Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial
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Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial
The thread on the unfortunate Belize accident (hope you're ok guys) prompted some memories by Ppruners of the Puma accident at Salamanca, Belize, which claimed the lives of 8 UK military personnel.
Lt Alister McKillop QOHLDRS
Cpl Matthew Glasgow QOHLDRS
Cpl John Reardon RAF Odiham
SAC Colin Egan RAF Regt
Flt Lt Tony Long 230 Sqn RAF
Flt Lt Roger Whitley 230 Sqn RAF
MALM Christopher Bolam 230 Sqn RAF
Sgt Nigel Storey 230 Sqn RAF
To support BATSUB in its essential work-up programme for elements of the British Army, A regular Puma detachment, comprising of aircrew and groundcrew of 33 and 230 Sqns, has renewed its acquaintance with Belize in recent years.
The Puma det organised a visit on 26th March 2007 to view the Salamanca memorial, restore it as required, and hold a short service of rememberance for our departed brothers.
The local townsfolk were very helpful in clearing the site with the military ground party, and the accompanying photos show some of the activity before and after the memorial service. I'm sorry I don't have pictures of the service itself, as I was in the congregation. Perhaps other attendees may have more photos?
Please be assured that the personnel who lost their lives at Salamanca have not been forgotten. The memorial will be visited when we are in Belize to remind the current generation of past sacrifices, and to ensure it remains in a respectable condition.
Lt Alister McKillop QOHLDRS
Cpl Matthew Glasgow QOHLDRS
Cpl John Reardon RAF Odiham
SAC Colin Egan RAF Regt
Flt Lt Tony Long 230 Sqn RAF
Flt Lt Roger Whitley 230 Sqn RAF
MALM Christopher Bolam 230 Sqn RAF
Sgt Nigel Storey 230 Sqn RAF
To support BATSUB in its essential work-up programme for elements of the British Army, A regular Puma detachment, comprising of aircrew and groundcrew of 33 and 230 Sqns, has renewed its acquaintance with Belize in recent years.
The Puma det organised a visit on 26th March 2007 to view the Salamanca memorial, restore it as required, and hold a short service of rememberance for our departed brothers.
The local townsfolk were very helpful in clearing the site with the military ground party, and the accompanying photos show some of the activity before and after the memorial service. I'm sorry I don't have pictures of the service itself, as I was in the congregation. Perhaps other attendees may have more photos?
Please be assured that the personnel who lost their lives at Salamanca have not been forgotten. The memorial will be visited when we are in Belize to remind the current generation of past sacrifices, and to ensure it remains in a respectable condition.
Last edited by seafuryfan; 7th Sep 2007 at 22:45. Reason: Finger trouble caused duplicate posting: If you posted on the second thread, please re-submit - tks, SFF
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I vaguely remember the memorial...
My brain isn't helping me. Is the memorial actually at the crash site or is it within Salamanca itself? I ask because I recall the crash site in high trees yet the pictures you published have no high trees.
Just trying to get my "bearings"... Been almost 20 years since I was last in Belize...
My brain isn't helping me. Is the memorial actually at the crash site or is it within Salamanca itself? I ask because I recall the crash site in high trees yet the pictures you published have no high trees.
Just trying to get my "bearings"... Been almost 20 years since I was last in Belize...
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I don't know about where the accident actually occurred, but on the air to ground photo the memorial is located within the tapered green rectangle, 2/3 to the right.
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Ok... Then the crash site is probably out to the left of the air photo on the track that makes up the bottom of your tapered rectangle.
It's wierd, I can picture, Rideau, Holdfast, Gallon Jugs, APC, Hunting Caye, San Pedro airstrip etc. etc. etc. but for some reason, despite clearly remembering staying there for a few nights, I can't picture Salamanca even with the photo right there in front of me.
It's wierd, I can picture, Rideau, Holdfast, Gallon Jugs, APC, Hunting Caye, San Pedro airstrip etc. etc. etc. but for some reason, despite clearly remembering staying there for a few nights, I can't picture Salamanca even with the photo right there in front of me.
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What a pity it fell into disrepair. The memorial was always well tended by the 1563 boys and the Army chaps at Salamanca. I can remember dropping off a couple of guys during a BGS in '85 to repaint it and tidy up.
Wasn't it quite adjacent to the Tiswas refuel point?
Wasn't it quite adjacent to the Tiswas refuel point?
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I remember Salamanca well. Sorry the site was in disrepair. We should still be there. The cheapest low level, hot and high training the SH force ever had!!
RIP chaps
A Fellow Tiger
RIP chaps
A Fellow Tiger
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Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial August 1976
My name is Paul Bolam and my father was killed at Salamanca, Belize in the Puma crash 1976. While searching the web as I regularly do looking for any information on the death of my father C.A.Bolam 230 Sqn I found these notes about the Salamanca Puma Crash Site Memorial.
I know very little about what happened ref the helicopter crash. In fact the information on the PPrune thread has told me where it happened and just seeing the jungle and area it happened has been a missing piece for me. If anyone else has any more information no matter how small it seems to you would be very gratefully received.
All the best
Paul Bolam
[email protected]
I know very little about what happened ref the helicopter crash. In fact the information on the PPrune thread has told me where it happened and just seeing the jungle and area it happened has been a missing piece for me. If anyone else has any more information no matter how small it seems to you would be very gratefully received.
All the best
Paul Bolam
[email protected]
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Paul:
I responded to your PM before seeing this thread, (again), and now I am wondering how little you know of the circumstances of the crash. I believe more about the crash was discussed in another thread here but, as mentioned here by me and in my response to your PM, that may be the fuzzyness of an old mind...
I responded to your PM before seeing this thread, (again), and now I am wondering how little you know of the circumstances of the crash. I believe more about the crash was discussed in another thread here but, as mentioned here by me and in my response to your PM, that may be the fuzzyness of an old mind...
Last edited by Airborne Aircrew; 6th Aug 2008 at 21:53.
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Hi Paul,
Search for 'Salamanca' in the pprune toolbar and you'll find some posts with contributors from 230 Sqn around the time your Dad was serving, as well as some good background stuff on the life out there.
There may also be some old multi-engine drivers around from the sixties who might have known him before he went helos.
What about placing a new thread asking for info, as the truckies out there might not click on a helicopter thread.
Regards and good luck,
SFF
Search for 'Salamanca' in the pprune toolbar and you'll find some posts with contributors from 230 Sqn around the time your Dad was serving, as well as some good background stuff on the life out there.
There may also be some old multi-engine drivers around from the sixties who might have known him before he went helos.
What about placing a new thread asking for info, as the truckies out there might not click on a helicopter thread.
Regards and good luck,
SFF
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Paul, My commiserations.
I was in Belize for the first time in 1979. From what I remember of Salamanca, looking at the second photo, I think the memorial is just about where the aircraft came down. I was shown the accident site early on in my time there and we found some small electrical components still in the bushes. There was no memorial in those days but we paid our respects to lost colleagues (I didn't know them personally because I didn't join the RAF until 1976).
I believe there was a raised landing pad just to the left of the memorial in that same photo and at the time the undergrowth was quite a lot thicker in the area. We used to land on the pad routinely under the directions of our crewmen to locate the wheels as we couldn't see the pad from the cockpit when correctly placed over it. It was really too small for a Puma; it was designed for smaller, skidded aircraft such as the Scout.
I think the accident occurred on takeoff. An engine failed, the rotor RPM drooped and the alternators tripped off line. This caused the autopilot to drop out, destabilising the aircraft, which had insufficient power on the remaining engine to fly away. The pilot had no option except to attempt a landing back on the pad. Unfortunately the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad and crashed a few metres back from it. All on board were lost.
The Pumas electrical system was modified after this accident. The normal main rotor speed (Nr) limits were 258 to 272. If the Nr dropped to 240 for 2 seconds, the alternators tripped off. The system was modified to remain on unless the Nr dropped to 220. I hope those figures are correct, it's been over 14 years since I flew the Puma and I'm relying on my memory, not written notes.
I remember Salamanca and that helipad for two reasons. I once had to divert there due to very bad weather at our destination at Rideau. The field between the helipad and the hill, in those days a football field, was flooded because the river at the rear of the hill had broken its banks and was flowing round both sides of it. We waded across through about 18 inches of water to get to the HF radio room at the top of the hill, in order to contact HQ and inform them of our whereabouts. As I was about to enter the radio room via the steps, a Ghurka soldier loudly shouted "STOP". I paused mid step, to see a large snake under my instep. It had been in the radio room and was coming down the steps. I very narrowly avoided treading on it. I was later shown it after they killed it - it was a very big Fer-de-lance. Had the Ghurka not shouted I would probably have been bitten. The nearest medical treatment was in Florida; no one else could fly the heli so I would probably not have survived.
The second thing that happened to me there was a total loss of hydraulic fluid in one of my Puma's hydraulic systems. It blew out via a fractured flexible pipe on the nose undercarriage leg (the contents of the manual reserve can had also all gone, according to the engineers). As we took off there was a loud bang, followed by vibration, strong smelling oil fumes and more loud noises from the transmission. I thought it was the main gearbox breaking up and briefly thought about dumping the aircraft in the trees. I resisted the temptation (the accident site was quite strong in my mind) and flew a very tight circuit back to the helipad. The loud noises up top reduced slightly but increased again as I lowered the undercarriage. We still thought it was the main gearbox until after shutdown when we spotted the full length underside of the aircraft dripping hydraulic fluid. The noise was the hydraulic pump cavitating due to loss of fluid.
Had we not got the gear down and locked before the system emptied (I was trained to be very quick to lower it in an emergency) we would have been forced to do a wheels up landing at our destination at Rideau. This would have been very awkward due to the very poor ground and similar small raised helipads there. We had very little fuel left, as it happened and there was no facility for a refuel in the hover at either HLS.
I was in Belize for the first time in 1979. From what I remember of Salamanca, looking at the second photo, I think the memorial is just about where the aircraft came down. I was shown the accident site early on in my time there and we found some small electrical components still in the bushes. There was no memorial in those days but we paid our respects to lost colleagues (I didn't know them personally because I didn't join the RAF until 1976).
I believe there was a raised landing pad just to the left of the memorial in that same photo and at the time the undergrowth was quite a lot thicker in the area. We used to land on the pad routinely under the directions of our crewmen to locate the wheels as we couldn't see the pad from the cockpit when correctly placed over it. It was really too small for a Puma; it was designed for smaller, skidded aircraft such as the Scout.
I think the accident occurred on takeoff. An engine failed, the rotor RPM drooped and the alternators tripped off line. This caused the autopilot to drop out, destabilising the aircraft, which had insufficient power on the remaining engine to fly away. The pilot had no option except to attempt a landing back on the pad. Unfortunately the aircraft drifted back beyond the pad and crashed a few metres back from it. All on board were lost.
The Pumas electrical system was modified after this accident. The normal main rotor speed (Nr) limits were 258 to 272. If the Nr dropped to 240 for 2 seconds, the alternators tripped off. The system was modified to remain on unless the Nr dropped to 220. I hope those figures are correct, it's been over 14 years since I flew the Puma and I'm relying on my memory, not written notes.
I remember Salamanca and that helipad for two reasons. I once had to divert there due to very bad weather at our destination at Rideau. The field between the helipad and the hill, in those days a football field, was flooded because the river at the rear of the hill had broken its banks and was flowing round both sides of it. We waded across through about 18 inches of water to get to the HF radio room at the top of the hill, in order to contact HQ and inform them of our whereabouts. As I was about to enter the radio room via the steps, a Ghurka soldier loudly shouted "STOP". I paused mid step, to see a large snake under my instep. It had been in the radio room and was coming down the steps. I very narrowly avoided treading on it. I was later shown it after they killed it - it was a very big Fer-de-lance. Had the Ghurka not shouted I would probably have been bitten. The nearest medical treatment was in Florida; no one else could fly the heli so I would probably not have survived.
The second thing that happened to me there was a total loss of hydraulic fluid in one of my Puma's hydraulic systems. It blew out via a fractured flexible pipe on the nose undercarriage leg (the contents of the manual reserve can had also all gone, according to the engineers). As we took off there was a loud bang, followed by vibration, strong smelling oil fumes and more loud noises from the transmission. I thought it was the main gearbox breaking up and briefly thought about dumping the aircraft in the trees. I resisted the temptation (the accident site was quite strong in my mind) and flew a very tight circuit back to the helipad. The loud noises up top reduced slightly but increased again as I lowered the undercarriage. We still thought it was the main gearbox until after shutdown when we spotted the full length underside of the aircraft dripping hydraulic fluid. The noise was the hydraulic pump cavitating due to loss of fluid.
Had we not got the gear down and locked before the system emptied (I was trained to be very quick to lower it in an emergency) we would have been forced to do a wheels up landing at our destination at Rideau. This would have been very awkward due to the very poor ground and similar small raised helipads there. We had very little fuel left, as it happened and there was no facility for a refuel in the hover at either HLS.
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The most exclusive airline in the world.
Puma at Salamanca circa 1987
XW233 c/n 1205 itself written off 27 Nov 92
Puma at Salamanca circa 1987
XW233 c/n 1205 itself written off 27 Nov 92
Last edited by Tiger_mate; 7th Aug 2008 at 16:51.
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That brings back some memories! The accident site was to the right of this photo, out of shot.
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Now I'm really confused... which is probably all my fault.
In the mid 80's when I walked around the crash site it was in the jungle/forest itself about 10-15 yards off a track on the left hand side. While I have to own up to almost zero recollections of Salamanca until a few minutes ago I seem so clear about this in my mind.
So I started digging... The first thing I did was to try to find a satellite photo of Salamanca to try to reorient myself. Salamanca, (which seems now to be Salamanca Forestry Camp), is at N16.281 W89.022, (In Google Earth enter 16.281 -89.022). Google Earth etc. only have very low res. images of that region but it did, immediately, jog my memory as to where it was and the road running through it.
I did some more digging and found some photographs of Salamanca in the 80's. One particular picture stood out. It was uploaded a by a chap calling himself Oaksey who seems to have been a refueller. The picture is of his refuelling hut, the two pads and the road running away into the jungle.
Now, I might be wrong but my memory says that just past the very last palm trees on the left side of the track/road where it disappears are the high trees where the aircraft came down. I do clearly remember the high trees and the low undergrowth that covered much of the small pieces of the wreckage that were never removed.
What confuses me is the location of the memorial in the photo. My mind tells me that, unless there was a lot of cutting back of the trees, the memorial is some distance from the actual crash site.
Can anyone help an old man's fading memory... Because I have very clear memories of so many other places but, for some reason, Salamanca is all gone.
In the mid 80's when I walked around the crash site it was in the jungle/forest itself about 10-15 yards off a track on the left hand side. While I have to own up to almost zero recollections of Salamanca until a few minutes ago I seem so clear about this in my mind.
So I started digging... The first thing I did was to try to find a satellite photo of Salamanca to try to reorient myself. Salamanca, (which seems now to be Salamanca Forestry Camp), is at N16.281 W89.022, (In Google Earth enter 16.281 -89.022). Google Earth etc. only have very low res. images of that region but it did, immediately, jog my memory as to where it was and the road running through it.
I did some more digging and found some photographs of Salamanca in the 80's. One particular picture stood out. It was uploaded a by a chap calling himself Oaksey who seems to have been a refueller. The picture is of his refuelling hut, the two pads and the road running away into the jungle.
Now, I might be wrong but my memory says that just past the very last palm trees on the left side of the track/road where it disappears are the high trees where the aircraft came down. I do clearly remember the high trees and the low undergrowth that covered much of the small pieces of the wreckage that were never removed.
What confuses me is the location of the memorial in the photo. My mind tells me that, unless there was a lot of cutting back of the trees, the memorial is some distance from the actual crash site.
Can anyone help an old man's fading memory... Because I have very clear memories of so many other places but, for some reason, Salamanca is all gone.
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This photograph (taken at the same time as my last one) would have been to the 10 oclock of the previous one. To add to the confusion, I thought I had my back towards the crash site. Note typical internals of propane gas, batteries and water and petrol all together, we were nails in those days!!
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'Ard as nails... Are you saying they don't allow such "creative" shipping nowadays? How on earth would anyone fight a war?
Your supposition that your back was to the crash site would confirm my thoughs. If you look at your two pictures and then at Oaksey's showing his hut you were standing to the right of my picture looking straight across the landing pads in the first and then you approached the aircraft and turned to your left to show the scene from the LP's point of view. The fact that you never see the 2nd LP or the refuelling hut confirms that.
If my guess at the location of the crash site is correct then it was in about your 4-o-clock when you took your second picture.
The question I have now is, (because I'm still not oriented), where is north in any of these pictures. I believed the crash site was where the road left the camp to the north but now I'm unsure . I'm trying to determine the orientation of the high overhead picture in the first post too but there have clearly been changes and I have no point of reference at the moment.
Your supposition that your back was to the crash site would confirm my thoughs. If you look at your two pictures and then at Oaksey's showing his hut you were standing to the right of my picture looking straight across the landing pads in the first and then you approached the aircraft and turned to your left to show the scene from the LP's point of view. The fact that you never see the 2nd LP or the refuelling hut confirms that.
If my guess at the location of the crash site is correct then it was in about your 4-o-clock when you took your second picture.
The question I have now is, (because I'm still not oriented), where is north in any of these pictures. I believed the crash site was where the road left the camp to the north but now I'm unsure . I'm trying to determine the orientation of the high overhead picture in the first post too but there have clearly been changes and I have no point of reference at the moment.
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I think that the pads used to be in the centre of the 'race track' in the top left quater of the first photo on this thread orientated parallel to the track that runs from the camp towards the 9 oclock.
I also believe that the crash site is central top on the same photo, beyond where a large(ish) but isolated building can be seen.
It has been twenty years though, and A_A: you probably briefed me in the first place as to the location!
I also believe that the crash site is central top on the same photo, beyond where a large(ish) but isolated building can be seen.
It has been twenty years though, and A_A: you probably briefed me in the first place as to the location!
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Hello Gents,
Thanks for taking the time to respond, it has taken me aback to read the comments and see the photos. After advice from you guys I have applied to join the 230 Sqn Ass today so I hope to be accepted and that this will open up some more doors to help me find information.
I have also found out there is a memorial at Odiham which I would like to see so I will write a letter to 230 Sqn and see if it is possible for my mother and brother to visit.
Thanks again everyone.
All the best
Paul.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, it has taken me aback to read the comments and see the photos. After advice from you guys I have applied to join the 230 Sqn Ass today so I hope to be accepted and that this will open up some more doors to help me find information.
I have also found out there is a memorial at Odiham which I would like to see so I will write a letter to 230 Sqn and see if it is possible for my mother and brother to visit.
Thanks again everyone.
All the best
Paul.
Last edited by P-Bolam; 8th Aug 2008 at 07:03.
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More Info
Hi Paul,
I've found the thread which I think Airborne Aircrew refers to. It's actually (originally) about the recent unfortunate AAC Bell 212 accident in Belize but the Salamanca accident is also discussed in some technical detail. Here's the link in case you did not manage to read the whole thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/militar...sh-belize.html
Regards,
SFF
PS: AA, IIRC, the first photo is taken on about 070.
I've found the thread which I think Airborne Aircrew refers to. It's actually (originally) about the recent unfortunate AAC Bell 212 accident in Belize but the Salamanca accident is also discussed in some technical detail. Here's the link in case you did not manage to read the whole thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/militar...sh-belize.html
Regards,
SFF
PS: AA, IIRC, the first photo is taken on about 070.
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Seafury:
Thanks for the heading... With that piece of info, my memory, Tiger Mate's and Oaksey's photographs and the information in this post I think I have my orientation.
ShyTorque stated that they thought the aircraft was in a high hover and, upon experiencing the failure, attempted to move backwards back over the pads. Looking at Oaksey's and Tiger's pictures his theory doesn't make sense. The distances to trees are too great in all directions for a rearward drift to have ended up in the trees. The high hover makes some sense since it was a night takeoff but, unimpeded by trees, even without any automated stabilization I don't see the aircraft coming down any way other than properly oriented, (limited divergence in pitch and roll). I then find it difficult to see it killing everyone in these circumstances. Pax and ALM maybe, but the pilots would be comparatively well protected. I'm not saying it's impossible - it just seems unlikely.
Looking again at the photos and the post pointed to by Seafury it does seem more reasonable that the aircraft was in transition when the failure occurred. I speculate, (because I can't find any accident reports anywhere), that the aircraft had reached a high hover over the pad and had begun to transition, losing a little height as it did so and looking for the SSE speed. Oaksey's photo shows that the distance to the higher trees from the closest pad is only 70 or so yards which, with a fairly heavy a/c, would pretty much preclude it from having reached SSE speed. I'll further speculate, (and no - I wasn't a pilot - but I flew with one once...
), that once the failure occurred and it all went dark that the pilot would have a tendency to try to keep the collective high because he knew there were trees ahead making reattaining an Nr within limits very difficult. He didn't have a choice really... he's losing altitude with a massive shortage of power which, in an obstacle free environment, _might_ have been recoverable from. But the combination of a heavy aircraft, with a high density altitude, in transition, with limited power, high trees ahead and a thoroughly disorienting environment, (we all can remember how dark dark can be in Belize), conspired to make this an utterly unrecoverable situation.
Once the fuselage began to contact the trees it would add to any drag and serve to "pull" the aircraft down and once a tip or possibly the tail rotor struck something substantial it was all over. In the trees the aircraft would most certainly diverged in pitch, roll and yaw causing the much less survivable scenario that clearly occurred.
This gels more closely with those of us who remember, (some quite clearly), being under the canopy while "exploring" the wreckage and is all quite reasonable and logical remembering the way we used to operate.
I have made the diagram below to attempt to clear this all up and help others get better oriented.
The X and the Y are the approximate locations of Tiger_mate when he took his two pictures. The X is the picture of the Puma and was taken facing almost due west and the Y was the location of the second picture taken facing about 200 degrees hence his feeling that the crash site was behind him. Had Oaksey been there when Tiger took his picture he would have appeared in the first shot, within the rotor disk directly in front of the Puma. The crash site would be around the area of the large red circle. and the green line is the extent of the higher trees in the air photo provided by Seafury. Looking at the various pictures from the time and the air photo by Seafury it seems that the trees have neither encroached further nor been cut back much from their 1970/80's extent so the crash site is just out of shot on the left side of Seafury's air photo just below where the two tracks come together and, in Oaksey's photo it would have been in the region of the bushy treetop directly above where the track disappears.
As I have said several times, this is my "best guess", based on memories, other people's observations, a recollection of how we operated and what therefore seems logical and reasonable. I'm absolutely open to correction.
Thanks for the heading... With that piece of info, my memory, Tiger Mate's and Oaksey's photographs and the information in this post I think I have my orientation.
ShyTorque stated that they thought the aircraft was in a high hover and, upon experiencing the failure, attempted to move backwards back over the pads. Looking at Oaksey's and Tiger's pictures his theory doesn't make sense. The distances to trees are too great in all directions for a rearward drift to have ended up in the trees. The high hover makes some sense since it was a night takeoff but, unimpeded by trees, even without any automated stabilization I don't see the aircraft coming down any way other than properly oriented, (limited divergence in pitch and roll). I then find it difficult to see it killing everyone in these circumstances. Pax and ALM maybe, but the pilots would be comparatively well protected. I'm not saying it's impossible - it just seems unlikely.
Looking again at the photos and the post pointed to by Seafury it does seem more reasonable that the aircraft was in transition when the failure occurred. I speculate, (because I can't find any accident reports anywhere), that the aircraft had reached a high hover over the pad and had begun to transition, losing a little height as it did so and looking for the SSE speed. Oaksey's photo shows that the distance to the higher trees from the closest pad is only 70 or so yards which, with a fairly heavy a/c, would pretty much preclude it from having reached SSE speed. I'll further speculate, (and no - I wasn't a pilot - but I flew with one once...
), that once the failure occurred and it all went dark that the pilot would have a tendency to try to keep the collective high because he knew there were trees ahead making reattaining an Nr within limits very difficult. He didn't have a choice really... he's losing altitude with a massive shortage of power which, in an obstacle free environment, _might_ have been recoverable from. But the combination of a heavy aircraft, with a high density altitude, in transition, with limited power, high trees ahead and a thoroughly disorienting environment, (we all can remember how dark dark can be in Belize), conspired to make this an utterly unrecoverable situation.Once the fuselage began to contact the trees it would add to any drag and serve to "pull" the aircraft down and once a tip or possibly the tail rotor struck something substantial it was all over. In the trees the aircraft would most certainly diverged in pitch, roll and yaw causing the much less survivable scenario that clearly occurred.
This gels more closely with those of us who remember, (some quite clearly), being under the canopy while "exploring" the wreckage and is all quite reasonable and logical remembering the way we used to operate.
I have made the diagram below to attempt to clear this all up and help others get better oriented.
The X and the Y are the approximate locations of Tiger_mate when he took his two pictures. The X is the picture of the Puma and was taken facing almost due west and the Y was the location of the second picture taken facing about 200 degrees hence his feeling that the crash site was behind him. Had Oaksey been there when Tiger took his picture he would have appeared in the first shot, within the rotor disk directly in front of the Puma. The crash site would be around the area of the large red circle. and the green line is the extent of the higher trees in the air photo provided by Seafury. Looking at the various pictures from the time and the air photo by Seafury it seems that the trees have neither encroached further nor been cut back much from their 1970/80's extent so the crash site is just out of shot on the left side of Seafury's air photo just below where the two tracks come together and, in Oaksey's photo it would have been in the region of the bushy treetop directly above where the track disappears.
As I have said several times, this is my "best guess", based on memories, other people's observations, a recollection of how we operated and what therefore seems logical and reasonable. I'm absolutely open to correction.
Hi Paul,
I was a Loadie on the crew that handed over to your Dad and Nige Storey - both top top men. We then departed to UK, after the crash we went to the funeral (I was pall bearer for Nige) then we went straight back to Belize to help the detachment out. Morale was through the floor for a while - but 230 always was a strong squadron and we got on with things. It took a while to restore confidence again in the dear old Puma, but we got there.
Long time ago but as you stood on the track looking up at the 'Attap' huts the crash site was down to the right. The Puma took off to the left from that position, it was assumed at the time it suffered a single engine failure which at the time would have presented the 2 Pilots (also thoroughly great blokes) with auto pilot out, half lighting and various electrical snags. they apparently turned downwind right and attempted to put the Puma back on the deck. Salamanca was in a 'bowl' feature and extremely black, the rest become assumptions - suffice to say we lost great men that night.
I was proud to work for your Dad Paul - a bloody good man. Best regards, Ewe
I was a Loadie on the crew that handed over to your Dad and Nige Storey - both top top men. We then departed to UK, after the crash we went to the funeral (I was pall bearer for Nige) then we went straight back to Belize to help the detachment out. Morale was through the floor for a while - but 230 always was a strong squadron and we got on with things. It took a while to restore confidence again in the dear old Puma, but we got there.
Long time ago but as you stood on the track looking up at the 'Attap' huts the crash site was down to the right. The Puma took off to the left from that position, it was assumed at the time it suffered a single engine failure which at the time would have presented the 2 Pilots (also thoroughly great blokes) with auto pilot out, half lighting and various electrical snags. they apparently turned downwind right and attempted to put the Puma back on the deck. Salamanca was in a 'bowl' feature and extremely black, the rest become assumptions - suffice to say we lost great men that night.
I was proud to work for your Dad Paul - a bloody good man. Best regards, Ewe