What's Happening with 801 Squadron?

[althenick]

Hi To all
Asking this question 'cos things have gone rather quiet of late. :bored: Is work progressing to get this Squadron up and running in it's own right or is there still a Naval Strike Wing? Been on the RN Webby and there really isn't anything there. Is there anybody out there in the know willing to spill the beans?
Ta
ATN :ok:

[AlJH]

Had a brief with Wings of 703 about a month ago. Because everything is now under the Crab system, squadrons need a certain number of QFIs before they can become operational. 801 do not have that certain number of QFIs, and so is not an operational squadron until it has them. So for now, 800 and 801 are pooled under Naval Strike Wing (NSW).

[vecvechookattack]

So, what happes to a front line squadron who (having had the required number of beefers) suddenly loses its required amount....does that Operational squadron then become non operational ?

[Pontius Navigator]

what happes to a front line squadron who (having had the required number of beefers) suddenly loses its required amount

Sounds like there may be a number of posting from one to the other :}

[WannaBeCiv]

AIJH

Never heard that rule (maybe it is harrier specific) - but I can't believe that the number is any bigger than 1! Is naval pilot manning that bad? Anyone else ever heard of that "rule"? :confused:

[spectre150]

Is the Naval Strike Wing a formal entity or just a convenient informal title for the dark blue element of the Harrier Force? Does it have its own people or does it just refer to RN personnel on one of the GR7/GR9 sqns?

[Mr-AEO]

I think that it's the whole kit and caboodle, including some RAF chaps (much to their chagrin I expect!). Least, that what I was briefed a few weeks ago.

[althenick]

Had a brief with Wings of 703 about a month ago. Because everything is now under the Crab system, squadrons need a certain number of QFIs before they can become operational. 801 do not have that certain number of QFIs, and so is not an operational squadron until it has them. So for now, 800 and 801 are pooled under Naval Strike Wing (NSW).
...As a matter of interest I assume that the SHAR squadrons operated with less QFI's than they do now, So given that the Manning is about the same why all of a sudden do you need more QFI's? Does this improve fight safety? (something the RAF seem to be very keen on)
How many QFI's are on say an RN Merlin Squadron?
Please forgive my ignorance but it sounds like rules for the sake of having rules.
ATN

[LateArmLive]

It's actually because the RN are unable to man two sqns. The QFI story is mostly spin. Last I heard was that 801 will not stand up until at least 2010.

[SSSETOWTF]

Due to the dastardly scheming of the Crabs the RN can't fully man their own squadrons. In fact they weren't able to fully man their SHar force for several years either (again due to dastardly Crab scheming). None of this has ever had anything at all to do with the RN's own recruitment and selection processes - it's always been the Crab's fault. In fact, the Crabs do nothing other than sit around all day plotting ways to undermine the RN.

One hypothesis could be that since the advent of JFH the RN have been consistently over-ambitious with their manpower projections because they're trying to hit far above their capable weight with future JCA sqn manning. You could also say that their bluff is being called and it would seem that they can't actually produce the bodies of the required experience and qualification either to man the cockpits, or to maintain the jets. Just a thought.

Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly

[Widger]

Might have something to do with that dastardly move away from Fightertown in ZummerZet to RAF Lincolnshire.

[Jackonicko]

Hmm.

I'm having problems avoiding saying: "Told you so."

You take an RAF Harrier Force that had no problem manning three squadrons with 13 aircraft each - and a pretty big OCU, and with loads of blokes temporarily away on instructional, ground and exchange tours....

and a RN Sea Harrier Force that was having some problems manning two much smaller (8 aircraft) squadrons and a much smaller OCU.

And you combine them.

Good so far.

But moving the Matelots from Somerset has some impact on their retention.

And you still try to get to a 50:50 structure :ugh:

Still, at least that has an impact on the retention of the potential RAF Squadron execs from the three squadron force who won't get a slot when 50% of those positions will go to Naviators.

I've asked the question before, and no-one would answer.

Immediately before the merge, how many frontline (800 and 801) and 899 RN SHar pilots were there, and how many RAF exchange SHAR pilots? How many of each were QFIs/QWIs?

And at the same point in time how many RAF Harrier pilots were there (and RN exchange pilots with the Harrier GR force)? How many of them were QFIs and QWIs?

How far from 50:50 was the overall force?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Jackonicko - I'm sure someone within the Harrier force also expressed the same concerns as you but no doubt the "la, la, la, not listening" rebuttal was used.

Seems to be quite a popular management style within the RAF at the moment.

[Growbag]

From speaking to someone on the NSW, the rumour that the RN didn't have enough pilots to man both Squadrons was not true, they had just the right amount spread throughout the Force, however it was realised that they didn't have the right number of QFI's (not only to man the OCU but also to fill the front line position). The RN didn't run the same system in the past, they kept their QFI's specifically on the OCU and checks were done there rather than on the front line, so it was a different system.
When the squadrons were to stand up, it dawned on some people higher up that the RN harrier force would deplete the RAF squadrons of over a quarter of their experienced middle management, and so everyone would be in the same dwang! So the wing concept was born (even though it is the desired model for JSF!! So it should be no surprise) and RN pilots are spread about the force and RAF pilots are on the NSW.....with 801 and 800 Sqns sort of existing under the Strike Wing mantle. He says it works fine.:ok:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

But moving the Matelots from Somerset has some impact on their retention.

Nah! Surely Not? Who could have predicated that? Apart from this PPRuNe thread from early 2002: The FAA is bankrupt - WAFUs read this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39493&highlight=shar), and of course the Sea Jet thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152) and other SHAR threads.

Or articles in the Telegraph:

Lack of combat ready pilots grounds Navy's Sea Harriers (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2000/11/19/nhar19.xml)

Harrier pilots threaten to quit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2000/10/12/nharr12.xml)

The loss of the fighter role is unlikely to have helped retention either.

[Magic Mushroom]

Moving Naval pilots from Somerset to Lincolnshire. Outrageous! Fancy joining a military force and having to get posted somewhere else.:hmm:

Good job 51 Sqn didn't do the same when they moved from Wyton. Or those hardened RAFG warriors when that closed down.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Maybe it wasn't just the move from Somerset to Lincolnshire? There were other changes for people to contend with as well.

What about the change of culture and basically being part of the RAF organisation?

Or the change from being a fighter pilot to being a ground attack one?

Or the change from being carrier aviators to spending most of their time ashore, and deploying as part of Strike/Air Command, with carrier related stuff being secondary?

I suspect for some it may have been a combination of the above more than any single factor. I certainly can see why some may have been tempted to jump ship.

[Pontius Navigator]

And wives, families, friends?

Some jobs are static. At an airbase in Lincolnshire some people serve their entire careers at one station with possibly an odd tour away.

One Air Marshal never left Scotland.

I believe the Navy was renowned for static basing.

Mobility may be an essential part of service life and part of the T&C but if a particular pattern of stability emerges one's expectation change.

Certainly the Navy never had any expectation of serving in the middle of England, Bath excepted.

[Magic Mushroom]

Clearly wives and families are an issue. But right or wrong, we live in changing times and the military cannot afford to retain everything they wish. I've had at least one dreadful posting from a social and professional point of view. You sign on the dotted line and you have to suck it up.

[Wrathmonk]

MM

Shrivenham or post-Shrivenham ....:E

[Pontius Navigator]

Clearly wives and families are an issue. But right or wrong, we live in changing times and the military cannot afford to retain everything they wish. I've had at least one dreadful posting from a social and professional point of view. You sign on the dotted line and you have to suck it up.

Actually you do not have to suck it up. There is plenty of evidence there.

For a start if your speciality is in high demand you do have an element of clout but it takes b^lls.

Then you can walk.

You can also refuse. An ex-VC10 Captain, you know the sort, the one with the extra wide gap on his No 1 rank, pushed like mad to get out of where he was and back on the VC10. The poster offered him Andovers - best offer. He accepted and then turned it down as Mrs Ex-Sqn Ldr VC10 had a local high paid job and they had an expensive house in a low cost area. He got his way for that next tour.

No it is the poor saps like you and me that take the rough with the rough that cover for thems what don't want to do it.

[SSSETOWTF]

Growbag,

I don't know who your contact in NSW is, but either I'm on a different planet or they're telling you huge porkies. To fully man 2 frontline sqns = 24 pilots (under the barking mad idea of 12 pilots/Sqn) + 50% manning of the OCU means an absolute minimum of 32(ish) pilots. And that's the absolute minimum for the barking mad plan. That's without staffing any ground posts or exchange posts either. When was the last time the SHar force had anywhere near 32 Royal Navy CR pilots who were current? I would bet a large sum of money that it hasn't been any time in the last decade. Last time I saw an embarked operational SHar Sqn it had 8 pilots, of which 3 were exchange officers -2 foreigners and 1 dastardly Crab. The QFI nonsense is a complete red herring and a desperate attempt by the RN to direct blame for their own failings at somebody else.

Regards,
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly

[Magic Mushroom]

The point is P-N that the Services HAVE to rationalise. In a perfect world we'd have kept the SHAR. In a perfect world we'd have kept the Jag for 12 more months.

But we don't live in a perfect world and we can't afford to keep all capabilities and bases. No doubt many of the FA2 mafia lament the passing of Somerset. But in a few years, the younger RN guys will be taking the pi$$ out of the fossils boring people with 'when I was at Yeovilton' stories.

Maybe some of the SHAR boys miss being able to shoot AMRAAMs. However, the move to GR9s will keep the FAA more relevant in the eyes of the politicians and they will gain some excellent operational experience. Certainly the job they're doing right now is of more direct importance than flying PIs off a CVS. The GR9s are making a very real difference on the ground.

As far as having to work in an 'RAF' environment, that's a leadership issue. It is up to the NSW bosses to impose Naval traditions and seek the best practices of the 2 services. Then they won't be in an 'RAF' environment. They'll be in a Joint environment. Jointery is the way to go and history tells us that EVERY time.

The RAF and RN SH/Cdo communities have had to adapt to an Army dominated JHC. The RAF GR7 guys had to adapt to spending lengthy periods in a Naval environment afloat prior to Afghanistan. It's a leadership issue.

The retirement of the FA2 is a major capability risk although one I can understand being taken. However, we are where we are. The SHAR is gone. JOINT Force Harrier is now centered in Leicestershire/Rutland and the Naval guys should look at it as an opportunity to move forward. The vast majority of the FAA GR9 guys are doing that.

Whingers like WEBF should follow suit.

Regards,
MM