Advice please (nervous)

[pug]

I have just started training towards my JAR PPL, had my 5th hour today... Its something i have always wanted to do and i am determined to do it. However, i seem to be nervous of the turbulence and and quite apprehensive and am concerned that this could get worse putting paid to the idea of gaining my PPL.

I did my second takeoff today and once near some trees the little C150 quickly banked to the left shocking me putting me on edge for the rest of the flight.

I would be grateful if anyone could advise me if this is common, does it go with time or could it just get worse and as said earlier stop me from the ultimate goal of gaining my licence?


Cheers

[Final 3 Greens]

Pug

It's quite normal to feel this way.

After 5 hours your body is still not used to the environment and the visual picture can also be alarming ;)

Stick at it - most people normally find their confidence grows when they realise that light turbulence doesn't make the aircraft fall out of the sky.

And remember, as my instructor told me, a key qualification to be a PPL is a large yellow streak down the middle of your back :}
There are old pilots and bold pilots, but very few old and bold pilots.
Good luck :ok::ok:

[CraigR1989]

Hi pug!

I got my licence last year from DTV where there never seemed to be a smooth day...

I know exactly what you mean, being in charge of the aircraft and being bumped around a little bit.

In my case I just got on with it, and the feeling disappeared with time. I just remembered that the aircraft isnt affected by turbulence and I was in control, if something happened I corrected it.

On the other hand, if you are in turbulence its better to be a little bit on edge, as it stops the drifting off course and altitude changes.

Hope you feel a bit better on your next flight and get ur licence :}

Craig

[pug]

Thanks for the advice, i do appologise for starting a new thread about this as i have just discovered the 'Okay to be nervous' thread.

I shall bare all this in mind for my next lesson and hopefuly this time next year may have done the skills test :}

[CraigR1989]

No probs.... If you need any help with the PPL stuff give me a shout... Its all still pretty fresh in my mind.... I only did the skills test last October :)

[Adam_]

I'm a low hours PPL student like yourself and I was thinking of posting the exact same thread when I got back from today's lesson.

We were flying at 2,000ft today due to cloud cover and there was a lot of turbulence. I spent the entire 75 minute flight being bumped about and not only that but we did the "slow flight" exercise followed by some co-ordinated turns. Sudden gusts really put me off balance and I do find my nerves getting the better of me. My hands were slipping on the controls towards the end from the sweat and being rocked about for so long made me feel queezy for the first time since I started my training. That all had a knock-on effect on my flying especially once we entered the circuit.

My instructor assures me that everyone gets affected by nerves and that they quickly fade as your confidence grows. Despite having many hundreds of hours he seems nervous himself at times, especially when there's traffic about... or when I'm in control :D.

Some nervousness can only be a good thing as it keeps you on your toes. When you get complacent you might let a 'situation' develop without realising.

[digital.poet]

I too am a relatively low hours PPL student. Just starting to bash the circuit working towards that ever closer first solo.

I am finding that my nerves are getting better with each flight. Last weekend I turned up at the airfield for a lesson and winds were gusting at 20-25 knots, right across the runway.

My instructor told me that it was not the kind of weather for me to be learning take-offs and landings just yet, but that if I was feeling brave we could do some work on keeping a rectangular circuit in relatively strong wind. It was definately very interesting. It is a little strange to be pointing in one direction but actually moving in a slightly different one.

The wind and the turbulance definately had me on edge, and I have experienced a few of those 'sudden banks' that you mention. Quite scary at 50 feet!

The biggest problem I have when I get nervous is that I hold on too tightly to the yoke and consequently apply back pressure, this means I screw up the trimming. I am getting better though. Whenever my instructor points it out, I always comment that it is a weird thing to do logically. If the aircraft falls, the yoke will be coming too right? :). Human nature is a funny thing!

[Fuji Abound]

In the early days a great deal of nervousness ultimately comes from a doubt that the aircraft or your instructor can cope with the conditions.

After all you believe they should keep you safe - don’t you, but you find yourself wondering if they can cope with that sudden guest. It’s a long time ago, but I remember I felt like that anyway.

Well - you would be amazed at what light aircraft can cope with. You will not even come close to the conditions which are on the edge of the aircraft's envelope. Light aircraft wobble around. They don’t have the inertia and weight of larger aircraft, so that is entirely normal. In really turbulent conditions they will bounce around continuously a bit like a roller coaster ride.

.. .. .. and as far as your instructor is concerned, it is not always apparent how high their skill levels are.

Weather conditions would have to be really severe for either to start to struggle, and you will certainly not be flying in those conditions.

You may also worry about the engine stopping - do you?

Well as you probably know it is very unlikely - and if it does, it is very likely your instructor will do a very good job of landing the aircraft. You may not yet have realised but the average light aircraft can be stopped in a few hundred feet if you really have to, so it is amazing what little space is needed.

They were the worries I had.

[WALSue]

I'm also a low hours student. A few nerves are quite natural (at least I hope so!) there is a hell of a lot to take in.
I think at times though what you assume to be nerves is just excitment at being let loose at the controls again.
Although after being bounced around so much on Saturday my biggest fear was throwing up :eek:

You may not yet have realised but the average light aircraft can be stopped in a few hundred feet if you really have to, so it is amazing what little space is needed.

I realised this during my last lesson when a dirty big A319 was bearing down on us. A C150 needs very little room!

[Adam_]

I can't describe how reassuring it is reading these forums and realising people feel exactly the same way as I do.

One day I'm sure we'll all be "real pilots" and look back on our PPL training wondering how we ever found it so difficult.

Fortunately I'm still young enough to remember learning to drive. I remember thinking that a parallel park was impossible... how could anyone ever manage to do that? 5 hours later and I could do it in my sleep.

Circuits? Pffffft.... childs' play :D.

[Fuji Abound]

Turbulence is when you hit your head on the canopy - if you are not strapped in really well.

Bad turbulence is when you do it several times in the space of half an hour.

:)

Another guide is when you are bouncing around so much that you cant adjust the pressure (or whatever) without steadying your hand or chosing the right moment.

Fortunately that doesnt happen too often. :) :)

[PompeyPaul]

Sometimes when learning to fly, and indeed flying, you will feel scared and uncomfortable.

Unfortunately it just goes with the territory.

Although the fear of turbelence will go over time there will be other things that make you feel uneasy. It's just part of "hobby"

don't forget, if you are diving then you shouldn't fly for 12hours if you dived less than 30ft, and you shouldn't fly for 24 hours if you were deeper than 30ft.

[Blues&twos]

All pretty classic examples of low-hour training to-do-anything-new. I had this learning to drive, learning to drive lorries, learning to sail and I've taken a couple of flying lessons too - same thing. For me it disappeared pretty quickly and was replaced by the joy of getting better as the hours went by! In fact, provided it's not too mad, I prefer the slightly windier days.

If it makes you feel any better I have a long held (irrational?) fear of automatic car washes.....

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

Pug

I have several hundred hours and still feel a bit nervous on occasion.
One thing did make a lot of difference for me though - I started flying on low wings like Pipers rather than high wings like Cessnas. Not sure if in reality there was any difference to the way these aircraft react to turbulence (something to do with wing loading......), but to my mind it did ! So have a go in a Cheetah, and see what you think.

And that feeling? Like when you're at 2000ft and you want to say to the instructor - "I've had enough. Can we land please?"
Been there....done that. It will get better over time, but I promise you, when you have one of those evening flights in the summer when the air is cooling and slowing settling, and when the flight is as smooth as being on glass......you'll forget all about turbulence !

[englishal]

My very first first flight, in a 152, taking off over LA, I thought "No f**king way am I going to do this ever again".

That was 7 years ago, and now I have a CPL, IR, and a share in an aeroplane and can't get enough ;)

[high-hopes]

My very first first flight, in a 152, taking off over LA, I thought "No f**king way am I going to do this ever again".

My very first flight, in a 152, taking off over Cumbernauld, I thought "this thing looks dodgy but the pilots must know they are safe enough"

Still got it in my logbook, G-BHDR
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5784003

;)

[Fuji Abound]

"this thing looks dodgy but the pilots must know they are safe enough"

The fact that the average club aircraft looks like it has seen better days doesnt help - soggy carpets, worn out seats, bits of trim missing etc.

The trouble is most of the sort of people who learn to fly are also use to cars that dont leak and havent started to fall to bits yet .. .. ..

Inspires cofindence in your trusty stead - I think not, but if the maintenance is good, they should be OK. :)

[Captain Smithy]

I put up with some pretty beastial turbulence today; was very bumpy indeed! Unusual at first but you soon get used to it.

Good luck with your PPL

Smithy

[Crash one]

I remember being scared witless last summer when we climbed to 4000ft for stall training over water in turbulance, I thought "no way am I ever going to do this by myself", two weeks ago I did just that.

[Pieman007]

You might want to change to something a bit more stable/heavier. A warrior or C172 even. Those little 150's are like kites, they are light and generate lots of lift so you will feel just about everything. Try something heavier, you will feel the difference for sure.

[Wessex Boy]

What I do when I get to the airfield for a lesson is watch some other aircraft take off, I can get a view of how the turbulence off the trees is affecting the runway traffic then, in what direction and at what height.

You can then impress your instructor with your sharp-witted reactions to a 'surprise' gust.....

If there is some turbulence I will hold the nose down after lift off and then climb at 90 kts (in a PA28) to get me through the 'zone' quicker and with greater penetration.

I have had real issues dealing with the gusts/Turbulence we get on Final from 50' down to the deck, but on my last lesson I was dealing with it as my instructor was saying it, and did the landing entirely on my own, with no intervention, my first in sporting conditions. It just takes time and the rest of it clicks into place, giving you enough capacity to deal with the added 'sport'

My last tip, if the weather is marginal for circuits and the instructor gives you the choice to go or not? GO, it is much better to experience tricky conditions for the first time with an instructor in the RHS to help/intervene than it is to just go in perfect conditions, only meeting 'sporting' weather when you are solo and at a strange airfield....

[flexy]

Its good sport in a flexwing and you tend to be thrown about a lot more by thermals than Cessnas which is why there are lots of people that only fly in hot air balloon weather. You will develop trust in the aeroplane but give it time. I flew down to the Norfolk coast yesterday with no passenger which is the first time i have flown one up for a while and with the lighter wing loading it makes a hell of a difference - made me take notice!!!. Was getting + and - 600ft at one point. The key is to try and relax and not fight them. If you hold on to the yoke/bar/stick like your life depends on it you make the whole thing rigid and the bumps seem worse - just try and correct the worst ones and enjoy the other little bumps...

[Slopey]

Can't agree more with Flexy - I was flying yesterday in a C172 and was bounced about all over the place thanks to a spritely wind around 3000ft and a hot day.

Best thing to do is relax your hand on the yoke - these spamcans are inherently stable - let it wobble around a little and just correct the big ones. Whatever you do, don't grip the yoke tightly - you'll make it much much more bumpier that way - with a light touch it's much smoother.

And don't forget to trim properly.

[Shunter]

Took me a while to get used to the bumps when I was learning I have to say, but get used to them I did.

Then back in March when flying our 177 back from a 50hr in Derby, I was flying happily over Emley Moor when the plane gets chucked up and down like a toy being held by a screaming child. First thing I knew I'd smacked my head on the ceiling, next thing I'd been stuffed down into my seat again and bitten my sodding tongue. This continued for about 30 seconds (fortunately without further tongue biting) with instruments going haywire and being unable to focus accurately on the world outside. As it was all nicely trimmed I just relaxed my grip and sure enough it passed and I was returned to normal flight (500ft higher!).

I called ATC just to say "FYI, severe turbulence for light aircraft over Emley Moor", to which the response was, "Funny that, we had an Embraer inbound 20 minutes ago in the same area who said he was unable to descend!"

At the time I was obviously rather perturbed, but looking back I find it a great benchmark to refer to. I've not experienced anything remotely like it before or since, so it makes the little everyday bumps feel like a walk in the park.

[katzulu]

My advice would be "don't show it!" particularly if your a girlie, I was also a little nervous about turbulence when I started, so my instructor decided to make this a feature of my training, net result 4hours of stall practice, 1 hours flying in thick cloud, 55 hours of circuit and 35 minutes of solo. My soon to be ex-instructor favourite catchphase "the conditions are not good enough for you to do solo" he has been saying that for the last 25 hours, so we have opted for dual training. I appreciate that he has taught me crosswind landings which are useful, our best flights in my opinion are the ones where I completely ignore him and get on with it, as he tries to make me feel slightly nervous otherwise, he is quite a demotivating character, and although my hours are building-up, I seem no closer to getting my licence. Don't mean to moan, but sometimes one's vulnerability becomes open to exploitation

[Mad Girl]

Katzulu
My advice would be "don't show it!" particularly if your a girlie, I was also a little nervous about turbulence when I started, so my instructor decided to make this a feature of my training, net result 4hours of stall practice, 1 hours flying in thick cloud, 55 hours of circuit and 35 minutes of solo. My soon to be ex-instructor favourite catchphase "the conditions are not good enough for you to do solo" he has been saying that for the last 25 hours, so we have opted for dual training. I appreciate that he has taught me crosswind landings which are useful,

You may have a point with your instructor but it's generally not a bad thing to be pushed against something you're not comfortable with.

If I show any dislike of something in the sylabus, mine will make me do lots of training around that area until I'm more comfortable with it. It's safer to explore your fears with a safety net, rather than avoid the issue and explore them on your own, and find you can't deal with it.....Or that's what I'm been telling myself recently.... :rolleyes:

G-EMMA
This year has been bad though for people doing solo, I know I've rarely had a lesson where the conditions would have been OK

If it's any consolation - last year wasn't much cop either. I only managed 13 1/2 hours in 6 months through last summer solely trying to learn to land in horrible crosswinds. Lots of those "I don't like this" moments.

But you know what.... On a good day I can deal with quite strong crosswinds now, with the odd gust thrown in for good measure, and (strangely) enjoy it. :O

Keep at it girls.

[llanfairpg]

:bored:

You may have a point with your instructor but it's generally not a bad thing to be pushed against something you're not comfortable with.

Mad Girl :I would be very careful about being pushed against things your not comfortable with you may find that watery eyes make it difficult to fly!

I do not usually reply to posts on these forums as i have to say some of the advice given is at times extremely silly and inane(and downright dangerous sometimes). However just could not resist Mad Girls comment. However now i am here I will try and say something intelligent.

I am approaching retirement with 20,000 hours on various machines, one of them being dirty big A319s, as someone above referred to them. I actually always thought of the 319 as being quite small and the 321 the big one, however I digress.

When I was an instructor I could always tell if a student was of the 'nervous in the air type' by one simple thing, when you banked they leaned away from the direction of bank. This was always more noticeable on high wing aircraft so changing to a low wing may help if the problem continues.

I would like to correct (in my opinion) one or two things that have been previously stated.

The fear of flying is not just one fear it is a mixture of several fears. The first fear is of being an alien environment, which is strange, uncomfortable and unnatural. (Watch a bird on the ground). The second fear is one of height and the insecurity it may bring. You can experience this by going up a ladder or a mountain. The third fear is caused by a combination of the two previous ones, TURBULENCE. If you think about it the turbulence you experience in an aircraft sometimes may be no different from driving along a rough track on the ground too fast or even along some of our public roads but they do no cause the concern they would when you have a few thousand feet of fresh air beneath your backside!

Several people on this forum have stated that this fear goes away with experience well I hate to disagree but I can tell you that in a lot of cases it does not. I know several captains with many hours experience who immediately dive onto the controls if you ever hit turbulence even when it’s not their leg! Both of the characters I am thinking of are very good pilots but they are scared of turbulence and always will be. What are of more of a concern are the many pilots who are just not totally relaxed in an airborne environment and that would be at least 50% of all of the pilots I have ever flown with. Give them a problem on the ground and they are OK but put them at 20,000 feet and they become different people. That doesn’t make them bad pilots on a day-to-day basis but it makes a harmonised two-crew operation difficult and in an emergency situation these pilots will always be the weak link.

So you can see from the above, fear in various degree is natural, it natures control.

Overcoming any fear means challenging it but the first part of that is understanding it (not many previous posters have given much direction here).

Understand why there is turbulence, when it is most likely to occur and how bad it is likely to be. Most pilots over state turbulence. Somebody previously described SEVERE turbulence--the defintion of severe turbulence is turbulence likley to damage the airframe and I doubt if anyone on this forum has or ever will experience turbulence like that.

I can tell you until you have been over the Alps at night in a thunderstorm you do not know what real frightening turbulence is like!

Pug my advice to you is to find out first of all what is frightening you, the height, the turbulence, the bank angle, whatever—Try an understand why it is frightening you and then try and gain more experience in that area, increase your understanding of yourself(are you OK up a ladder, up Blackpool Tower, would you do a parachute jump, would you do aerobatics,Top board at a swimming pool, did you have any scary experiences when you were younger involving heights etc are you a naturally nervous person etc etc)

Stick with it—we need the pilots!

Captain Jon

[Spruit]

Good post Captain Jon :ok: right on the money IMHO

[Shunter]

Granted, the aformentioned 'severe turbulence' didn't damage the airframe, but it certainly damaged me. Hopefully my pulling the power to lose 30kts was a good move in relation for the former. I was spitting blood with a banging headache for an hour after I landed. Like I said, it's a useful benchmark. Puts the little bumps well into perspective.

[llanfairpg]

The correct procedure in turbulence which is moderate to severe is to maintain the manufacturers turbulence penetration speed which is a trade off between an adequate margin above the stall and airframe G loading. Merely 'pulling off 30 knots' could have dire consequences in some situations, for instance on the approach to land and its the approach to land where the most light aircraft pilots will experience moderate turbulence. In the history of aviation very few serious accidents have been caused by turbulence(in fact none that I know of) but many many fatal accidents have occured by failing to make airspeed/thrust corrections correctly during the approach in gusty turbulent conditions(and of course failing to initiate early go around).
Aircraft airframes are much stronger than you may think, the average Cessna having twice the G limit of an airliner. I remember a BA aircraft going through a CB cloud in East Anglia and coming out with a bent wing tip and a ATP suffering a rather large height loss over the Midlands(seem to remember that captain suddenly pulled off a wedge of power and lost control of the aircraft, think it lost about 5000 ft before they recovered.

The other consideration is that the most common area to find moderate to severe turbulence is in CB cloud and that often comes with moderate to severe icing. Reducing too much power/speed in these conditions can really spoil your day.(as was the case with the ATP above, the captain by the way was demoted to FO afterwards)

A good way to tell if you have just flown through severe turbulence is when you put the aircraft away and find you do not need to open the hangar doors as far apart as when you pulled the aircraft out!

Sorry anyway i am rambling, as daft old prats in aviation always do, just remember PUG turbulence wont hurt you, the most likely only time you will be hurt learning to fly is either on the car journey to and from the airfield or when you pay your flying bill!

Captain Jon

[Shunter]

It's all useful info IMHO. Since the turbulence was not expected I was way above maneuvering speed at 3500ft at the time, hence the power reduction. Since my home airfield is prone to windshear at times I generally fly approaches flapless, 15-20kt faster, during turbulent conditions.

[xrayalpha]

Hi,

To go back to instruction, and early flights.

I have had a couple of students who have felt airsick around 40 minutes into the lesson, both now qualified.

What worked with them were 30 minute lessons. So they started each lesson feeling good and ended feeling good.

Remember Pavlov and his dogs? He trained them to salivate every time he rang a bell. We don't want to train pilots to be airsick every time they fly!

So, if we find something that causes them to be airsick, stop it, assess the situation and then see how it can be modified. In these two situations, it was eating a sandwich before flying that helped keep the bool sugar under control - adrenaline is a powerful drug! And for the first 20 hours, just doing half hour lessons so the positive feelings were re-inforced.

Another one is with kids under 12. Just take them up for a simple circuit. Then they have the thrill of the take-off, the thrill of the view and the thrill of the landing. All positive. Pals at school ask "were you scared", they reply: It was fab.

Take them for half an hour, then after 10 minutes they fidget, then they think: my pals would be dead scared being away up here, then they think: gosh, I am away up here, then they are: scared.

If they had done just a quick cicuit first, then on a later flight, if they think: my pals would be scared/said they would have been scared then they think: I am braver. I wasn't scared the last time and I'm not scared now!

And because they think that, they're not!

And it is like that with turbs. Think: car on bumpy track, not a problem. Think: maybe not too comfortable, but safe. Think: fantastic learning expereince, one day I'll have enough practise/experience to do this too. Wonderful!

Come for a flight with me in a weightshift microlight for turbs!!

Very best,

Colin

ps. I prefer those silky smooth days anyway, very few people don't! But it doesn't mean we can't handle the turbs!