CATHAY PACIFC: A really really big flight school.

[A/T less]

Checkrides galore...countless written tests...endless linechecks....all the BS just to "keep" my job.

anybody else feel the same way?

The majority of your CX career will be spent taking tests....

FUK I HATE THIS PLACE!!!!!!

PLEASE GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!!

[HotDog]

A/T less, the sooner you go, the better for all concerned!:yuk:

[Aussie]

If its so bad, dont hang around mate, you cant continue to be so unhappy!

[inciter]

A/T less,

There is nothing wrong with line checks or PCs as a certain standard has to be maintained.

The problem arises when line check reports and write ups are influenced by factors other than performance.

Most people happy at CX apart from A scalers, are ones that came here with no real experience (single engine, light twin etc), or come from places where you virtually had to beg for jobs.

They just don't know any better.

[The Messiah]

Try moving out of Delivery Bay.

[HotDog]

Word gets around pretty quickly in Hong Kong. Doubt if Oasis would be interested.

[hostile23]

Hotdog you are a weiner! Is "yes" the only word in your Cathay vocab? A/T has obviously seen the light. Why don't you open your eyes too.

[HotDog]

I was wondering how long it would take for you to attack me. Why don't you stop whining and leave already?

[jtr]

HOTDOG, I have to ask (even thought I think I know the answer) do you still work for CX?

[hostile23]

Whos the real whiner weiner? Not an attack (defensive aren't we) just an observation of your opinions.

[parabellum]

Now if I was a miserable sh1t, (which I'm not), I would be saying to myself,
"Here we have Hot Dog, thirty plus years with the company, huge provident fund etc. etc. happily retired"

"And in the Blue Corner we have Hostile123, six years with the company, bitterly disillusioned, didn't make it, can't get over it, won't let it go, likely to do himself severe and permanent damage".:confused:

[hostile23]

And bending over in the brown corner is parabellum...........................so what's your point.

[MelbPilot85]

Hillarious

[Rice Pudding]

Rumour has it that we are going to be offered A scale in return for 90 hours per month, age 60 and 3 man ultra long haul.

Boy WHAT A DEAL !!!

Let me do the numbers...... if we had been given regular pay increments to keep up with inflation then we would all be earning more than the unadjusted A scale. A scale guys haven't had an increase since....well a long time ago anyway.

Hang on......if we give them all that then they won't have a crewing problem.....and then we won't have any bargaining power !!

[parabellum]

Don't need to bend over Hostile, I'm retired, like Hot Dog, but I am thinking what a difficult path you are weaving for yourself, so much bile, so much venom. Has it ever occurred to you that whatever problems you are having now with CX may still be there in another company? You are six years down the track from your last employer and maybe it won't be just like it was before? Your expectations are probably higher, early command etc. your new employer may not meet them, how will you feel then?
I could well be wrong but I get the idea that within your short career with CX you may have been baulked along the way? A 'do it again' check ride or just a bad report, maybe a failed upgrade? Hard to believe anyone could be so bitter otherwise.

[hostile23]

Ah no actually that's not the case. I.m just very very disappointed with the complete lack of any spirit in this airline. It is devoid of life. Why don't you read your own post again. You talk about airlines changeing. Could it be that since you retired Captain Charisma, that the almightly CX may have changed a tad. Please read my other posts and spare me the "must have failed a sim ride" bollocks'.I know it is hard for you to believe but there are other pilots other than Cathay Pacific A scale captains that can fly an aircraft to a high standard. Get your head out of your @rse!

[Mr. Bloggs]

In this corner, we have cx retired pilots and some senior pilots.
Conditions:


A Scale salary their whole career at CX

A Scale Provident Fund

Medical Cover (Unlimited) for whole family with worldwide cover

Travel Fund (based on First Class Travel) plus FOC Travel (contained into their COS)

Benefits Not Taxed

DEFO positions with the higher A scale pay (BTW it takes a 13-15 year B scale Capt to reach the pay of a 5-7 year A scale F/O)

Some with very short time before command

No Review Board (for those Cat’B ings or QL upgrades)

No Junior First Officer Positions

No Second Officer Positions

Made lots of money on housing.

= happy cx pilot and willing to work on lower conditions then their co-workers



In this corner, we have the New CX Pilot

B Scale introduced In 94

B Scale P-fund with Fidelity at the helm, no currency protection there folks.

Reduce Medical Care i.e. Limited amount and only in HK and country of domicile

No travel funds with useless FOC travel. Your travel fund is based on First Class travel. Our FOC’s are in cattle class.

Benefits are all taxed, more tax to pay on our reduced salary so less pay in our pocket equals pay cut

Longer times to command

Review Board to base your performance on what you said to some a$$ that deserved it or based on a report that you were not debriefed on, etc,

DESO Positions with longer times to pay increases

Cannot afford to by a house big enough for the family.

= One pissed off cx pilot.

Some of you have no idea of what the pilots at lower end of the food chain have for conditions. It was all signed away in 94 when most COS conditions are now at the company’s discretion and amended from time to time, salary change, provident fund change, etc. It did not affect me attitude.

All those failed upgrades must have been justified, just like the 49ers! But I think we might have hashed that one out before.

Is there something about living in another mans shoes before judging him.

Can I just have the A scale salary and the P-fund and do my 15 years. Some have stayed 25 years.

[NOR116,20]

Due to the “flight school issue” citing my own post from thread “Is there any HAPPY Pilots @ CX???? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=276459&highlight=cathay)“:

“6 months training before released – pure waste of money, that’s it! They should rather spend it for profit sharing.This everlasting inferior complex of “second choice airlines”! Under all means they want to demonstrate that they are even smarter than major airlines, and that it was them who invented flying.This is how it looks from the outside. Good luck to those who leave this circus!”

I can only agree and sympathize with A/T less and hostile23. There are too many of these “bend-over characters” among pilots. They should take an example how determined French truck drivers are to defend their goals instead of committing how thankful they are about their jobs. For airline managers surely an easy game!

[hostile23]

Thanks Bloggsy,

Says it well good post.

I think these A scale Cathay types that basically fell on their sword in 94 should really just move on. They have no place and no real right to make a comment on Cathay in it's present demoralised condition. Enjoy your retirement Parabellum, we're paying for it! Don't ever forget that!

[BuzzBox]

B scales have been with us for 13 years or so now and not all of us are as pissed off or demoralised as you make out. In fact, some of us are actually quite happy. Sure, things could always be better, but constant whingeing doesn't solve a damn thing.

What is it that makes A/T Less, Hostile 23 and Bloggs et al so different from the majority of B-scalers? Attitude perhaps, or just immaturity?

PS. I am most definitely a B-scaler.

PPS. Inciter, I came here with a LOT of previous experience, yet I manage to be reasonably happy in my job, contrary to your assertion.

[hostile23]

Pragmatic? Just another way of admitting you're a 'yes' man. Sorry Buzzy, doesn't wash. Pragmatism is the Cathay preferred replacement for a spine! Remember you can't hold your head high without one!

[exflyboy]

C,mon guys get a grip.

[HotDog]

HOTDOG, I have to ask (even thought I think I know the answer) do you still work for CX?

jtr, you don't have to ask as you well know the answer, as anybody else who cares to look at my personal details. So why do I bother to stick my nose in? The reason is the loyalty factor. Cathay and I, like most of my colleauges of my vintage, had a mutual trust between us. We went the extra mile without question if it was required and we were well recompensed by the Company. For sure, we had some malcontents like some of the posters on this thread but about 98% of aircrew were happy with their lot. The malcontents that left have been proven to be just that still in their subsequent venues. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, untill you have to mow it! I understand things have changed but keeping abreast of my old company's fortunes, I believe flying for Cathay still beats many alternatives. What I find difficult to understand is, why some people have to continually flog a dead horse instead of just packing up and cleansing your livers.:confused:

[hostile23]

Hot dog please stop. You're posts are really just indicating how out of touch you really are. What do you really care anyway. You've seen the best this company had to offer, rolled over and took it when times got tough and left the young blokes to pick up the pieces. Please dont tell me you actually care! I find it rather insulting that you sit somewhere and indulge your hobby of "keeping abreast of your old companies fortunes". Let me let you on on a little secret, there ain't no fortunes being made anymore. Malcontent you say. I think you could say ropable would describe my feelings better. I'm sorry to have to be the bearer of this bad news but your beloved old company, doesn't give a toss about loyalty, doesn't give a toss about morale, doesn't give a toss about conditions. Please tell you stories down at the yacht club mate.

[HotDog]

Well hostile, let's do a deal. I'll stop if you stop. OK? If you do, you will have answered my question in my previous post.:ok:

[jtr]

Sorry Hotdog, if I had bothered to look at your profile I would have seen that you are adequately qualified to comment about a job you never did, on a package you weren't on, for a company you no longer work for.:D

Keep up the good work.

"Well sonny, back on the convair we used to....":ugh:

[BuzzBox]

Hmmm, some people really do deserve their lot in life, don't they?

[hostile23]

You mean that same 'check' mentality the likes of Hot dog have devoted their careers to maintaining.........................................

Out with the old (farts) in with the new (blood)

What these old farts don't understand is that most guys have a limit to the amount of absolute sh1t one can put up with in a job. It gets to the stage where it is just not fun. Cathay is just no fun. Not worth the ever decreasing salary, and the appalling housing conditions, and breathing in putrid air. Hot dog and his "hobbies" are part of the reason why I'm leaving this sinking ship.

[BuzzBox]

Hmm, apparently the 'young guns' are the only ones that have had to put up with 'absolute sh1t' at some stage during their careers. I guess that's what being part of the 'me, now' generation is all about.

Hostile, you've been talking about leaving this so-called 'sinking ship' for quite some time now. How come you haven't gone yet? Please let us know how much longer we have to endure your venomous spite.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[VR-HFX]

exflyboy....I think that is just the problem..some of the posters on this thread have a grip...not on their life but just one particular appendage thereof.

400 Jockey is on the money, there is a lot of hate out there. The problem is that it is directed inward rather than in a constructive manner that might elicit some much needed changes.

hostile, I don't know what to say, other than you will destroy yourself and your family if you take this hatred from the virtual world into the real world. Without knowing what specifically has happened to you, I prefer not to profer advice but rather my sympathy.You should leave as soon as possible, for your own sake. Those you leave behind, can, I am sure, make up their own minds without being bombarded with bucket after bucket of pure bile.

As to lashing out at retired ginger beers, that would have to be the lowest blow I have seen yet. You are now blaming Hot Dog for your lot in life, when in fact, these are the type of guys that helped ensure the survival of the company that was still around to give you a job, albeit one you do not seem to want.

There are no easy solutions to the walls of division that have been erected and turn us all upon each other. Fighting to unify the various scales would, however, be a good start. Whingeing will get no traction in any organisation.

[exflyboy]

Hostile, please do us all a favour and move on. Having lost my job due to ill health you really don't know how lucky you are! My family have been to hell and beyond and you whinge about having a job that pays very well, is very stable and if you stuck it out would see you in the Left seat in a few years. I don't understand you. I admit there are things that Cathay could do better, a lot better, but just leave knowing there are people a lot worse off than you. You have your health and your marriage intact(I presume). Take this opportunity. Don't squander it. You sound as though you're at breaking point with this. You have made a decision now act on that decision. I wish you all the best and only hope you find your spot on this globe. :ok:

[BuzzBox]

Hostile, as my mum used to say "a cuppa tea and a good lie down does wonders dear..."

;) ;) ;)

[Numero Crunchero]

Hostile,
I don't know if you are aware but when leaving CX you have to give 3 months notice or PAYMENT IN LIEU. Since you registered on PPRUNE in April I assume that is when you gave notice so only a month or so to go. I am sure many of us here on PPRUNE are willing to chip in towards your PAYMENT IN LIEU for the last month or so if it will expedite your departure from PPRUNE!

[Mr. Bloggs]

NC,

If that is the same as paying towards the 49ers, I don’t think most will open up their pockets. I think you will have to wait a month at least.

Unless you are willing to fork it up yourself?

I think this is very entertaining to say the least. Deep down inside side, you will all miss him.


:suspect:

[Left Hand Drive]

After hearing so much about 'pprune' I finally decided to take a look.
I find the 'A scaler v B scaler' stuff absolutely comical - you're like a bunch of kids in the playground.
I left CX shortly after the 49er debacle and am much happier for it.
It all became too much for me after having to listen to all the whingeing spineless young pups with their experience inversley proportional to their egos. Face the facts you bunch of pussies before the green monster destroys you. THere are always people that are richer, poorer, taller, shorter, fatter, thinner,..etc. Get a life. In the end the brown nosers such as buzzbox will win over. You can't beat them so join them. I hear pizza hut are recruiting..

[BuzzBox]

So, I enjoy my job (most of the time) and am happy to admit it, therefore I must be a brown noser. Oh well, so be it. At least I don't spend my life being a miserable sh!t like some people on this forum.

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0248.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-msn-smileys.php)

[CruisingSpeed]

Freight dog, very descriptive calling hostile the board nazi.

Your “accusations are unfounded, what you talk about never happened, I’m alright Jack coz I manage to ride the system” attitude is the intrinsic problem and a lot closer to those denialists anno 1945 that you care to quote on this forum.

[BuzzBox]

Lefty, I was making a general statement, not referring to you in particular, but if the hat fits...

PS. Like you, I am more than a little fed up at putting up with the 'whingeing spineless young pups with their experience inversley proportional to their egos.' I wish the hell they'd all move on.

[newbie1972]

And while I am on a roll (yes, a whole 3 posts now!!)...

The CX training system is a shocker and in my opinion almost verging on destructive. In particular command training. I know it has been done to death. However I want to make the following points....

CX seem to have more hoops to jump through than any other major airline I know. In particular hoops of the political variety. After your final check, your file STILL has to go to the 'committee'. Why bother giving a guy a 'check' qualification if he can't actually 'check' a guy out and give him the nod?

The training management may have improved recently, however there are still signs of a significant number of trainees being binned (still for a few bizzare reasons). Nobody in the Flight Ops Department has got the balls to say 'enough is enough' and get a serious attitude readjustment program started up. It's not about lowering standards - it's about being fair and reasonable in your expectations. The acid test remains - would you trust this guy with your own family on board?

And before you give me this 'their train set' bull****, it has nothing to do with that. The command failures are costing the company millions of dollars. A few powerful and well connected individuals are costing the company these millions of dollars. The Command failure rate is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any major airline I know. The command failure rate is SIGNIFICANTLY higher on the Airbus (there are reasons why the failure rate may be different, but not THAT different). These so called professional managers simply refuse to look within their own organisation and I have a suspicion they are afraid of radical change as that may imply they have in fact failed themselves.

NR needs to kick butt and haul his managers into line. Why he hasn't done this already makes me wonder where he's coming from.

[inciter]

In established airlines such as CX / KA the only thing a high failure rate indicates is that their respective training departments are a JOKE.

If an airline training department can not manage to get most of their pilots (the majority of whom have been with the airline for more than 8-10 years) through the command upgrade course they have failed.

Aviation has never been an industry that promoted on ability or suitability and as a result it is quite obvious these airlines have ended up with people at key training positions that do not have a clue.

It is this sort of stubbornness and stupidity that costs airlines millions not carrying an extra 15 minutes gas.

[Al Kida]

The funny thing is, the people who decide on who passes or fails, generaly come from non airline backrounds, ie airforce and then had their commands reasonably quickly. They are the ones that keep adding the `hoops`. Where did their command grounding come from and so how are they able to make such determinations.:confused:

[newbie1972]

Well, as it happens, I come from a pure military background. And the general way was that you would never get to the final check unless you were going to pass. In other words, any issues would have been addressed BEFORE any final check - not after(as happens in CX).

To go all the way to, and subsequently pass, the final command check only to be told the next day that you have in fact failed due to the managers deciding you aren't fit, just defies all logic. Of course barring any major screwups on the day.

Unfort there are many ex Mil guys upstairs. I would have thought they should know better.

BTW, how many of our esteemed training managers and senior checkers failed their commands first time around? Sour grapes?