abusing pilots must stop

[return my investment]

Like most of my fellow pilots I choose to be a pilot because of my love of flying. That love of flying took me to the flight schools which fed me the full load of crap about how I must train in the UK, how I must do this and that and how all their students get into the airlines. I only realised how much the industry revolves around lies and deception when it was too late - I was only ever going to get enough of a return on my investment to pay my debts by getting a salary flying an aircraft.
After completing all of my training and spending ten of thousands of pounds I was in the privileged position of being able to post my CV to anyone who owned an aircraft - I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, a job you are not going to get because you do not have the experience OR, in this day and age, you have not spent enough money i.e. you do not have a type rating.
Spending a considerable time unemployed, fending off banks and credit card and watching my family fall apart I was offered a sniff of a job on a turbo-prop...if I payed for the rating. Choice = bankrupt or pay more money. I thought sod it and got an interest free credit card and paid for the rating and if it all goes wrong then I will be bankrupt with a rating.
I started the job, was paid pea-nuts via an agency (an agency I later learned took 80% of the money the airline spent for me).
After that job I was offered a job on the A320, i took it but the airline takes cash from me each month.
Basically, I will spend many many years just paying for the privilage of going to work and making the airlines richer.
I took years out of my life, spent lots of money, lost money due to no salary during training - it will be years before I get back to where I should be.
Then I read threads from 'management' about how us pilots should pay for rating.....it makes me sick! We pay for PPL, hours building, ATPL, CPL, ME, IR, MCC, renewals, medicals and now ratings well I think it's about time pilots started to give the airline management a slap across the face. Pilots need to toughen up and actively discourage 'would be's' from taking up this profession....I wish someone had turned me off the idea as I would certainly not be in this debt, would not have had to study like crazy and I would now be getting more salary and better treatment from a different industry.
Fellow pilots - make sure you tell 'would be's' the truth and do all you can to change their minds. Tell them how many years they will be set back. Tell them to get another career and do a PPL and fly for FUN because airline management have taken that away from the airlines for sure.
- be supportive of each other and if that means tough action against the airlines then so be it.
It's about time the management realised how lucky they are to have guys and girls like us.
START SPEAKING UP! LET'S GET BACK TO THE TIMES WHEN THE AIRLINES PAID FOR EVERYTHING FROM PPL TO JETS. NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT -SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO FLY ALL THE AIRCRAFT THAT ARE ON ORDER LETS NOT DO IT FOR FREE! MANAGEMENT - start looking for cadets and get your wallets out!

[Token Bird]

Mate, you're wasting your time with this lot. The industry has gone completely to the dogs and there'll be no getting it back anytime soon. Although many of us agree that paying for type-ratings is unethical, there are so many qualified unemployed pilots out there that even the proportion who are willing to pay for type-ratings provide sufficient crew for the airlines.

Much as it would amuse me greatly to organise an action whereby every unemployed wannabe out there refused to pay for TRs and held the airlines for ransom, this will never happen. There will always be people willing to pay for type-ratings. You can't get everyone to unite against the greedy airlines.

If you read a lot of the posts on here about the old SSTR debate, you'll see the same kind of themes. Lots of people disagree with the SSTR on principle (or so they claim) but will come up with a variety of excuses as to why they are going for one themselves. Excuses such as:

1. I'm over 35 so have to get a TR to compete with you younger people
2. I have a mortgage
3. I have a wife and/or children

In other words, they will try to convince the people on this forum that they need the job more than the rest of us. The truth of the matter is that the majority of pilots care little for their fellow pilot. There is no real solidarity. Most wannabes care only about their own job prospects, their own success, the comfort of themselves and their family. It is neither here nor there to most of these people whether by paying for a type-rating they are making it that much more difficult for the wannabes that come after that, or hammering another nail into the coffin of what used to be a great industry to work in.

As for warning people not to embark on an airline career in the first place, as a former instructor I always made sure I did this whenever some fresh-faced ignorant youth wandered into my flying school asking about 'becoming an airline pilot'. Many of them seemed frankly shocked by the cost of it and the poor chances of employment afterwards (one guy thought you could work for an airline with only a PPL!) I probably did manage to put several people off, but you won't put off the really keen (or stubborn) ones. There are many people who do their research, realise the low chances of success and yet still go ahead with the training. I was one of those. Some people just like to take the risk anyway. I do agree though, after having spent many years in the flight training industry, that a large proportion of the trainees have clearly done no research whatsoever! They seem to discover this forum a bit too late,

TB

[Phileas Fogg]

Return,
You say you chose flying because of your love of it, you knew that it was an expensive, yet highly paid, business before you entered into it.

You carry on to say that you do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, well you knew that it was expensive before you ventured into it and do you think that a taxi, bus or truck driver is going to be in a position to apply for those jobs without the appropriate training.

The aviation industry owes you nothing, you entered into it because of your love of it in preference to less expensive trained positions as already mentioned, so what if you had wanted to be a F1 racing driver or an astronaut, are those industries meant to fall over backwards for you just because of your love for it?

[tom775257]

Yes, if I could turn back time I wish I could tell myself not to bother flying professionally. I love flying, so PPL flying is what I should have stuck with, flying a jet isn't as great as you'd imagine. It's fun the first time, however after you are working and another all-nighter getting paid peanuts while your friends work monday to friday earning more than you, without having to land a jet with 170 pax at night with a gusty cross-wind into Africa, it starts to loose its appeal! Other such fun as being tested every 6 months, medical every year etc.

Remember it is just a job at the end of the day. Oh yes, and I still have a few loans to pay back. If I can land a job in the UK this autumn, I think I should be financially ok perhaps by age 30 if I live frugally. Alas, all my trainee pilot buddies say they wish they could be where I am now :uhoh:


If you really want to scratch the itch about flying something bigger I would suggest hiring a sim (if that is allowed these days?). I know too many people who have wasted so much money and time on training commercially to never get a job. I know you think that it will be the best thing ever to be a professional pilot (Well at least I did), but..... just think carefully before you invest lots of money and time. Your chances of success are slim. Even my out of work integrated chums will tell you that (I was modular).

Take it easy, Tom.

[shaun ryder]

I agree with the previous posts completely. It is sad to see the number of wannabees posting on here with aspirations that are just so wildly out of proportion. I am sometimes shocked to read of the people, established in a well paid professional job. Who are willing to sacrifice their secuirity and embark on a quest in search of nothing but a pipe dream. Alot of the time these people are not exactly wet behind the ears and have young families to support. I cant see the sense? Once in your thirties for example, you will want the nice car and the lovely home. I could not imagine anything worse than the thought of a life debt hanging over my head at such an age. Yes being a pilot is great, you get some lovely views alright. But as so many find out, paying a debt for the rest of your life is crap. Some are lucky I suppose because they have completed their quest and landed that job in the flight deck. The novelty soon wears off I say. My advice to some would be to keep the PPL and enjoy your comfortable life. Re mortgaging houses etc in a crazy gamble to win the right seat in an airliner these days just cant be right??
Remember, you work to live. Not the other way around.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Mind you, he is right you know.
But the problem is that all pilots, one way or another, prostitute themselves for their trade!
Pilots are so individual and disparate that I am not at all sure that flying aeroplanes merits description as a profession. It's more a trade, composed of many different practitioners, each contributing his own skill but with no ethos or ethic for the common good.
Pilots simply do not possess the quality of collective enterprise. Thus one cannot entirely blame the people who provide the flying job for taking merciless advantage of what some might describe as a collective character flaw of monstrous proportions.
Bye the bye, the writer is a professional pilot of ancient years whose comments, whilst not meant in any way to be insulting to others, are probably a reflection of reality.
Sadly with a :)

[EZYramper]

Mr Investment,

I disagree with your post, not because I am an Airline Pilot, but because you're just trying to push your opinion on everyone, yours just happens to be a negative opinion.

You shouldn't be telling people not to be pilots. I've heard from other pilots that they love their job, why is your opinion any more valid then theirs?

What should be happening is pilots should be giving a balanced, realistic explanation of what the job entails. Their are ups and their are downs.

[L A James]

Chuffin' hell... this forum is challenging my resolve to 'follow my dream'.

I am a wannabe who is "working to live" and has pretty much reached the end of his tether in the world of the office rat race. I have wanted to fly since my first ride in an RAF Hercules as a snotty 6yr old. Since then I've applied to RAF, Fleet Air Arm, Army Air Corps, BA, Flybe and BMI sponsorship schemes. I have also recently applied to OAT: Bond and Air Atlantic sponsorships. All the while, I'm chugging through the usual training routes. I once wrote a letter to every flying school in the UK asking for sponsorship to FI level in return for a 15yr commitment. Naive, I know. Maybe some of you FIs actually opened one of my letters.

I have recently presented to HSBC for a loan of 50k and am really nervous about following this route as I may well end up like you, Return, or Mr. Corleone. But what else can I do? I'm 27 already and have done well in the office world but have been struggling with uni debts... which has limited me in my self funded training. I fly para motors and microlights for enjoyment but will go insane soon unless I can folow the career I've always wanted.

Speaking of Mr. Corleone, this thread seems to be a direct follow on from "where are all the jobs then?" Return - you're not actually Vito Corleone in disguise are you?!!

The attitude of the low cost airlines won't change unless wannabee pilots join forces with qualified pilots in employment in order to act. This, obviously, is pie in the sky. Therefore, it will continue to be a ridiculous gamble. I have to confess, it's a gamble that I will take because I have to before I lose that snotty 6yr old forever.

L A

[potkettleblack]

Unfortunately the abuse won't stop, well not that I can see for a number of reasons:

- becoming a pilot these days is a process of self selection. Any tom dick or harriette can wake up and decide that they will become a pilot. Put in some work and hey presto, same licence as we all have no matter whether you have the aptitude to stick at the job in the long term. Go to the CAA in Gatwick if you don't believe me and sit and watch all the wannabes coming in each day to get their licences signed off. My guess is 10 a day on average.

- it is cheaper than ever to become a pilot in real terms which makes it more accessible

- cash is easier to get hold of. Just depends how much risk you are willing to take and if your wallet can hold all of the free credit cards that lenders are willing to offer you

- type ratings are easily accessible and if done at a school with so called "contacts" then you can find yourself into the RHS of a jet relatively easily. Usual caveats apply of course and you will still need to pass the entry tests/interviews.

- cockpit automation and reliability of aircraft. In the eyes of the public the jets just fly themselves around and we are seen to do nothing in getting them from A to B. Most people I think assume we do Cat 3 autolands day in and day out and have no idea that we actually do still handfly for parts of the flight! Management listen to this hearsay and duly dumb down our pay and conditions.

- the likes of FR have taken cost cutting to a new dimension. Other carriers cite FR as their model and main competitor even when this is not the case in order to reduce costs. This is cited at pay reviews and flows down through the whole business model. Cost cutting itself in my opinion is the easy way to make profit in a business. The harsh reality for airlines and the CEO is that it is much harder to actually go out and generate revenues and profit at the same time. Much easier for a CEO to come in and slash and burn and then move on after a few years when they realise that there is actually a job to be done in growing the business.

Previously you couldn't get near a jet with 200 hours unless you had jumped through various hoops at the integrated schools and were in the top 5-10% of your class. The airlines would cite "training risk" as the big factor in declining most applications from low houred/old timers/those that didn't fit their mould whatever that was. Nowadays with the accessibility of self funded type ratings the airlines are more likely to say oh well if they are useless at least we wouldn't have spent a whole lot of our training budget on them. Pay for it yourself line training programmes go further to give wannabes the much needed commercial experience.

All in all I don't see it getting any better. If anything all we can do is to hope that we can try and hold onto the terms and conditions that we have at present.

[bobster1]

so what if you had wanted to be a F1 racing driver or an astronaut, are those industries meant to fall over backwards for you just because of your love for it?

The benefits look pretty good!
But the pay is crap $39000 start upto max $79000

http://nasajobs.nasa.gov/benefits/benefits.htm

Just to cheer everyone up!

[windriver]

The benefits look pretty good!
But the pay is crap $39000 start upto max $79000


Sounds interesting. Do you have to self sponsor the 1000 hrs in the T38 and then do the Shuttle Type Rating?

[Re-Heat]

I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job

Investment banking - up to $80,000 p.a. for an MBA - very few sponsorships
Law - GBP 20k p.a. for BPP law school - half of class is unsponsored
Medicine (in the U.S.) - undergrad and postgrad all funded by self - no guarantee of a job.
Jobs requiring Masters' degrees - many to mention and few are sponsored: chartered surveyor etc.

I could go on, but the statement made by the OP is simply untrue.

[Vito Corleone]

No, it is not me, however I wholly agree with what this guy has said. He, like me is man enough to admit that he has been taken for a fool by themsleves and the aviation industry. "Return on my investment", full marks for having the balls to admit this.

The trap has a number of phases:

1. U have a job which doesnt fulfill you and you dream of doing something u enjoy for a living which pays well. You want to do something which you enjoy, and which will also pay you a decent wage.

2. You have a think and go ahah! Pilot! Great job, fly all over the world etc, plus airline pilots earn lots of money dont they!

3. You look into flying training and go round a few flying schools, who tell you- u can get your FATPL for 30grand, plus theres loads of jobs out there, get first time passes in exams and skill tests and ull be sorted. You think 30grand, a fair bit of cash but perhaps not a bad price to pay for a good career and life, plus ull earn it back in a few years, no problem. You do a bit of research into the job market, ok it might be hard to get a job with low hours, but people do. Ill approach it with a good atitude, make my own luck and Ill be sorted.

4. you do your training, 30k turns into 40k, turns into 60+K if you go out and get a FI ratng, pay for a TR, etc.

5. you finish training, then try to get a job. Nothing happens, dispite your best efforts. You realise that your expectations when you started training aren't gonna happen any time soon and that you've basically made a very big mistake. You realise, when you come down from the excitement and promise of being an airline pilot that you have been a fool.

This trap is not the fault of the aviation industry directly, wannabe pilots are victims their own naivety.

I seriously think that managers of flying schools actually think we are all mad. The flying schools have a never ending stream of idiots prepared to put money in their pockets, the airlines have a never ending stream of idiots who are prepared to pay for training which they should pay for, its plain business sense to take advantage of them.

[Orvil]

Hi all, I couldn't resist the irony but found this at the bottom of the last post.


Commercial Pilot Training
CAPT Airline Pilot School, Florida! 14-Months to an Airline Pilot Job
CAPTprogram.com

I kind of agree with all of you to a certain extent. Yes, it's cost a fortune and theres no guarentee of any job after "qualifying" . However, most of whinning and pain is well, to put it bluntly, self-inflicted.

It as taken me 6 years to get my fATPL, I have worked my proverbials off, had two jobs for all of the 6 years, and no social, no summer holidays (unless) flying or training. Heres some of my second jobs I 've had:

- shelf-stacking, factory work, security, leaflet dropping and I've done medical experiments (not bad money £3600 for a months work tax free!!!:eek:)

So I'm pretty fed up of reading about new pilots feeling robbed because they where stupid enough to borrow £60,000 to £100,000 and go to a big school and not get a job.

We are suppose to be intelligent people, but has the adage says "if it's too good to be true it probably is"

As for "standing up" to the airlines, hell will freeze over before that happens. I'm in both the "unions" and each say they don't agree with SSTR but guess what? pick up any of there mags and count the adverts from organisations who, you guessed it!, SSTR!!

The so-called representatives of "US" don't even have the balls to say no to an advert!!!

We have no chance.

I wish everybody the best of British luck and hope it all works out.

Orvil

[CamelhAir]

However, with the general lack now of EXPERIANCED pilots i think you are going to start to see industry wide improvments in T+C's due to airlines being forced to "head hunt".
Not gonna happen soon. The market maker in Europe, ryanair, actively discourages experience as it costs. Wait til other airlines start to think they too can get by with bugger all experience. It's all maths. It's cheaper to pay everyone :mad: all and loose a couple of aircraft than actually pay for safety.
And it's not just management, pilots too. Witness all the threads here that think that as long as people are trained properly, low experience doesn't matter.
Potkettleblack, your assessment is correct.
We're our own worst enemies and by the time we realise that (which everyone eventually does) it's too late, and anyway, I've yet to meet a wannabe who isn't convinced they know better than all the experienced pilots, that they will somehow have a different experience, so you're banging your head on a brick wall.
RIP professional pilot.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Not gonna happen soon.

:confused:

But its already happening! Flybe even had pretty girls chasing us around the terminal a few months ago. :ok:

[VFE]

Excuse me whilst I stiffle a yawn. :rolleyes:

VFE.

[BelArgUSA]

Gentlemen -
xxx
Read my posts in the North American Forum "USA Pilot Shortage"...
It is not any different than your situation in UK or Europe.
You are out of your mind to pay a penny for a rating, and buy yourself a job.
And what job...? Underpaid...?
xxx
The winners are (1) flight schools (2) airlines (particularly LCCs)...
They laugh on their way to the banks to make their deposits...
Whose fault...? - YOURS
In the old days, you would have paid CPL/IR/ME... nada más - rien de plus...
Some airlines operated their own school and paid trainees during training.
But an idiot started this, in the mid-1970s, of offering to pay for his rating, and buy himself a job.
So the next idiots did the same...
And it is getting worse ever since... MCC this, then fATPL that, then jet rating, here we go...!
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Superpilot]

Due to increased use of air transportation, the job of a pilot was always destined to become less respected, glamorous, rewarding and compensating. Anything, whether it be a product/technology or service depreciates. Along with the depreciation occurs a depreciation of the employee group which provide that product/service.

Airlines such as Ryanair with their staggering growth and success have brought this reality forward sooner than most would’ve expected.

However, if what I have stated above is true how come train drivers and bus drivers haven’t been abused yet? The answer is actually quite simple, if a person cannot get a job as a train driver he/she does one of the following: A.) Do another job and sit tight for a few years re-applying if need be. B.) Find a new career.

What does a Wannabe Airline pilot do?

C.) Offer’s their services for free. D.) Offers to pay double the price for a type rating which the Airline would otherwise be forced to pay for itself.

Train companies are not (through Union terms) allowed to take advantage of C and D above and in truth, in this capitalist culture, that’s the only reason preventing them! However Airlines for some short-sighted reasons are allowed to take advantage of C and D and they do! BALPA are the only people who can stop this happening but will they?

Employed pilots are always advising wannabes to stop paying for this and that but in reality ONLY THEY can make it happen through Union action as they are on the inside! WHEN WILL THEY REALISE THIS AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

[Phileas Fogg]

I love BelArg'a argument of how it was in the old days,
Well in the old days, the good old days, many guys would spend perhaps their entire careers on turbo-props, a jet job would just be a dream, now guys can get straight in on a jet, with only perhaps 200 hours total time, and they have to dig in their pockets to get there, oh dear.

Oh yes, the old days, when the Bank Manager was a respected figure in the community, who does one get to talk to now, a damn call centre located somewhere in India!

Every industry moves with the times and aviation has to move also, the men in their flying machines are no longer regarded as 'magnificent' :)

[boogie-nicey]

I don't think BelArgUSA was necessarily trying to recite the 'good old days' per se but attempting to highlight the status of the aviation industy in modern times against the preconceived ideas of today's wannabe brigade.

Nevertheless it's also to hear the experiences of those that have trod this or any path in life. Any such advice must surely be worth it's weight in gold. :ok:

[VFE]

The industry has changed drastically in the last 7 years since I first started sniffing around it. Back then a SSTR was an extreme rarity but now it has almost become the norm. The cost of an integrated course was less than £50K and banks still gave out PSL's like they were giving out sweets...

The employment conditions have changed for the worse which largely came about as a result of 911. However, following 911 wannabe's started thinking up new ways to get ahead of their opposition and, just like the MCC (where airlines once footed the bill) they chose to pay more money for more training.

That is the fault of the student pilot - not the employers, dear boys.

To be honest threads like this wind me up because it just goes to show the poor mentality of some people out there who assume the airlines owe them a living. They do not. YOU and I both chose to follow our career path - nobody held a gun to our heads. It is frustrating that the financial effort is now greater to jump that final hurdle but as a group of individuals we failed to unite when things got tough and therefore now pay the consequences of those selfish actions.

It pays little to lay blame elsewhere other than yer own doorsteps and the doorsteps of fellow trainee's so quit bitching otherwise you'll develop one hell of a chip on your shoulder which will only hamper your goal even more.

VFE.

[Rj111]

Just like you can't achieve perpetual motion you will never beat the laws of supply and demand either.

If there are less jobs than applicants then airlines are going to pay you less and expect better entry qualifications. Your wage constitues how replaceable you are, not how diffcult or demanding your job is. The instablity of the industry affects the airlines as bad as it affects us, so they are going to do everything in their power to save money and stay afloat.

There is nothing we are ever going to be able to do about it. If pilots start playing hard ball then other pilots are going to jump in in their place. So you might as well get onboard and live with it, or go and do/persue another job.

[SNS3Guppy]

Like most of my fellow pilots I choose to be a pilot because of my love of flying. That love of flying took me to the flight schools which fed me the full load of crap about how I must train in the UK, how I must do this and that and how all their students get into the airlines. I only realised how much the industry revolves around lies and deception when it was too late - I was only ever going to get enough of a return on my investment to pay my debts by getting a salary flying an aircraft.
After completing all of my training and spending ten of thousands of pounds I was in the privileged position of being able to post my CV to anyone who owned an aircraft - I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, a job you are not going to get because you do not have the experience OR, in this day and age, you have not spent enough money i.e. you do not have a type rating.
Spending a considerable time unemployed, fending off banks and credit card and watching my family fall apart I was offered a sniff of a job on a turbo-prop...if I payed for the rating. Choice = bankrupt or pay more money. I thought sod it and got an interest free credit card and paid for the rating and if it all goes wrong then I will be bankrupt with a rating.
I started the job, was paid pea-nuts via an agency (an agency I later learned took 80% of the money the airline spent for me).
After that job I was offered a job on the A320, i took it but the airline takes cash from me each month.
Basically, I will spend many many years just paying for the privilage of going to work and making the airlines richer.
I took years out of my life, spent lots of money, lost money due to no salary during training - it will be years before I get back to where I should be.


A know-nothing, no-time, no-experience pilot, and you're put in an airbus, and you complain.

It took me fifteen years of hard flying before getting the chance to climb into a jet...and here you're whining because...why is it you're whining again?

Grow up.

As for other industries that require you to spend large sums of money and still have little to show for it...don't forget to include doctor, lawyer, yada, yada, yada...

[Prophead]

The problem is not the cost of the training. Its actually quite reasonable really. It all depends how you get that licence. Its no good paying well over the odds because you want to go integrated at the school with the shiniest brochure then coming on here and complaining because your £100k in debt.

So many people say they want to be a pilot because they love to fly. (most of these before they even have a PPL) Then they complain because they are not getting a huge salary. Ask yourself what have you actually done to deserve a large wage other than do what you say you love doing. If you have borrowed the money rather than working for it and saving it then you really have not done much at all. Compare yourself to a nurse who goes through the years of training and works long hours to earn a fraction of what a pilot earns. There are loads of jobs out there which all require years of training that is done whilst working around part time jobs. There is not many careers which you can be ready to find employment after only 12-18 months of training. Certainly not that pay anything near what a pilot gets.

I think too many people have the image of themselves walking through the terminal in their uniform and earning a vast amount of cash whilst being the envy of everyone. This after a quick visit to the bank and a year of flying around in the sun having fun. No wonder there are loads of wannabes out there.

Im not saying the route to fATPL is easy, but lets put it in perspective here. There are alot harder and less rewarding jobs out there.

As to making it cheaper this will only mean more people after the same few jobs. If you take out the cost and make airlines pay for it all then the only people getting jobs will be 21 year olds with a first class degree and a father in the industry or the ex RAF pilots. The 35 year old hard working wannabe will be a thing of the past. Be careful what you wish for...

[HercFeend]

OMG!!!! Everyone’s job sucks from time to time or if you’re really unlucky all the time….. I’m sorry that you seem to be on of the later, but, guess what, we live in a world where we can get another job if we don’t like the one we’ve got. So, go and do that and stop depressing the c**p out of the rest of us :=.

And please don’t, for one second, think that aviation is the only ‘self funded’ profession out there…….. its not by a long shot and you’re deluded if you think otherwise :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:.

Thanks to SNS3Guppy, Prophead & Topslide6 for replying in the positive and preventing me from having to go a top myself…….!

[mcgoo]

Why are you all suddenly replying to a post that's over a year old and to a user that hasn't logged onto PPRuNe since just after this post?

[HercFeend]

Nothing better to do at the moment and it got under my skill and I needed to vent......:E

[DeltaT]

'return my investment' I feel your pain mate, I know where you are coming from. If nothing else, I agree, try to get the word out to other new wannabes to get on with something else other than flying, and get treated better and have a better life.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Well of course there are two sides to every story - personally I've thus far had good experiences as have two friends of mine, one 19 years of age, the other 20, who are now in a 737 and 757 RHS respectively.
"Chances of success slim?" What bollocks, someone's gotta fly them :ok:
It's PRECISELY WHAT YOU MAKE IT. You got into flying because of your love for it? Then that's absolutely why you should continue with it. You'll beat yourself up over it if you don't...

Cheers, Jack.

[shaun ryder]

No.. You and various others get into it because you paid for it! i.e your type ratings, getting to fly airliners with circa 200hrs. Outrageous, always has been in my opinion. Getting shafted on rubbish wages and paying for line training etc etc. Be all self righteous offering advice to wannabees on what to do. Truth is, you were probably whining about how the world owed you a job when you had your piddley 200hrs! Thank God, that for the time being recruitment will be open to experienced applicants only, it will hopefully bring some reality and balance back into this ridiculous situation where people borrow obscene amounts of money to chase what really is a pipe dream for the majority. Some of you might have to contemplate the horror of working your way up through the normal channels for the foreseeable future, or put it all down to bad judgement.

[LH2]

So this thread is not about sexual harassment, then? I'm disappointed. :E

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Shaun Ryder,

You have misunderstood me - if you were referring in part to previous posts, then my apologies. However, I am not of the opinion that anybody is owed a job in the RHS any more than a law grad is owed a job with a high flying legal firm. Indeed, one of said friends of mine paid for his type rating with a certain lcc based in Ireland - the other was motivated and committed enough to have secured a place to train with CTC. Personally I'd love to fly the big ones straight away; who with my ambition wouldn't? However, my passion is for AVIATION, and I've never allowed myself to become tunnel visioned to the airlines in any way, shape or form. Which is where I believe there can be a problem - I'm not without my personal stereotypes and it bothers me that some people will happily let 'mum and dad' pay through the eyeballs for the training they may not deserve on the basis that only the airlines are worthy of them. The idea of instructing and passing my knowledge on to others is such an appealing prospect to me right now, as is aerial survey work (of which I've been involved with in the past), glider towing, air taxi, bush flying, light freight and so on so forth. My personal opinion is that far too many people are centered on the big iron far too early and it is this culture partially which has led to, as the previous poster mentioned, market forces erring to the situation we find ourselves in now. Do you place the blame on people like me for the current circumstances? From a commercial perspective then yes, we're partial. But it's also established pilots in certain airlines not having the BALLS to fight for half decent T+Cs that's only exacerbating the problem. And at the moment we find ourselves in a vicious cycle - some business models will want only experienced pilots, experienced pilots who will not last forever, for there will come a time when cadets are needed. And currently one of the only ways to achieve that is to have said cadet pay for his or her own type rating - kills two birds with the same stone as some airlines have recognised.
So indeed, please don't get me wrong, I think the current climate is disgusting in many regards, but I would never let that overturn the passion that drove me into it in the first place. And I believe it's wrong for certain individuals who happened to have had bad experiences to poison the minds of the innocent so to speak - all you are succeeding in doing is balancing the scales; for every pessimist (or should I call you 'realist'? :rolleyes:) out there, is somebody positive. Then again, this is PPRuNe, well known as an antagonist's paradise, and all views, bar some, are best taken with a healthy pinch of salt.

All the best, Jack.

[portsharbourflyer]

There is this misconception that paying for a type rating means poor terms and conditions. It seems that a number of your think been bonded on a low salary for three to four years is more acceptable than paying for a rating.

Ryanair pilots may get a raw deal for about 6-12 months, but after that the pay scheme seems to be quite respectable. Compare two people with 250 hours, one joins Ryanair the other goes down the instructing route, on average most people are going to end up instructing full time for a year to two years before getting employed (I will admit one of the most enjoyable jobs I have done), in which time the Cadet at Ryanair will have obtained 900 to 1800 hours on a 737 at Ryanair. Said instructor may get a turboprop job within 12 to 18 months, probably with a three year bond of about 20,000. Three years later, Ryanair cadet now will have progressed to command, probably has sufficient heavy jet hours to apply to Emirates. Instructor has now finished bond on turboprop and can now apply for a jet job. So for all you Ryanair bashers out there it is/was somewhere that could progress your career quite quickly. When I consider the paycut I took to instruct full time for a year it was well in excess of the price of a rating.

Anyway with a five day on and four day off roster and getting home every evening sounds ok to me ( I don't work for Ryanair), if I had such a roster then I would still be flying for a living. I didn't feel that 500 hours of VFR instructing ever prepared me for a heavy aircraft rating; infact a 250 pilot fresh off the IR course is going to be just as well prepared to cope with a type rating course than a 700/1000 hour instructor who has largely only been doing VFR flying.

[corsair]

Jack my friend, let me suggest you make paragraphs your friend. The wall-o- text thing is hard on the eyes.

Interesting revival of an old dead thread posted by a whinger and a sucker. One born every minute.

I'm all for putting people off a flying career and for potential pilots to band together and refuse to pay for TRs. Go ahead because I'll step in and the take the available jobs. Call me mercenary if you like but in reality, I'll be trampled in the rush of other pilots doing just the same. There is no solidarity among unemployed pilots or wannabe pilots. Everyone else is just a potential rival.

It's quite different to band together and try an keep Ts and Cs once you are in a job. I'm all for that.

In the real world, no one owes you a living. Every week if you watch that annoying X-factor programme, you see Simon Cowell et al, telling some dreamer that they're crap and can't sing. The poor things run off in tears telling the faux sympathetic interviewer that 'This is something they wanted to do all their (pathetic little) life'. Well boo hoo to them and boo hoo to those wannabe pilots want it all handed to them.

The reality is that in my experience, most pilots eventually find work as pilots if they really want it enough. The law of natural selection soon weeds out those who aren't prepared to put in the effort required.

The truth of the matter is that it was never easy to become a pilot. Even in WW2 you had to meet a standard and were weeded out quickly if you didn't. In the 'good old days' of the fifties, sixties and seventies. There were cadetships which were always oversubscribed. The self improver route was horrendously expensive and no bank offered loans. Many don't realise that in Britain, you couldn't even get a CPL until you had 700 hours behind you. So much for the 'good old days'.

So anyone whinging that the airlines aren't besieging their house to hire them with 200 or 300 hours in their books, really isn't fit to live in the real world yet.

[portsharbourflyer]

Corsair, I certainly don't agree that the CAA self improver route was horredoulsy expensive.

The CAA self improver route was a good deal more affordable than the current JAA modular system. No appoved ground school required for CPL and ATPL exams, hence you could just buy the books and book in for the exams.

On the CAA self improver route the IR, if done once 700 hours was achieved could be done as a non-approved course where training was done as required and there was not a requirement to do a minimum of 50/55 hour course.
Also as an CAA QFI, you could be teaching the IMC rating and gaining quite a bit of IFR experience prior to taking the IR. I remember seeing BCPL courses for as little as 1200-1500 pounds (in the mid 1990s', compare that to 5000-6000 now for a JAA CPL (even take into account inflation). With the 23% tax relief available prior to 2002 then flight training was alot more affordable prior to JAA.

Also BCPL to CPL upgrade courses were also available for quite some time allowing people to skip the 700 hour requirement.

[portsharbourflyer]

Corsair,

The old CAA self improver system was alot more affordable than the current JAA modular system, there was no requirement to do approved groundschools for the CPL or ATPL exams, if the IR was done when 700 hours was reached then a non-approved IR course could be taken which consisted of training as required (ie: no requirement for a 50/55 hours course). As a CAA QFI could instruct for IMC ratings then it was possible to gain a reasonable degree of IFR experience prior to taking the IR, hence for these people a non approved IR course could be accomplished quite quickly.

Add to this that prior to 2002, 23% tax relief was available on flight training then I think you will find the CAA self improver route was alot more affordable. Also BCPL-CPL upgrade courses were available for some time which allowed someone to bypass the 700 hour requirement.

BCPL courses were only about 1200-1500 pound in the mid-nineties, compare that to the price of a JAA CPL course of about 5000 pounds then even taking inflation into account these represents a marked increase in the price of training.

It is true self sponsored ratings have become more prevalent since the introduction of JAA and the removal of the 700 hour requirement, however SSTR are not new, I met a retired airline pilot about a year back who had self sponsored a BAe1-11 rating in his day to get employed.

[Desert Budgie]

Yes, this is turning out to be an interesting thread.

Something very important for many of the more experienced pilots to do is highlight the realities of the industry for the wannabes. That is one of the reasons we have pprune is it not? What kind of colleagues would we be if we did not warn the keen new guys and gals of the difficulties of becoming a working pilot, and the problems within the industry once you make it. So please don't attack your more experienced counterparts for giving you some valuble advice, even if it is not positive.

Now I must again highlight the fact that what we do IS A JOB. I love what I do, but it pays the bills. I too have gripes with my company and wish they would pay more, or roster us better. I miss many important events because I get rostered on days that I wish I wasn't. Like I said, I love my job but there are days when I wish I was not at work. Many of us want houses, families and nice cars, so when we complain about certain T and C's it is for a reason. Could we do more to improve T and C's? Probably, but complaining on this website is easier :}

As far as the airlines are concerned I too do not agree with having to pay for your own type rating. But these airlines are businesses, and if people are still willing to pay for their type rating of course they are going to exploit it. However, don't use the pay for rating scheme as the only excuse for not getting employed. Many, many airlines accross the world still pay for ratings with a bond. Their requirements may be slightly higher, but those people who get those jobs have done the hard graft as an instructor, banner tower, medivac, air taxi etc. Too many newbies look at the thousands of shiny jets and think that is where they want to be as soon as they leave flight school, and when they don't get the job they feel hard done by. Please, set your sights lower from the beginning and it will make you appreciate every opportunity you are given.

The airline industry is just like any other white collar industry in the world. If you want to get in you have to pay for it. Lawyers, architects, engineers, doctors etc spend 10's of thousands of pounds to gain their basic qualification. For doctors and architects it takes about 5-7 years to qualify and only then can they begin to pay back their huge debts. Even when these folks are in their 30s and 40s many are still up to their eyes in debt! I find it difficult to believe that new pilots think they are a different breed to folks in other positions. Most of these industries are in tough times at the moment aswel, so don't think you are the only folk fighting for a few positions with crap T and C's.

Finally, please don't put all your eggs in one basket. With the current economic crisis, it is unlikely many new fATPL holders are going to find an OK paying job right off the bat. Before you begin your career, learn a trade of some sort. If you are up to your eyes in debt with no means of paying it off, it may be your own fault. When you watch TV and hear these stories of people in hellish credit card and other personal debt, how do you think they got into that mess? They were doing what many wannabes are doing and spending money they didn't have without a means to realistically pay it off.

It's quite funny, I look back over this post think I sound like one of those pilots who annoyed me with realities while I was training. The point is now is the time to really take in what the guys are telling you, and take every step towards your goal very carefully so you don't end up in the same mess as many of your counterparts. By no means give up the dream, as it is the best JOB in the world, but dream carefully! ;)

Cheers

DB :ok:

[corsair]

Portharbourflyer, well maybe I exaggerated for effect but it was still expensive and bear in mind banks were far less inclined to lend money to aspirant pilots back then. Not everyone got their 700 hours instructing. Pilots would go to the US to hour build.

Now I stand to be corrected but I think the BCPL was only introduced later because there was an anomaly where PPL's were instructing and getting paid and the CAA wanted to regularise that. Plus it allowed other airwork. Am I wrong?

In any case, my point really is that you really needed to be dedicated to flying to get to the magic 700 hours. It took time and commitment. It may not have been the best system but it certainly weeded out the less than committed.

Desert budgie is right. It is a JOB at the end of the day. Much as I like flying. I love a day off, in spite of the fact I don't get paid for days off. On the other hand when I drop my son off to the creche and get stuck in traffic. I certainly don't envy all the office drones on their way to work. I do envy their stability though and their salary!

[RSFTO]

This is what I do :
I never paid for a type rating.
I never paid to work.
When I work as FI I want to be paid well ortherwise I do not work and I work only on fixed salary and definite working hours with a regular contract where extra time is well paid.

When I have to select people for any job I do not take the one who paid for tr and flight experience.

May be if we all apply the above we will end up making monies.

[portsharbourflyer]

Corsair,

Correct the BCPL was a way to put an end to the paid ppl instructor and correct on a BCPL you could indeed get paid for aerial work such as banner towing, aerial photography, flying scenic flights.

I will agree it was a far better system and by going to University I just missed the boat on the old CAA system. As you say in relative terms flying has never been cheap

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I did the the BCPL and instructed past 700hrs and got my CPL that way.

The total cost of a my CPL/IR Multi IR IMC, Night and FI rating was £16k after allowing for the pay from instructing. My PPL and hours building were courtesy of the Queen.

It was a much better system than prevails now but then that's progress and EU harmonisation for you.


Shifting the financial risk from employer to employee has only been possible because of the credit/asset bubble of the past 5 years. With this now burst the risk will have to shift back. Unfortunately pilot demand has fallen off a very high cliff.


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