Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial [Archive]

seafuryfan

7th Sep 2007, 20:53

The thread on the unfortunate Belize accident (hope you're ok guys) prompted some memories by Ppruners of the Puma accident at Salamanca, Belize, which claimed the lives of 8 UK military personnel.

Lt Alister McKillop QOHLDRS
Cpl Matthew Glasgow QOHLDRS
Cpl John Reardon RAF Odiham
SAC Colin Egan RAF Regt
Flt Lt Tony Long 230 Sqn RAF
Flt Lt Roger Whitley 230 Sqn RAF
MALM Christopher Bolam 230 Sqn RAF
Sgt Nigel Storey 230 Sqn RAF

To support BATSUB in its essential work-up programme for elements of the British Army, A regular Puma detachment, comprising of aircrew and groundcrew of 33 and 230 Sqns, has renewed its acquaintance with Belize in recent years.

The Puma det organised a visit on 26th March 2007 to view the Salamanca memorial, restore it as required, and hold a short service of rememberance for our departed brothers.

The local townsfolk were very helpful in clearing the site with the military ground party, and the accompanying photos show some of the activity before and after the memorial service. I'm sorry I don't have pictures of the service itself, as I was in the congregation. Perhaps other attendees may have more photos?

Please be assured that the personnel who lost their lives at Salamanca have not been forgotten. The memorial will be visited when we are in Belize to remind the current generation of past sacrifices, and to ensure it remains in a respectable condition.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/seafuryfan/Belize0703043.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/seafuryfan/Belize0703041.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/seafuryfan/Belize0703025.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/seafuryfan/Belize0703015.jpg

Airborne Aircrew

7th Sep 2007, 21:07

I vaguely remember the memorial...

My brain isn't helping me. Is the memorial actually at the crash site or is it within Salamanca itself? I ask because I recall the crash site in high trees yet the pictures you published have no high trees.

Just trying to get my "bearings"... Been almost 20 years since I was last in Belize...

seafuryfan

7th Sep 2007, 21:17

I don't know about where the accident actually occurred, but on the air to ground photo the memorial is located within the tapered green rectangle, 2/3 to the right.

Airborne Aircrew

7th Sep 2007, 21:30

Ok... Then the crash site is probably out to the left of the air photo on the track that makes up the bottom of your tapered rectangle.

It's wierd, I can picture, Rideau, Holdfast, Gallon Jugs, APC, Hunting Caye, San Pedro airstrip etc. etc. etc. but for some reason, despite clearly remembering staying there for a few nights, I can't picture Salamanca even with the photo right there in front of me.

Green Hat/Yellow Hat

7th Sep 2007, 22:19

What a pity it fell into disrepair. The memorial was always well tended by the 1563 boys and the Army chaps at Salamanca. I can remember dropping off a couple of guys during a BGS in '85 to repaint it and tidy up.

Wasn't it quite adjacent to the Tiswas refuel point?

Tigs2

8th Sep 2007, 01:27

I remember Salamanca well. Sorry the site was in disrepair. We should still be there. The cheapest low level, hot and high training the SH force ever had!!

RIP chaps

A Fellow Tiger

P-Bolam

6th Aug 2008, 17:51

My name is Paul Bolam and my father was killed at Salamanca, Belize in the Puma crash 1976. While searching the web as I regularly do looking for any information on the death of my father C.A.Bolam 230 Sqn I found these notes about the Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial.
I know very little about what happened ref the helicopter crash. In fact the information on the PPrune thread has told me where it happened and just seeing the jungle and area it happened has been a missing piece for me. If anyone else has any more information no matter how small it seems to you would be very gratefully received.
All the best

Paul Bolam
[email protected] ([email protected])

Airborne Aircrew

6th Aug 2008, 20:43

Paul:

I responded to your PM before seeing this thread, (again), and now I am wondering how little you know of the circumstances of the crash. I believe more about the crash was discussed in another thread here but, as mentioned here by me and in my response to your PM, that may be the fuzzyness of an old mind... :\

seafuryfan

6th Aug 2008, 23:02

Hi Paul,

Search for 'Salamanca' in the pprune toolbar and you'll find some posts with contributors from 230 Sqn around the time your Dad was serving, as well as some good background stuff on the life out there.

There may also be some old multi-engine drivers around from the sixties who might have known him before he went helos.

What about placing a new thread asking for info, as the truckies out there might not click on a helicopter thread.

Regards and good luck,

SFF

ShyTorque

6th Aug 2008, 23:09

Paul, My commiserations.

I was in Belize for the first time in 1979. From what I remember of Salamanca, looking at the second photo, I think the memorial is just about where the aircraft came down. I was shown the accident site early on in my time there and we found some small electrical components still in the bushes. There was no memorial in those days but we paid our respects to lost colleagues (I didn't know them personally because I didn't join the RAF until 1976).

I believe there was a raised landing pad just to the left of the memorial in that same photo and at the time the undergrowth was quite a lot thicker in the area. We used to land on the pad routinely under the directions of our crewmen to locate the wheels as we couldn't see the pad from the cockpit when correctly placed over it. It was really too small for a Puma; it was designed for smaller, skidded aircraft such as the Scout.

I think the accident occurred on takeoff. An engine failed, the rotor RPM drooped and the alternators tripped off line. This caused the autopilot to drop out, destabilising the aircraft, which had insufficient power on the remaining engine to fly away. The pilot had no option except to attempt a landing back on the pad. Unfortunately the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad and crashed a few metres back from it. All on board were lost.

The Pumas electrical system was modified after this accident. The normal main rotor speed (Nr) limits were 258 to 272. If the Nr dropped to 240 for 2 seconds, the alternators tripped off. The system was modified to remain on unless the Nr dropped to 220. I hope those figures are correct, it's been over 14 years since I flew the Puma and I'm relying on my memory, not written notes.

I remember Salamanca and that helipad for two reasons. I once had to divert there due to very bad weather at our destination at Rideau. The field between the helipad and the hill, in those days a football field, was flooded because the river at the rear of the hill had broken its banks and was flowing round both sides of it. We waded across through about 18 inches of water to get to the HF radio room at the top of the hill, in order to contact HQ and inform them of our whereabouts. As I was about to enter the radio room via the steps, a Ghurka soldier loudly shouted "STOP". I paused mid step, to see a large snake under my instep. It had been in the radio room and was coming down the steps. I very narrowly avoided treading on it. I was later shown it after they killed it - it was a very big Fer-de-lance. Had the Ghurka not shouted I would probably have been bitten. The nearest medical treatment was in Florida; no one else could fly the heli so I would probably not have survived.

The second thing that happened to me there was a total loss of hydraulic fluid in one of my Puma's hydraulic systems. It blew out via a fractured flexible pipe on the nose undercarriage leg (the contents of the manual reserve can had also all gone, according to the engineers). As we took off there was a loud bang, followed by vibration, strong smelling oil fumes and more loud noises from the transmission. I thought it was the main gearbox breaking up and briefly thought about dumping the aircraft in the trees. I resisted the temptation (the accident site was quite strong in my mind) and flew a very tight circuit back to the helipad. The loud noises up top reduced slightly but increased again as I lowered the undercarriage. We still thought it was the main gearbox until after shutdown when we spotted the full length underside of the aircraft dripping hydraulic fluid. The noise was the hydraulic pump cavitating due to loss of fluid.

Had we not got the gear down and locked before the system emptied (I was trained to be very quick to lower it in an emergency) we would have been forced to do a wheels up landing at our destination at Rideau. This would have been very awkward due to the very poor ground and similar small raised helipads there. We had very little fuel left, as it happened and there was no facility for a refuel in the hover at either HLS.

Tiger_mate

7th Aug 2008, 07:30

The most exclusive airline in the world.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/2740225247_c15a19e32a_o.jpg
Puma at Salamanca circa 1987

XW233 c/n 1205 itself written off 27 Nov 92

ShyTorque

7th Aug 2008, 07:39

That brings back some memories! The accident site was to the right of this photo, out of shot.

Airborne Aircrew

7th Aug 2008, 12:29

Now I'm really confused... which is probably all my fault.

In the mid 80's when I walked around the crash site it was in the jungle/forest itself about 10-15 yards off a track on the left hand side. While I have to own up to almost zero recollections of Salamanca until a few minutes ago I seem so clear about this in my mind.

So I started digging... The first thing I did was to try to find a satellite photo of Salamanca to try to reorient myself. Salamanca, (which seems now to be Salamanca Forestry Camp), is at N16.281 W89.022, (In Google Earth enter 16.281 -89.022). Google Earth etc. only have very low res. images of that region but it did, immediately, jog my memory as to where it was and the road running through it.

I did some more digging and found some photographs of Salamanca in the 80's. One particular picture stood out. It was uploaded a by a chap calling himself Oaksey who seems to have been a refueller. The picture is of his refuelling hut, the two pads and the road running away into the jungle.

http://www.apm-home.net/archive/files/myrefuelinghut.jpg

Now, I might be wrong but my memory says that just past the very last palm trees on the left side of the track/road where it disappears are the high trees where the aircraft came down. I do clearly remember the high trees and the low undergrowth that covered much of the small pieces of the wreckage that were never removed.

What confuses me is the location of the memorial in the photo. My mind tells me that, unless there was a lot of cutting back of the trees, the memorial is some distance from the actual crash site.

Can anyone help an old man's fading memory... Because I have very clear memories of so many other places but, for some reason, Salamanca is all gone.
http://www.apm-home.net/archive/files/myrefuellinghut.jpg

Tiger_mate

7th Aug 2008, 15:48

This photograph (taken at the same time as my last one) would have been to the 10 oclock of the previous one. To add to the confusion, I thought I had my back towards the crash site. Note typical internals of propane gas, batteries and water and petrol all together, we were nails in those days!!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/2741830410_3723dfed01.jpg

Airborne Aircrew

7th Aug 2008, 16:03

'Ard as nails... Are you saying they don't allow such "creative" shipping nowadays? How on earth would anyone fight a war?

Your supposition that your back was to the crash site would confirm my thoughs. If you look at your two pictures and then at Oaksey's showing his hut you were standing to the right of my picture looking straight across the landing pads in the first and then you approached the aircraft and turned to your left to show the scene from the LP's point of view. The fact that you never see the 2nd LP or the refuelling hut confirms that.

If my guess at the location of the crash site is correct then it was in about your 4-o-clock when you took your second picture.

The question I have now is, (because I'm still not oriented), where is north in any of these pictures. I believed the crash site was where the road left the camp to the north but now I'm unsure . I'm trying to determine the orientation of the high overhead picture in the first post too but there have clearly been changes and I have no point of reference at the moment. :confused:

Tiger_mate

7th Aug 2008, 16:11

I think that the pads used to be in the centre of the 'race track' in the top left quater of the first photo on this thread orientated parallel to the track that runs from the camp towards the 9 oclock.

I also believe that the crash site is central top on the same photo, beyond where a large(ish) but isolated building can be seen.

It has been twenty years though, and A_A: you probably briefed me in the first place as to the location!

P-Bolam

7th Aug 2008, 20:53

Hello Gents,

Thanks for taking the time to respond, it has taken me aback to read the comments and see the photos. After advice from you guys I have applied to join the 230 Sqn Ass today so I hope to be accepted and that this will open up some more doors to help me find information.
I have also found out there is a memorial at Odiham which I would like to see so I will write a letter to 230 Sqn and see if it is possible for my mother and brother to visit.

Thanks again everyone.

All the best

Paul.

seafuryfan

7th Aug 2008, 21:07

Hi Paul,

I've found the thread which I think Airborne Aircrew refers to. It's actually (originally) about the recent unfortunate AAC Bell 212 accident in Belize but the Salamanca accident is also discussed in some technical detail. Here's the link in case you did not manage to read the whole thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/military-aircrew/291188-bell-212-crash-belize.html

Regards,

SFF

PS: AA, IIRC, the first photo is taken on about 070.

Airborne Aircrew

8th Aug 2008, 13:55

Seafury:

Thanks for the heading... With that piece of info, my memory, Tiger Mate's and Oaksey's photographs and the information in this post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/military-aircrew/291188-bell-212-crash-belize-2.html#post3531816)I think I have my orientation.

ShyTorque stated that they thought the aircraft was in a high hover and, upon experiencing the failure, attempted to move backwards back over the pads. Looking at Oaksey's and Tiger's pictures his theory doesn't make sense. The distances to trees are too great in all directions for a rearward drift to have ended up in the trees. The high hover makes some sense since it was a night takeoff but, unimpeded by trees, even without any automated stabilization I don't see the aircraft coming down any way other than properly oriented, (limited divergence in pitch and roll). I then find it difficult to see it killing everyone in these circumstances. Pax and ALM maybe, but the pilots would be comparatively well protected. I'm not saying it's impossible - it just seems unlikely.

Looking again at the photos and the post pointed to by Seafury it does seem more reasonable that the aircraft was in transition when the failure occurred. I speculate, (because I can't find any accident reports anywhere), that the aircraft had reached a high hover over the pad and had begun to transition, losing a little height as it did so and looking for the SSE speed. Oaksey's photo shows that the distance to the higher trees from the closest pad is only 70 or so yards which, with a fairly heavy a/c, would pretty much preclude it from having reached SSE speed. I'll further speculate, (and no - I wasn't a pilot - but I flew with one once... :E), that once the failure occurred and it all went dark that the pilot would have a tendency to try to keep the collective high because he knew there were trees ahead making reattaining an Nr within limits very difficult. He didn't have a choice really... he's losing altitude with a massive shortage of power which, in an obstacle free environment, _might_ have been recoverable from. But the combination of a heavy aircraft, with a high density altitude, in transition, with limited power, high trees ahead and a thoroughly disorienting environment, (we all can remember how dark dark can be in Belize), conspired to make this an utterly unrecoverable situation.

Once the fuselage began to contact the trees it would add to any drag and serve to "pull" the aircraft down and once a tip or possibly the tail rotor struck something substantial it was all over. In the trees the aircraft would most certainly diverged in pitch, roll and yaw causing the much less survivable scenario that clearly occurred.

This gels more closely with those of us who remember, (some quite clearly), being under the canopy while "exploring" the wreckage and is all quite reasonable and logical remembering the way we used to operate.

I have made the diagram below to attempt to clear this all up and help others get better oriented.

http://www.apm-home.net/archive/files/salamancadiagram.jpg

The X and the Y are the approximate locations of Tiger_mate when he took his two pictures. The X is the picture of the Puma and was taken facing almost due west and the Y was the location of the second picture taken facing about 200 degrees hence his feeling that the crash site was behind him. Had Oaksey been there when Tiger took his picture he would have appeared in the first shot, within the rotor disk directly in front of the Puma. The crash site would be around the area of the large red circle. and the green line is the extent of the higher trees in the air photo provided by Seafury. Looking at the various pictures from the time and the air photo by Seafury it seems that the trees have neither encroached further nor been cut back much from their 1970/80's extent so the crash site is just out of shot on the left side of Seafury's air photo just below where the two tracks come together and, in Oaksey's photo it would have been in the region of the bushy treetop directly above where the track disappears.

As I have said several times, this is my "best guess", based on memories, other people's observations, a recollection of how we operated and what therefore seems logical and reasonable. I'm absolutely open to correction.

ewe.lander

8th Aug 2008, 14:52

Hi Paul,

I was a Loadie on the crew that handed over to your Dad and Nige Storey - both top top men. We then departed to UK, after the crash we went to the funeral (I was pall bearer for Nige) then we went straight back to Belize to help the detachment out. Morale was through the floor for a while - but 230 always was a strong squadron and we got on with things. It took a while to restore confidence again in the dear old Puma, but we got there.

Long time ago but as you stood on the track looking up at the 'Attap' huts the crash site was down to the right. The Puma took off to the left from that position, it was assumed at the time it suffered a single engine failure which at the time would have presented the 2 Pilots (also thoroughly great blokes) with auto pilot out, half lighting and various electrical snags. they apparently turned downwind right and attempted to put the Puma back on the deck. Salamanca was in a 'bowl' feature and extremely black, the rest become assumptions - suffice to say we lost great men that night.

I was proud to work for your Dad Paul - a bloody good man. Best regards, Ewe :ok:

Globemeister

8th Aug 2008, 23:14

Anyone ot a date for the Annual reunion in the Smoke this year?

ShyTorque

8th Aug 2008, 23:41

ShyTorque stated that they thought the aircraft was in a high hover

No, I don't think I used the phrase 'hover' at all. Single engine safety speed could be as high as 50 knots or so in those conditions.

I think the accident occurred on takeoff. An engine failed, the rotor RPM drooped and the alternators tripped off line. This caused the autopilot to drop out, destabilising the aircraft, which had insufficient power on the remaining engine to fly away. The pilot had no option except to attempt a landing back on the pad. Unfortunately the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad and crashed a few metres back from it. All on board were lost.

Airborne Aircrew

9th Aug 2008, 11:46

Shy:

Sorry. I took the phrases "on take-off" and "the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad" to mean that you thought they had not yet begun to transition. I interpolated a "high" hover since it was a night take-off towards trees so the initial lift tended to be higher than the standard 10 to 15 feet and may have been as high as 50.

The point I was making is that I didn't believe the crash site was where the memorial is today as someone had stated. For it to have crashed there, bearing in mind the now known location of the landing pads, would have meant that it would have, most probably, experienced the failure in the hover over the pads.

Again, sorry. My "twisting" of your words was an innocent interpolation.

ShyTorque

9th Aug 2008, 14:02

AA, no worries.

Having looked at the later photos posted here, I now think the memorial is probably on the other side of the track from the actual accident site (I mean the track through the middle of the camp by the footy pitch).

I'm not sure if the second, wider track (from where the earlier photo was taken) was actually there in my time in Belize, the whole camp area from the aerial shot appears bigger than I remembered it. Sorry for any confusion caused - it was over 26 yrs ago in my case and dementia has probably now set in. :\

Mushroom_2

9th Aug 2008, 18:16

Are these of any use. They were taken in 1979.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/2747466388_4afa8b27d6_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/2746632269_40760b4343_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2747466166_d9f6224021_o.jpg

Airborne Aircrew

9th Aug 2008, 21:37

Shy:

It seems quite clear, (to me anyway), that the memorial is towards the left side of your first picture. I say that because, when compared with your second picture, the long building higher on the hill is clearly identifiable in both. The square is the memorial, the rectangle is the long building and the arrow is the direction the picture was taken, give or take a few degrees. :}

http://www.apm-home.net/archive/files/salamanca%20pov.jpg

In fact, with all our failing memories, I think that the memorials location is the least difficult thing to deal with... :sad:

Mushroom:

Nice pictures... They confirm that the treelines really haven't changed - which in some ways surprises me yet in other ways doesn't. Either way i find it somewhat amazing...

The second two of them are at height, clearly from an aircraft. Can you remember the circumstances? (Coming in to land, taking off, which door, front seat - left or right). It would help me confirm my recollections that ladings/take-offs at Salamanca were almost always North/South oriented with the predominance being South to North. That would go a long way to placing the crash site where I believe it is... or not - which is fine too.

PS: I'm stealing copies for my personal collection - if you don't mind. :ok:

Mushroom:

Never mind... as I was "stealing" the pictures I noticed the rotor blade in the top right of the first picture... They are a series taken as the aircraft took off and transitioned away from Salamanca. You were in the left door. The aircraft had landed from the south and was taking off towards the north. While not being statistically significant as far as sample sizes go it doesn't really prove anything but it helps a lot where old memories are concerned. Thanks... :D

ShyTorque

9th Aug 2008, 22:21

AA, Yes, I do agree that the accident site was in the treeline to the left of the picture you have annotated with the arrow, approximately in the position you marked with the red circle on your diagram.

I had mistakenly thought the photo of the memorial was taken from the track adjacent to the football field and the refuel hut, rather than the second outer track because former can't be seen in the photo of the memorial.

Mushroom_2

10th Aug 2008, 08:48

Airborne,

Yes you spotted the a/c must have been taking off. Not sure why I was in the left seat - I thought we never flew 2 pilots there? Maybe I was giving a guided tour to someone new.
Amazing how the memory fades.

Help yourself to the pictures - they are resized from larger tiff's. PM me if you need the originals.

seafuryfan

10th Aug 2008, 11:12

Good work gents.

Yes, the memorial is where the arrow points to in the most recently posted photo.

We parked 2 Pumas on the track to the 2 o'clock of the memorial, as you view it on the photo. We approached from the north along the line of the track and departed to the south.

Airborne Aircrew

10th Aug 2008, 11:13

Not sure why I was in the left seatCan't recall what we called them, (probably some kind of "famil"), but the first flight in country was usually the first BGS, (Battle Group South), on the Friday after your arrival in Belize. Unless you had numerous tours under your belt your first trip was always accompanied by a pilot who had been out there for a while or the local crewman leader you were the crewman.

Perhaps you were the pilot accompanying a "new chap".

Another possibility is that by looking at the quality of your pictures I'd guess they weren't taken on the standard "happy snaps special". One could surmise you were a bit of a photo buff and simply went along for a ride and to take some pictures.

Tiger_mate

10th Aug 2008, 13:32

Arrive wednesday.

Stay awake as long as possible. 'Aided' with copius ammounts of alcohol, which made you want to sleep even more. Get up at stupid oclock on thursday, (Body clock caption illuminated) followed by (RNF to a field T) night flying on your first in theatre sortie thursday evening. A local area famil thurs pm may have included laying and switching on the said "T".

Cacking yourself recovering the T before departure because everything in Belize bites or stings and it all appeared to have made the night lights its new home.

IIRC BGS was completed on the first monday after arrival, thus giving a few days and a Journeys End trip before undertaking one of the best tasklines of any SH aircraft, anywhere, anytime.

R 21

10th Aug 2008, 14:06

Anyone ot a date for the Annual reunion in the Smoke this year? Puma Reunion

Last Friday in Nov same place same time same hangover the next day but just that little bit worse!!

St Johns Wort

10th Aug 2008, 18:18

Tiger Mate

Dont think it was called RNF in those halcyon days of yore. Was'nt it just lovely old fashioned NF? A night sun approach into Cadenas Bottom was a bit 'A' Level as I recall.

I remember putting those T's out at 'No Name Airstrip' I swear I could hear things slithering in the grass.

ewe.lander

10th Aug 2008, 18:59

We did fly 2 pilots in Belize. We flew 1 Pilot 1 Crewman in UK and other places but in Belize in 76 it was definately 2 Pilots - I had the honour to be with Lex Brown & John Neighbour - both top bananas. In UK we Crewmen had a ball until the dreaded Nagivators turned up........

Stood me in good stead though, Tony Bolam taught me everything I know about........:}

Punchrock

21st Sep 2009, 15:43

Paul, I just visited the graves at Odiham for the first time today, its only taken me 33 years to find SAC Colin Egan, I was also on 230 Sqdn on the Regt Flight, my detachment at that time was NI whiles Colins was of course Belize. I never knew what happened as far as the funerals were concerned. Strangely I always thought that Colins family didnt want a military funeral so I assumed they buried him locally, he was originally from Romford I think. Anyhow, I just wanted to say I knew your father as well and Nigel Storey a couple of nice guys who kept up the banter when they wanted a 'Rock' to do something for them. I wasnt a best buddy with your Dad or anything like that, is just that it says volumes that I can picture Colin, Nigel Storey and your dad as if it was yesterday, whereas I can hardly remember any of the other Regt Lads at all. If there is a memorial at Odiham itself. I wouldnt mind seeing it either , if you are successful can you drop me a line? Maybe they have open days. My Email is [email protected] (it looks wrong but is right)

best regards

Chris.,

Punchrock

21st Sep 2009, 16:34

Life is a series of Odd coincidences, I was serving on 230 at this time, by strange coincidence, a guy that works for me periodically says that he was in the Army over there at the time and he says the aircraft crashed about 300 yards into the Jungle. They had to dig the wreckage out. He may have just been generalising but I will ask him when he next comes in. They did take a while to sort things out after the crash, in my experience elsewhere stuff does get scattered. It does sound as though she went in pretty hard. I worked with 72, 33, and was actually on 230 sqdn, they were great times although morale was low due to rubbish wages, the Conservatives sorted that out with big pay rises, sadly I had already signed my notice by then.

ewe.lander

21st Sep 2009, 17:14

Hi Paul, Sorry I've not got in contact recently, I'm presently doing my 'Borat' impression in Kazakhstan! Think I've uncovered the photos of Bolam senior trying to look serious at a pre-flight briefing at Odiham in '75.

Punchrock, we served on 230 together, no it's not Woolley or McCardle, but the other young Loadie who was always in trouble......:}

charliegolf

21st Sep 2009, 20:23

the other young Loadie who was always in trouble......

And this narrows it down how, exactly?:)

CG

P-Bolam

21st Sep 2009, 20:39

Hi Ewe.lander I'm sorry I'm not sure of everyone's pprune names but I think this is Al? sorry if I'm wrong.
Good to hear from you again and hope you are having a good time in Kazakhstan. Yes would be good to get any photos you have found, I'm really grateful you have carried on looking :-)
Cheers
Paul
[email protected]

Punchrock

22nd Sep 2009, 16:05

As CG says that cuts it down how? but you know these days I have trouble remembering my own name let alone all you guys! Now faces, thats different I look in the mirror every morning and yes its still me. I might stand a chance or remembering if you have a pic around those days., were you the loadie who put the fire out, when the wind blew a flare fired from a very pistol straight into the back of a Puma at Basingbourne? No I think that was Pauls dad, well anyway if you have a pic post it somewhere and i will see if the little grey cells remember your boat race.

Happy to talk about those times when I wasnt pissed, despite the fact some of the best occurred when i was!

Best regards

Chris, (Punchrock)

ewe.lander

22nd Sep 2009, 18:13

Hi Paul & Chris, Yes it's Al Hudson.

Paul, I've sent you a pic of the Det at APC the week before the crash, Tony & Nige hadn't arrived then but Colin Egan & Rog Whiteley are on the Pic. Feel free to put it on here, I remain a techno-retard.......

lsh

22nd Sep 2009, 20:32

Al, you mentioned "Funkeltrumpets" name - cost you a crate I believe!!
He is coming to the 230 Sqn associations reunion next month - interesting!
lsh

ShyTorque

22nd Sep 2009, 21:55

But - surely there's no "F" in it; I'm sure I heard him say that in the crewroom at Odiham in 1979 or '80.

(One woof for yes, two for no).

Punchrock

23rd Sep 2009, 06:39

Yes I remember now, but now I know I am getting old, I can see Carl and Kev Johnson from the Regt Flight, but I cant make out Colin, maybes its because he wouldnt have worn his Denison smock which I associate him with

regards

Chris.

P-Bolam

25th Sep 2009, 18:41

Gents,

Attached is the photo sent from Al H showing the XW230 Heli which was involved in the crash. Hopefully this will bring back some good memories as well.
Thank you Al.

Regards

Paul.

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt348/paulbolam/belize76.jpg

mick egan

30th Mar 2011, 18:56

hi paul hope you dont mind me replying to your ad my name is mick egan my brother colin was also on that helicopter with your dad, my family have been trying for years to contact people & talk about what happened i was only 10 when it happened, and i found this site and read about your dad being in accident and that you were also trying to find some information

mick egan

30th Mar 2011, 19:08

hi punchrock my name is mick egan, i colin egan,s baby brother just wondering if anybody could tell me what he was really like as i didnt see alot of him as i was only 10 when he was killed

Punchrock

30th Mar 2011, 19:09

I served with your brother, he taught me 'hookups' with the Pumas.
We were both on the regiment section of 230 at the time.
I'm happy to chat about those times.

regards

Chris.

Punchrock

30th Mar 2011, 20:20

Mick, feel free to e-mail me [email protected] (looks wrong but is right)

regards

Chris.

mick egan

31st Mar 2011, 13:51

hi chris, thanks for getting back to me i appreciate it & my mum will be pleased that i can finally chat to somebody that served with colin who also has very good & nice things to say about him.i have took down your e-mail address & will contact you soon. thanks again chris.

mick egan

9th Apr 2011, 18:59

hi ewe lander hope you dont mind me contacting you but i,ve just recently joined the forum, just trying to find out information on the crash and talk to anyboby who knew my brother colin egan.

keith egan

11th Apr 2011, 18:44

Hi Paul
I have a copy of this photo My Brother Colin is 2nd one standing up front row from the one sitting down
Regards
Keith

Al R

12th Apr 2011, 10:11

Keith, Mick..

Welcome. If you want to find out more about Colin, try here:

RockNet, the Headquarters of the RAF Regiment Network • Index page (http://www.hqrafregiment.net/index.php)

If Colin served on 2 Sqn, you'll see there is a Sqn area just for anyone who served on that particular sqn. However, it might be best to start off here.

RockNet, the Headquarters of the RAF Regiment Network • View forum - Remembrances * (http://www.hqrafregiment.net/viewforum.php?f=48)

Good luck - you'll get a warm welcome I'm sure.

Al.

keith egan

12th Apr 2011, 15:39

Hi Al
Thanks a lot of security check on this site but will get there in the end.
Regards
Keith

Al R

12th Apr 2011, 17:02

.. it might help if you post the backlink to here, to give your story a bit of colour. I never knew Colin, but I served on a Puma Sqn so I knew of him, and the accident. Your photograph has the look and feel of one from decades before, the captured looks, the goofing around and the stories behind the people - time passes, but nothing really changes eh?

Per Ardua, and I hope you find out lots.

keith egan

2nd May 2011, 20:31

Hi all
just to let you no the MOD have turned down our request for the next of kins to be awarded The Elizabeth Cross and Memorial Scroll on the grounds it was a training accident i have now been informed it was not and was inform night flight over the jungle were a no no at the time
i was told Sgt Matthew Glasgow Queens own highlanders fell ill and was medi-vacced by vehicle to salamanca he arrived late evening his condition deteriated and it was decided to fly him to airport camp that evening which made this flight an unusual occurrence.
do you or anyone you know
1 tell me the rules on night flights at the time
2 was Colin on operations and active services
may i ask you to post this for me

Regards
keith

Fareastdriver

3rd May 2011, 18:41

1 tell me the rules on night flights at the time

I was in Belize in the spring of 1976 and 1977 and I was unaware of any restrictions on night flying with the Puma. Most of the night flying was training with a fair amount of Night Vision equipment which would have been somewhere in the sticks. Looking through my log book there were a few daily tasks that overan and so the return to Airport Camp was at night. As an example of there being no restrictions at night one trip I did was to bring the Combined Services Entertainment troupe back from Salamanca to Belize late at night after their show.
The night medivacs I did at night to and from Salamanca and San Pedro were tasked medivac flights so they did not come under training.
The AAC would not have been willing to fly over the jungle on one engine though we used to do it in Borneo with Whirlwinds. One Scout did do a night trip however; I brought it back underslung from San Antonio after a No 5 seal failure.

2 was Colin on operations and active services

There was not a campaign medal awarded for the Belize operation. The Guatamalans were confronted to prevent tham taking over the country. There were no direct military operations so there was no war. Much the same way, except on a smaller scale, as the Cold War.

5th May; I have looked at the Elizabeth Medal website and it does not seem that they are qualified. It's a pity; I knew Rog Whiteley when he was an AEO on my Valiant Squadron.

keith egan

6th May 2011, 09:40

Hi fareastdriver
I have seen you post thank you for taking the time. the mod have said the reason all 8 do not qualify for the Elizabeth Cross is it was a training accident but i believe this is not true i understand it was a night time medi-vac .also Belize in the mid 1970's was an operational.
best regards
keith

keith egan

9th May 2011, 13:36

Hi Al
Thanks for directing me to the rocknet site i have revived a number of emails giving help and support and one from colin`s CO Roger Booth when he was with 1 sqd in laarburch 74-76 and he has been a great help with information i need .
Once again thanks
Keith :ok:

Al R

9th May 2011, 16:11

Nice one Keith, good luck and keep us informed would you?

keith egan

25th May 2011, 00:21

Hi All
Just to let you all know i had a phone call form Lt Col R Lindsay (Belize) today as Belize is being scaled down The Cairn at Salamanca will be relocated in the next 2 months so it can be looked after and not lost to the jungle. he also informed me a new memorial will be built for all those who lost their lives in Belize.

keith egan

15th Jul 2011, 10:49

Hi All a copy of an email from Belize :D :ok:
Dear Mr Egan

You contacted me a few months ago about the issue of memorials in Belize – especially that of your brother. I am pleased to be able to attach some photos of what we have done in Price Barracks – centralising the 3 locally located memorials and then, in conjunction with the RBL, constructing one large memorial.

Your brother’s original memorial is the Cairn on the left of the pictures, while his name is also on the main Memorial at the back. It is located within Price Barracks close to the BATSUB Head Quarters, which will allow for much easier maintenance.

I hope that you, your Mother and Family will be relieved to know that your brother’s memory will continue to be properly and formally acknowledged here in Belize.

Many thanks

Rob

Lt Col RH Lindsay | Comd | HQ BATSUB, Price Barracks,

ewe.lander

16th Jul 2011, 13:34

Hi Keith, sorry for the late reply.

Our Crews were tasked by the Det Cdr at the time to carry out 'Training flights/pracise Medivacs' from Salamanca. It didn't happen at that time, I don't really know/remember why (I was a young Crewman then, and at the end of the 'comms chain')

We handed over to the new Crew, I joined my family on holiday in UK, then within a day or 2 the accident happened. Our Crew then returned to Belize after the Funerals.

As to NVG's, I doubt we had them? This was before the NVG family came into use? PNG's as issued to ground forces were available, but like looking down 2 dustbins into a glass of lime juice.

75/76 was a very busy period in Belize for the AAC/RAF, lots of Medivacs - but all due to training accidents/incidents. The AAC at the time operated a flight of Sioux, and we had 2 Puma's in station.

I'm still trying to find my other Det photo's of that time - all Black & White. The Regiment Lads were a great bunch on 230 - but took great delight getting the Aircrew on Jungle Survival/Warfare courses at Sibun and watching us suffer!! :}

ShyTorque

16th Jul 2011, 15:08

As to NVG's, I doubt we had them? This was before the NVG family came into use? PNG's as issued to ground forces were available, but like looking down 2 dustbins into a glass of lime juice.

I concur with this. I joined the Puma force (230 Sqn) in 1979 and that Squadron was still using PNG (awful) at that time. The worst thing about PNGs was that they came fitted into to a faceplate so there was no peripheral vision.We used to have to focus one eye tube on the outside world and one inside, on the instruments. This could be very disorientating. NVG (not so awful) came in a couple of years afterwards.

During my time night vision aids were not in use in Belize.

keith egan

16th Jul 2011, 23:00

http://sn105w.snt105.mail.live.com/att/GetAttachment.aspx?tnail=2&messageId=437038c2-ae6b-11e0-81df-00237de4a5c4&Aux=44|0|8CE108F2D3A93C0||0|0|0|0||&maxwidth=220&maxheight=160&size=Att

Colins original memorial is the Cairn on the right of the pictures, while his name is also on the main Memorial at the back. It is located within Price Barracks close to the BATSUB Head Quarters, which will allow for much easier maintenance.

sada1731

3rd Aug 2011, 20:42

Hi Mick and everyone else out there.

Don't know if you will remember me. I am Nigel's sister, Sheena. I met quite a few of you on a few occasions when I visited Nigel and June. For years and years I have been trying to find a site like this to meet up and chat with people that knew my brother and finally my daughter Sarah found it. Like all of you I am getting on now and technology is beyond me - thank God for the youngsters. I am reading all the comments and names are jumping out at me that I remember well, not just meeting you before Belize but also at the funeral and also Craig's christening. I am trying to work out who is who - ewe.lander - is that Al Hudson, Punchrock - Chris Woolley? and I always remember "there's no F in McArdle" - what is his nickname.

Please, please get in touch with me. I would love to hear what everyone is up to now. I live in Weston super Mare with my husband, and have 3 children and 2 grandchildren. I try to get to Odiham as often as I can. I am also very proud to have gone to the War Memorial at Alrewas to see the guys names on the wall. Very moving.

Someone mentioned a memorial at Odiham - is that in the camp itself. Also the memorial at Salamanca doesn't look anything like the photo we have. Is there more than one?

Please get in touch.

Just realised that as my daughter is the one that registered for this site is gives her age, not mine. If only I was that age again. I know a girl lies about her age but there is no way I could get away with pretending to be 25.

LOL

Sheena Jeffrey
[email protected]

sada1731

7th Aug 2011, 19:26

Hi,

When was this picture taken? and was Nigel actually on the crew at this time?

Sheena (Nigel's sister)

brianf51

5th Sep 2011, 17:46

I came home from one detachment to APC in June 76 so the crew out there at the crash time must have taken over from us. I remember hearing about it at Odiham and being a Nav Insty at the time took particular interest in the details. As I remember it the fingers were all pointing at a pitch channel runaway in the autopilot as the system was prone to that. Even had a protection unit fitted eventually to prevent it happening.

The following year I was 'volunteered' to be part of the working party which disposed of the Puma's remains and those of the Harrier which also came to grief at around the same period. Two hours out into the Carribean on a navy landing craft and over the side with the lot!

keith egan

7th Sep 2011, 22:28

Hi All
i have found this after about 10 years of looking for one

Can anyone tell me if this is the same as the one that Crashed apart from the number before i buy it .

Westland Puma HC Mk.1 ,XW219, 230 Sqn,
Brand: Corgi Product Code: COAA27001 Scale: 1:72
£52.99

Thanks for your help
Keith

Fareastdriver

8th Sep 2011, 09:29

Check the engine intakes of the kit. At the time of the accident Pumas had plain open intakes. From 1979 on they were fitted with the large filters in front of the engines.

keith egan

8th Sep 2011, 13:27

Hi Fareastdriver
Thanks for that it has the filters on front of the engines. it is die cast so i mite not be able remove them

Airborne Aircrew

8th Sep 2011, 20:12

Keith:

Search E-Bay for combinations of Matchbox, 1/32, Puma,SA330.

It is exactly the airframe you are looking for. I picked one up a few months ago. It has the direct intakes without the PIPS Farestdriver is referring to.

jaedmunds

24th Aug 2013, 08:32

I was serving with the Royal Engineers at Salamanca camp 1976/77 and I was a witness to the crash. I was facing east toward the landing pads with my back to the accommodation huts, the the puma was facing north, it lifted off and immediately turned east over the tree line (which was much closer to the pads then) gaining altitude. In less than a minute (approx) the engine noise suddenly quietened considerably and it began a banked left turn, I guess to return to the pads. The angle of the bank became more acute and the aircraft appeared to 'slide' across the sky, over shoot the camp area and crash into the jungle. The impact site from where I was standing was to the west side of the track and about 250yds north of the fuel hut. There was a very large explosion and fire on impact. We collected tools and hacked our way into the dense jungle from the road. I will gladly answer any questions about this sad event. BTW Airbourne Aircrew's drawing is almost as it was however the landing pads and fueling hut were 100yds further and the jungle started where the fuel hut is indicated.

Craigyfish

22nd Oct 2013, 16:34

Hi All,

Not sure who is still viewing this thread, appreciate it is fairly old!
Just wanted to say hi and thanks to all of you who mentioned kind words about my Dad on this thread.

My Dad was Nigel Storey, I'm Craig. I was not even 1 year old when the accident happened. I see there are a few on here who actually knew my Dad, it would be great to hear from you and find out how you are getting on and here any old stories of my Dad's exploits! :-)

For those interested and knew us, my mum and I are doing well, still not far from Odiham.

Keep well and stay safe. If you want to get in touch, my email is [email protected]

Craig Storey

Punchrock

12th Nov 2013, 07:29

I check back every once and a while, any 'Rock' that served on 230 at that time would remember your dad. He was one of the more likable characters of the Aircrews. He did save my bacon once! I will email direct more details.

Punchrock

12th Nov 2013, 07:33

Did you by chance serve with a Mike Hanchett? He tells the same story. Cant tell you his rank at the time, I am still in contact.

sheshe

16th Sep 2014, 15:30

OMG didn't know this link was still going. Is there anybody out there still that remembers Nigel and the family. Would love to hear from you.

jacobite66

9th Sep 2015, 16:03

Sir's.
My name is Nommy Fraser, i served with the 1st Bn Q.O. HLDR's S coy Mortar platoon. I was in Salamanca camp from April to October 1987. I thought it might be of interest to you to let you know that it was our Mortar section that built the memorial cairn in around the july/August time of 87. I have the press and journal newspaper of Morayshire Scotland cutting and can post with names of men that built it. Also stones for the cairn were collected from the little burn that ran past the camp. When the memorial was dedicated, the padre of the battalion Ivan Warrick of Rothes Scotland performed the ceremony which was attended by support coy and head of BFB. Regards.
N. Fraser

Hickatee

8th Nov 2015, 23:04

My name is Ian Morton and I live 20 miles from the Salamanca Camp which is now the Toledo ITVET campus.

I was out that way recently and was intending to pay my respect to the service men killed in the Puma crash which is still remembered by locals and with gratitude to all the servicemen who came to Southern Belize.

Although the cairns (for the Puma Crash and the Truck crash) have both been moved to Price Barracks in Belize City I had hoped that I would still be able to find the memorial sites. However the bush has grown so much that this was just not going to happen.
I was able to tour the camp and to take some photographs which I have posted to my Flickr page here – https://www.flickr.com/photos/hickatee/albums/72157658654199734
Although some of the camp is in serious disrepair many of the building have been converted to classrooms and offices.
I have tried to identify the use of each building but would welcome corrections.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/645/22857103106_14d028220a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/APNCqA)Salamanca Camp 2015 - Gate - 69 (https://flic.kr/p/APNCqA) by Ian Morton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hickatee/), on Flickr

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5825/22260338794_0f29077998_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/zV54bJ)Salamanca Camp 2015 - Barracks - 37 (https://flic.kr/p/zV54bJ) by Ian Morton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hickatee/), on Flickr
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hickatee/22260338794
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hickatee/22857103106/in/album-72157658654199734/https://www.flickr.com/photos/hickatee/22464695867/in/album-72157658654199734/https://www.flickr.com/photos/hickatee/22894240071/in/album-72157658654199734/