PA28 180 Take off

[JerryB12]

Hey all, New to the site, I just bought a PA28 180. The POH says Vr 55-60 and "let the plane fly itself off". Well it don't work that way with me. The first time I tried it, stall light on, plane wallows like a pig with 4 foot wings and it mushed down. Now I get up to 70 knots get it off the ground and release some back pressure, Works ok, but I wonder way I need so much speed over the POH recommendation. Perhaps the 5200 ft altitude? Anybody got experience with this...Thanks a lot...jerry

[fireflybob]

The airport elevation does not effect the Vr as an Indicated Airspeed although the True Airspeed will be higher, hence longer take off roll etc.

I am not too struck on the idea of "Vr" in a light aircraft - it's more a question of accelerating to the correct speed and then selecting the take off attitude and then waiting for the machine to fly itself off the ground. Don't expect to immediately get airborne when you select the take off attitude!

Also where have you set the trim for take off - might be worth experimenting a little with this.

However, my best suggestion is to find a good instructor who is experienced on the type and take some training from him/her.

Hope this helps

[redout]

Vr 65 usually does the trick taking into account the pilot, one front pax no back pax and no luggage.

[Speedbird48]

Jerry,

I note your address as AZ (Arizona) does temperature, and density altitude come to mind??

Go find a competant instructor and go over the numbers.

I also agree that light aircraft Vr numbers are not really any use. The airplane, or rather the wing, has an angle of attack that will give you the performance you require. Therefore find the correct attitude and it will fly itself off.

I had one for several years, a great airplane.

Brian

[JerryB12]

:DThanks a lot guys, this is a great site, I love this plane and I really enjoy geting up early before work and practicing in the pattern and slow flight etc. The 70 ish speed has been working so I think I will stay with that, seems comfortable and more respondsive after the wheels lift off the ground. Flys sweet. One more question , if I may trouble you guys again. I approach at 80 kts. Many on this site are saying closer to 70-75. I am used to a cessna at 60-65, full flaps. I would like for it not to float so much. Any suggestions.?? thanks again....what a great site!!:D

[carbonfibre]

Hi JerryB12
Try approach at 75kts until last mile / 300 ft alt, then lower last stage of flap should bring you back to 70 without power change then at VAT reduce speed to 65 kts providing you lift the nose / flare, should be a sweet landing.
Carbon:p

[Speedbird48]

Jerry,

Please don't think me harsh, but you are showing a general lack of experience, and my earlier suggestion to go and fly with a "qualified" (as in experienced PA28-180) instructor means more with each post. The airplane is a nice easy machine to fly, but you will aways fly better after good instruction.

The airplane should approach at 1.2 or 1.3 times the stall speed with suitable adjustments for wind gusts etc. 80Kt. is rather high and I would expect you float quite a bit? That manual was written by good experienced people with good reason.

Have you stalled the machine yet?? Make sure your instructor shows you. It is very docile.

Please remember that a good approach will give a good landing. Correct approach speed equals a good landing speed!

Where you appear to be from needs a healthy respect, and understanding of density altitude. Please get some advice.

Brian.

[aviator84]

Yup i always approach at 75 Kts no faster with two stages of flap threw in, + on the takeoff rotate at around 65kts beforehand adding sum slight backpressure to ease load on the nosewheel she usually lifts off nice.

[MikeSamuel]

I rotate and climb at 80mph, approach at 80mph. However I do have lots of runway to play with. Flies almost exactly the same as our Cherokee 140 does, as you'd expect. Nice machine, but a bit old.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jeryy

Listen to Speedbird 48 and take his advice.

Enjoy a lovely aeroplane

F3G

[slim_slag]

Perhaps the 5200 ft altitude?Guess it's pretty hot there too.

Your pitch attitude at Vy when climbing out is going to be a lot shallower than what you might be used to at Vy in the lower lands.

One of the gotchas of flying in the mountains, there aren't many, but you just found one. Reach Vr, pull back, pitch for the attitude you are used to at 100ft MSL, stall, crash.

Get somebody who knows about mountain flying to teach you what to do. You might just kill yourself if you don't. Remember that at the shallower angle of climb you need to clear that mountain off the departure end, so feet per mile is what you should be thinking. Not feet per minute.

When landing fly the normal IAS numbers, but expect to spend more time on the runway before you can pull off. That's because your TAS is higher, you should know that, so go learn it. The gotcha is that you spend so much time on the runway that you run off the end. Don't cross the fence at 80kts, cross it at what the book says, should be around 65 in an archer.

Two mountain flying gotchas in one post. Not bad at all....

[Mungo Man]

Slim - you care to explain why you think pitch attitde is refuced for a given IAS at increasing altitudes??

[Old Smokey]

Did you consider that at 5200 feet the engine is receiving approximately 25 inches of manifold pressurem versus approximately 30 inches at Sea Level ? - That's a LARGE reduction in power, and accounts for the lower pitch attitude necessary at the higher altitude.

Going back to the original post (the reports of the aircraft "mushing: back onto the ground), if your rotation rate and attitude is the same as at sea level, with the MUCH reduced power, I'm not surprised at all. Gentler rotation to a lower pitch attitude is the name of the game:ok:

Regards,

Old Smokey

[BeechNut]

I had a Cherokee 140 and used to fly a rental 140 regularly. The rental would do as the book says, and would fly off more or less on its own with gentle back pressure at book speed. On the other hand, mine fairly had to be yanked off with a strong pull of the yoke, and it would stagger into the air and need some time in ground effect to regain its composure (my current ride, my Beech Sundowner, fairly leaps into the air when you rotate at 65 knots, no matter what the load).

One thing to check on Cherokees as a contributing factor: the pressure in the main and nose gear oleos. Some tend to sit low on their main gear with a nose-high attitude, some have a nice perky stance if the oleos are properly inflated. Sitting nose-high will give a higher angle of attack, and this will signficantly affect behaviour at rotation, more than likely even more serious at high density altitude.

[Saab Dastard]

Just to make sure that everyone is talking the same numbers - is the ASI calibrated in MPH or Knots?

SD

[Intruder]

Did you consider that at 5200 feet the engine is receiving approximately 25 inches of manifold pressurem versus approximately 30 inches at Sea Level ? - That's a LARGE reduction in power, and accounts for the lower pitch attitude necessary at the higher altitude.
Also, are you leaning the mixture for takeoff? If you are at full rich, you are likely getting even less power because of the over-rich mixture. You will also foul the plugs sooner.

[TurboJ]

I would seriously go and do some circuits with an instructor.

However, I teach to 'rotate' if you like at 65knots. By this I mean apply positive back pressure to lift the aircraft off the runway in order to set a climbing attitude. This 'attitude' is where the nose of the aircraft partially obscures the horizon. When established in the climb with this 'climbing attitude' trim the aircraft. Without even looking at the ASI this will give you a best rate of climb speed of 75knots.

Approach

Try approach at 75kts until last mile / 300 ft alt, then lower last stage of flap

I would be careful configuring the aircraft 300ft above the ground.

Concentration should be on flying the correct flight path and at the correct speed, not configuring the aircraft so close to the ground. What if you get assymetric flap deployment? Can you handle that 300ft above the ground? What if you inadvertently balloon? You then have an upset to your flight path coming into land. Great if you have a 13000ft runway but maybe not on a 500m grass strip.

Also, are you leaning the mixture for takeoff?

Does the checklist tell you, you can lean the mixture for take off? Does the POH tell you to lean the mixture for take off? By how much and for how long? Doesn't fuel have a cooling effect?

When hot and high in a normally aspirated engine, your performance is gonna be pretty reduced. You therefore have to watch your airspeed and give your engine plenty of TLC !!

If you have doubts its got to be worth having an hour with an instructor ??

[Intruder]

Does the checklist tell you, you can lean the mixture for take off? Does the POH tell you to lean the mixture for take off? By how much and for how long? Doesn't fuel have a cooling effect?
I'm not familiar specifically with the PA28 180, but I have seen POH entries in similar light singles and twins that recommended or dictated leaning to max RPM (fixed prop) or to an EGT parameter (CS prop) on takeoff at high altitude (>5000' or so). The engine only makes around 75% of rated power at 5000-5500', so the cooling effect of the fuel is less critical than a proper (or closer to proper) mixture.

Back in the 70s when I was flying 172s, 177RGs, and 310s in Puerto Rico on 115/145 AvGas, we leaned for takeoff even at sea level (normally hot & humid -- high density altitude). Without leaning, plug fouling was atrocious! Only the 177RG had any problems with high CHT on climb...

[BeechNut]

I should reinforce the comments about correct approach speed. My home field is 5000 ft long, 400' ASL. The rented plane's instructor insisted that I approach at 85 mph...yes, 85 mph. That was WAY too fast and the float was atrocious. The book said, if memory serves, 85 with NO FLAPS, then 82 first notch, 79 second notch, and 76 full flaps. Well when I flew solo I soon tossed aside my instructor's instructions and flew it by the book (as I did my own Cherokee when I had it), maybe adding a couple of mph for gusty conditions. Landings and landing distances improved remarkably.

In my current bird, approach is 80 knots (92 mph) flapless and first notch, then 75 knots second notch, and 68 knots full flaps. The Sundowner is notorious for being a "fly by the numbers" type on approach. Those who don't have gotten gotten into some pretty nasty porpoising and wheelbarrowing situations. Even 75 with two notches is too fast I find; I slow it back to 70 just over the fence; full flaps, I use 70 knots max.

Today was an interesting situation, nice day, about 22C when I was flying, light and variable crosswind. The Sundowner likes to land with the stall warning honker blaring away; you flare, hold it off, and when the honker starts honking, pull full back on the stick and plonk it on; do this and a smooth touchdown is almost guaranteed. I came over the fence in a variable crosswind. The first clue was some windshear on final that caused me to suddenly pick up 10 knots of airspeed, which I bled off before crossing the boundary. Then on landing, the stall warning honker started blaring, and I made what I thought was a nice, normal and fairly smooth landing, but the wind shifted again, and the plane literally bounded back up into the air; I was low, slow and in ground effect. Instinct would have been to shove the nose down and try to force it back on. I have a friend who did that with a Sierra (retractable gear version of my plane) and promptly took off the nosewheel and bent the prop. I kept it in ground effect, applied full power, got the speed back up, and did a go-around, which I believe was the right thing to do.

I made sure I landed right on the book speed the second time around. I was a knot or two fast on the first attempt, and I did a two-notch landing as the taxiway was at the departure end of the runway, so no need to come in short. I used full flap the second time, speed smack on 68 knots.

While the Sundowner flies differently than the Cherokee, my point is that the book was written after hours and hours of flight testing. When all else fails, read the instructions! Some planes will forgive fudging approach speed on the high side (assuming you're not on a performance limiting field), but others, like mine, thrive on precision. At the end of the day, even if your plane will accept fudging like the good ol' forgiving Cherokee, it will reward you if you fly it with precision.

Beech

[Final 3 Greens]

did a go-around, which I believe was the right thing to do.

Aircraft undamaged, safe landing made.

Good decision :ok:

[TurboJ]

Thanks intruder. Haven't seen that one in our POH. I'll have a look at it.

[Cusco]

Jerry B12:

Can't help but notice you're posting from Arizona:

Can you confirm which units you are talking about, Kts or MPH.? How is the mainscale of your ASI calibrated?

Our PA28, an aged American import has the ASI primarily calibrated in MPH with a smaller scale marked in Kts.

Interestingly however, the POH figures are all nice tidy multiples of 5 and 10 mph e.g. Vr 80mph, Max angle climb 80 mph. best glide 105mph, glide approach 95 mph, clean stall 70mph, that I use these figures rather than mess about with ugly conversions into Kts>

Naturally I use Kts in route planning but as it happens cruise is a nice tidy 135kts.

Not a problem, we in aviation are all used to interchangeable SI, Imperial and downright archaic (I mean, inches for Altimeter settings;) ?) in the practise of our hobby/occupation, but it can bite yer b*m if you mix the units at an in appropriate moment.

Safe flying

Cusco;)

[gcolyer]

For me to get it of the ground at 55 kts with 4 pob + bags I have to pull in 2 stages of flap when I reach 55kts. The aircraft hops off the ground quiet nicely then. You just need to then keep the nose down until she builds up to about 65 - 70kts before you start climbing. I do a lot of short strips and i find that the best way to get it off the ground early on.

And you wont read that in the POH

[dirkdj]

if you are in Arizona at this time of the year, temperature and density atlitude are something to consider as others have said. It will mainly affect the power you will be getting out of your engine.

If you don't lean the mixture before takeoff according to density altitude you will be way too rich and losing lots of power (of the little you have left at that density altitude).

Please get in touch with a qualified instructor familiar with hot and high procedures on piston engines. Density altitude can bite hard.

[Pilot DAR]

Jerry,

You've got a good plane which will treat you well if flown well. Take the advice of Speedbird and others about training with an instructor. With many thousands of hours on over 75 types of aircraft, I still ask for a checkout when flying a new type.

Cherokees are among the minority of light aircraft with an all flying stabilator. For the role for which this aircraft was intended, the stabilator works well. However, in takeoffs where early rotation is desired, they are less good than stabilizer/elevator combinations. The reasons for this are a little involved to explain, but suffice it to say that the whole stabilator can be stalled up side down during takeoff, and create a much longer and unsafe takeoff. Early Cessna Cardinals also suffered from this, and were AD'd for an areodynamic change to improve it. It sounds like you might have already experienced this unknowingly.

Avoid early rotation until a very qualified Cherokee pilot has given you thorough training. In my early days, I was right seat to an "experienced" Cherokee pilot in an Arrow (retractable 180 HP Cherokee) He pulled the poor plane off the ground much too early, and we were stuck in ground affect with a fully stalled stabilator, completely unable to climb and no longer over the runway (thank goodness for low fences and flat gorund). It was only my selecting the gear up that got us climbing. The event was very memorable! I later experimented with this characteristic by myself in the Arrow on the miles long surface of a frozen lake, where density altitude was very favourable. The affect was easy to reproduce, and difficult to fix without re-landing.

Bottom line, competent instruction. Your nerves will thank your ego!

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[gcolyer]

clearfinalsno1


Yes I do think it "can be risky". Once you pull those flaps in you must keep an eye on that airspeed. If need be you don't climb until you have enough speed. I have done 400m strips 4 up with bags in a PA28 180. Although I would not recomend it unless you really know the aircraft. You really have to fly by the seat of your pants.

As for my experience. it does make a difference accelrating with no flaps, thats why i do it. Also pulling in 2 stages of flaps it literaly makes the aircraft hop of the floor, at this point you have to ease back on the yoke a little bit as it will hop of the floor and nose over if you are not carefull. Once you break the nose over motion you need to eas forward a bit on the yoke to prevent stalling. After about 50-75 meters you will have built up enough speed to begin a normal climb out and start loosing the flaps.

I have never pulled 3 stages of flap in, the angle of the flap lever seems natural to stop pulling once you reach two stages.

Read up on bush flying techniques and operations. F E Potts has a very good book.

Now my tin hat is on!

[TurboJ]

GColyer
I don't think I will be teaching my students your techniques.

The POH or Flight Manual should be regarded as the plane bible and IMHO should not be operated outside, unless you are looking for trouble.

Winging it and hoping for the best are simply dangerous and unprofessional.

TJ:confused:

[gcolyer]

TurboJ

I totaly agree with you. You should not be teaching PPL students this. Go and spend sometime with bush pilots, and I mean real bush pilots that have worked the south american jungles/mountains or Alaska. You will soon learn you and what the aircraft can and can't do.

Not once did I say I wing it, and I have not met a bush pilot that wings it either. I do not proclaim to be a bush pilot but I do know 2 very good bush pilots that have taught me a few things.

As for getting a PA28 in and out of tight places, like I said you really need to know the aircraft, A PA28 180 I know well enough to get into and out of some very tight strips on maximum weight. And I was taught this by the 2 bush pilots that I know.

[Dannyboyblue]

Got a quite a few hours in 180's, i always go comfort so i begin to bring the nose back at 60 and im off the ground at 65. Sorry if its been answerd to death but thought i would put my 2 cents in:)

[dublinpilot]

Is there performance tables/POH available online for the PA28-180?

[gcolyer]

I start to ease back on the yoke fractionaly after pulling the 2 stages of flap in, and I only pull it enough to break the nose down motion. During the take of run down the runway I hold the yoke as neutral as possible.

Holding the yoke back on a rough bumpy strip is not a great idea, once the speed starts building she will start bouncing about like a looney. For the average grass strip you wont notice it to much.

[julian_storey]

There are lots of posts on here from lots of very well meaning folk.

The best advice, is to seek advice from an instructor.

If the poster lives in Arizona - he is lucky enough to live near one of the nicest, friendliest, flight schools in that part of America.

Go to www.shebleaviation.com based in Kingman AZ, get their number - ring up and speak to Eddie Lane!

Julian