Who, if anyone, would YOU have been speaking to?

[Il Duce]

Overheard on 121.5 today. Pilot calls to say that he has been working the East Mids frequency but is unsure of his position and E. Mids can't find him on radar. D&D fix his position as 2nm NE of Market Drayton. No problem then? By my reckoning that's over 45 miles from East Mids and in the combined Shawbury/Tern Hill MATZ (helicopter "bandit" country). After D&D ask if he requires any further assistance, the pilot says that he's heading for an airfield in Cumbria and just wants to make sure that he's not near any controlled airspace. D&D point out that he's approaching the Liverpool/Manchester complex and to stand by whilst they get him an appropriate frequency to get a transit through that area. "But I haven't got a transponder." says the pilot. From the tone of that reply I got the distinct impression that he thought that if he had no transponder he couldn't get an ATC service.
My point here is to seek the opinions/views of other flyers on planning a route, to whom they would speak to along the route and what they would expect from those agencies with regard to navigation assistance etc.
(This was a single prop at about 2000')

[Fuji Abound]

My point here is to seek the opinions/views of other flyers on planning a route, to whom they would speak to along the route and what they would expect from those agencies with regard to navigation assistance etc.

Forgive me for saying, but I am not sure whether this is a wind up or a genuine question. It should have been covered at least to some extent during your PPL and put into practice on your x-country. However, it could be you just havent done much x-country, and it is a more detailed concern about the planning involved.

If I plan a route in the UK I will aim to receive a LARS service if one is available. Any of the good flight guides will give you a good idea of the area covered and the frequency of the nearest LARS and their times of service.

If a LARS is not available and the route is going to take you close to class D then it is worth seeing if they will give you a service outside CAS or if not work the approriate London info.

The only other aspect to consider is if your route will take you close to any other ATZs or fields with a published frequency. If so you might consider a courtesy call or obviously if you wish to transit an ATZ or a MATZ a mandatory call.

[Merritt]

This is interesting because as a newly qualified PPL I would take the following approach...

- request the highest available VFR service (RIS) from a nearby RADAR capable ATC
- if service not available or out of range stick to FIS but always in contact with someone (if only for my own sanity & because our club a/c all have transponders)

I also like to route via other airfields (being careful not to fly thru ATZ without permission) for two reasons.. If the aircraft goes technical it gives me easy options and also the cheat system (GPS) on our a/c all have a minimum of 'go to' support so its very easy to get a bearing and distance from the next waypoint...

[putsonflamesuitandwaits]


Steve

[englishal]

Depends....

RIS if it is cruddy weather.

If no RIS available, I won't bother talking to anyone if I am outside CAS, unless I am over water or require a transit.

[dublinpilot]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Are you trying to criticise the pilot who got lost, simply carrying out a survey, or trying to learn who best to talk to in that area?

For what it's worth, given that the flight was taking place on a week day, I'd probably have been speaking to Shawsbury who I believe operate a LARS service there during the week. If it was a weekend, and I was heading north, then possibly try Birmingham or East Midlands for a RIS (not sure if I'd get it). Which one would depend on what route I'd taken to get the the reported location of the aircraft. At the location where the pilot was found, if I was speaking to Birmingham or EM, I'd probably be looking for a frequency change to Liverpool.

For what it's worth, last Sunday I flew south from just west of WAL, to Oswestry, to EGBJ. That's tracking north/south about 18-20nm west of the pilots reported position, and once Liverpool let me go, I didn't bother talking to anyone else except EGBJ. Why? Because I didn't want or need any service that I could get. Liverpool suggested a freecall to Hawarden. As far as I know they don't have a radar, so no RIS would be available (never has been before). Didn't figure I'd get a RIS from Birmingham in my location. London Info can't give me a RIS, and I didn't need any flight plans opened, didn't need any weather info etc, nor did I need an alerting service from them (not over water at this point), so I couldn't see the point in wasting their time looking for a FIS that I didn't want. By the time I would have gotten within Brize Norton's range, I'd have been thinking of changing to EGBJ anyway. So I enjoyed the view, manoeuvred around the couple of aircraft I spotted, and listened in to EGBJ until I got closer (well actually until I heard them call and ask if I was on frequency). By then I had a good picture of what was going on there, runway in use, pressure settings etc ;)

dp

[IO540]

In the example given, I would "have words" with the instructor....... this is really bad.

As to who to talk to, I generally talk to nobody unless they are going to give me a radar service.

[Rod1]

It would have been possible to do all the xc bits non radio if the pilot had wished.

Rod1

[High Wing Drifter]

Dublin,

My experience a couple of years ago was that Birmingham were uncooperative but East Mids bend over backwards. However, that was also my perception of Southampton but I recently have no problems slicing up the Southampton and Gatwick zones, even if I stutter a bit during the message :oh:

But I wonder if transits would have been possible sans xponder?

[Contacttower]

Southampton has let me through with only a primary return before, I claimed I had a transponder (which I did) but for whatever reason they weren't getting it. There wasn't much around so they let me transit.

[dublinpilot]

HWD,

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but suspect you've misinterpertited something I said.

If you are refering to
For what it's worth, given that the flight was taking place on a week day, I'd probably have been speaking to Shawsbury who I believe operate a LARS service there during the week. If it was a weekend, and I was heading north, then possibly try Birmingham or East Midlands for a RIS (not sure if I'd get it).

then I was simply answering the question of who I would talk to. I wasn't suggesting that the pilot should look for a transit, as there was nothing in the original post to suggest that they needed or wanted a transit.

If you're refering to my own flight then, I certainly wouldn't have needed or wanted a transit....it would have been well out of my way ;)

If you were simply saying that EM are likely to give a RIS when requested, but Birmingham aren't so good, then I've misinterpertited your post (which I've understood to be about transists not RIS), but appreciate the information ;)

dp

[High Wing Drifter]

Dublin,

Not sure myself. Assuming Service=RIS or Transit. Just using my recent positive transit experiences compared to my negative experiences a while back and extrapolating to potential conclusion that things generally may have improved on the service front as a whole.

Contacttower,

Good to hear/read.

[Chilli Monster]

But I wonder if transits would have been possible sans xponder?

I have no problem with giving transponderless transits under certain conditions. As a general rule lower is better than higher, routeing via the overhead is more likely than in the climb out.

[magpienja]

I was listening into this one as well today, the guy did seem unsure of what was going on, heard him say been flying for donkeys years, comes back as a piper cub.

Nick.

[Knight Paladin]

I'd echo many of the comments already made - I see little point in a FIS unless overflying a particularly sparsely populated area, and even then I'm not sure about the legalities/practicalities of a FIS provider initiating some kind of SAR response if they lost comms. I'd probably therefore just maintain a listening watch on Guard in such a case, with a view to getting out a rapid bleat for help if anything went wrong. However, as previoulsy said, in crummy weather or in an area of known high traffic density, I'd probably look to get a RIS if possible - see and avoid being a very dodgy principle to rely on in my book. I'd also listen in to to the controlling authority for any zones I was transiting close to (say, 5 miles or so), and talk to them if they weren't working like a one-.armed paper-hanger.

DP - Hawarden do indeed have a radar, and, if memory serves, can clear you through the lower levels of the airways structure near to them if so desired. Think they rely on Liverpool for SSR though. Without wanting to sound like I'm having too much of a dig, why did you choose to use the ICAO designator for wherever you were headed in your above post? If it was an airfield I knew then I too would be likely to know it, and if so bothered I could easily go find out .... but why not just use the name of the airfield, such that everyone knows exactly what you're talking about? Or does it make you feel like a big boy to use the ICAO? ;)

[scooter boy]

"just wants to make sure that he's not near any controlled airspace. D&D point out that he's approaching the Liverpool/Manchester complex and to stand by whilst they get him an appropriate frequency to get a transit through that area. "But I haven't got a transponder." says the pilot. From the tone of that reply I got the distinct impression that he thought that if he had no transponder he couldn't get an ATC service."

I would imagine that the dubious tone from ATC related to the fact that he was clueless about his location rather than that he had no transponder.:}

Clueless about location + no XPDR = potential problem

SB

[FullyFlapped]

I'd echo many of the comments already made - I see little point in a FIS unless overflying a particularly sparsely populated area
I think we need to be careful here. Where you can't get/don't need RIS, there are plenty of FIS services around (particularly from "regional airports" where available) which will do their level best to pass useful traffic info etc, even though it's not really their responsibility.

Far better, I think, to be tuned to anyone who might be able to help you, rather than keeping schtum ....

FF :ok:

[Fuji Abound]

I think we need to be careful here. Where you can't get/don't need RIS, there are plenty of FIS services around (particularly from "regional airports" where available) which will do their level best to pass useful traffic info etc, even though it's not really their responsibility.

I agree.

I never understand those who say I dont both with a FIS.

Fact of the matter is if pilots dont bother then the service is degraded for everyone.

It can provide some warning of traffic. Times are many when GX expected over XXX at time on the hour at FL40, and you realise you are going to be there at nearly the same time and level.

Secondly, if you have a problem you are already on frequency, no fiddling with the radio.

It annoys me even more those who listen onto a a FIS but dont take part.

A FIS takes one quick call to sign on with and maybe that is the only time you speak.

Those my views anyway.

[bigdunk]

I think Fully Flapped is correct a lot of regional airports will help a aircraft recieving a FIS with traffic info even if they are not willing to offer a RIS also i feel that it helps all parties and is good flight safety to be talking and reporting. In the event of an emergency you can declare without tuning your radio and as the captain of the aeroplane its my responsibility to conduct the flight in the safest manner possible i would feel that if i am not in reciept of any kind of service that is available arguably i could be critisised.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

What's this

MATZ a mandatory call

Pray tell?

Are we confusing "should do" with "must do"?

[bigdunk]

must do technically no should do ! yes with potentially fast jets heavy transport rotary commercial and instrument traffic at most Military airfields The MATZ is there for a reason. Again this is all part of the flight safety issue how can you choose to be selective.:ugh:

[Fuji Abound]

Yes, when I re-read by post I nearly changed it. You are of course correct that a call for MATZ crossing is not mandatory.

[BluntM8]

Yeah, kinda. As I understand it, the Matz crossing call isn't mandatory, but it is a really really good idea!

For the most part, military traffic is likely to be predictable - we're trying to get to 5nm on the extended centreline for a VRIAB or 10nm for an instrument recovery BUT you can't assume that, and there may be allsorts going on - PFLs, Instrument traffic, low speed handling checks in the overhead.

Every military ATCO I've spoken to - which is a fair number! - has no qualms about helping you out and will be glad to accommodate a Matz-crosser! (And if you're embarassed about your standards of R/T you should hear me on UHF when I'm maxed out - you'd feel a whole world better!)

Blunty

[dublinpilot]

Without wanting to sound like I'm having too much of a dig, why did you choose to use the ICAO designator for wherever you were headed in your above post? If it was an airfield I knew then I too would be likely to know it, and if so bothered I could easily go find out .... but why not just use the name of the airfield, such that everyone knows exactly what you're talking about? Or does it make you feel like a big boy to use the ICAO?

No, it just saved me having to look up how to spell the airport's name correctly ;)

[Fuji Abound]

Yeah, kinda. As I understand it, the Matz crossing call isn't mandatory, but it is a really really good idea!

Agreed - and that is why I hesitated with my original post.

A clearance cannot be given and a request for a crossing is not mandatory, BUT personally I can see no reason why on earth you would not make clear your intentions to ensure that traffic can be co-ordinated to everyone's benefit.

There is also the obvious gotcha that what at first glance may appear a MATZ (because prima facie it surrounds an RAF base) is in fact class D and of course in that evet a clearance is a pre-requisite.

[Il Duce]

Thank you all for your views. I'm happy with those that have stated "if I'm good VMC and well clear of any airfields, their associated patterns and restricted airspace I'll see and avoid and not speak to anyone". I'm also happy with those replies concerning the use of the LARS (where and when it's available).
My concerns in this specific case are, firstly, that the pilot was not speaking to the most approriate agency for his route (why East Mids when Shawbury would have been ideal). Secondly, the impression I got from his transmission regarding not having a transponder meaning no radar service was just a "feeling in my water" and, as contacttower and chilli monster have said, that shouldn't prevent ATC providing a radar service (unless operating SSR only) - is this widely known?
Dublinpilot, I'm certainly not criticising the pilot for being lost - we've all done that (or, at least, been temporarily unsure of position). Good on the pilot for realising it and calling for a fix on 121.5 rather than ploughing on into a patch of airspace that he shouldn't have been in.