Dirty Flight Decks

[jumbojohn]

Commercial aircraft flight decks tend to be terribly dirty. This dirt consists of dust, mainly deed skin falling from pilots in a particularly dry environment, spilt drinks, soiled seat cushions and various things that have been dropped over the years and not recovered and in some cases are rotting. It is not unusual to find water bottles etc behind rudder pedals that not only add to a dirty flight deck but also contribute a flight safety risk.

I feel that flight decks are “our office in the sky” as well as “our canteen”. We work and eat in them for long periods of time, in fact longer than would normally be permissible under current EU Working Time Directives and I am suggesting that our well qualified engineering colleagues phase-in a periodic specialised deep clean of our work place.

No other groups of workers in an office or factory environment would put up with conditions similar to what the pilots have to every working day, so for health and safety reasons, many of which are legal requirements, it is suggested that airline management insist on periodic engineering specialised deep cleansing of flight decks.

Does anyone know of any company that do phase-in periodic deep cleaning of their flight decks?

[Mr.Brown]

"No other groups of workers in an office or factory environment would put up with conditions similar to what the pilots have to every working day" because there not animals
Have you ever heard the term "the job is not complete untill you cleaned up".
Other workers do in general clean up after themselves.
I would suggest that you clean up after yourself like everybody else does in every other job. I have seen some Flight decks left in awful conditions that you wouldn't let a dog sit in.
My company, however do a weekly clean, its not a deep clean but a clean non the less. A deep clean to remove all that you speak would involve the removal of a lot of equipment and would not really be practical.

[alexban]

As of respect to the next crew we make a habit of cleaning the cockpit of any used item after the flight. Also ,the cleaning staff does vacuum the cockpit often. Sometimes,on long legs, one may use a wet towel to clean some dirty switches or pannels.
You clean your desk at home,why not do the same at the 'office'?

[doubleu-anker]

jumbojohn

Please tell me who you work for, then I shall avoid flying on them like the plague.

[HAWK21M]

Out here its the usual last flight of the Day flight deck cleaning.
Eudicolone is best used on certain controls too.
regds
MEL

[Mr.Brown]

Just ask any of your engineering colleagues for some wet/dry anti static wipes to remove your finger prints from the CDU's displays and instruments i'm sure they'll be happy to part with some.
I never did understand why pilots look with their fingers
I have to stop rubbing Skydrol on the headsets

[Flight Detent]

Having spent a long time on long range type aircraft, like Lockheed P3 and B747, the potential for these sorts of problems was always there.

I got into the habit of carrying 'wet-ones' and a good dry paint brush, to get out all that dust, dirt and crumbs that gets down into the control heads, especially on the center instrument pedistal.

Lots of time to get a reasonable job done most flights!

Cheers...FD...:cool:

[tropical wave]

Yep, I've been using the 'dry paint brush' for years. Works well. Cheers

[Tony Mabelis]

Bugs on the outside of the windows I will clean, sweaty forehead marks on the inside of the windows must be cleaned by the sleepy crew when they wake up!

[jumbojohn]

I'm not talking about general tidyness but deep ingrained dirt.

[doubleu-anker]

jumbojohn

This was part of your first post.

"....It is not unusual to find water bottles etc behind rudder pedals that not only add to a dirty flight deck but also contribute a flight safety risk......."

This was your second.

"I'm not talking about general tidiness but deep ingrained dirt."

What do you mean??

If water bottles behind the rudder pedals etc., is not included in general tidiness I don't should be.

[bleeds off]

Ingrained dirt actually justifies a thorough cleaning by specially trained staff on regular basis because I would not see myself permanently cleaning my working place for the sake of "absolute" cleanliness and I am not there for that.
However, self respect and respect to those who are taking over from you is a matter of good education. Some do have it, some others just do not.
As usual, and it's deplorable, the only way to compell people to clean up after their duty is sanction.

[allthatglitters]

The day I clean up the cockpit after you is the day you come and clean my ramp van.....
Here Here.
Previously I was wondering the effects of a major decompression and all that crap flying around?
Still wondering.

[Dogma]

Pilots should leave the Cockpit clean, many could do more!

The biggest issue is dust, crumbs and skin every where!:mad:

This needs to be an Ginger Beer function, i.e to maintain the aircraft.

This dust and debris does clog filters and does reduce component life. In one case even started a fire, fortunately the aircraft was on the ground in Corfu.

Keep the pressure up! We need clean Flight Decks!:ugh:

[Piper19]

Last weekend I had to rewire some instruments on a A300. I was crushed somewhere behind the center instr panel, between engine instruments, rudder pedals and the front bulkhead. You cannot believe what a mess this was. A layer of 5cm thick black dust.
But then again, you haven't seen a mechanic canteen if you say cockpits are dirty.

[kotakota]

I remember joining Lauda Air in Vienna some years ago now , and the thing that struck me was the incredible cleanliness of the aircraft , inside , outside , front , back , galleys , wheelwells ...............
The Flight decks were like the aircraft had just left Seattle , with loads of paint brushes and wipes available at all times.
The SOP was that any crew boarding an aircraft who found things not as they shoud be ,reported it straight away ie , before they got blamed for it !!
The inbound cabin crew were responsible for leaving the cabin in immaculate ready-to-go condition before going off duty( with the aid of kosher cleaners etc ). This virtually ensured the on-time departure of the next flight .
It was hard to work out the age of the aircraft while sitting on the Flight Deck , like flying a brand new aircraft every day.Every scratch on the panel was touched up etc , otherwise the main man wanted to know why. The aircraft were like his personal fleet of Ferraris and Mercs - you do not leave them disgusting , so why would you do it to a $50 million aircraft ?
Is it so hard to do ?
My next airline was a Big Airline in UK and the difference / filth was shocking.

[jumbojohn]

Please note:

I have the greatest respect for our engineers, in fact I'm a qualified aircraft engineer myself!

I always take the time to clean and tidy the flight deck upon leaving, I encourage my colleagues to do the same and I certainly do not expect any engineer to clean-up after me.

I'm advocating and calling for airline managers to implement a periodic, perhaps hangar input, deep clean of our work place in the interests of hygiene and health. This deep clean should be considered a specialist function using specialist equipment with adequate man-hours allocated to task.

And for clarification, I spent some time upside-down in the seat trying to recover the aforementioned water bottle from behind the rudder pedals without success so in the end had to enter the problem the tech log.

[Mr.Brown]

Jumbo John,
Like I said earlier alot of equipment would have to be removed for that kind of clean which would mean alot of inpestions (some duplicates inspections) and testing afterwards, not to mention the problems that are uncovered. If the equipment has to be removed for other maintanence purposes thats fine but the cost of removing things on that magnitude just for a clean is not cost effective.
When I worked in heavy maintanence many years ago areas were always cleaned when equipment was removed but I'd imagine now with the competition these days only the areas that are to be inspected are cleaned.
And as we all know its money that does all the talking in this industry.

[L Peacock]

Explored at length here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189725)

[chasing767]

with a great respect to engineers and job They do...

I must say I don't like You sitting on my seat with no protection cover.
Car engineers use it always I go with my car to make an inspection. Is it so difficult for some of You to put a sheet of material on the seat before you put your a.. on?
You use this seat for a while to make papers or ( happens now and then) to repair the thing that calls for you knowledge but ... we use it for much longer time wearing white shirts!

I always clean up the cockpit before I leave it ( bottles , papers, fruit cores etc - the staff I may be responsible for) and the cleaning service is not always allowed to enter the deck and use vacuum in the vicinity of the knobs and switches ( happened to inhall...) - so tell me who is to clean the hidden parts of the decks? all these small compartments for things like torches, landing gear emergency extension handles etc?

and guess who inhalls that filthy air for 10 hrs?

[PaulW]

Its all turning a bit sour eh chasing 767? The air of superiority appears to be with you, your the guy the rest of the airline are employed to serve right? A lesson I think you need.. and someone someday will give it to you. 10 hour flight 7 hours in the cruise... you know the answer to what could you be doing in between filling in the plog..

[Golden Rivet]

So does that mean you've still not had your line van cleaned out ?

[NSEU]

Is it so difficult for some of You to put a sheet of material on the seat before you put your a.. on?
How about your flightplan?
Maybe the company should install showers on the aircraft, so we engineers can take a shower before we enter the cockpit?
I hate grease as much as you do, but if you expect someone 6'3" to stand in a 5 foot cockpit whilst we do our checks...
I spend considerable time cleaning the cockpit at the company's expense on relatively short turnarounds (your wings may be falling off, but your panels will be clean). They don't issue us with vacuum cleaners, but we use small brushes and flannels (from the toilets) to shift the skin flakes, biscuit crumbs, etc from the panels onto the floor, where the official cleaners with their vacuum cleaners follow up. I have great faith in the intelligence of our cleaners not to disturb switches/flight controls. I've met cleaners who were previously journalists, policewomen, nurses, etc.... Outstanding people who are not scared of a little dirt now and then (unlike some people here).
Don't tell me your company doesn't issue you with Dry Cleaning vouchers???
NSEU

[Piper19]

My car repair also puts a blanket on the seat as soon as I enter the garage, but that's because the car is MY property. The airplanes I work on are property of the company, not of the pilots or engineers. So if the company doesn't foresee some blankets for me, I put my greasy a* on the seat without protection. You know now who to complain to if your seat is black once again. There were times I also carried an anti static wiper, and I stayed in the galley to do the paperwork instead of the capt seat, but I've had too many issues with pilots like these to care anymore.

Last weekend again, a pilot asked me to clean the front windshield. I told him to ask the cleaners who carry special products for this, but he said he would ground the plane if it wasn't done at the instant moment. I left the cockpit (5 other planes waiting), and he called operations to tell the plane was downgraded in autoland because of no sight through the windshield. I returned to his plane, removed the 2 bugs, I found a few scratches from the wiper that were out of limit, and said the captain I would ground the plane myself. OOh, everything was fine now for the captain and I was a good boy, but please let me fly today...

I always ask how they learned to fly. Everybody starts in a Cessna 152 type right? I fly these myself, don't you get the occasional grease on your hands when checking the oil? Don't you have to clean the bugs on the windscreen yourself?

[bflyer]

quote:Its all turning a bit sour

the way i see it..pilots and engineers are two highly professional groups and it should be beneath members of both groups to argue in this manner.
in my company..we do whatever is needed to dispatch the aircraft safely and on time without too much fuss

[Alpine Flyer]

On a type I previously flew the normal interval for flight deck cleaning by maintenance was 40 flight hours. One could argue that that would be roughly equal to an office being cleaned weekly whereas real offices are usually cleaned daily.....

On short-haul it is often not an option to have a cleaner vacuum the flight deck under supervision of the crew if on is to hop off as quickly as possible to jump onto another A/C.

"Self-Cleaning" has its downsides, too. We recently got an internal incident report where an overzealous pilot cleaner released the oxy masks during cruise while cleaning the overhead panel and an overzealous dead-headed crewmember shouted to pax to pull them over so loud that the pilots' PA to ignore them didn't register with the pax....

[DaveO'Leary]

Why can't the F/O be issued with a dust pan and brush to have a clean out on the fd, I read the F/O is not allowed to taxi the a/c ( most SOPS) while the skipper is doing the docking I'm sure the F/O could have a little tidy up.

Just a thought

[INNflight]

We shall start to wear white silky gloves when flying, as a lot of our Asian colleagues do in respect of the other crews on your flt deck... :D

all about mentality.... some think it's their God-given right to instruct others just because their stripes are gooooolden :zzz:

[HKG Phooey]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189725&highlight=filthy+flight+decks (http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189725&highlight=filthy+flight+decks)


It's been done before!

[chasing767]

again with respect to all engineers.
wasn't my intension to insult any of You nor the job You do hard and well.

it was a little bit sour but...
all I wanted to share with U writing the post was that I'm trying to find an answer who is to make it if you are too busy and first and foremost too qualified to waste your time doing this kind of thing, we are not even willing to do it but also NOT equipped to try ( even when you really think we should spend 7 of 10 hrs of boredom to make it) and the cleaning team is not allowed to use the vacumm cleaner to clean the panels.

cause the plane returns to service after the so -called cleaning and I see no difference. I still have my shoulders dirty cause the belts are not cleaned and I am sitting in the mess .

so it is all down to us. Neither of You nor I can be responsible for the whole industry but I do know chaps who sit on the seat in greasy jackets ( even if You AFSKAP have whiter shirt than mine...) and it is only my problem then when I have to present myself in front of , say, passenger . not a problem to You. okay,perhaps I am a little bit weird.


NSEU : it is not about the faith in the inteligence of the cleaning staff - I wrote they are simply not ALLOWED to do it in the fligth decks.

the reality is we can write a lot about it and no one is really responsible and you will always find pros and cons but... the decks are becaming more and more dirty.

I apologise folks if YOU found yourself insulted.


ch767

[NSEU]

You seem to be painting a grim picture here, Chasing, but perhaps the policies in your airline have led to dirtier-than-average cockpits? :ooh: (you don't work for BA, do you?) :oh:

I have to agree, however, there seems to be a general trend toward dirtier cockpits. There are probably quite a few reasons for this.... Less manpower allocated to cleaning, faster turnarounds, budget airlines lowering the standards... or it may even be overzealous safety officials not allowing cleaners into the cockpit even to clean the floors. The jack-of-all-trades engineering policy is not helping things either. As an Avionics Engineer, there was a time when my jacket was rarely dirty, but now I am expected to change engine oil, inspect greasy undercarriage, etc. (However, my jacket may not be as bad as it looks. The grease stains are probably a few years old...the ones which have defied dry cleaning. The probability of the stains being transferred to the furniture is probably quite low :O ). BTW, if our cleaners are working on our cockpits and I am sitting in the front seats, I will assist by cleaning under the chair and in the footwells with their vacuum cleaners :ok:

Re dirty seatbelts. Unfortunately, this is a specialized area. If you put it in the tech log, it may take a while for the problem to be rectified. We can't use any old cleaning product and the stains are probably not of the easily removable kind. Lots of effort will have to be expended to replace the belts (It's not a job you want to attempt on a quick turnaround).

Another thought.... Maybe management(s) are deciding that now that the flying public is not allowed on the flight deck (as jumpseaters), there is not the necessity to keep up such high standards?

Unfortunately, once the rot has set in... things will probably get worse. It's like walls being graffiti-ed (sp?). The faster you clean up the wall, the less likely it is to be re-graffiti-ed.... and if one is presented with a dirty cockpit, one is probably less likely to make an effort to keep it clean.

Perhaps we (engineers) did take offence where none was intended, but, if you're offering an apology, I won't say no :O

Anyway, I wish you luck with your quest, but judging by the forum response, I think you'll have to take your ideas to management (presenting yourself in large numbers) and let their policies filter downwards.... rather than risking the ire of individual engineers :} Perhaps health/safety are the key issues here... rather than "appearance"?

Best regards.
NSEU.

[chasing767]

NSEU ,

if our cleaners are working on our cockpits and I am sitting in the front seats, I will assist by cleaning under the chair and in the footwells with their vacuum cleaners

this is exactly what I have been doing for some time but do believe me it is not working as it does not remove the dirt - dust only. Have you ever seen a cleaning team that was afraid to enter the deck and use the vacuum machine when politely asked to so with me on the chair? I have. It was weird . They later explained they are still being told not to use the machine in the deck.

dirty seatbelts. Unfortunately, this is a specialized area. If you put it in the tech log, it may take a while for the problem to be rectified.

I am also aware of this and realize that it is not to take 25 min or so which makes me reluctant to put an entry in the log - maiking it a part of the game

Perhaps health/safety are the key issues here... rather than "appearance"?
well, I wrote this in my first letter - probably the words were not accurate and shifted the subject into the unwanted direction. We ( pilots) spent lots of hours up there having no chance to get rid of the trouble even if I spend 9 of 10 hrs of the flight polishing the panels with cleaning towels.
anyway thank You for a good word and understanding
best regards:)
ch767

[HAWK21M]

A Daily cleaning of the Flight Deck in detail does help in eliminating Dirt Accumulation.The difference is very Noticable.Although We operate Freighters it pays to view a clean Cockpit & clean Airframe.
regds
MEL