have free meals on board, for pax and crew :E

Mungo Man

17th Sep 2007, 22:16

I was just gob-smacked seeing this footage. I don't care about camera angles and sloping ground - he was very low and I'm surprised so many posters are justifying it. Whenever I've seen civilian airliners do low slow fly pasts at Farnborough they have been considerably higher than this.

Hand Solo

17th Sep 2007, 22:17

One thing's for sure, that A310 has better maintenance than most top notch flag carriers, and without a doubt, a crew that could teach you all experts in airmanship a thing or two. Oh and they can afford the fuel for that too. And what about their outstanding safety record?

Is that the same TAP that landed an A340 on the taxiway at GRU recently?

Krueger

17th Sep 2007, 22:18

Babelfish? Well kinda ... www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml ... I was lost for my own words ... did the ones I found aptly describe or not aptly describe the event in question?

Well, nope...

And to clarify some ignorant minds, this flight had no pax and was fully trained in the sim.:ugh:

Check Six Krueger...

Krueger

17th Sep 2007, 22:28

Is that the same TAP that landed an A340 on the taxiway at GRU recently?

Yes, it is. And did a perfect landing after crossing the Atlantic with four engines running at the destination airport, not with three and not getting to the destination.:E
By the way, the topic was...?

Check Six Krueger...

slip and turn

17th Sep 2007, 22:30

Fully trained for what? Being an idiot? Cartwheel recovery?? I like airshows but had I been at that one I wouldn't have been excited - I'd have just sworn at the jerk.

Hand Solo

17th Sep 2007, 22:46

Yes, it is. And did a perfect landing after crossing the Atlantic with four engines running at the destination airport, not with three and not getting to the destination. By the way, the topic was...?

TAP Air Portugal was the topic. Would you care to enlighten us at to what relevance your comments have to the debate? I hardly think a manufacturer and certifying authority approved (and since unchanged) procedure ranks alongside landing a heavy jet on a taxiway.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that I wouldn't classify any landing on a taxiway as 'perfect'.

rubik101

17th Sep 2007, 23:01

Never mind the airline or the aircraft, the pilot flying is a complete and utter prat of the first order. He should be stripped of his license and shown the door with a large boot up his fundament. Dick Wit doesn't describe him or her.

Krueger

17th Sep 2007, 23:24

TAP Air Portugal was the topic.
Heh! Wrong answer! The topic is about the maneuver, not the airline.

Would you care to enlighten us at to what relevance your comments have to the debate?

If you would care to read my posts, you would know that the maneuvers done at the airshow were planned, trained and without pax.

I hardly think a manufacturer and certifying authority approved (and since unchanged) procedure ranks alongside landing a heavy jet on a taxiway.

As well as crossing the pond with one engine shut down after flying over several suitable airports...:ok:

Oh Yeah, I forgot to mention that your posts were very enlightening and relevant to this topic.:E

nojwod

17th Sep 2007, 23:58

In the world of flying there are two sorts of pilots: those who fly by the book and pursue a set of defined numbers to get the job done, and those for whom flying becomes an extension of their own selves and actually 'fly'. I'd be willing to wager my next month's pay that the pilot who was flying this manoeuvre was of the latter type. Bob Hoover is probably the best known example of the true 'flyer' but throughout the world there are many thousands more who instinctively 'feel' the aircraft and what it's doing, even if it is a large twin engined airliner.
The wowsers who villify real pilots are generally button pushers and number chasers who have never experienced the sheer joy of allowing an aircraft to become part of their extended selves. To them an aircraft is just a machine. I personally know three or four pilots with whom I would gladly get into that plane and perform that exact same manoeuvre, and several dozen RTP bus drivers who I trust to fly down an ILS but not a real 'flying' manoeuvre such as this.

con-pilot

18th Sep 2007, 00:06

Well said nojwod, could not agree more. :ok:

M.Mouse

18th Sep 2007, 00:11

Some years ago I had a very good friend in the USA who owned and displayed many fine aircraft. He was an exceptional pilot. He always impressed people with his fine judgement and handling abilities in many types.

What wasn't so impressive was carrying out a fast flypast of another of his, slower, aeroplanes being piloted by somebody else. He flew so close that his tail flew through the propeller arc of the slower aircraft before diving almost vertically into the ground and killing himself and his passenger. The other aircraft managed to land safely.

He was an exceptional pilot with fine judgement. Sadly he is but one of many who believed in their own infallability.

I am sure the Airbus display pilot in the video also has exceptional piloting skills.

Keg

18th Sep 2007, 00:13

...so to make it interesting enough for the crowd they have shown what this plane does when provoked, but only enough to make the crowd go wow.

The crowd went 'wow' because they thought they were about to watch the thing auger in! :rolleyes:

Even Bob Hoover's displays leave a lot more margin for error than this. Don't give me the crap about visible horizons and photographic errors and so on, it was very, very close to the ground.

RNZAF does similar things in their 757 and I've never been too comfortable watching that either!

JanetFlight

18th Sep 2007, 02:55

This Thread is the Perfect Reflection of all those who come here and "HAVE NO WINGS" at their Hearts...:ugh:
Call me names, insult me, do what you want...but this is THE TRUE AVIATION SPIRIT!!!
FIVE STARS;COLOSSAL DISPLAY....:D:D:D
PS: And yes....Im Portuguese too...And by the way....Check it;) »»»

http://www.linhadafrente.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=100719#100719

:ok::ok::ok:

grumpyoldgeek

18th Sep 2007, 03:47

ACMS

18th Sep 2007, 03:51

There is only 1 word that comes to mind watching that video

IDIOT

Fart Master

18th Sep 2007, 05:11

Absolute lunatic, there is no way the PF could intentionally fly the wingtip that close to the ground:=:=

Old pilots and bold pilots etc...........

IDIOT:mad:

boardpig

18th Sep 2007, 05:23

I'm probably wrong here but the turn he makes doesn't seem very balanced from what I can see. It looks like he forgot to use the rudder (like many seem to these days), and it simply rolling the wings, rather lazy for low speed, low alt manovering
Looks impressive though but I'd wager he wasn't fully aware of the wing tip distance. If he does that manouver often enough to "know it" dunt say too much for his employer.

nojwod

18th Sep 2007, 05:27

This relatively safe climbing turn that was quite benign in still air close to the ground and was only increased in angle once a positive climb was established cannot be compared to a cowboy who took an aircraft beyond its aerodynamic envelope. If you can't see the difference between the two circumstances then neither I nor anyone else will ever be able to help you see beyond your blind prejudices.

I wish to stress that I do not deny that there was an element of risk in the performance. There is an element of risk in everything to do with aviation, my point has been that although this LOOKED like a risky manoeuvre, in the hands of a good pilot, in the conditions prevailing on the day, the risk was relatively minimal. There will always be wowsers who demand that ALL risk be removed from all activities. There are also those amongst us (and I am one) who are prepared to face a small amount of risk in my life to ensure I actually LIVE MY LIFE.

I would prefer it if wowsers and stick-in-the-muds, who think an airshow should be about aircraft flying down the flightline at 500 minimums wings level until they exit the airshow boundaries, stay at home and leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the feeling of being alive.

Wet Lettuce

18th Sep 2007, 05:31

And to clarify some ignorant minds, this flight had no pax and was fully trained in the sim.

That puts my mind at rest. Fully trained in the sim, how many times did the sim auger in before they got it right?

Challenger and Columbia were fully trained in the sim too I think.

Did the pilots train for a simulated bird strike? Even a very small bird? What they did was obviously safe (they did it then went to the pub after) but left ZERO margin for error or equipment failure.

Sorry that stunt was dangerous, a low level fly past gear down, then a straight climb then a bank would be a good display of a civil airliner.

Hey they could even have packed the plane with tabloid journalists and announced "ladies and gentlemen, this is what a go-around feels like"

Ignition Override

18th Sep 2007, 05:39

This da^^^^%d hotel computer is programmed to block any YouTube videos.

Although the A-310 is quite different than the A-320, the A-320 which crashed into the woods at an airshow with people in the cabin was flown by a factory pilot. Maybe the throttles were not in the TOGA detent before the 320 hit the trees?

Many pilots tend to trust their experience to help keep them out of trouble, or at least use it as a general guide.

JanetFlight

18th Sep 2007, 05:57

:ugh::ugh::ugh:So....in some brilliant :mad: minds opinions this very Captain should be fired simply because he did a SUPERB&COLOSSAL Display of its own Plane on an AirShow,without any single Passenger, and wich was precisely that the main goal and objective...:confused::confused::confused:
So, taking and following that vast array of magnificient opinions, every time we see such a landing like this with 200, 300, or 400 souls on board, we would loose for sure a nice couple of JetDrivers »»»
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdMZ6e6CVdA
Am i Missing somethin'here...????:ugh::uhoh::confused:
PS: Im a Portuguese Pilot Too..I Know VERY well that Aerodrome&Runway, and like Pprune Member "Five Green" said, we have some Downslopes there and some of the images&vids cannot precisely show what some are trying to say...:zzz:
But it was a Hell of a AWESOME DISPLAY...YYEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!:ok::ok::ok:;)

Denti

18th Sep 2007, 06:17

There are several more vids about that lowpass.

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=ly3Y8SZvK1U
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=H073hZzIU9g
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEUwAnUK7Y (this time gear up and unspectacular)
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEUwAnUK7Y
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=vbF_kUGYCSc (shows both passes)
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=0RxYSYliCFY

(shamelessly stolen from pilots.de)

Wet Lettuce

18th Sep 2007, 06:21

JanetFlight, I don't get your point.

You posted a landing at Kai Tak, NORMAL landing for that airport.

Why do you equate that with a planned airshow stunt?

Can you explain to me ANY circumstance where a commercial airliner would need to bank so hard so close to the ground.

You say "awsome display" I beg to differ. Most people never saw that "SUPERB&COLOSSAL Display"

Notice the photographers running? That "SUPERB&COLOSSAL Display " was so low down that most of the spectators would not have seen it!!!!

EDIT, and this is important....

Watch all the videos and you will see spectators were on both sides of the runway.

:rolleyes:

Flap62

18th Sep 2007, 06:38

I'd like to bet that the closest most of the posters of the "awesome" variety here have come to the edge of the performance envelope was when the batteries on their airband radio ran out!

Clowns like this have no place inside an aircraft, let alone a cockpit. Have any of you considered the implications of a failure (birdstrike anyone!) of the left engine as he rolls? - un-recoverable!!

Pittsle

18th Sep 2007, 07:24

Someone compared this IDIOT (well said, ACMS), who survived only by pure luck, with Bob Hoover.

This is a great insult for Bob Hoover, who (among other things) is THE professional airshow pilot who always respects his / aircraft limits and still shows a spectacular performance.

This is, why he still is alive.

TopBunk

18th Sep 2007, 07:26

OK, so who are the so-called professional pilots who think it was safe - come on, own up then we can treat you as the numbnuts you really are when you next post on a subject?

I understand that in the UK, a display pilot will not get a licence to display below 50 feet (15 metres) - I doubt if the wingtip was much more than 2 to 3 metres above the ground in this manoeuvre - bear in mind that display pilots will normally be displaying aircraft with wingspans under 50 feet, whereas the A310 is what, 60 metres?

Go on - dare you....

flying brain

18th Sep 2007, 07:41

Will meet with FP at TAP later this week - let's see what he thinks.

ATC Watcher

18th Sep 2007, 07:43

Nojwod :
In the world of flying there are two sorts of pilots: those who fly by the book and pursue a set of defined numbers to get the job done, and those for whom flying becomes an extension of their own selves and actually 'fly'

So true, so true....very well said.

Admiral346

18th Sep 2007, 08:04

Will meet with FP at TAP later this week - let's see what he thinks.

I'd love to hear about that !

And to the believers of the "extended self", how many times have you stubbed your toe? Or bumped your knee?

One little change in wind, some updraft, downdraft, not even to talk about any failure and this moron would have caused a nice fireball.
If you wnat to fly like that, take acro lessons or join the airforce. But GET OUT of an airline cockpit.

Nic

rodthesod

18th Sep 2007, 08:14

The pilot may well have exceptional flying skills but he demonstrated very little airmanship and apalling judgement in that display. On the basis of that performance he would certainly not be granted a Display Authorisation (DA) in UK.
Unless the rules have changed recently (I retired from display flying 5 years ago), the minimum height for straight flypasts in such aircraft is 100ft (300ft manoeuvring). It is therefore necessary to pull up from 100ft before turning even if it is not common sense to an individual pilot.
I have considerable display experience in Pitts S2A's and BAE 146's. I'd like to think that my 146 displays were spectacular enough to be enjoyed by the public without frightening them. I once had a slight slap on the wrist from the governing body (CAA) for infringing the 300ft rule when I relaxed a steep turn on a stick shake in gusty conditions - I only lost a few feet, but better to do that from 300ft than with my wingtip in the grass.
This foolhardy display was down to the PIC, NOT the airline - but if I was the chief pilot I think I would ground the pilot pending an investigation and start seriously questioning his responsibility and mental stability.

rts

ATC Watcher

18th Sep 2007, 08:19

Admiral :
But GET OUT of an airline cockpit.

That is the point, this was NOT an airline flight , but a Flight display/demo USING an airliner. Huge difference. If it had been the conclusion of a normal LHR-LIS flight, I would fully agree with you, pax did not pay tfor this. But it was not, and I doubt anyone would be interested to see an A310 doing a perfect ILS during an airshow.

anartificialhorizon

18th Sep 2007, 08:40

Does anyone remember the B52 that crashed at a practice display in the States some years ago? Reminds me of that .....

Supposedly that pilot had come close to causing a fireball a few times previously and most crews had refused to fly with him....Finally he got his way and caused the disaster that was awaiting.....

Pity he took his crew with him ......

Even though this was a display flight and the aircraft was there to display, it is not a Eurofighter or an F15 and should have been displayed as an airliner with due respect to its size, manouverability etc.

Reckless disregard imho.

Mungo Man

18th Sep 2007, 08:47

I still cannot beleive this event. I lifted this still from the video and am not going to even attempt to put a figure on the wingtip clearance. I think its appalling. This is a portrayal of proffessional commercial pilots that the industry could surely do without.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p79/Skippymon/TAP310.jpg

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 08:50

I can't see what all this 'extended self' and 'super collosal' nonsense is. It wasn't actually that exciting a stunt anyway save for it's low altitude. If there'd have been some steep turns, high alpha climbs or other exciting manouvres I might have believed there was some superior airmanship involved. Instead all we got was the sort of 5 foot flyby I seem to do most landings without any special training except this guy left himself no way out if anything went wrong.

tubby linton

18th Sep 2007, 08:56

http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/707buzz.jpg

toratoratora

18th Sep 2007, 08:58

I sure ain't no display pilot,but surely part of the responsibility of those who do such things is to minimise the danger to those on the ground?
On that consideration alone-:=:=:=

SR71

18th Sep 2007, 09:21

More on Bud Holland:

http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm

The trick is getting your risk assessment right.

What would Tex Johnston say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rILk6-4SMJQ

"Just don't do it again."

:ok:

APP Radar

18th Sep 2007, 09:46

Facts :

About the aircraft
1. The A310-300 carried no passengers.
2. The pilots of the A310-300 where amonst the ones with more hours flying this aircraft in TAP Portugal, one of them being the fleet pilot chief.
3. The manouvres were well prepared in advance and trained on the A310 simulator.

About the field
4. Évora is a small field with some particular aspects. One of them is the fact that the runways is at a higher level than the apron and the other side of the runway is also lower han the rounway itself.

Comments :

a. The participation of the A310-30, the first TAP Portugal participation on the Portugal Air Show ever, happened because the A310-30 is about to leave the fleet.
b. The manouvres were planned to show the full capacity of the airplane but were never intended to put the plane, the pilots or the ublic in risk. (the plane had arrived that morning from Caracas and left soon after the show to Brasil).
c. It's natural that both the public and some spotters thought that the wing was closer to the ground than in reality because they were standing on lower groun and lost the wing tip from sight due to the terrain.
d. Photos taken from higher level, from people standing on top of refuelling truck clearly show that there was no real proximity to terrain.

I had the opportunity to speak with the pilots, latter that day ...

The one thing they should have planned better was taking in account the terrain and the fact that people were standing on lower ground, making the manouvre a little bit higher wouldn't had make a difference on showing the aircraft (and pilots= capability but wouldn't have frighten the public.

Mungo Man

18th Sep 2007, 10:15

4. Évora is a small field with some particular aspects. One of them is the fact that the runways is at a higher level than the apron and the other side of the runway is also lower han the rounway itself.

Well this doesn't make any sense.

d. Photos taken from higher level, from people standing on top of refuelling truck clearly show that there was no real proximity to terrain

Well show me the photos that show the real not apparant wingtip clearance, where are these photos?

Airbrake

18th Sep 2007, 10:16

This fly past was highly unprofessional and has the hint of a management pilot out for a bit of a jolly.
Nobody would authorize a flight knowing what the intended tip clearance was going to be and the pilots would have no idea where any masts or aerials would be located on the field.
I bet this pilot never does a display again and that TAP management are considering their options very carefully.

App Radar, if you spoke to the pilots tell us that they were not management!

MrSoft

18th Sep 2007, 10:18

As a humble SLF. This Portuguese machismo stuff is seriously giving me the willies. Are there any sensible Portuguese out there willing to call this craziness for what it is? What is all this St. Exupery style gushing about transcendent experiences?

I've watched this a dozen times and each time I still have my heart in my mouth. Sorry if that makes me a dullard. I do not understand this supposed point about sloping perspectives, which the photographic evidence seems utterly to refute.

People seem to be wandering around inside the display box at random.

The whole thing is shabby.

SR71

18th Sep 2007, 10:21

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/ptspotter/2passagem4.jpg

Reading the thread helps one find the photos....

;)

Denti

18th Sep 2007, 10:24

Just for comparison another airshow display which was low but in my humble opinion with more regards for safety than the A310 discussed here. The airline has since changed its name to Germanwings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxKjZZDl8PI

sabenaboy

18th Sep 2007, 10:26

This foolhardy display was down to the PIC, NOT the airline - but if I was the chief pilot I think I would ground the pilot pending an investigation and start seriously questioning his responsibility and mental stability.

Well, according to info on airliners.net the PIC was Cpt César Brito, no less than the TAP Airbus A310 fleet last Chief Pilot.
Who is going to fire him?

Perhaps the guy is not a total idiot, but what he showed in Evora that day makes me doubt that very much! :ugh: :ooh:

SR71

18th Sep 2007, 10:27

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/middle/8/3/6/0051638.jpg
Bloody hell those BA pilots are hooligans....
Wouldn't find a TAP pilot doing that in a VC-10 would you?
;)

Trash Hauler

18th Sep 2007, 10:30

Is it immently dangerous - possibly
Did they get away with it - yes

What is it about airshows that result in (hopefully) disciplined pilots pushing the limits beyond what they need to make the show look good? All too often at an airshow someone spears in and occasionally it takes out an innocent party.

I love airshows and I love seeing transport aircraft going through their paces but if this clipped a wing and went in we would all be criticising the drivers.

Cheers

TH

HotDog

18th Sep 2007, 10:39

We have done missed approaches in typhoon conditions from even lower levels with a full load of pax in the back and in screaming crosswinds. What's the big deal about a low level flypast and climbout by an experienced crew and empty aeroplane in good met?:confused:

flybrick

18th Sep 2007, 10:43

Found these

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1386252723&size=l

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=et4AutqDPVo&mode=related&search=

don't think they have been posted here.

See the slope on the left side of rwy?

Speed 220km/h, by twr pa man.

Airbrake

18th Sep 2007, 11:00

Hotdog, can you confirm to us all that you are comparing this to a normal missed approach?

sleeper

18th Sep 2007, 11:06

"2. The pilots of the A310-300 where amonst the ones with more hours flying this aircraft in TAP Portugal, one of them being the fleet pilot chief."

-Lots of flying hours (lineflying) alone does not make you a good display pilot.
-Chief pilots and other management pilots are more prone to incidents /accidents. This is inherent to their positions, because in them they don't fly much.
- Whatever they practised in the sim, you cannot judge wingtip height in low turns while flying a big airliner.

Even if they (he) were trained display pilots, this was dangerous and unprofessional and in no way will impress real pilots. And no, I am not a mere button pusher

SR71

18th Sep 2007, 11:15

A quick troll through airliners.net will reveal this kind of thing has been going on for years, and in aircraft bigger than a A310.

As for judging wingtip height above ground, its simple trigonometry. The fact that it is an airliner doesn't change Phythagoras Theorem.

For me the call hinges on whether they intended their tip clearance to be what it was...

HotDog

18th Sep 2007, 11:18

Hotdog, can you confirm to us all that you are comparing this to a normal missed approach?

Not at all, our aim was to land the airplane.

sleeper

18th Sep 2007, 11:20

"simple trigonometry" , Yes, on paper.

Visualy from cockpit height is a different matter. Don't tell me they calculated exactly that at X altitude they could bank Y degrees so that the wing tip was just of the ground. No way.

If this was intentional, than it borders on the criminal side.
If not, then it proves that they were not capable of display flying.

TOMMY1954

18th Sep 2007, 11:21

You are wrong, the plane didn´t have passengers, only the captain (4000h in type) and co-pilot, and they did a great job .
Regards

Dutch Mill

18th Sep 2007, 11:30

Quote of pressrelease 6467 (http://www.flytap.com/Portugal/pt/Empresa/Imprensa/PressReleases/6476) (in portuguese) on the flytap.com site dated September 14th, 2007 :
A TAP vai prestar uma homenagem à sua frota A310, este sábado, dia 15 de Setembro, no Portugal Air Show em Évora, com um voo de exibição que está previsto para as 14H45. Com quatro mil horas de voo em A310, César Brito, o último comandante a chefiar esta frota na Companhia, e o Comandante Vítor Pereira, vão sobrevoar o aeródromo municipal de Évora marcando assim o início do “phase out” da frota A310.
Babelfish translation:
The TAP goes to give a homage to its fleet A310, this Saturday, day 15 of September, in Portugal Air Show in Évora, with one flight of exhibition that is foreseen for 14H45. With four a thousand hours of flight in A310, César Brito, the last commander to command this fleet in the Company, and the Commander Vítor Pereira, goes to fly over the municipal aerodrome of Évora thus marking the beginning of "phase out" of the A310 fleet.

D&M

18th Sep 2007, 11:32

Just liked to leave a couple of key sentences on this subject that I found on another discussion forum...

"I think if the PIC would have a look at these video's he would probably admit that that was a bit to close."

"Looks like another airshow disaster in the making to me! Aren't all the pilots killed in airshows experts in their fields? They are - until they overcook it and unfortunately spread themselves all over the runway! When watching that video, part of me almost expects the aircraft to gently sideslip into the ground, it is a damn great airliner after all, not some overpowered "paraffin budgie" of a fighter..."

norihaga

18th Sep 2007, 11:33

Not a professional pilot (disclaimer given...), but leaving no margin for error is not necessarily something to be done with a multi-million dollar aircraft and a large crowd of people. Poll seems to suggest most of the professionals agree.

Since people are posting youtube videos, perhaps someone could provide a link to that unintentionally exciting display by a similarly highly skilled SU27 driver a few years back. Especially thrilling is the one with the guy videoing his young family who turns around to see frontal aviation's finest cartwheeling past him through the crowd about 20 meters away... :eek:

Glass Half Empty

18th Sep 2007, 11:39

You only have to look at the survey results to see what the vast majority of pilots think of this spectacle.

If this was practised in a sim then it does not say much for the supervision or competence of those thinking that this was a good idea. The blind leading the blind is more likely.

If the low turn was done on the day as a "good idea" I could fathom it more clearly, but either way the individual concerned should explain himself to the company insurers and then the public he put in danger at the event. And for what - a thrill for the pilot flying because the spectators would not have given a rat's ar*se if it had been done at several hundred feet.

Thanks for bringing it to the attention of the wider pilot body. Interesting to see that the few defenders are also the pilots countrymen. Can't criticise your solidarity there - misplaced though it is.

SR71

18th Sep 2007, 11:43

NoriHaga...one of the biggest risk takers in the business.

:ok:

rubik101

18th Sep 2007, 11:46

To those of you who think the pilots were skillfully executing a maneourvre practiced in the simulator, I ask you this.
What would you be writing here if he had made the turn a few metres lower and clipped the wing on the ground?
What would you be writing if it had been a few more metres lower and the aircraft cartwheeled into a rolling ball of flaming debris?
You would be conspicuous by your absence, I'm sure.
The pilots and those who think it was a wonderful piece of display flying, are genuinely misguided. The crew handling the aircraft, and anyone who apparently authorised it, are complete and utter idiots.
The pilots should be sacked and grounded permanently and the guy who authorised it, if indeed he did, should be on the street, jobless.
How any rational person, let alone a pilot, can look at that display of utter lunacy and say, well done, is sadly misinformed, ignorant or just plain stupid.

what next

18th Sep 2007, 11:58

Hello!

Just for comparison another airshow display which was low but in my humble opinion with more regards for safety than the A310 discussed here.

I was there that day. Nice to look at, but neither very low nor very spectecular and not dangerous at all. Nothing compared to what Airbus used to show with A300s and A310s at Le Bourget in the 80ies.

The airline has since changed its name to Germanwings.

No, it is still called Eurowings, but does not operate Airbusses any more (see http://www.eurowings.de).

Greetings, Max

DartHerald

18th Sep 2007, 12:03

With the greatest respect to the current total of 46 professional pilots who have voted no - you really need to consider how 'professional' you are.

This flying was irresponsible to an extreme extent and could so easily have ended in tragic circumstances.

Caudillo

18th Sep 2007, 12:09

Guys you're the first with the howls and the cries when a newspaper publishes a photo of a "near miss" that is simply a parallax, or a "near crash" that turns out to be a crosswind landing.

So who here apart from a couple of qualified posters is familiar with évora field and its terrain? If not, then you're no better than your despised journalists for whom you have such derision. As I, you do not know what happened, you aren't familiar with the crew, the training or the location - all you have is a couple of limited viewpoints, yet your kangaroo court has already come to a hysterical judgement. Now off to the Northern Rock to withdraw your savings. :D

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 12:16

The fact that the runway may be on a crown of terrain really isn't that relevant. If they'd ingested a large bird down the engine during that stunt a couple of feets difference in elevation would only have added a milisecond or so to the time to impact. It's the people who know what could have gone wrong who are most surprised by that flight.

what next

18th Sep 2007, 12:19

Hello!

This flying was irresponsible to an extreme extent and could so easily have ended in tragic circumstances

About as easily as every single landing? Ever seen how close the wingtips come to the ground then? And with no excess energy to straighten or pull up if necessary and with zero safetey margin against the unexpected like the quoted birdstrikes or windshear!

But I wasn't there and I haven't talked to anyone who was, and most important: I haven't heard the pilots speak - so what can I say, other then the most basic statement of our law system: "In dubio pro reo."?
And therefore, I checked the "No" box.

Greetings, Max

CptSilva

18th Sep 2007, 12:21

Very professional pilots, being one of them Chief of Fleet saftey was never an issue, imagine you´ve to make a go around by any reason and you´ve to put the aircraft in that situation? By the amount of replys 80% of you guys in a situation like that you would crash the aircraft, i´m a pilot and not in a moment i think that the demonstration was dangerous, just one in hundred of demonstrations similar to that one.

And please check again definition of AIRSHOW!!!!!

Denti

18th Sep 2007, 12:24

Quote:
The airline has since changed its name to Germanwings.

No, it is still called Eurowings, but does not operate Airbusses any more (see http://www.eurowings.de).

Greetings, Max

Not quite right. There were two companies, one was Eurowings AG which operated and operates regional Airliners. The other was a subsidiary Company called Eurowings Flug GmbH which operated several Airbus. This company was renamed into Germanwings after Lufty took over the whole thing (using an old named they aquired after they bankrupted the first Germanwings). Interestingly enough Germanwings is still owned to 100% by Eurowings.

Sorry for the OT.

PumpCockMixMags

18th Sep 2007, 12:28

Tommy 1954
"You are wrong, the plane didn´t have passengers, only the captain (4000h in type) and co-pilot, and they did a great job .
Regards"

These pair of cowboys probably gave themselves a pat on the back for a job well done as they walked away from the jet with their spurs chinking. As a military pilot, I have seen some interesting flypasts but this was foolhardy to the extreme. They were LUCKY not to clip a wing and cartwheel into the ground which would have yet again have brought an unwelcome spotlight onto the aviation industry. Please, don't make it any easier for those, that would ban airtravel outright, to take the moral high ground. Fly Safe

BTW, there are plenty of pilots with 4000h+ who didnt get it right. The only conclusion is that he should have known better.

Old Pilots, Bold Pilots....

Chuffer Chadley

18th Sep 2007, 12:51

only the captain (4000h in type) and co-pilot

If I had been the co-pilot on that flight, I would have been screaming at the captain to behave himself, then taking control, landing somewhere convenient, and then beating him to a pulp.

And I don't mean any of that in a good way. 4000hrs or no.

Good for the airshow spectators, tho!

Cheerio!
CC

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 12:55

People talk like the fact the guy was Chief Pilot makes it OK! I read Chief Pilot and alarm bells start ringing. Too much time in the office, lack of exposure to a real operating environment, a feeling of invincibility, over confidence, group think amongst fellow managers (who's going to tell him it's a bad idea, and would he listen if they did). This isn't like a normal landing or go around. Most responsible operators have an SOP that you don't turn below X hundred feet. Throwing in a swift left at 50 feet is a dumb move.

lexxie747

18th Sep 2007, 13:14

what an idiot!

HotDog

18th Sep 2007, 13:17

So you have access to the QAR? Who told you he threw a swift left at 50 feet? They didn't crash did they? So all went as planned.:rolleyes:

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 13:23

Did you miss the video evidence? 50 feet? 100 feet? It's still a low turn, but hey, it's OK cos they didn't crash. I don't really believe you subscribe to the "They got away with it so it must be OK" school of thought but your posts are beginning to suggest otherwise.

HotDog

18th Sep 2007, 13:49

"They got away with it so it must be OK"
Hand Solo, mate; they didn't crash because they didn't plan to do so and they knew exactly what they were doing. It is very difficult to judge height above ground on photographic evidence, depends a lot on what lens was used to video the scene. They certainly were not at 50 feet, otherwise they would have dug the left wing in for sure. The title of "TAP A310 near disaster" must have been cloned from the Daily Mirror, surely?

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 14:05

Nobody plans to crash but it keeps on happening! A lot of people who knew exactly what they were doing are pushing up the daisies because something they didn't expect to happen happened and they hadn't left themselves an out. The 'disaster' tag in this instance is over the top because they did get away with it, but the manouvre looks unnecessarily risky and doesn't leave a prudent margin for error. It wouldn't have taken very much for for there to have been a very different outcome which is why air displays are so stringently regulated in the UK. Perhaps Portugal has never suffered an airshow disaster, but a lot of nations have learned the hard way that experts who knew what they were doing and we're well practiced don't always get it right.

RatherBeFlying

18th Sep 2007, 14:09

Looking at Luis Goncalves piccy posted by SR71 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3558505&postcount=71) , we see an approximate bank angle of 30 degrees.

sine(30) x (wingspan A310=144)/2 = 36'

Estimating 25' for the tree (it looks a bit dessicated out there), we get about 50' of terrain clearance with no allowance for trees or gravel piles:uhoh:

The static ports being in the nose, we can guesstimate the altimeter reading 50+36+14 to be about 100'
If the RA compensates for bank it would read about 20' lower than the barometric altimeter.

To calculate a minimum value RA before beginning bank, I'd suggest adding 36' to surveyed maximum obstacle height (looks like 25') + 100' for the wife, kids, stockholders and insurers which would come to about 160' RA or 175' baro.

Capt.KAOS

18th Sep 2007, 14:21

Still 9% stiffer upper lips and tally ho...

MrSoft

18th Sep 2007, 14:23

Hotdog, "It is very difficult to judge height above ground on photographic evidence".

True indeed. But is it any easier from the flight deck? Did the pilot have a better reality available to him than that big fat video-grab I'm looking at from an earlier poster?

Doesn't every CFT incident start with the premise "It's OK, I knew what I was doing"?

GSXR1K

18th Sep 2007, 14:26

In motorcycling terms (more than one motorcycle fan in here, i´ve noticed :ok:), when Valentino Rossi left all-conquering Honda for the inferior Yamaha, respected Eurosport commentator (and former multi GP winner) Randy Mamola told him, after testing the Yamaha, "you´re f*ck*d", because he judged the machine by what he could do with it.
Of course Rossi went on to become MotoGP world champion first time out on that inferior Yamaha, and offered Honda the biggest humble pie ever baked in the process.

The point? Not everyone has the same level of skill.
To some pilots landing a C152 in a 8 knot crosswind is bordering on lunacy...

barit1

18th Sep 2007, 14:31

They were practicing for attack on a forest fire? :}

DartHerald

18th Sep 2007, 14:34

Some 25 years ago I remember being at the Farnborough airshow as an aircraft (Buffalo I think) was coming into land at a very steep angle. I will never forget the commentator saying that "believe it or not ladies and gentlemen this aircraft is going to land".

A few seconds later the 'professional' pilot smacked his aircraft on the runway as the u/c collapsed and it all went 'crunch' resulting in the rest of the display being abandoned!!

Fortunately he walked away but clearly he made a big mistake and despite what some people here think, what may seem safe and sensible to them is not that at all.

As I walked back through the car park I saw one of the props embedded in the front of a car - now that could have been really nasty with some innocent victims paying the price of someone else's actions - it is not beyond the relms of doubt that such a thing could have happened here and I for one would wish such people didn't do such things.

Chuffer Chadley

18th Sep 2007, 14:35

The point? Not everyone has the same level of skill.

Come on!! I can cut the margins finer because I'm more skillful than capt x,y,z... only a crazy man would go down that route.

Who was it said a superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgment to avoid a situation which might require the use of his superior skill?

wingview

18th Sep 2007, 14:36

I heard nobody about the fact that they already made a pass before this one discribed. So they knew that there was probably no (gusty)wind, perfect conditions and I really think that birds are being kept away during a show. On one of the pics you can clearly see that they've past the spectators and on another that terrain is going down (which you hardly can see on the video). They've done it in the sim (most probably more then ones...) and know the field. It looks spectaculair and that's why they were there for.
John

sitigeltfel

18th Sep 2007, 14:38

Some extreme x-wind landings, the Tex Johnson 707 roll and Bob Hoover shows how to get a wing down low. I bet its Coke in that glass ;)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5fc_1189993936

Musics nice also :cool:

HotDog

18th Sep 2007, 14:52

Did the pilot have a better reality available to him than that big fat video-grab I'm looking at from an earlier poster?

The answer is YES, MrSoft. It is practice, skill and exact readout of height above terrain from the radio altimeter.

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 14:58

So they knew that there was probably no (gusty)wind, perfect conditions and I really think that birds are being kept away during a show.

..because gusty winds don't come and go do they? And birds? We could put a sign up saying "Please stay away" but we'd better hope that any that were hoping to transit the area can read. Or saw the last bird scaring activity and decided to stay away.:ugh:

We used to find it tremendous fun to practice visual circuits at Geneva in the simulator. At 50 feet. It was dead easy. Just because you can practice something in the simulator doesn't mean it's safe or sensible to do it in a real aircraft.

Fg Off Max Stout

18th Sep 2007, 15:14

The simple fact is that a straight and level flypast at 200ft from an airliner would probably be exciting enough for the crowd of spectators. There is no need to throw it around like a fighter. In the UK the display auth minimum height for military jets is, I believe, normally 50ft. So what was this fella's authed minimum?

There is no way that the wingtip was 50ft AGL! Closer to 5-10ft by my conservative estimate. Add to that the fact that the wingtips cannot be seen from the cockpit, and I suggest that it was more by luck than judgement that these cowboys got away with it. You do not need to take risks to do a good display. Leave throwing it around at low level to the Pitts Specials etc.

In my opinion a good pilot keeps a safe margin in hand, (comprising his authorised legal minima + a little bit for his flying accuracy + some for unexpected events + a smidgen for the wife and kids). To leave no margin at all is cocky bad attitude at best and recklessly bad airmanship at worst, and either way, is asking for trouble.

ACMS

18th Sep 2007, 15:47

I have 1 more word for you.
MARGIN
he didn't have any, none, zip and nada.
Look, I've been a certified Aviation nut since I was born and just love a good display as much or not more than the next guy but jesus H christ..........in all my 30 years as a professional Pilot I have never witnessed such a callous disregard for safety.
If he had cartwheeled in it would have taken a huge slab of their company reputation and profit with him. Not to mention god knows how many innocent bystanders at the show who expect a certain level of PROFESSIONALISM from the Pilot's at the show.
If you want to see large transport category aircraft perform these RISKY maneuvers then do it on Microsoft Flight Sim.

nippysweetie

18th Sep 2007, 15:58

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 16:12

Straight over the crowd. Nice. I guess they really don't have any airshow regulations in Portugal.

Airbrake

18th Sep 2007, 16:23

Hand Solo you beat me to it. Complete lack of any discipline, this guy was totally reckless. If the airline don't deal with this event accordingly the National CAA should hang him out to dry.

DoNotFeed

18th Sep 2007, 16:34

With military roots having flown many displays at airshows even at low altitude and now for many thousand hours on medium and heavy transport in training i can just say this guy and more people on the ground were lucky to survive.
If he got his maths right for bank and height he forgot maybe the slant height on the RA:ok:
It looks like he forgot an plane has wings on:}
And if someone tells me he is used to this by flying to FNC frquently we should aviod this operator:yuk:
An low pass looks by the way best at 150ft wings level and at moderate speed gear up.
cheers

JanetFlight

18th Sep 2007, 16:36

NEGATIVE...The Crowd was on the other side of the Runway...Those guys were there by themselves!!!:cool:

JW411

18th Sep 2007, 16:38

Before the xenophobes get started, Portugal is Britain's oldest ally!

I make no comment upon the flypast.

ARINC

18th Sep 2007, 16:41

The answer is YES, MrSoft. It is practice, skill and exact readout of height above terrain from the radio altimeter.

Not at that AOB ! Gross over read if anything....

Selfloading

18th Sep 2007, 16:49

Have a look at this: http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=BWdDHGEMQ2Q if your going to tell me its just a camera affect and the wingtip was miles above the ground because it sloped away, then the airfield must be on the top of a friggin mountain.

Viper2

18th Sep 2007, 16:50

Completely against all regulations about diplays at airshows. We can discuss about 5ft or 10ft wingtip clearance and about difficulty to judge the real height from pictures or video footage. One thing is for sure: he was way to low!

Maybe in Portugal there are different rules for displays at airshows but in almost any other country in Europe you would have a big problem after this stunt. Totally unprofessional and quite dangerous.

wingview

18th Sep 2007, 16:58

In this vid (bash me if I'm wrong:oh:) you'll see he's in control and knows what he's doing:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CVIAiy-LNvs

Selfloading

18th Sep 2007, 17:05

Well I certainly don't want to bash you, but I don't think anybody said he was out of control, the fact that he did it deliberately is not of much comfort to me.

flybrick

18th Sep 2007, 17:06

Whether he's a crazy fool or a god of the skies, if something went awry, he'd have taken plenty of other souls out in a fireball. Here's a view of his gear-up flypast

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=zXGTfS...elated&search= (http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=zXGTfSS3AnQ&mode=related&search=)

Neg, this one was for spotters saluting, the hi speed?

this one...http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=sneYFUtiKKc:ok:

Fg Off Max Stout

18th Sep 2007, 17:31

You can't see the wingtip clearance in that clip at all, so it's not much use. I cannot believe that this chap had a display clearance of, say for example, 10ft, so I suggest that he is almost certainly breaking his legal minima and leaving almost zero safety margin. Not very clever.

Krueger

18th Sep 2007, 17:32

When people make judjement about what happened by watching pictures and films, they are becaming the journalists they despise so much.

I believe that if you asked the pilots who were at the show what they thought of the maneuver, you would get different statistics.

And another thing, let's raise the level of forum by refraining to call idiot and stupid to the people you don't agree with.:mad:

Check Six Krueger...

Mungo Man

18th Sep 2007, 17:50

The answer is YES, MrSoft. It is practice, skill and exact readout of height above terrain from the radio altimeter.

Mmmm and what does rad alt give you? The height between the main gear and the ground directly beneath the gear. That is what it is calibrated for... in the landing attitude, ie 2/3 degrees pitch up and wings level.

It does not calculate wingtip clearance in a 30 degree bank.... I;m not sure but in a turn rad alt may over read considerably due to simple trigonometry.

chiglet

18th Sep 2007, 18:15

There is a clip on Jetblast of a Varig B727 doing a LOW flyby...and turn. The difference between the two is 200+kts..
In 40+ years of both Civ and Mil aviation I have seen some hair raising flying, but this is rather close to the knuckle.
watp,iktch

SR71

18th Sep 2007, 18:56

I'm pretty sure statistically you've got a higher chance of killing someone doing three figures in your Porsche on the motorway than you have doing a low pass in a commercial jet...

Puts things in perspective doesn't it?

Why doesn't an Airbus pilot with access to a sim tell us whether an empty A310 is recoverable from an engine failure at 150ft in a 30 degree banked turn?

Personally, I'll give the pilots the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Because I am a pilot.

On the assumption they did practise the manoeuvre in the sim, I'd be surprised if they didn't cater for this eventuality.

Fg Off Max Stout

18th Sep 2007, 19:01

That was NOT 150ft.

I'm pretty sure statistically you've got a higher chance of killing someone doing three figures in your Porsche on the motorway than you have doing a low pass in a commercial jet...
Well that's alright then. No problem at all with knocking around at ultra low level in a commercial airliner!

what next

18th Sep 2007, 19:13

Hello!

It does not calculate wingtip clearance in a 30 degree bank.... I;m not sure but in a turn rad alt may over read considerably due to simple trigonometry.

It certainly does. But if they have done their homework before taking off (i.e. practised in the sim and studied their trigonometry), then they knew at which radar altitude in level flight they can safely execute a 30 degree banked turn without hitting anything. Plain mathematics and physics.

And as for display regulations and pilots observing them, just look where the "big" airshow crashes with lots of fatalities took place. I don't see Portugal on that list, but rather countries like Germany, one of the most severly regulated places in the world... (and if I remember correctly, the UK has lost a few dozen spectators in airshow accidents as well over the years).

Greetings, Max

hetfield

18th Sep 2007, 19:16

Very well said.

Grüße

rubik101

18th Sep 2007, 19:21

Simply put, the pilot is a prat. No question. Why you imbeciles who contribute to this madness continue to defend the imbecile who was trying to fly the aircraft is beyond me!
He and his fellow crew are lucky, very lucky, to be alive.

Midland63

18th Sep 2007, 19:24

Just an SLF here (in Portugal so TAP are my home team!) but my first thought was also that cameras do lie so there would be some rational explanation such as the ground sloping away out of sight so perfectly safe height AGL when he commenced the turn.

What are the rules about how high it's safe to start a turn? It should be no different for a regular flight with pax aboard or an airshow for fear of collateral damage on the ground.

Until I hear - from a readout of the FDR etc., not YouTube! - this crew broke rules, I give them the benefit of the doubt. Indeed (to be more positive) I've seen nothing to make me doubt the professionalism of TAP Portugal.

Rgds, M63

PS I voted in the poll "I don't have a view" because I'm not qualified to express a view, one way or t'other.

clearedtocross

18th Sep 2007, 19:30

some other guys who wanted to make a big impression with an airliner and did!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNsFDiX3cvM

Immelmann

18th Sep 2007, 19:42

What is, in your mind, the limitations for airshows?
I have done some from KRUEGER

Hi, KRUEGER,

where did you fly your airshows or displays???What a/c type?
Have you ever been on the briefing before the airshow starts?
Did you bring in your planned profile for approval?

Fox 3 !!

604guy

18th Sep 2007, 19:56

I really think that birds are being kept away during a show.

I am just curious, was that memo to the birds only in Portuguese or was it in several languages for the benefit of any foreign birds that might have been transiting the area? Perhaps a handy computer terminal had been placed in the vicinity and made user friendly for those with an ornithological persuasion so that they could update their NOTAMS?

And what if there had been an airspace violation? Would any resultant disciplinary action been dealt with by the civilian aviation authority or would that have been contracted out to the local cat population? ;)

SR71

18th Sep 2007, 19:56

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/middle/1/5/3/0116351.jpg

Another hooligan.

:ok:

Hand Solo

18th Sep 2007, 20:04

And as for display regulations and pilots observing them, just look where the "big" airshow crashes with lots of fatalities took place. I don't see Portugal on that list, but rather countries like Germany, one of the most severly regulated places in the world... (and if I remember correctly, the UK has lost a few dozen spectators in airshow accidents as well over the years).

And when did those regulations come in in Germany? I'd hazard a guess it was after they learned a hard lesson at Ramstein. The UK learned the hard way at Farnborough in 1952 when an expertly trained pilot who knew what he was doing and had practiced his routine (sound familiar?) found his aircraft falling apart around him, leading to his death and that of 30 spectators. Since then the UK hasn't lost a single spectator at an airshow due to the stringent regulations, yet still manages to put on some spectacular aerial displays.

If the Portuguese authorities think it can't happen to them then thats a very dangerous attitude. Personally I'd rather watch a skilled pilot put the aircraft through it's paces above 300 feet than watch some cowboy do a straight forward but risky low altitude pass.

AdamLT

18th Sep 2007, 20:21

no chance of seeing this sort of thing in the UK.
a pretty close shave i must say...but quite fascinating to watch :)

chiglet

18th Sep 2007, 21:28

Janet, MEN father Children
BOYS want to......
Look at your clip...at 00.27sec the wing tip is.....LOW
at 00/29sec the wing tip is eerrrmmm
"Picked/nudged" UP
Now, I have seen a heck of a lot of
a, Air Displays
b, Air Shows
c. Air Flybys
That is not Poetry..with or without words...it is
ME, I am retiring. I am going to go out with a bang...so stuff the rules.
Fortunately......he did not go out with a bang.
watp.iktch

redflyer

18th Sep 2007, 22:08

I've been told that if the wing of my aeoplane clears an obstacle the tail will. If an A310 radalt reads 100ft they can do a knife edge, can't have been much higher than that. Show offs.. More likely very lucky:eek:Sorry if i'm back to the point.

CptSilva

18th Sep 2007, 22:52

First of all i´m very unhappy with the rules of this thread, i´ve been told that a reply from a Portuguese user was removed and i saw is reply and it was not abusive of any kind.
What i think is abusive is the amount of replies judging the atitudes of that AirShow ( and check again definition of Airshow ) demonstration, 99% of you guys was quiet at home and not in the Portuguese Airshow, most of you state your opinion in a web based video where there is no real sensation about the real action in the Airshow, yes it was a low pass, but most of you think that you are in the top of aviation wisdom and you guys dont know that the demonstration was trained in an aproved simulator in diferent scenarios plus 50 hours in the aircraft, this was with the aproval of the Airline and it was a special thanks to the Airbus 310 fleet since they are being phase-out starting in November.
I dont see Red Bull Air race being judge in this Forum and the stunts are almost in the same level of skill, with the diference that the aircraft is diferent and if we are talking about safety the number of persons at the Portuguese Airshow was about 10% of the amount of spectators that you found in any Red Bull Air Race.
Please dont talk about something most of you guys dont have clue, and i say again if any of you guys some day in your life have to make a go around maneuver about 50ft over the runway and have to bank the aircraft like that most of guys would not make it.
Best Regards,
Paulo Silva ( Paulo17 do LDF orgulhosamente )

kiwi chick

18th Sep 2007, 23:18

And to clarify some ignorant minds, this flight had no pax and was fully trained in the sim.

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Oh - well what are we all being so pedantic for then?

Fully trained for what? Being an idiot? Cartwheel recovery?? I like airshows but had I been at that one I wouldn't have been excited - I'd have just sworn at the jerk.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Krueger

18th Sep 2007, 23:25

where did you fly your airshows or displays???What a/c type?
Have you ever been on the briefing before the airshow starts?
Did you bring in your planned profile for approval?

Hi Immelman,

Mostly Airbases, F-16, yes, yes.

Guns track, Kill.

Check Six krueger...

LapSap

18th Sep 2007, 23:39

Not much different than a standard Kennedy SID/Canarsie climb?
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=8j-3003jtuY

(Turn your speakers up!)

Willit Run

19th Sep 2007, 00:03

Most AG pilots will agree, pitch and THEN roll !

Hand Solo

19th Sep 2007, 01:27

I dont see Red Bull Air race being judge in this Forum and the stunts are almost in the same level of skill, with the diference that the aircraft is diferent and if we are talking about safety the number of persons at the Portuguese Airshow was about 10% of the amount of spectators that you found in any Red Bull Air Race.

The Red Bull Air Race is a properly organised and planned event. No chance of the aircraft hitting spectators, small lightweight aircraft flying as they were designed to be flown and capable of pulling 9+ G if they need to get out of trouble. Not the same as buzzing the tower in an A310

Please dont talk about something most of you guys dont have clue, and i say again if any of you guys some day in your life have to make a go around maneuver about 50ft over the runway and have to bank the aircraft like that most of guys would not make it.

Have you ever flown a go around in an airliner from 50ft, or from 0ft? I have. No big deal. Even banking like they did is no great challenge as long as you are climbing away from the ground rapidly. This stunt may well have been practiced extensively in the simulator, but it's not a difficult manouvre. It's excitement comes only from the fact that they are dangerously close to the ground. If they'd flown something truly challenging at a safe height we'd all be impressed. They flew something unchallenging at an unsafe height, which is why we are not impressed.

two green one prayer

19th Sep 2007, 01:50

I'm not a pilot. Too many knobs and buttons for a simpleton like me. I do know about danger though as I have done a lot of jobs that were iherently dangerous. The reason that I am still intact after 50 years is that I always had a plan "b" when I judged that something might go horribly wrong. I seldom had to invoke it but it was always a great comfort to know it was there. I don't think that the pilots of this aircraft had anywhere to go except straight to the smoking hole if there was the slightest human error or mechanical failure. This was an airshow not a theatre of war.

Rippa

19th Sep 2007, 01:56

Best low pass on THE BEST airplane !
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl7QgjdRONo
:D

Enjoy.."Drive it like you stole it!" hahahahahaha

Mark1234

19th Sep 2007, 02:14

Hand Solo "The Red Bull Air Race is a properly organised and planned event. No chance of the aircraft hitting spectators, small lightweight aircraft flying as they were designed to be flown and capable of pulling 9+ G if they need to get out of trouble. Not the same as buzzing the tower in an A310"

Been to one?! Properly organised, planned, sure. As they were designed to be flown - can't argue. No chance of hitting speccys? Hmmm....

I was at longleat first time round. Standing on the bank with a few thousand people. I have a photo somewhere of a competitor coming through the gate flat chat, feet off the ground at some funny angle... pointing STRAIGHT at me 3-400m away (max). Anything hiccupped, and there would have been a good chance a lot of us would have been wearing that aeroplane.

It sticks in my mind 'cos I wondered how the h*ll they got away with putting that on from a regulatory point of view: my choice to be there, and I wasn't unhappy (acceptable risk), but I did wonder about the ignorance is bliss crowd. Also, recently there've been a couple of very close to hitting the ground moments (Kirby Chambliss, and one of the UK chaps).

FWIW I also think airshows in the UK have gone downhill since all the legislation. I also remember watching some awesome flying from the Hanna's. As for the airbus, it certainly looks dodgy, but the camera can often exaggerate. At least was pointing away from the crowd at all times.

CYPR

19th Sep 2007, 02:19

Impressive videos, yes. Forum comments would seem to prove that the rarest commodidty on God's earth is common sense........... in other words why don't some of us wish to reach old age?????

md80fanatic

19th Sep 2007, 02:27

They flew something unchallenging at an unsafe height, which is why we are not impressed.
I, for one, was highly impressed. The 727 clip was good too.....but the A310 held it's low altitude though a 130+ degree turn...very nice. :D

Viper2

19th Sep 2007, 03:13

was trained in an aproved simulator in diferent scenarios plus 50 hours in the aircraft

You want us to believe that TAP spends 50 hours in a real aircraft (without passengers I presume) to train a crew for a pass at an airshow? :confused:

GSXR1K

19th Sep 2007, 08:36

"Simply put, the pilot is a prat. No question. Why you imbeciles who contribute to this madness continue to defend the imbecile who was trying to fly the aircraft is beyond me!"

Now there´s a class contribution...and they´ve erased a contribution from a portuguese ppruner? Was it half as abusive as the one above? I´d bet not... Oh well, what´s new?!...

dv8

19th Sep 2007, 08:38

Look at the fence on the left. The terrain does dip away. Its tree tops that is in the background
Out of interest what are the runway elevations at both ends?
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/ptspotter/2passagem4.jpg

MrSoft

19th Sep 2007, 08:45

Quote:
The answer is YES, MrSoft. It is practice, skill and exact readout of height above terrain from the radio altimeter.

Are the altimeters in the wingtips? Your view is, that he could take an instrument reading, itself inaccurate but (following some further on-the-spot mental adjustments) potentially accurate, in real-time at 50ft in a 30deg bank? I am not having a go, I am genuinely interested whether pilots would think this sensible practice.

Is it me or does he start sinking again mid way through his turn?

What a great thread. There seem to be 3 opinions :

1. The manouevre was unsafe
2. Because he "knew what he was doing" this somehow makes it safe, go Portugal!
3. Bit naughty but, Attaboy!

2 & 3 refuse to engage with the arguments of 1, as far as I can see.

Krueger

19th Sep 2007, 09:01

br.youtube.com/watch?v=z4KLXlE9ZU4

Hi Immelman, this one is for you.

ANd the following are for Hand Solo and his Brit friends...

br.youtube.com/watch?v=7IwplA7_4lU

br.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDDDKnNhuE

Relax and enjoy...:ok:

What do you say to these low level passes?

Check Six krueger...

Cityliner

19th Sep 2007, 09:15

146 "professional Pilots" are thinking according to the poll that this stunt was safe!!!
We are talking about wether a 30 bank turn in less than 100ft RA is safe or not.
To those who think it is safe, try it in your next Simride, maybe the instructor will like it aswell. I doubt that but have a try!!
Stupid Stunt and Shocking Poll result (I know a Poll on Pprune might not be very truth relating)

Final 3 Greens

19th Sep 2007, 09:18

Hello Krueger

Comparing a Spitfire Mk9 or a jet fighter with an A310 seems to have little intrinsic merit.

I can safely do things in my car that would be dangerous in a 38 tonne lorry.

Of course I am not commenting on the operation of the TAP A310, as I don't have the qualifications to do that, but I do have the qualifications to challenge an illogical comparison.

Fg Off Max Stout

19th Sep 2007, 09:37

Krueger,

Amusing videos, but meaningless with respect to the question of this thread. You could probably successfully roll that Phantom at 50ft - does that mean it would be OK in an A310?

All the examples of low passes that you just posted would probably result in disciplinary action these days. Not really a good way to justify nearly putting an airliner wingtip into the ground.

sleeper

19th Sep 2007, 09:41

By now 147 "professional pilots"

This is an anonymous forum. Anybody can call himself a professional pilot.
It is therefore impossible to read anything from the numbers.

HotDog

19th Sep 2007, 09:41

MrSoft, he was in a level attitude before he commenced his left banking turn. His RA gave him his altitude above ground level, he knew his wing span and having practiced this manouver before, knew that he could safely execute the climbing turn without creating a disaster from the "near disaster" title of this thread.:rolleyes:

SR71

19th Sep 2007, 09:41

I wonder....

Of the contributors who voted this is unprofessional, how many think golf is an exciting game?

Of the contributors who voted this is not unprofessional, how many indulge the odd sky-dive or base-jump?

Different approaches to risk assessment....

I'm with Mark1234....I thought the exact same thing about The Red Bull Air Races and how they got that past the authorities.

Still, it was an acceptable risk from where I was sitting.

:ok:

Krueger

19th Sep 2007, 09:41

It looks like the problem was a turn at a too low altitude. Others think the problem was flying over the crowd (which it didn't). And others complained about minimums (altitude) for airshows.
On the videos that I posted, I believe that some are in UK and are well below 100 ft. They show them flying over people and don't seem to be prepared at all (safe the spitfire).
So, it has nothing to do with being an A310. Although I agree with you that this maneuver done on a spitfire or an F-4 as nothing special about it.

For the ones that say that the maneuver is unimpressive, well, quite alot of posts for such anunimpressive maneuver.

Just one word for the moderator that banned a portuguese ppruner from the forum for improprer conduct. I would like to know if calling people idiots, stupid and so on is proper conduct. Well, not in my diccionary.

Check Six Krueger...

slf911

19th Sep 2007, 09:43

First class photo, but can we tell from a still photo whether it shows the aircraft at the very lowest point in the pass?

Perhaps it went lower still at some point.

Immelmann

19th Sep 2007, 09:45

Hi, KRUEGER,

I did enough low passes, wether in Goosebay or an a bombing range, or on a display!
You can not compare these low passes. I did more low passes on skip bombing in one mission than an averag Airline pilot go arounds in one year!!

And I am long enough into Airline business to say, I am not in training for those "combat events" anymore.

BTW, all flyby, displays I flew, there was always a determined minimum height for manouvering!
And if you are a safe pilot, means a good pilot, you STICK to regulations, especially on an airshow.

As we are not finding a consensus - still FOX 3

Instant Hooligan

19th Sep 2007, 09:50

Go check the numerous vids of this on youtube and the photo above does not do "justice" to actually how close the wingtip was to the ground at a point just before the still was taken.
I wonder if the actual pilot seeing these videos thinks it was such a "well executed" move or thinks himself lucky.

md80fanatic

19th Sep 2007, 09:59

146 "professional Pilots" are thinking according to the poll that this stunt was safe!!!
According to some difficult to verify statistics, prior to the mid-1990s, ~80% of commercial pilots were trained in the military. As of 2001, approximately 50% were of military origin.
Extrapolating to 2007, it could be said that roughly 30% might have military roots. The poll numbers of professional pilots only reflects a 25% share to those who thought this manuever was not unsafe. Could there be a correlation?
Civilian flight school graduates might not have a certain measure of "flight by feel" experience, as those with the "Right Stuff" likely do.

Krueger

19th Sep 2007, 10:00

Hi Immelman,

Are you saying that those f-4 low passes are within minimums?

I also did low passes, demos, etc.

I am also in the airline bizz now for too long to fly on an airshow. But I keep on saying that any maneuver within the envelope properly trained can be done safely whether it's an F-4 or a A310.

About the minimums in the UK for airshows, are they in force on the Red Bull Air Race? Or, as they say, Money talks, Bulls#$ht walks...

Finally, Immelman, we agree in disagreeing. Happy Landings.:ok:

And I stick to my guns track, kill...

krueger

Stuck_in_an_ATR

19th Sep 2007, 10:58

Found a very good video on airshows and the the reaction of the spectators - it's in Polish, but I hope you enjoy it :}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCH6n-OGSJA

My point is that the public is generally watching you one eye only, concentrated on eating a hot dog and drinking their beer (especially if you're not an F-16). Had those guys flown 50' higher, the public would have been equally excited... So why risk your life for that?

Cheers!

khawar rashid

19th Sep 2007, 11:08

its just an airshow whats the fuss about :ok:

Snapshot

19th Sep 2007, 11:11

Stuck in an ATR
Awesome mate! Excellent moment with the 'crash and burn' or should that be 'burn and crash' PMSL!
Snaps

Hand Solo

19th Sep 2007, 11:12

Krueger - what do I say to those videos? Well the Spitfire was very impressive! The Tornadoes I'm rather more dubious about as the only indication that they are RAF comes from the titles, added by somebody who can't spell course. There are no idents on the aircraft and nobody in the video is speaking English. Sounds more like German to me, and the Luftwaffe do operate a lot of Tornadoes.

All that is beside the point though as neither of those videos are airshows. The Tornado one looks like a few mil boys doing a beat up of the airfield, there are no crowds of public spectators and I doubt they went to the authorities to get approval for that flypast. The Spitfire would have had approval to do it legitimately, and having flown with someone who is frequently involved in this kind of historical flying for TV they have had to have gone to the UK authorities with full details of the procedure and had it specifically approved. Again, it was a private flypast, not a public airshow. Would they have been permitted to perform the same manouvre in an airliner in front of thousands of spectators? Not a chance.

The Red Bull air race didn't slip through the net either, especially as this years one was in the heart of Londons Docklands, under the approach path to London City airport, beneath the approach path for LHR and watched by 50,000 people. I was there, the aircraft were never on a trajectory that would have taken them into the crowd and despite what you like to imply there is a world of difference between flying an Extra 300 and an Airbus 300. The Extra can safely execute a 20ft banking flypast with margins for error. The Airbus can't, and will make a much bigger hole when it goes wrong.

CS-JMG

19th Sep 2007, 11:19

Have you had access to the taxyway landing investigation report? No? :sad: How can you comment something that you don't know? :=

Captain Sensible

19th Sep 2007, 11:24

As an ex-military pilot with large aircraft display experience, I have to write in to say how strongly I feel about this. So much blood has been spilt over the years because of low level manoevres in both large and small aircraft: crashes as a result of flying that has been unbriefed and unauthorised, or when pilots have deliberately and knowingly broken the rules or display orders, or when pilots have not been competent to fly their machines outside the normal envelope. One of the worst I recall, when I lost a friend, was the Argosy at El Afraq; it was flown straight into a small water tower during an unauthorised beatup with total loss of life, and started to set people thinking about post war "cowboy" mentality that result in normally sane and competent pilots indulging in reckless flying. Then, a few years later, as the support crew to a maritime exercise in NZ, we were in the back of the Nimrod all flying down to Wellington, when, on take off from Whenupai, the pilot, very experienced and senior, without warning or briefing, racked it round in a low level turn over the flight line, a turn that the Navigator Radar calculated by trigonometry left the starboard wingtip about 5 feet off the ground. Near mutiny in the back of the a/c, and all the pilot could say afterwards was that he was "showing the flag", but could not answer how he could possibly judge how close his wing was to the gound in such a low level pulling and rolling turn, and what damage could be done to a large a/c by "rolling G". I've been in a few scrapes in my 42 years of flying, but I have rarely been so angry at the thought of being put at so much risk by a stupid stunt such as this. Low level manoevring is one of the many weapons in the military pilots' arsenal, but, as a manager, I was continually worried about what the junior pilots were up to when away from base, dedicated and very competent young people, whom in wartime we expect to roar around with "their hair on fire", but in peacetime, though training for war, are expected to obey all the rules or else!.
Now, I say all this has a direct relevance to Display Flying. Air Shows used to be primarily military affairs to show off military power, indulge in national pride and entice foreign arms buyers, amongst other things. In later years, more and more civilain a/c joined the show, mainly as a shop window for prospective buyers, but by and large, the slower, the faster, the tighter, the lower, all the better to show off the product and thrill the crowd. But the loss of life in accidents has been unacceptable, and now the rules and regulations governing participating a/c are very, very stringent. We were told at every briefing that the rules are there for the crowd's and our protection, rules that basically lay down the area in which to fly, observance of the "crowd line", and minimum manoevring height, usually 300 ft, sometimes 500 ft.
Generally, yes, display flying, even in a large a/c is very exciting, you're chosen because you can fly well, you're specially trained and thoroughly briefed, and ordered never ever to go outside the profile, or else, again. But there is a small element of risk, because you're flying outside the normal envelope, but the orders and briefings are supposed take care of this. I've mentioned in a previous post the old display adage, "The better it looks to the crowd outside, the worst it probably is inside the cockpit!" I can vouch for this, having been on one display, pushed towards the crowd line by a 25 knot crosswind and tailwind in a low level turn, and my copilot informing me about the angle of bank and low airspeed in no uncertain terms!
Specifically, therefore, having looked at all the video and read the posts, its my opinion that this pilot was totally out of order and wrong to do what he did. He may be the best pilot in the world, (I've flown with a very few who have naturally "good hands"), he may have been briefed and authorised for this show, but not, certainly not, to execute this low level turn clearly well below the display height in a manoevre that broke the law and put the crowd, his crew and himself at risk, just to show off; that's my opinion anyway.

slip and turn

19th Sep 2007, 11:43

Very, very sensibly put Captain, ... said Captain :ok:

Question is, how on earth can 20% of the self declared professional pilots responding to this straw poll be thinking and voting otherwise??

Either
(a) they are not professional pilots at all, or
(b) they are being mischievously not sensible, or
(c) there is a very serious problem in aviation today.

My regards to Croydon ...

Conan The Barber

19th Sep 2007, 12:08

As I was saying, I don't care much for Pontiffs and horses, or Pontiffs on horses, nor public hangings for that matter. So I ticked the I have no opinion box.
..............

Krueger

19th Sep 2007, 12:20

Krueger - what do I say to those videos? Well the Spitfire was very impressive!
Why was it impressive? Because he was flying pretty low, otherwise it was cruise flying. So, I wonder why do you consider this low pass impressive. The same logic applies for the A310.
All that is beside the point though as neither of those videos are airshows. The Tornado one looks like a few mil boys doing a beat up of the airfield, there are no crowds of public spectators and I doubt they went to the authorities to get approval for that flypast.
So, now the problem is being in airshow. An airshow where the crowd is in a specific place, the maneuver is trained and approved. The first video shows F-4 flying over people (being military doesn't disqualify them as crowd, does it?) and the other one, I believe are Harriers doing the same.
The Spitfire would have had approval to do it legitimately, and having flown with someone who is frequently involved in this kind of historical flying for TV they have had to have gone to the UK authorities with full details of the procedure and had it specifically approved. Again, it was a private flypast, not a public airshow. Would they have been permitted to perform the same manouvre in an airliner in front of thousands of spectators? Not a chance.
How do you know that? For one he was flying below the limits right over people (presentator, cameraman, audio guys, etc). Once again you use the logic of being an airshow rather than a private flypast. What's the difference of a low pass of the spitfire (I believed they still don't have radalt) and the A310 (with radalt), and with a birdstrike?
Well, the A310 didn't have any vector toward the crowd, unlike the spit.
The Red Bull air race didn't slip through the net either, especially as this years one was in the heart of Londons Docklands, under the approach path to London City airport, beneath the approach path for LHR and watched by 50,000 people. I was there, the aircraft were never on a trajectory that would have taken them into the crowd and despite what you like to imply there is a world of difference between flying an Extra 300 and an Airbus 300. The Extra can safely execute a 20ft banking flypast with margins for error. The Airbus can't, and will make a much bigger hole when it goes wrong.
I was at the Red Bull in Oporto and they DID had vectors to the crowd, they DID go below 100ft. But I agree with you on the size of the holes. The difference would be place of the holes. One in an open field(Evora) and the other somewhere between 600.000 people (Oporto).

And for slip and turn, are you a professional pilot?
No! I thought so...

Check Six Krueger...

Hand Solo

19th Sep 2007, 12:45

It was impressive because it was evocative - the sight and sound of a legendary aircraft. It was not impressive because it was low. Sorry but I'd rather look at a Spitfire than an A310, just liked I'd rather look at an Aston Martin than a Ford Focus.

The problem is not being in an airshow, the problem is doing daft stunts to show off. The Tornado flypast was pretty risky too, athough I'd imagine those pilots were rather more practiced at low level stuff. I'm not sure what your logic is but you seem to think that if you post lots of vids of people doing similar daft stuff it makes it less daft. No it doesn't, and yes, there is a difference between an unsanctioned dangerous procedure (bad flying) and an officially sanctioned one (worse).

How do I know the Spit would have had his flypast sanctioned? Because if the pilot ever wanted to display the aircraft again he'd better have got it approved or it's the end of his displaying days. I don't use the logic of it being a private flypast rather than an airshow, I use the logic of a small aircraft being far more recoverable than an airliner and much easier to handle at low level. I can judge ground height from a C152 much better than I can from a 747 yet the 747 has a digital rad alt readout. If the Spit hits a bird at that height (less likely due to it's smaller crossection) it might dent the prop but the aircraft could probably be belly landed if need be. If the A310 hits a bird it goes down the number one engine which quits, the aircraft yaws and rolls left suddenly before the pilots react and in goes the wingtip.

Your point about the Red Bull air race in Oporto simply reinforces that the view that there are no sensible air display restrictions in Portugal to protect the public.

To avoid this thread going round in circles please try to understand that displaying a small jet/prop aircraft at low level and displaying a lumbering medium/heavy airliner at that level are not comparable and you won't convince anyone that they are.

slip and turn

19th Sep 2007, 12:51

Krueger it may come as a shock to you, but I don't need to be a pro to know that this manoeuvre turned out to be dangerous.

What do you need to be to argue the opposite ?

Nojwod was wrong to compare this guy with Bob Hoover, but I thought he did describe the second type of pilot quite aptly:...those for whom flying becomes an extension of their own selves and actually 'fly'. Personally I have always found the original equipment to be adequate and the fly remains buttoned in public...

I-FORD

19th Sep 2007, 13:01

Criticise an airshow maneuver basing the comments on an internet video distorted by prospective and telephoto lenses without any clue about flight parameters, airport layout and altimetry, training and qualifications of the crew, performances of the aircraft involved doesn't look very professional to me.

Hand Solo

19th Sep 2007, 13:11

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

There are plenty of videos available from all different angles and it looks too low from all of them.

For Kruegers benefit, here's a video I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJG_YEnaWBs

You'll observe the pylon is much the same height as the A310s flyby, yet it took only a seconds distraction to hit the ground. The recovery manuouvre involved a pull up in excess of 8G, but that option was available and utilised. What sort of G could the A310 get away with if they misjudged this and had ground contact? How rapidly could the flight path be changed once they'd realised things were going wrong?

Ebow

19th Sep 2007, 13:34

I-FORD...bull**** reply if I ever saw one but reading other comments I have to say your in good company.

If a respected airline like TAP want's to show off one of their aircraft then that's fine. If that show off involves low flying a.k.a. low pass than also fine. Now if I were CEO of TAP I'd pretty well make sure that this sort of flying with the TAP-logo would be done in a orderly fashion. Why? Well 'cause:
1. The maneuver would very likely be filmed (and it was!)
2. The film would very likely be judged by everyone (it is!)
3. If the maneuver only has the appearance of unprofessional conduct it would attribute to only one thing…BAD PR!

In my opinion as an ex-military pilot with a lot of low flying experience this show of the TAP A310 was unsafe…no two words about it. Distortion of the video and/or photos…my ass!

How about accountability entering the equation? I believe this to be one of the good virtues a good pilot should have.

Oh…I voted for #1

Regards and lets keep it safe

Krueger

19th Sep 2007, 14:50

Hand Solo, your Red Bull video is not in Portugal and yet, you have a vector towards the public. So, I don't think it's only in Portugal that the rules are bent for Red Bull, wouldn't you say?
You're the only one saying that the spit low pass wasn't impressive, it sure gave the presentator a new haircut (even him wasn't impressed by the sound or the looks of the spit but by it's proximity). And are you sure the CAA was told that it was going to be done just like it was done? Who are you trying to fool?
If the spit had to do a belly landing, the presentator would have no legs at least. The A310 was climbing, has two engines and no public in front of it.
Didn't you ever pratice a reverser unlock at lift off (which is much worse than a birdstrike)? Did you always crash?
So you don't convince the others either. Although I agree with you on prefering to watch spits and Aston Martins than A310 and Ford Focus.

For slip and turn, what I have and you don't is, knowledge of the place, the aircraft, the training they did for it, and in a few days FDR results.
Your knowledge comes from watching YouTube...

For taperlok, grow up and get a life...:mad:

Since I'm getting tired of reading all the winning about, I'm off...
Have a good one, Krueger...

SR71

19th Sep 2007, 14:51

Your point about the Red Bull air race in Oporto simply reinforces that the view that there are no sensible air display restrictions in Portugal to protect the public.

In the UK if I drive my car at 180mph down the road (mine will do somewhat more than that) and I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time, they'll lock me up and throw away the key.

If I drive 6 hrs down the road to Germany, I can do this quite legally. (Thank God for the Germans he says!)

The perception of risk is obviously relative, but who is right and who is wrong?

And who are you to criticize the Portugese DCA just because your opinion is the wing-tip came a little closer to the ground than you'd be comfortable with, or than is allowed in the UK?

Lots of testosterone (or is it oestrogen?) around (good 'ole ex-mil guys!) at the moment and very few facts....

Hand Solo

19th Sep 2007, 15:45

Krueger - the Red Bull video I linked was shot in Monument Valley. I've double checked it and I don't see any vector towards a crowd, plus the video is shot from a professional TV camera which clearly has some zoom on it at the collision point. Are you really suggesting the aircraft could lose control and fly up and onwards to the cameras location?

I don't know if the Spit flew the profile he intended to fly. Even if he did maybe it was unwise, but two wrongs don't make a right and the fact that somebody did it in a single seat aircraft doesn't make it OK to do it in an airliner. Just because the A310 has two engines doesn't mean they can't mess it up. My aircraft has four engines and I've still managed to trigger a bank angle warning in the sim when I've got it wrong. The A310 did a long level flypast. Lose the number one engine as they start that turn and it's goodnight. Perhaps the TAP guys will be lucky never get it wrong or make a mistake.

Anyway I think I'll follow your lead an bow out from this debate as well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Techman

19th Sep 2007, 15:51

The There is insufficient information available to make an informed opinion option seems to be missing from the poll.

It's a shame it has to be reduced to condemn, condone or ehh based on nothing but a few poor quality videos and some stills.

APP Radar

19th Sep 2007, 17:33

The main reason because we're discussing this exibition is because someone tought it was unsafe. That was the first title for the topic not only on this forum but also on other foruns.
I can, still, add some items to this discussion (even thinking they will not change the general impression) ...
I was there and had the opportunity to see the exhibition live. It was impressive and the photos and videos don't make justice to what we saw and felt. The A310-300 made 6 (?) flyby in different configurations and in all respected the (lateral) distance to the public. He (and all pilots) were told no to pass right of runway centerline ... and he didn't.
The one thing the pilots didn't took in consideration was the terrain, the fact that the runway is elevated from the apron point of view. The fact that the majority of public, being on the right side of the runway, didn't realise that on the other side there was also a slope down ...
Was the wingtip close to the ground more than it should ? Perhaps ... Was all the manouvre planned ? Yes, planned, studied and practised ... Was the terrain efect on public accounted for ? No !
I do regret this ever happened. The negative efect caused by this polemic is certainly greater than the positive one caused by having the A310 participating on Portugal Air Show.
But I do not question the pilots capability to handle the plane during allm the exhibition and I will continue to fly not only TAP Portugal as this A310 with this pilots until the retirement of the plane.
Notes
1. The pilots will continue to fly TAP, moving to A330/340 after the phase out of the A310.
2. Not all the videos or photos shown on this topic are related to the flyby where the turn was made.

Captain Sensible

19th Sep 2007, 18:44

Without a doubt, this was a really "cool" bit of flying undertaken by probably a very competent pilot, but that's not the point. There are 2 points here.
Firstly, the name is "Pprune" which stands for Professional Pilots' Rumour Network, a website founded by Danny Fyne, to whom we should all be continually grateful, for the dissemination of knowledge and information for and by professional pilots, and many others in aviation, as the proliferation of Forums has shown. Not only that, however, but the notion is based I believe, on the 2nd World War cartoon character of Pilot Officer Prune, through whose portrayal of bumbling exploits, their "Airships" tried to instill in RAF pilots the notion that Flight Safety saves lives.
Secondly, Pprune is not a Court of Law; what it is is a place where many of us who have knowledge and many years experience in flying can lend our point of view to burning subjects of the day. Not only that, we can judge, and we can do that because we are deemed "experts" in our field. We may be rubbish mothers or fathers, or crap drivers on the M25 in rush hour, or completely louse up cooking an ordinary lasagne, but as "experts" in aviation, our opinion like other experts in medical, engineering - whatever - can be used in a court by the Rules of Evidence. And the "expert" opinion amongst many of us judging this pilot's flying this manoevre, cool, thrilling, daredevil or whatever, was wrong, wrong,wrong,wrong,wrong, and a very bad example to others who think they, having witnessed it, can have a slice of it in their own back yards. As I said, that's my opinion, but I feel very strongly about it. Two books I gave my students to read; one was of course "Handling the Big Jets". The other was Ernest K. Gann's "Fate is the Hunter". In this book, the Preface is preceded by by a Dedication to some 400 named Transport Pilots who lost their lives in the early days of flying, some of whom succumbed because of the same mentality exhibited by this airshow pilot, who was overconfident enough to think he could get away with it. Many of us have got away with it, but many others haven't. The worth of "Pprune" is that, besides being a unique medium for us to air our views, we can all contribute to the ultimate aim of Flying Safely.
(Said enough, retiring now to sofa for post Iftar Ramadan beverage).

GearDown&Locked

19th Sep 2007, 18:52

It's a shame, really is, when we're seing xenophobic comments on this thread being allowed to stay and good professionals being banned just because they were expressing their opinion. I know this is Danny's train set but respect shouldn't be excluded.

I can imagine if this happened at farnborough with a BA plane most people here (if not the same ones present here) would start the classic "journo alert" mantra.

So, knowing what the consequences I'm facing, please allow me to express my own personal opinion. This was intended to display the awsome capabilities of a soon to be retired airliner, not a display of TAP regular airline operations. If the majority here think that it was closer to the edge then yes I believe it was, as ANY airshow display is irrespectively of the plane doing the exhibition. Should we ban airshows worlwide altogether just to be on the PC side of the equation?

What I don't agree with most of you is the fact that a lot of you are extrapolating normal airline operation standards from one single airshow display, giving the notion to the thread readers that Portuguese professional pilots are all macho stuntmen when carrying pax on board, doing all kinds of aerobatics just because it's fun.

Saying that Portuguese pilots are unsafe and the PAX should "Take Another Plane" is an insult. If you're a professional and experienced pilot, you already know who's unsafe up there and what are those callsigns you should be looking for (and avoiding!): the really dangerous everyday situations like busting levels, missing calls, flying well above speed limits, flying poorly maintained planes, etc... I'm sure TAP isn't one of them. You just have to read R&N everyday to have a vague idea of what I'm trying to say here.

As I've seen here stated on some previous posts, true professionals know the difference between wreckless and display attitudes, so I believe that the all this Portuguese bashing either comes from journos looking for blood, or non-professionals.

GD&L:oh:

tubby linton

19th Sep 2007, 19:11

DC8 and a crazy man!
http://www.the-rocketman.com/images/human-fly/Human-Fly-Wing-Walk.jpg

JW411

19th Sep 2007, 19:12

GearDown&Locked:

I presume that your use of the word wreckless was a Freudian slip for reckless?

I don't know enough of the incident (for I was not there and refuse to base an opinion on amateur videos) to make proper comment but one thing that has struck me is the number of politically-correct, humourless, holier-than-thou, never-done-anything-exciting in their lives and generally po-faced contributors that are pontificating on this thread.

I am grateful that I have retired. Sharing a flightdeck with some of you out there must be a very, very boring experience.

hetfield

19th Sep 2007, 19:59

It would be interesting to know what circuit-breakers were pulled to stop the numerous EGPWS warnings that otherwise would have been deafening.

None at all.

Normal approach.

Final 3 Greens

19th Sep 2007, 20:03

Hetfield

Read MJ's comment again.

He's commenting on the clean low fast flyby - normal approach? I don't think so :}

hetfield

19th Sep 2007, 20:08

If you are talking about "Too low Flaps", so what?

They didn't intent to land.

Airbrake

19th Sep 2007, 20:16

Hetfield, do you know anything at all about EGPWS?

hetfield

19th Sep 2007, 20:20

No, I'm a totaly ignorant gpws-person:O

tubby linton

19th Sep 2007, 20:23

My friend Hetfield probably knows more about the A300/310 family than virtually anybody else on here.Sorry to blow your cover!!!

Capt Crash

19th Sep 2007, 20:45

GearDown&Locked said,

'It's a shame, really is, when we're seing xenophobic comments on this thread being allowed to stay and good professionals being banned just because they were expressing their opinion. I know this is Danny's train set but respect shouldn't be excluded.

I can imagine if this happened at farnborough with a BA plane most people here (if not the same ones present here) would start the classic "journo alert" mantra.'

If it was a BA plane at Farnborough I am sure people would make the same comments. No one is being xenophobic and I have been following the thread closely. I am amazed that every Portuguese poster has defaulted to the fact it was an amazing display. If you take the flag carrier factor away any sane professional pilot would say it was too close for comfort.

If I was a manager or shareholder in TAP I would not be best pleased to see such a display in the company's name.

manrow

19th Sep 2007, 21:21

What a pity that any professional pilot should find this acceptable; just shows that being a professional pilot no longer means what it says on the tin.

despegue

19th Sep 2007, 22:15

I have some nice pictures of a Sabena A340 doing a low pass around 30' above the runway , and a Sobelair B767 which, if they would lower the gear, it wouldn't be able to extend completely!:} Both done by some of the best aviators in the industry.

Far too much complaining by people who obviously have nothing better to do.

I agree that the turn was a bit too "riqué" and should have been performed combined with a climb.
The low-pass however is just standard and very well performed.

PIC was the fleet chief by the way.

D&M

19th Sep 2007, 22:19

I think most of what CAN be said about the maneuver, has been said already.

I'd just like to add to the discussion the fact that, despite what has been said about there being no safety margin in the maneuver, I think that margin WAS there.

IMHO, the maneuver was NOT executed 100% according to the plan and the aircraft WAS too close to the ground for that sort of bank.
I'm sure both pilots will look at these videos and will think that it was a good thing the maneuver was planned with that safety margin. Because they actually DID need it. I'm sure they planned the aircraft to climb away quicker than it actually did. Notice the slight correction at 29secs into this following video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dK5VOhKk8s

So, IMHO, the planned maneuver would have cleared the ground by a few more feet than what we actually saw at Evora. The maneuver was planned with a safety margin and both the pilots and the insurance company will be happy to have done so. :ok:

Fg Off Max Stout

19th Sep 2007, 22:39

Aaah, so they had a safety margin, but they used it all (except for a few feet). Quite possibly, but still not a great position to be in.

As for the xenophobia - I couldn't care less what this aircraft has painted on the tail. Regardless of where it's from, I say this was too close for comfort.

barit1

19th Sep 2007, 23:04

It's bad enough in a single designed for great visibility and manuverability. Surrender those attributes, and the operating margin shrinks rapidly.

I wonder what the insurance underwriters have to say about this??

chiglet

19th Sep 2007, 23:17

Mike,
I did...albeit as a "rough" guestimate, 3 Fuselage diameters...Nuff said
watp,iktch

despegue

19th Sep 2007, 23:38

It seems most complainers here are just anally retentive...
Get of your high horses or stay in your nanny state where anything remotely adventurous is forbidden by your H&S.

Mike Jenvey,
The low-pas WAS safe and well executed in my professional opinion, except for the turn, which was indeed performed into the "error-margin". They lived, lessons were learned I'm sure and next time, they will adapt the profile.

Stop whingeing, get in your aircraft and fly.

Plastic Bug

20th Sep 2007, 04:12

Ya Know, being your basic ground pounder, I refrained from calling all you nay sayers a bunch of "you know whats" based on what I saw in the first video of the so called missed approach demonstration.

I didn't see the part where he circled around and, well, buzzed the camera man/person, or so it seemed until this evening.

Maybe if people referenced the particular snip they were looking at (there are titles, not in english, but you can figure it out), things may cool down a bit. I mean, the first example posted didn't look that bad at all. Only when you get curious and start clicking on other links (which are easy to think are the same as the other links these days) do you get an idea that maybe somebody left the reservation for a bit.

The particular video that got my attention was No.2 Pt.2. That's the one after the initial "M/A" where he circles back around dirty for another flyby.

Looked a little squirrely there.

The gear up fly by in another video looked a bit shaky as well, but what do I know? I just make sure that the wings stay on.

Be good folks, and if ye can't be good, don't get caught!

PB

JanetFlight

20th Sep 2007, 06:13

This is the Best Aviation Video i've ever seen in my entire life after the God called Bob Hoover »»»:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk ;)
In Portuguese we Simply Say...."Ganda Malha!!!":D:D:ok:
Cheers and Million Kisses to Everyone Here:ok:

The_Steed

20th Sep 2007, 06:36

It is amazing to see a large jet performing moves like that, but every time I watch the videos I expect it to end with a large smoking hole in the ground. He got lucky.

I once saw a boy racer speed his Corsa the wrong way down a one-way street late at night. He got lucky too and there was no traffic coming the other way. If someone had been though (and he could have been Michael Schumacher for the difference it would make) then the result would have been a smoking hole.

You can't control everything and I'm surprised that the Chief Pilot would put himself, his plane and his crew in such a tight spot. Would there be such support if this was a pilot who was fresh out of school?

Wet Lettuce

20th Sep 2007, 07:02

A lot has been said on this thread about how dangerous that bank was, how close he was, no margin for error. It worked.

Much as been said about how it was planned, trained for, simulated. Great.

It was an AIRSHOW!!! Let us get back to the basics here.

The TAP pilots planned and flew a manouver for 50 hours in a sim that was so low down that only those on the front of the flightline and the "unauthorised" spectators could have seen it?

At an airshow there are at least two things that decide what the display is all about. One, it is safe. Two, the crowd can see it!

That wheels down low pass and bank failed the "can the crowd see it" test.

(check ALL the videos)

(Disclaimer, not a pilot but I once flew a Chipmunk from the back seat for 15 mins while the instructor smoked a pipe....)

ImageGear

20th Sep 2007, 07:19

SLF trash now but been close to a similar situation before. (Not my error)

In my case, the check pilot was well behind the aircraft I was flying and made a sudden, surprise decision that nearly cost me and mine dearly.

The comments regarding this incident are possibly lost on this pilot, he is likely to be leaving aviation soon one way or the other. However the comments are extremely relevant to other drivers who will follow him in doing something on the edge.

Always on balance, I vote with my feet.

Calling for armchair and slippers,

Imagegear

kellirvin

20th Sep 2007, 07:23

Can the pilot see his wing-tip and the ground that far back?

I note that Hoover's wing-tip touched at one point. Too much dust just for the vortex IMHO. No smoking hole.

Is it really feasible that the aircraft would cartwheel if the tip did touch? I would have thought it would have just been an expensive and very embarrassing repair. Oh, and increased insurance premiums.

3Ten

20th Sep 2007, 09:51

I´m portuguese, and presently flying the A310, although not in TAP.

For those who in this forum have been insulting the pilot, calling him idiot, irresponsible, unprofessional and all that, beware: you're the next ones in line to break the face, because you need to think you're better than others and that´s not a good sign.

I know the guy that was flying the airplane, a he's a good pilot, as good as anyone else. Portugal is a small country, everybody knows everybody in aviation, and our standards are very homogeneous, there are not so many ways to trail a career in this country. I guess this shows on our safety record.

HE MESSED UP! That is a fact. This surely hasn't gone as planned. I won't make any considerations on height above ground and stuff like that, this was an air show and it seems appropriate to me. But:

1. Since my early fliyng, I was taught to do this maneuver in the following order: first you pull, then you roll. And in this case it was the other way round, rolled then pulled. I don't realy know how close that wingtip was from the ground, but thath's beside the point. And the airplane was left in a low energy condition for a long time during that turn, hanged by its engines (with those great engines it's very easy). I think he was lucky, gladly. It was not nice to watch this situation, althoug the enthusiasts loved it.

2. In one of the other low passes, gear up and flaps up, maybe slats extended, the aicraft entered a strong dutch roll motion, with a side slip beyond what I thing is acceptable for the situation, too much uncoordinated flight for that height in a jetliner. Dutch roll is not an exclusively high altitude/high speed phenomenon, and the A310 is very much a dutch roll prone acft. This was also not nice to see.

I guess lessons will be learned.

JFA

20th Sep 2007, 10:42

Just because you have an opinion, it does not mean that you are right. This is the bottom line in this thread.

Too many people, who don't know that much about flying, but are enthusiastic about their own opinions, actually believe that this is a
disaster situation. Factually, this is not the case.

The person who started this thread, with this particular title, is defined by being: a complete ignorant in aviation, someone looking for easy fame between his enthusiast peers.

Aviation is about aircraft and flying, not about pictures, videos and opinions about disasters and accidents. People are getting used to peeking into this world, read a few forums, start making opinions and statements without even realizing the enormities they are doing.

You just got to know what you are talking about before speaking about subjects you know nothing more than what you think you see.

People who insult the crew and, in particular, the pilot flying, are just rude and have no education whatsoever. They are those pathetic little people who stand behind a computer writing their frustrations off, without even giving a chance to good judgment. Maybe they are not the blame, upbringing is at a low these days.

I would like to see their act, facing those people that they so emphatically accuse like they know better. I can almost envision them swinging their tails at them, respectfully silent.

Obviously, making the same maneuver at 10000 feet would not seem so close to the ground, but that does not make it any less safe or under control. The A310, under such a light load, is a very agile flying machine, and has a complete different handling experience from the day-to-day operations.

People who are implying the plane carried passengers are ridiculous.

By the way, the quality of the videos seems to be on the low side, but then i am not an expert, i guess people did their best.

Crosswind Limits

20th Sep 2007, 10:52

3Ten

Thanks for that balanced analysis. Having watched the respective videos a few times I would agree with your sentiments. Mistakes were made and hopefully lessons learned. Enough said!

Glass Half Empty

20th Sep 2007, 11:01

Always nice to see the Portugese coming out of the woodwork to defend their own - well done chaps.

Dave Gittins

20th Sep 2007, 11:21

I'm a bit puzzled by JFAs remarks.

As a mere cherokee driver I do not think the manoevers I have seen on the video were safe and appropriate at that altitude.

I know the A310 is an agile aeroplane and fondly remember Gordon Corps at Farnborough with the testbed for the A320 software "throwing" it round the sky. But that was a man who was absolutely a master of his aeroplane and what it could and should do - safely.

(I think Bill Loverseed was at the same Farnborough but that is another story)

To say that the manoever would be no more safe at 10,000 ft is stoopid. I would happily stall my aeroplane at 10,000 but no way would I want to be anywhere near a stall, dragging the aeroplane round on engine power at less than 200 feet.

"Low and Slow .. Lookout below."

AIRWAY

20th Sep 2007, 11:40

"Low and Slow .. Lookout below."

I also learned once: High to low, look out below. :ok:

Beavis and Butthead

20th Sep 2007, 11:51

For the few who are offended by the title of this thread (particularly JFA), I tried to retitle it immediately in response to Foxile's post as I agree that "disaster" is too sensational. I am unable to change the thread title but would appreciate it if the mods will. (now changed to extreme low flying turn - thanks mods)

I found the article of interest and felt that others in the profession would too, whether they think it's a near disaster or a great display.

As for being "a complete ignorant in aviation, someone looking for easy fame between his enthusiast peers.", well thank you JFA ... I guess that goes for Flight International as well who ran the original story.

John Boeman

20th Sep 2007, 12:00

Yes, very well said 3Ten.
HE MESSED UP! That is a fact.
I would say he is on the floor now and has been kicked hard enough and for long enough on this thread (although I am equally sure there will be plenty more wanting to put their boot in).
Despite all those sticking up for him here, I am willing to bet that nobody in TAP is walking up to him and saying "Well done!"
Sure, a lot of his friends and countrymen will try and defend him in public regardless of what they might think privately - is that not normal behaviour, up to a point?

Jet_A_Knight

20th Sep 2007, 12:30

No one seems to have mentioned the rain down-bursts coming out of the dark cumulus (possibly CB??) in the background during the display.

Frankly, I think it was a case of nearly being ' when good times go bad' .

3Ten

20th Sep 2007, 12:59

Despite all those sticking up for him here, I am willing to bet that nobody in TAP is walking up to him and saying "Well done!"
Sure, a lot of his friends and countrymen will try and defend him in public regardless of what they might think privately - is that not normal behaviour, up to a point?

Thats right, John Boeman.

I´m sure he's having his bad time. My simpathy goes to the pilot who's had a bad day, unless I know him and reckon he's an asshole. There aren't many like that. This guy is a perfectly normal guy who unfortunately had a bad day. One day it might be me. There are many good pilots who paid with their lives in days like this, and many others who got away.

TAP is an high standard airline, like many in the world, and I'm sure this issue will be addressed in the proper manner.

ACMS

20th Sep 2007, 13:19

So back a few posts there were those that told us:
-- "it was rehearsed in the sim, he is highly experienced and was well trained for it"
Now they tell us :-- "he had a bad day, rolled before he pulled".....
make up your minds, if he was rehearsed and trained in these airshow maneuvers he wouldn't have made those dangerous mistakes.
mmm
bad day my ass...........he's an idiot.

John Boeman

20th Sep 2007, 13:34

"THEY" haven't said anything different.

One of their fellow countrymen did, that's all. And I just happen to agree with him. He messed up big time (that low level bank - bloody hell!) and I doubt very much that he will be flying any more displays in the near future - just an educated guess.

Now is that OK with you ACMS?

GearDown&Locked

20th Sep 2007, 14:29

Ok, I'll bite.

Well, I have made a commitment to this forum moderator not to break the rules of engagement so I won't use the personal attack approach when replying, but ACMS you're asking for it aren't you?

If anybody from the audience is in any way remotely connected to being an aviation professional, never mind an experienced ATP plane driver, they will make their own minds given the very few facts available, and are fully entitled to express it here in a professional way bearing in mind that it could have happened to them in a similar occasion. Any one who thinks that he's God's gift to professional aviation and he'll never ever make a mistake or a made a bad call (that turns into a close call) without lessons learned then he doesn't belong inside a cockpit, not even in the jump seat.

You ACMS (and the likes) are calling this pilot an idiot. So that should make you what... superior beings?! Oh yeah, sure, I forgot... all pilots are second to God when they handle their stick and rudder. You're probably thinking that your watch is bigger than this unfortunate fellow just because no one would ever thought of calling you to fly at an air show. Now that is a very dangerous way of thinking. I've seen it in several threads here at R&N, and I believe something is missing in the way pilots are trained these days, starting with basic upbringing slash education. That's why CRM had to be invented to deal with these awkward people I guess.

As 3ten have said on a previous post, everybody knows everybody in the business here at Portugal and this is not a simple figure of speech: it's a known fact for a long time for the locals. You can't have a better way of a self-controlled self-regulated "society" than this; a guy is talked about for any given reason and everyone knows instantly who are we talking about; If he's a pr1ck well ...what can I say... he'd better start looking for a job in central Africa or the middle east real quick. Not much of a choice innit.

So don't jump on the guns so fast. Read and learn. Express your educated guess in proper fashion so that we all can learn with the mistakes of others, big or small. You'll never know when your own name appears printed on some sensationalist thread title here at Pprune.

GD&L

fox niner

20th Sep 2007, 16:10

PIC was the fleet chief by the way.
If my chief pilot did that, he would lose his job.
Why?
Simple.
1. He loses credibility amongst the people he is supposed to oversee.
2. Bad publicity
3. Unnecessary
4. last but not least: Dangerous

I am sure the management of TAP is having a great laugh right now, with this video in the public domain.:E

........So actually I am waiting for this guy to get sacked. And this thread will continue to get smeared out until this is the case.

GearDown&Locked

20th Sep 2007, 16:58

Sure F9 ... a guy with an impeccable record makes one single mistake and should be crucified on the spot. I would accept that if you would quit voluntarily your flying job the next time you say to yourself "ooops!" while flying. Solomon's law is rather appealing.

GD&L

despegue

20th Sep 2007, 17:45

F9'er,

your post is appalling to say the least.

Maybe in "your airline" you have a blame and shame culture, but in Modern airlines with a GOOD safety culture, this incident will be thoroughly debriefed, lessons learned and flying resumed.

M.Mouse

20th Sep 2007, 17:58

Fox Niner do you work for 411A?

fox niner

20th Sep 2007, 18:06

Well GD&L, there is a difference in making a mistake (which everyone does on a daily basis) and flying at an airshow like that.

If someone becomes a chief pilot at an airline, you have to realise a few very important things. Of course you need good flying skills, and I am sure that this guy can fly an airplane very well.
But there are also other factors. You become an role model for the rest of the flying corps. You set an example. If you do something very stupid, then you lose your credibility, and your authority as well. And you are from that moment on, unable to do your job. I have seen it happen in my company.

Secondly, I have not seen a link on the TAP internet site to this youtube movie, so I assume they are not too happy with all this publicity. Why? Because it BAD publicity. It looks like those TAP guys are a bunch of cowboys!
Now they are not, they are absolute professionals, but this is what bad publicity is all about. Wrong perceptions. And who is to blame for all this BAD publicity? Yep. Mr. chief pilot at the controls.

Thirdly, as a chief pilot you are expected to go the extra mile for the company. You are more professional than the professionals that you oversee. And that is why a chief pilot can not make grave, grave mistakes without losing his position as a chief pilot.

glad rag

20th Sep 2007, 18:20

You know, all this talk of "xx hours" in the sim just makes the "incident" all the more damning, now it's gone from "the guy made a single misjudgement, the only one in his career" to the public perception of "Hey TAP planned it that way all along!!".......not good.

jet grande

20th Sep 2007, 18:23

This Pilot’s actions were:

1-Premeditated negligence
2-Dangerous
3-Irresponsible

I am sure that when this pilot saw the videos he had shivers down his spine and will have nightmares in the future just imagining what could of happened . He is a LUCKY to be ALIVE .
But, as it was mentioned before, I hope that lessons are learned from this episode.

Safe Landings

diakon

20th Sep 2007, 18:58

An interesting readig is one about a 340 from Iberia hitting the ground with the wing in LESA a few years ago during a test flight and diverting to LEMD causing a rain of metalic pieces meanwhile.
I agree with you, I need margins.

hollywood285

20th Sep 2007, 19:18

Bet he was more glad the port side donkey never quit!!!!

fireballxl5

20th Sep 2007, 20:52

looking at the footage, i would be astonished if the captain hadnt been atleast demoted to the right hand seat!

Ancient Mariner

20th Sep 2007, 21:04

I've been following this thread with great interest. Not because I'm hanging on to every word uttered by the "Trained Aviation Professionals" (TAPs) around here as it pertains to the excecution of the TAP A310 at the airshow, (I happened to think it was great, but what do I know) but because the way some of you judge us SLF.
Bad PR for TAP, umm....no. Most of us are able to differ between an exhibition flight at an air show and being transported from A to B against a paid up ticket. As a matter of fact, how much airing has this event had outside aviation circles? You know, in the media most non-aviators get our news from. Not much and by now I guess mostly forgotten. Keep on slagging your fellow aviator in public, I'm sure he don't mind. In my old profession it would have been considered very bad form.
Per

Flash0710

20th Sep 2007, 21:53

You bunch of shandies......

have you listened to the crowd here....????

it was high energy and over the crowd and all was good....

sing this chaps praises or all just accept flying is now by buttons

lotsaluv

xxxxxx

f

3Ten

20th Sep 2007, 23:26

Now I'm no longer concerned with the TAP pilots actions. I'm concerned with the attitude off some professional pilots in this thread.

This Pilot’s actions were:

1-Premeditated negligence
2-Dangerous
3-Irresponsible

When a pilot writes such words, I guess he's:

1. Asking for the head of a fellow pilot, for some inexplicable reason, that goes against the rising culture in aviation, wich is called "just culture" (you can read Aero Safety World, July 07 for more info). This means that pilots are held responsible for their actions, but will be treated fairly, and will be punished if premeditated. Nobody in this forum is in condition of assessing wether the discussed actions were premeditated. Air safety issues investigation is a serious and very important activity, and is usualy conducted in a way very different from this blood thirsty attitude. Probably, these guys have been smacked a bit, either in the sim, in the cockpit, or in life, and are looking for a bit of revenge. OR;

2. These guys realy believe in those ideas, and thats worse, because nobody thinks of himself as a Premeditated Negligent, Dangerous or Irresponsible, and this means that they must realy believe that those things can't possibly happen to them. OR;

3. They are realy good, and if that's the case, from now on I'll try to be like them. But remember that a KLM's chief pilot took off without clearence at Los Rodeos, and unfortunately didn't have the chance to get the sack. He also wasn't good enough. I'm not making excuses for the TAP guy, I think I made my position very clear that I didn't like what I saw. I'm just wondering why the hell such unrelyable pilots have been appointed for those jobs, when one can easilly find a fair number or genial pilots in this forum.

This topic is making me sick, so long!

Chuck Ellsworth

21st Sep 2007, 03:50

Regardless of who it was the airplane banked before starting to pitch up very close to the ground....far to close to the ground to begin to bank before starting to pull up......in my humble opinion.

BEagle

21st Sep 2007, 07:01

Agree with you Chuck!

Even though I was never a display pilot, if showing off the jet when departing from somewhere, my rule of thumb was never to have more bank than pitch below 500 ft aal on take-off - and make everything smooth. The aircraft looked much more graceful in a 15 deg climb with 15 deg AoB in any case..... Gently pitch and roll to 15/15, then roll gently out on departure heading and keep climbing. Didn't break any rules or hazard anyone.

Racking into a low level turn before climbing away, as seen in the A310 video, is highly dangerous. Period.

puddle-jumper2

21st Sep 2007, 08:12

We all make mistakes.........Anyone who says he doesn't make mistakes is a liar. You make them, learn from them and move on.

By the sounds of it this TAP Chief pilot was chosen to do the 'airshow' because he was very good. Then comes display day ..........oops ! He makes a mistake.:eek:

Unfortunately there is a difference between the KLM incident and this incident. The simple difference is the KLM Chief pilot did not practise in the sim how close he could leave it before applying full power and just clearing the other 747 on the runway !!:sad:

When most of us make mistakes we have a safety net underneath us, sometimes on very rare occasions that net doesn't catch us :( but what we don't do is considerably reduce the size of the net.:=

Perhaps next time he should use one of those Portuguese fishing nets.:}