Steep Turns...

[RudeNot2]

Morning folks

Looking for additional advice on steep turns from others that have had problems getting them nailed.:ugh:

As I enter the initial turn the throttle is increased and continue banking to 45+ degrees and start to pull back. I don't know if it is just nerves or something else for me but I cannot hold the bank on correctly it always slips off to 30 - 40 degrees. The other thing that may go through my mind is over-stressing of the aircraft.. Possibly stupid - for a normal manoeuvre..

Did a number yesterday with and without the instructor - both left and right and neither seem to be any better than previous.

The aircraft is a PA28 Warrior.

Any advice or suggestions are welcome.

RudeNot2

[coodem]

Are you by any focusing on the guages to much, try looking out the window, its a lot easier. I find the warrior very easy and forgiving on steep turns, easy to hit your own wake on completing the 360

[BackPacker]

Overstressing the aircraft? Hardly likely. The certification limit is at least 3.8g, and a 45 degree bank doesn't even get to 2g (someone do the math please?). 3.8g requires serious pulling (on the stick/yoke) and serious puffing (breathing).

What are you using as your bank angle reference? Are you looking at the horizon or at the artificial horizon? What I tend to do is roll the aircraft with my eyes on the artificial horizon to get to 45 degrees exactly, then look outside for the angle between the real horizon and the cowling at some point. Keep it there, pull back on the yoke and put a little extra power on. It might not be the correct technique (your instructors advice is paramount anyway) but it works for me.

If you tend to roll out early, it might be some latent fear. Together with your instructor, do a few 60 degrees banked turns. It doesn't matter if they go perfect, but they might help you overcome that fear and 45 degrees will seem easy after that. Better yet, get an aerobatics plane + instructor and do some 75 degree turns, rolls and loops. 45 degree banked turns are dead easy after that.

[toolowtoofast]

As I learned it, and it works for me pretty well:

Spot your roll in/roll out point on the horizon. Power to full as you roll in, don't forget rudder, set bank angle and aft elevator, check roll @ required horizon, then forget the AH, pick the cowl/horizon point/angle and keep it there. Don't follow the hills on the horizon! The only instrument I keep half an eye on is the VSI, but if you've got a nice flat horizon like an ocean, if your picture changes, you'll know what's happening before the VSI tells you.

[julian_storey]

I use the same technique as Backpacker.

Once you've got it nice and stable, see how many times you can go round and round at precisely the same angle of bank without losing or gaining any height :D

[7120]

Usual problems with steep turns are: inadvertent climbing, nose slicing down through the horizon (scary) or using "up" rudder, instead of elevator, to keep the nose up (dangerous).
All craft are different and you have to develop feel i.e the balance between power, rudder, aileron and elevator to initiate and maintain a balanced turn.
Try this. Initially do instrument only turns. AH for angle of bank, VSI for level and turn and slip for balance. Once you've developed the sequence of power, aileron, rudder and elevator to initiate and maintain a balanced steep turn and more importantly you can feel this through your hands, body and feet then look outside for the visual clues that produce the same.
Always have at the back of your mind the stall speeds for the respective "g" loading and the 'g" loading required to maintain level flight for the respective bank angle.

[BigEndBob]

Try this next time...add a touch of power, roll on bank, put down 2 stages of flap. And let go...the aircraft will fly itself all day at 45 degrees.

[Fuji Abound]

I'd go about it slightly differently.

Don’t worry about the AI at all, use the real horizon.

The only instrument to use is the altimeter. Make sure you know the height at which you enter the turn.

I think a problem stems form people over using the instruments - after all this is a visual manoeuver and getting use to doing it with reference to the horizon alone is helpful.

You will probably find at first you don’t get to 45 degrees because you feel it is to steep. Don’t worry, your instructor will soon tell you.

Once you are in the turn keep the horizon in the same place, flicking your eyes down very occasionally to check you are maintaining exactly the same height.

Look for the buffet as you enter your prop wash - if you don’t get it, you are not doing in right.

Works every time!

[Humaround]

"Usual problems with steep turns are: inadvertent climbing, nose slicing down through the horizon (scary) or using "up" rudder, instead of elevator, to keep the nose up (dangerous)"

Wouldn't agree that top rudder is necessarily dangerous. Whilst in a PA28 it would not be a good way to keep the nose up in a steep turn, the elevator is for doing that, what it will do is side slip you into the turn, which in moderation is a safe manouevre, more so than over-ruddering into the turn, which could (with over-enthusiastic use of up elevator) cause a spin.

[Piper19]

I have no experience in a PA28, but I don't look at the cockpit instruments all the time. I visually checkthe horizon in reference to the airplane cowling.occasionaly I do check the bank angle and variometer. But using the visual method I always find it to be at zero. Don't know if this is the correct technique, it is the technique I've learned and works for me. In the Cub I did give 50 RPM more power, not in the C152 unless passing 60° of bank. The c152 seems to hold speed fairly up to 60°

[Lunchmaster]

In the PA28 I learned in the technique was:

Good look out into direction of turn - lookout to the other direction - check still straight and level - lookout into direction of turn again - roll on 30 degrees of bank with reference to the horizon over the nose not instruments - throttle to full power - roll on another 30 degrees of bank - maintain altitude using forward and backward movements of the control column. If descending or ascending too much just roll off some bank and get re-established.

Once you're 30 degress from the direction you want to return to straight and level, power back to normal cruise rpm and just roll off the bank.

Worked every time once I broke it down into these components.

[Runaway Gun]

I'm confused just reading some of these answers - yet I'm aware that they are all saying pretty much the same thing.

Get out there with your instructor, and during the preflight brief ask him about the ATTITUDES required. He should be able to draw you a picture of the ideal scene for entering and maintaining the turn. When he demonstrates the first one, watch carefully the picture outside, and listen (and feel when following through) for the changes of control surfaces and the sound of the RPM increase).

In an ideal world, with constant bank held (again with the help of maintaining the right ATTITUDE), the elevator position should not have to change - it should remain in a constant position and back pressure. However in reality, you will have to adjust to changes, and fix the errors. Have a think before you fly about how to compensate for inaccuracies.

Note also, in the left hand seat, the attitudes for a Left and Right turn will be markedly different. You will be sitting lower in a left turn, and higher in a right turn....

As for all aspects of flying, attitudes is the key. And Practise. Good luck.

PS. You say that the bank angle keeps slipping off. Get some sort of workcycle incorporated into your thinking. I suggest something like "ATTITUDE - LOOKOUT - PERFORMANCE".

ATTITUDE - Is it right? If not, fix it.
LOOKOUT - Yep, do it, and look well into the turn
PERFORMANCE - Glance at an instrument, and think about it whilst you return to Step 1: Attitude (now adjust as required). And so on....

[tmmorris]

Interesting all this is about 45 deg turns. When I did a rental checkout in the states and the instructor asked for a steep turn, I rolled into 60deg (this was a PA28-161) and he went white... yet that was the standard response when I was taught (in a PA38). Surely 45 deg is fine for starters but the test standards require 60deg - don't they?

Tim

[OpenCirrus619]

Sad as it may seem Lesson 15 is now known as "Advanced Turns" - apparently "Steep Turns" sounds scary.

Also the JAR standards doc. for the PPL skill test says:
Steep turns (360 left and right - 45 bank) including recognition and recovery from a spiral dive.

OC619

[fireflybob]

Cannot see much mention of the word "attitude" here!
When I teach steep turns I firstly demonstrate the a/c in the turn (45 degrees bank say) - all I want the student to do at this stage is look at the attitude (I emphasise that I am responsible for lookout at this stage and that all I want him to do is note the attitude!) and make a mental note of it. I then ask him to take control and maintain the current attitude (whilst I still do the lookout), having previously commented on the back pressure required to maintain the attitude. (All this presuposes that the a/c is in a perfect 45 degree bank turn - constant height, on target speed, power set, bank angle 45 degrees and in balance).

I then teach rolling out and then how to enter the turn.

A common fault on entry is to look into the turn whilst rolling in. If you do so you be unlikely to notice any inadvertant change of attitude (nose up or down) as you increase the bank angle. The lookout is done BEFORE entry and then (assuming all is clear) look ahead roll in using aileron to bank, back pressure to maintain attitude and rudder to balance at the same time increasing power - you will NOT need full power for a 45 degree bank turn in the typical light a/c - certainly not a Warrior - usually an extra 150-200 rpm will suffice. When you have established the turn then start the "Lookout/Attitude/Instrument" scan.

My best advice is to go and find a good flying instructor who knows how to teach Steep Turns but that said a couple of tips:-

1. Sit in the turn for that long that it feels unusual to be flying straight! That said if the turn starts to develop into a spiral then recover to straight flight and start again! (Also it's a good idea to have an "anchor" point when practising - some easy recognisable geographical feature which will maintain your orientation after the turn is complete. Doing steep turns on a day when the upper winds are strong can be an easy way to get lost as you are drifting whilst turning etc!

2. If you start to lose a little bit of height just reduce the bank angle a few degrees (it's cheating a bit but works a treat!) as well as changing the pitch attitude. Then reestablish the bank angle when level flight has been restored.

When you have perfected the 45 degree turn then you can move onto 60 degrees bank. Also remember that in side by side seating a/c the picture will look different in left and right turns because of the offset seating.

Be aware of the a/c limitations - many light a/c require to be in the Utility Category for Steep Turns - this means a lower max weight and different cg limts and NO rear seat passengers/baggage.

Hope this helps

[eddiec]

I did steep turns in a pa28 also and had the same initial fears. I kept thinking I was going to fall out of the sky at that angle. Once I got over that though it was easy enough to get it right.
I just roll into the turn and get my bank right with the real horizon then verify with the AH. Once you have the bank right just pick a mark on the windscreen (usually a squashed fly!) and keep it in line with the horizon. I nailed it every time using this method
Good luck!

[Runaway Gun]

No fair Bob - I typed the word 'attitude' many times in my response.

Sometimes in complete capitals. Does nobody read my posts?

PS. DON'T TRIM IN THE TURNS !!

[jb5000]

As said before:

Get your instructor to show you what the steep turn attitude looks like (outside!) and make a note of the picture. Perhaps where it cuts the cowling or something like that.

Then:

1. Lookout

2. Select the steep turn attitude, whilst putting on "a bit" of power through 30 degrees AoB.

3. Lookout - Especially into the turn, particularly difficult on high wing a/c.

4. Check the attitude

5. Lookout

6. Check performance (this is altimeter - angle of bank on the Artificial horizon - ball in the middle) DONT try and fix yet - this is the next step!

7. Check the attitude and adjust as appropriate (i.e. if you have started descending then select a new attitude and hold it - DONT keep looking back to the altimeter, select a new attitude and carry on with the lookout and see how this new attitude is affecting your performance next time round)

8. Lookout

9. Return to step 4!

[fireflybob]

Runaway Gun, yes my apologies I did miss that - been a long day!

I think what I was alluding to though is that it is essential to show the student the correct attitude for a steep turn FIRST, before explaining anything else. Even the bank angle can be judged visually with practice.

Another aspect is the feeling of sustained "g". For the average PPL student (and I say this with all respect) this is probably the first time he has experienced any sustained "g" and this physiological sensation needs to be covered on the initial brief for steep turns.

Finally, if you want to get good at 45 degree bank turns then practice 60 degree banks turns! Once you have mastered a 60 bank turn, a 45 er is a piece of cake!

[RudeNot2]

Thanks for all of the above info folks.

One thing that has come to me reading your replies is that when I start banking for the turn 80% of the time I am looking in the direction of the turn as opposed to marking the horizon on the windshield. During the turn I start to climb / descend and make a balls up of it before rolling level and reducing power no where near my target heading.

RudeNot2

[michaelthewannabe]

Some very good advice on here. RudeNot2, your comment about not looking at the horizon on entering sounds right: sort that and you might find it easier.

I had my first lesson of steep turns last week, and the instructor taught me to judge it by the attitude with reference to the horizon. The aircraft does have a tendency to drop its nose, and a tendency to roll level: it takes subtle and precise control with a big heave of back-pressure to counteract that and keep the attitude correct. You can't take your eyes off the horizon for more than about two seconds, before the attitude will start to drift. So you have to have a rigorous scan: horizon, balance ball, horizon, ASI, horizon, altimeter, horizon, DI, horizon, altimeter, horizon... etc.

But it's definitely doable with a little concentration. Good luck for next time! And I hope you're enjoying the manouevre as much as I did. Loadsa fun!

[Fuji Abound]

So you have to have a rigorous scan: horizon, balance ball, horizon, ASI, horizon, altimeter, horizon, DI, horizon, altimeter, horizon... etc.

For goodness sake. Steep turns are a visual manoeuver - you are not flying on instruments.

Everyone seems to forget these days you are flying the aircraft by visual reference - learn to do that well first. To do so you don’t need any of these instruments, they will only make the job harder.

Why do you never do steep turns in IMC? -because even if your instrument flying is very good, you are chasing the instruments.

Learn to do it visually, even if it takes a lot longer, because you will develop a proper feel of the aircraft, you will know where the aircraft should be to maintain 40, 50 or 60 degrees of bank, and you will know whether or not you are climbing.

In short maintain the correct attitude as has already been said and you will execute a good steep turn.

[michaelthewannabe]

Steep turns are a visual manoeuver - you are not flying on instruments.

uh... every other item in that "scan" was the external visual reference: I said "horizon", not "artificial horizon" or AI. It's what my instructor briefed me to do, and much to my surprise it resulted in passably well-executed steep turns on the first attempt. So I give the technique some merit.

If you're good enough to fly a steep turn in perfect balance with zero altitude change and no chance of the speed falling dangerously low, purely from the horizon, then fine - no need to look at the instruments. But as a 25-hour student flying the manoeuvre for the first time, that seems to be an unrealistic and possibly foolhardy aim.

Learn to do it visually, even if it takes a lot longer, because you will develop a proper feel of the aircraft, you will know where the aircraft should be to maintain 40, 50 or 60 degrees of bank, and you will know whether or not you are climbing.

Ultimately, I agree. You don't want to worry about the instruments when the dot in the sky suddenly gets bigger.

[Fuji Abound]

uh... every other item in that "scan" was the external visual reference:

I know, it was the every other item that worried me. :)

Whats so wrong with just the horizon?

If you maintain your position on the horizon, and have set approximately the correct power, nothing is going to happen to your speed.

Why would you want to look at the DI? I cant think of a single practical reason why you would want to roll out of a steep turn on a heading. If you start doing aeros you will learn to roll out on a visual reference feature to maintain your position in the box.

As I said before, a flick of the eyes down to altimeter is helpful when you are learning, and IMHO that is all the is required otherewise you will over use the instruments.

I am not suggesting you will fly it perfectly - that is why the instructor is there. However ultimately your technique will be far better and you will be good enough to pass the test.

I know, I know there has been more emphasis placed on instrument training and we all become accustomed to using the instruments more. However flying some circuits with the instruments covered including the ASI and getting use to flying steep turns by reference to the real horizon are all good excercises for giving you a better "feel" of the aircraft and a better awareness that the aircraft is getting too slow or too fast.

[michaelthewannabe]

OK Fuji, we'll differ. I was passing on briefing from my instructor that worked surprisingly well for me.


As I said before, a flick of the eyes down to altimeter is helpful when you are learning, and IMHO that is all the is required otherewise you will over use the instruments.

As a low-hours student, I don't yet have an intuitive ability to maintain balance, especially when flying unusual and energetic manoeuvres. So I have to check the balance ball. Same for throttle setting, so I have to check (just once or twice) that the speed isn't dropping towards the increased stall speed. The instructor asked for a 180 or a 360 and ground references weren't the clearest due to haze, so I had to use the DI to help maintain orientation.

Out of interest, how is the steep turn examined on the skills test? Does the examiner typically ask for a turn through a specified angle (e.g. a 180), or onto a heading? Or is it just to be held until the examiner asks the candidate to roll out?

I agree that in good VMC, I should ultimately aim to be able to do the manouevre without reference to instruments.

[Fuji Abound]

It was just a glance at the instruments and after doing it a couple of times I found it easy enough to hold the nose at a particular attitude

Yep, good for you. I think it works.

michaelthewannabe

Yes, I know you did it that way because your instructor said so - and rightly so. It worked for you.

All I am suggesting is give it a go my way as well if your rinstructor will let you. You may be surprised that if you set the throttle correctly to start (and you now know where it should be) and really concentrate on the horizon and nothing else it will work well as G-EMMA has found.

I agree you need a reasonable horizon.

Ask your instructor what your examiner will require - he will know.

[Deano777]

Forget everything else, if you fly the attitude you will fly the steep turn. The key to the turns are quite simply attitude.

So eyes out the cockpit and use LOOKOUT ATTITUDE INSTRUMENTS

On the instruments use B.A.B or Bank Angle - Altitude - Balance.

Lookout - Attitude - Bank
Lookout - Attitude - Altitude
Lookout - Altitude - Balance.

So the instruments are just being used as a guide to what's going on, BUT you should be able to cover up the instruments with a map and fly 45° turns by using JUST the attitude.

As you are sat on the left if you do a left turn then the right hinge line should be just about on the horizon, if you're in the right turn your left hinge line should be about 1" below. (all specific to seat height of course)

So to reiterate - fly the attitude :)

[BackPacker]

The other thing to remember with a steep turn is that it teaches you the correct technique to get out of a spiral dive.

Go back to your steep turn lessons and try to remember what the instructor said when you were losing height throughout the turn. What he should have told you is to simply roll out of the turn a bit (to 20-30 degrees bank angle or so), then pitch up, then roll in again. Why? Because when you're at bank angles of 45 degrees or more, pitching "up" with the yoke will to a large extent only serve to increase the turn rate.

Same with the spiral dive. You are in a steeply banked turn because your attention lapsed for a few seconds, losing altitude fast. If you pull, you're just increasing the turn rate and the g loading, and you are already above Va so you might even damage the airplane. So FIRST roll out of the turn to the level attitude, then SECOND carefully pull out of the dive. (Most likely speed is increasing to Vno or even Vne and engine is nearing redline, so you also need to close the throttle.)

That same automatic recovery (roll out then pull) is what you should apply in a steep turn (45 degrees bank) if you start to lose height - although if you're quickly enough to catch your descend you don't have to close the throttle in this case.