Ryanair Cadets - Contract info - (Please dont merge with 'Ryanair' Thread)

[AreYouForReal]

(MOD - Please leave this as a seperate thread so people can ask questions specifically on the training contracts and what it entitles you to and your rights, and dont merge it with the general Ryanair catagory)

OK guys,

Here is some light reading for you. This is the contract that you WILL be offerd on passing your selection for Ryanair. You will have the choice between this and a Broookfields.
I will post the Brookfields a little later on.
The points of interest are underlines, and then an explination of what your rights are will be at the bottom.

Print this off so you have a copy that you can look through and take to a lawer if you wish, (I have removed the name the contract was sent to, but this is a contract that was signed and sent this year)

Corporate Head Office Dublin Airport County Dublin Ireland Telephone: +353 18121212 GeneralFax: + 3531 8121213 Telex: 33588 FROP El Sita; DUBHGFR Reservations: +353 1 6097800 Website:www.Ryanair.com (http://www.Ryanair.com)

Department Fax Numbers:
Finance: 01 8121330 Sales & Marketing: 01 8121331 Flight Operations: 01 8444404 Engineering: 01 8121338 Reservations: 01 6097901 Personnel 01 8121415

RYANAIR.COM
THE LOW FARES AIRLINE

RYANAIR BOEING 737-800 TRAINING COURSE

_______________
C/O Ryanair Flight Operations

Dear ________,

Congratulations on successfully completing the Initial Ground-school and Simulator elements of the Ryanair B737 -800 type-rating course with our approved Training Organisation. We are pleased to offer you this fixed-term training contract as Second Officer Boeing 737-800 in Ryanair Ltd. (hereafter referred to as Ryanair) which is subject to your signed acceptance of the specific terms and conditions outlined in this document.

1. Position

This is a 6 month fixed-term training contract with a commencement effective from the start date of Base Training.

(a) Work Permit
This contract and any subsequent permanent contract offer is subject to you having unrestricted right to work anywhere in the EU (if subsequently you are offered a permanent position).
(b) Term
It must be clearly understood that this is a fixed-term training contract only (6 months) and that should a permanent position be available within Ryanair at the end of this contract you will be considered for that position provided your performance and suitability during the term of this training contract has been satisfactory. In the event that you fail to successfully complete your training then your contract will be terminated.
(c) Accommodation / Expenses / Transport
You will be responsible for your own accommodation and transport for the duration of this training contract and no expenses will be payable by Ryanair.
(d) Training Pay .
The Training Pay under section 5 of this contract will be paid and effective from the start date of Base Training (in accordance with section 5 of this contract).
(e) Licence / Medical Costs
Any costs associated with the upkeep of your licence such as medical costs will be your own responsibility. Any contract with Ryanair will be terminated in the event that you do not obtain and maintain licence validation from the appropriate aviation authority.
(f) Licence
On commencing the type rating course you are required to hold a JAR FCL CPL Licence (with all ATPL exams passed) and a Class 1 JAA Medical. Within the fIrst six months of joining Ryanair you are required to transfer your JAR FCL Licence to the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) and take out an IAA JAR FCL Licence.

Any contract with Ryanair will be terminated in the event that you do not maintain a JAR FCL Licence from the appropriate aviation authority. If you refuse to take out an IAA JAR FCL Licence your contract will be terminated.

2. Line Training

Your B737-800 Line Training will be carried out by Ryanair. This Line Training will be at a cost of STG£90 per sector to Ryanair. Should you fail to honour the full term of this contract or should you fail to accept any offer of a permanent position with Ryanair you will be liable to repay to Ryanair the cost of your line training to that point (the estimated cost of your line training will be STG£6,000).

3. Term

Your training contract will commence upon successful completion of your base check with our Approved Training School to a standard acceptable to the Irish Aviation Authority and Ryanair. This training agreement will terminate six months from that date.
The company reserves the right to extend this training contract or to offer you a permanent contract at the end of this period, however, under no circumstances, should this be considered a guarantee of future employment. If for whatever reason you fail to fulfil the terms and obligations of this Training Contract (for clarity this means you must be available for training for the full six months) you will liable to repay the Base Training costs of €5,072 (€845 per circuit) as well as any line training costs incurred as specifIed in Clause 2 above.

4. Training Hours & Base

Due to the nature of our training, irregular hours, including rostered day or night shifts, are a condition of your training contract. Your line training will take place at any of Ryanair's existing or new European Bases.

5. Training Pay

Your training pay will be at the equivalent rate of €15,000 (Fifteen thousand euro) gross per annum in accordance with section 1 (d) of this training contract. Training pay is paid monthly in arrears into your bank account. This payment will only become effective after commencement of Base training. No other payments will be made for the duration of this contract.



6. MEDICAL EXAMINATION

You must be prepared to be examined by the Company's Medical Officer or his nominee at any time during the course of your training contract at the request of the Chief Pilot or his nominated deputies.. Any medical report generated from that examination will be the property of Ryanair Limited.

7. APPLICABLE LAW

The contractual relationship between Ryanair and you shall at all times be governed by the laws in effect and as amended from time to time in the Republic of Ireland.

8. EXAMINATION FOR SUBSTANCE ABUSE

You must be prepared to be tested for illegal substance by the company's Medical Officer or his nominee at any time during the course of your training contract at the request of the Chief Pilot or his / her nominated deputies. Any medical report generated from that medical examination will be the property of Ryanair. Failure of a substance abuse test will be regarded as gross misconduct and may result in termination of this training contract.

9. TERMINATION OF TRAINING CONTRACT

Whilst Ryanair is committed to honouring the full term of this contract it must be clearly understood that in the event of unforeseen circumstances in the aviation industry eg: acts of terrorism etc., it may be necessary to terminate this contract prior to the full term being completed, in which case training payments will cease on date of termination.

Finally, congratulations on being offered a place on a Ryanair Boeing 737 -800 Training Course.

I, _______________, confirm that I have read, understand and accept the contents of this training contract.

Signed by: ________________ Date

Signed on behalf of Ryanair Limited:

Personnel Date

[AreYouForReal]

Introduction
You will be sent this contract and be expected to have it signed and sent back before you even start the course with CAE or SAS.
Fixed term training contract means that for 6 months you are classed as 'training'.
The terms and conditions that are in this contract - No mention of the terms and conditions that are kept in an office that you agree to having never seen them, which states that they can allocate 12 of your annual leave days within your scheduled days off.....meaning instead of 28 days holiday, you infact only get 16!


Poisition
6 months from the day you are signed off on your circuits, you start on this contract.
Term

Should a permanent position come available - This means that they can decide whether they are going to have a position open, you will be considered if your performance and suitablility has been satisfactory - meaning that however they feel, regardless of if you have finished everything in minimum sectors and been amazing, they can decide that you did not perform well enough.
Licence

It states that you must gain an IAA licence within 6 months of joining ryanair, but infact this contract is not an employment contract, it is a training contract, so when they tell you at east mids you have to get an IAA licence, this is not the case. You are supposed to get one within 6 months of being offered a full time contract.
If you refuse to take an IAA licence within the first 6 months of employment, (bare in mind that even if this clause did apply to the training contract, this contract is only valid for 6 months), they can terminate your employment.
(According to Various lawers and solicitors i have spoken to, if they terminate your contract, you are not liable to pay a penny back to Ryanair (rules of a fixed term contract) - and this is even if the clause that is stated is leagal, as on the job training, which Line training is, is at the cost of the employer NOT the employee, and you should not be liable to repay this regardless. A type rating however is different, and as you have paid for this yourself, Ryanair can not as far as i am aware, make you pay this line training base training costs back).
Line training

as stated above, it is at the cost of £90 per sector, (Brookfield is Euro 150 per sector)
Should you fail to accept and permanent position with Ryanair - For clarity and this is a very big one This means RYANAIR, NOT BROOKFIELDS! - They CAN NOT MAKE you taske a brookfields contract. They are and agency. This contract states it MUST be a Ryanair position. So many people have been caught out by this. Dont let the companies bully-boy tactics force you into something you dont want just because they have told you that "you are on a list of pilots going to dublin on a Brookfields contract". You are under no obligation to go.
Term

It now says that the base check is completed with the aproved training provider, meaning that the cost of base check is included in your Type rating costs, so whey are you liable to pay ryanair for this. (I have not worked this one out yet, and neither has anyone i have spoken to, but when I know more about this clause i will get back to you)
This contract will terminate 6 months from base check. That means at 6 months 1 day you are no longer under this contract, and if at that point they offer you a contract, you are not required to take it, nor pay the costs.
They can extend it or offer you a permanent contract - This means that they can keep you on £850 per month indefinately - however, the rules regarding fixed term contracts state that this must be signed and agrees by both parties should it be extended. If you dont want to be on it longer then 6 months, you dont have to. And if they dont offer you a full contract at that point, you are off the hook.
This contract does not in any way guarantee you of a job - says exactly what it means.
Fail to fulfill terms of contract - As they spell out for you that you must be able to train for the full six months, thats what it means. HOWEVER, once your line training is complete, you are no longer training, therefore you can tell them that you are not going to fly - this is now a massive grey area, as you are no longer in the 'training' part of the contract, but you are still in the fixed term part, BUT because they specifically spell out that you must be available for training, and flying the line with a captain is most certainly not 'training', there is slight anbaguity. (if that is how it is spelt)
Training hours and Base

It clearly states that your line training will take place anywhere, and you are liable to go anywhere during your line training. Once again, once line training is complete and you are signed off, you CAN stand up for yourself and not go anywhere because it clearly states LINE TRAINING!
Training pay

You will be given £850 per month, or E1250 per month, depending on if you are in the Euro zone or the UK. Most of the training is done in Stansted.
At this point i want to tell you what is infact happening. When you turn up at interview, they will tell you that there are positions for FO across the network, and will take your choices for training and line bases. You will almost certainly NOT get either of these.
You will go where you are told on the training contract, (and unfortunately you have to go), but once you have finished, they WILL NOT offer you a full time contract. They will however tell you that you are going to dublin on an agency contract, and stay there for a few months, and then come back to your final chosen base. How they like to put it "you do this for us, we'll do that for you". The trueth is that they are sending people to dublin, leaving them there, and not taking them back onto Ryanair contracts, and refusing to let them change base on a brookfield contract.
As a Brookfield pilot you are paid into a Euro bank regardless of if you are british and based in the UK, you are paid a set hourly wage, (meaning the 0:45 and 0:30 before and after blocks on/off duty time, you are not paid), and you are classed as self employed, meaning you have to sort all your own accounts and expenses, and all your own tax out. For some this is good, but just be aware.
If you choose to not take the Brookfields contract, which you are entitled to do, they will try and bully you into taking it. Dont be affraid to stand up for yourself.
And now the actual pay. This is what most cadet pilots are doing and earning -

30 day duty time = 130 - 145 hours
30 day pay = £850(taxable) = £750 Take home
30 Flying hours Average = 90 - 110
Actual hourly pay = £5.80 - £6.50
Actual hourly Take home = £ 5.20 - £5.70
Just to let you know, the average price of a room in a shared house around stansted is £20 - £25 per night or £300 - £400 for the month.
Parking is £16 per month for your car, and an ID pass will cost you another £50 odd. This is what Procius and Disclosure are for BAA airports, (which you have to pay for, and if they go out of date, you have to pay again for). Dont forget though that if you dont need to park your car, you dont need a stansted pass, and you can infact use your east mids pass at ANY ryanair airport as long as you have you licence and passport, almost meaning that Procius is an extra cost that is not required.
No other payments will be made durring this time - £750 take home is it guys, for 100 flying and 130 hours duty per month.
Termination of contract

If the contract is terminated by Ryanair before the full 6 months is up, this is supposed to be agreed and signed by both parties. This is a rule of a fixed term contract. Should THEY terminate the contract early, once again, you should not be liable for the training repayment costs, (If indeed this clause is leagal).
"Finally, congratulations on being offered a place on a Ryanair Boeing 737 -800 Training Course" - Reiterating the fact that you are training, not employed.Guys and girls, I hope that you can take something away from this. Read this and print it off. Hopefully it wont get merged into the big Hate fest that is the main Ryanair thread because this is specifically a thread for cadets on contracts. Please only post questions, and opinions and factual information regarding this contract, and the Brookfields contract, (to come), in this thread.

Thanks for looking, and make an infomed decision as to if you really want Ryanair to continue bullying and taking what they want from cadets and not giving anything back. If you do choose to join Ryanair, make sure you have done the maths, looked at the EXACT wording of the contract, and join with your eyes open. Realise that for 6 months, you will be their play thing, and you will be bullied because they think you have no idea.

The main one, if you do join Ryanair, Join REPA straight away. It is anonymous, and a union and unity is the only way that things will change. Stand up for your rights!

[jasperyellow]

Thanks for posting this. I've looked on PPJN about the brookfields contract and it states that all Brookfield employees are based out of Dublin and are bonded for 5 years. How can they bond you when you pay for your own type rating?

[High Wing Drifter]

AreYouForReal,

Thank you very much for this. Very interesting, but not as scary as I imagined. All the stuff about rights to terminate and wot not is pretty standard stuff in most, albeit non-aviation, employment contracts I have seen.

However, the one area that worries me is how long between TR and base check and base check and line training. I assume base check will be withing a couple weeks after TR and that line training takes about 3 months, so effectively one would need to figure in about a three month gap (worst case)?

I agree with Jasper, the Brookfield thing is bloody confusing.

However one feels about Ryanair, at least it isn't as vague as the Bond or bonkers as the MyTravel line and TR training packages.

[AreYouForReal]

At the moment, there is around a 1-2 week gap between LST in the sim, and then coming to UK to do the Base check.
time between base and line training is as long as it takes you to get the rating onto your licence. So if you base check weds, get the rating thurs, and let Tom Keil know, then friday you will get a roster to start on the following monday.
It seems to be around 2 weeks between base check and line training.

Line training itself is taking about 2-3 months to complete. Upto 150 hours and 70 odd sectors seems to be the norm from what i hear.

[AreYouForReal]

Brookfields do not bond you. What you sign is a 5 year employment contract with them, with 3 months notice to leave. All the confusing bonds are if you leave to go to Ryanair, or if you get a command, or if you leave within your 3 months notice.
I will sort out a copy of the Brookfieilds contract to put on here.

Just one more thing that i need to update you guys on. At the moment Ryanair are telling line training complete cadets that there is no flying other then Dublin on Brookfields - I therefore am slightly confused why they are doing at least 300 type ratings through CAE alone this year. If there is no room for them, why are they recruiting.

They have been told that they either accept Dublin, or that was it, but will not commit to either terminating the training contract, or giving people a full time contract. All cadets who have gone through in the last few months who are not allowing Ryanair to bully them into taking an agency contract are in limbo as to what will happen.

Just be aware that you are parting with well earned £20K with no job, and a B737 rating that is not as employable as A320 rating which is the same price give or take.

[kuchemann carrots]

Sorry if this is a stupid question.
What happens after you have been checked to line after the approx 3 months, but you still have some time left on your training contract? And when do the sector payments start eg. the half sector pay etc?
Thanks KK

[boogie-nicey]

JUst a quick one ... Are you for Real you mentioned that a b737 TR isn't as employable as a A320 rating, how do you figure that?

:ok:

[AreYouForReal]

Ok,
boogie-nicey - it is alot harder to get a job with a 737 rating in the UK if you have low hours. The reason being is because there are alot of Ryanair guys trying to get to those B73 jobs with more hours then you, should you leave after line training or infact Ryanair terminate your contract. That is what i ment by you are more employable with Airbus as a low hours guy, however B757 ratings are pretty hot property at the moment should you want Boeing.

kuchemann carrots - Not a stupid question at all. This is the limbo position that everyone is in as a post line trainned cadet. Your not entitled to any sector pay as stated in the contract. There is a romour floating about however that you do get 1/2 sector pay after line check pass.
With regards to the time left on contract after line check pass......who knows. They are saying Brookfields or nothing, but yet wont terminate the contract if you dont take Brookfields, (so far). Things could change.

[Myster Mask]

A question about start date:
Correct me if I'm wrong: the base training starts by a simulator where you learn to perform circuits around a runway, and the base check is 4 circuits on real aircraft. True?
And now my question:
in the contract, §1 "This is a 6 month fixed-term training contract with a commencement effective from the start date of Base Training.", meaning the contract starts the day of the simulator.
in the contract, §3 "Your training contract will commence upon successful completion of your base check", meaning the contract starts the day of the circuits on real aircraft.
=> finally, when does it start?
(excuse my poor english).
MM

[skyflyer737]

The contract starts from the day you successfully complete 6 circuits in the real aircraft. The sim session is just preparation for base training and not actually base training itself.

The sim session will take place at wherever you do your type rating, and the actual base training about 2 weeks after that, probably at East Midlands.

[Enjoy the view]

AreYouForReal

Thanks for all details. That is valuable information for all RYR cadets and/or wannabees!

It is hard from the other Ryanair threads to clear out the important stuff. It takes hours and hours to go through the 30+ pages on one of them.... without saying that a lot of it is outdated (threads merged) or totally confusing (moaning).

It is refreshing to read a thread that is giving facts about the airline and how/where/when the training scheme is happening, without hearing the usual "blame" story.

For most of the self funding cadets, what really matters is what happens AFTER the line training. 30K is a lot of money and one needs to know how the "Return on investment" will take place.

The training pay does not count really as this is good enough to pay the living expenses (not even). But in many other professions training is not paid either. This is bearable for a few months only.

So what counts is what's happening beyond the line check. Feedback anyone?

From what I understand, all cadets are now offered a Brookfield contract and not a Ryanair contract, which seems to make everyone rather unhappy.

But what's really wrong with the Brookfield contract? Apart from the fact that you're a contractor (self employed), is there something more that one needs to know?

Are you getting less money at the end of the day? Or is it because you're not "guaranteed" any flying hours?

Are all Brookfield contractors based in Dublin? It seems that another "version" of the Brookfield contract exists with no assigned base that keeps the pilot "floating around" between all bases?

If this is the case, what's the difference in terms of salary and roster?

Can some one compare with numbers what it really means in terms on "take home" salary between a Ryanair FO's permanent contract (if offered beyond the training contract) and a Brookfield contract?

Also a lot of Ryanair cadets come from Continental Europe, and the UK/Irish tax system is unclear. What really is the tax situation of, let's say an Italian pilot based in Dublin with a Brookfield contract, but with a permanent residency in Italy (going home off duty)? Does he have to pay taxes in Ireland or in Italy?

In short: any tax benefits of it?

Being self employed usually means that the salary is higher, but you need to pay your own pension, social security, etc... the differences can be huge from one country to another...

Can someone explain the advantages/disadvantages?

Any experience in that matter?

Thank you!

[Fancy Navigator]

Enjoy the View, you think that paying almost 30k for a Type Rating+associated expenses, then be paid £600 a month (with no sector pay) for at least two months during Line Training (look at PPJN) is acceptable?
If so, it is very sad....:mad:
Other companies pay you from day 1 full salary (or almost) and give you a good contract and stable roster/t&c's/way of life....

Why should you accept less?

[Enjoy the view]

Fancy Navigator
I would think it is acceptable if you get decent pay beyond line check. That is why I'm inquiring about the Brookfield contract.

Line training is.....training. Why not consider type rating, base training and line training as part of the studies, until you become fully qualified as a FO?

I'm sure the grass is greener with other companies, but do they offer you the opportunity to join them as a low hour cadet? Do you have any example?

A lot of low hour pilots (freshly qualified up to MCC level) invest almost the same amount in a type rating + base training, just to get 'typed' but without the job offer lined up at the end of it. Sometimes line training is extra but still without a job offer. Once the time is up (100+ hours or so); the training contract is over and it's time then to start applying again. (Look at bond solutions, twinnair, hubair, sfa, and others....)

I don't know what's better....at least RYR offers 'something' beyond line training.

Again, can someone explain the T&C's of the Brookfield contract?

BTW: I'm not debating the Ryanair system here, the hiring market makes the rules by itself. Take it or leave it really is up to anyone's decision.

[alex111]

hey guys any possibility of getting a copy of the brookfield contract on here? or even just the main points?
would be much appreciated...

cheers, alex.

[FMSData]

Here is a FAQ that I was sent whilst enquiring with Ryanair. Hope it helps.


Frequently Asked Questions


Ryanair Cadets taking a Brookfield contract

The following should help to answer most of the questions you might ask about working on contract through our company at Ryanair.

Payments

From when will I start being paid?

You will receive payment for your services with effect from the start date which is agreed with Ryanair. This date will be communicated to you via crew.doc.

Who pays for my recurrent training?

The pilot has 4.5 euros per schedule block hour deducted from his salary payment as a contribution towards his bi-annual simulator training.

Does Brookfield deduct my tax?

Your contract clearly states “The pilot confirms his status as self employed/sole trader or engaged to the contractor through a limited company.”As with every self employed person you are obliged by law to submit a tax return and pay the relevant liability to the appropriate authority.




We strongly advise the pilot to use the services of a tax consultant in relation to the manner in which you meet your taxation liabilities. Whilst we are not in a position to recommend any particular company we are aware that a number of Brookfield pilots have successfully used the services of Bob Scanlon and Associates in Ireland. If you wish to use their services they can be contacted on [email protected] ([email protected]).
For the avoidance of doubt Scanlon & Associates has no association with either Brookfield or Ryanair.

How much will I be paid?

Based

Captain – Euro 138.50 per schedule block hour

Cadets taking initial Brookfield contract
-Less than 500 JAR 25 hours – 60 Euro’s per scheduled block hour
-Greater than 500 but less than 1500 hours JAR25 – 80 Euro’s per scheduled block hour
-Greater than 1500 JAR25 hours – 75 Euro’s per scheduled block hour

Away from base allowance - 20 euros per scheduled block hour – only when flying out of base.

Non-based

Non based Captains 138.50 + 20 Euros per scheduled block hour

Non based First Officers / Cadets 60/80/85 (as applicable) +20Euros per scheduled block hour.

Instructors pay increments

If a pilot has an LTC or TRE qualification and is designated an LTC or TRE by the training department then the following rates shall apply per scheduled block hour for the duration of their appointment irrespective of if they are training or not:

RLTC - 4 euros per scheduled block hour
LTC - 12 euros per scheduled block hour
TRI - 6 euros per scheduled block hour
TRE - 12 euros per scheduled block hour


Simulator / Base training - 800 euros per training day

SFI First Officer - 450 euros per Sim session)


On what date will I receive my payment?

Payments are made to contract pilots between the 10th and 12th of every month, for duties performed in the preceding calendar month.




OPERATING FOR RYANAIR

When will I know when and where I will be based?

Your base will be allocated by Ryanair at the time of your official start date for your Brookfield contract. This will be according to where the current demand for pilots will be, however, your own preferences will be taken into consideration and ultimately most pilots get to operate from the base of their choice. You can submit a base transfer request via crew.doc.


What is the working pattern?

The standard working pattern for based contract pilots is 5 days on followed by 4 days off when operating from an assigned base. If you non-based, the pattern is generally, 5 on and 5 off. These patterns are not contractually guaranteed, but as a general rule this is the way the schedule works.


I understand that I receive an extra 20 euros per scheduled block hour for when I am working away from my base. How often is that likely to be?

This will vary depending on the time of the year and the general movement of pilots, acquisition of new aircraft and addition of new bases. However, about 80% on base / 20% away from base would be considered normal.


Is there a minimum guarantee of hours that I will be flying?

There is no minimum guarantee; however, generally speaking you can expect to fly up to 850 hours and to a maximum 900 hours per annum.

How many stand-by days do I need to be available for?

There should be no more than 4 stand-bys within a 28 day period.




Do I get staff travel?

You are able to travel on Ryanair free of charge for positioning or Ryanair business only, providing you are in uniform. It is not available for any other family members or for your own social purposes.


Command Upgrade

As a First Officer how many flying hours do I need in order to be considered for an upgrade to Captain?

You will need a minimum of 3000 hours total fixed-wing, a minimum of 1,500 hours B737 and also you will need to have been operating for Ryanair during one complete winter season.

Do I need to take Ryanair permanent employment in order to up-grade to Captain?

A Brookfield First Officer can take up a command position within Ryanair whilst remaining on a Brookfield contract; however he will be required to sign a command up-grade training bond (£5,000 sterling payable only if he departs within 2 years).

General

Do I have to pay a transfer fee if I change from Brookfield to Ryanair?

Pilots transferring to Ryanair permanent employment are required to pay a transfer fee to Brookfield Aviation of 2,500 euros, if Brookfield were involved in sourcing them initially.

How long is the notice period of the contract?

3 months either way.

How do I apply for leave?

Effective from that the 1st April 2008 onwards, you will only be required for eleven full calendar months by Ryanair. You will be able to submit a first, second and third choice for your full calendar month off, and a further 10 days can be requested on an individual basis through the Crewdoc system. I would like to clarify that this new system, whereby you nominate (subject to certain conditions) the full calendar month when you will be unavailable for work, will have no impact on your earning potential.





What about sick pay?

Sick pay is not applicable; however, there is a ‘compassionate payment scheme’ which allows for pilots to receive special payments in the event of personal trauma, bereavement, serious illness or injury. It must be clearly understood that this is not a sickness benefit scheme i.e. it does not apply to normal sickness such as flu, chest infections, ear infections etc.

Am I supplied with a uniform?

The pilot will only be permitted to fly if he/she is wearing a Ryanair uniform. It is the responsibility of the pilot to purchase and keep the uniform clean and in good condition.


How do I get my security clearances?

You will be responsible for providing references for obtaining your security/ID passes. You will have completed a five year reference check with a Reference Checking Agency during your type-rating course. Depending on which base you are allocated to you may be required to complete an additional five years check (for example Dublin). In this case you would need to contact the agency to extend your original reference checking.


What is the relationship between Brookfield Aviation and Ryanair?

Brookfield have been supplying contract pilots to Ryanair since 1994, and currently operates a large pilot pool. The pilot will be contracted to Brookfield; however, he will be entirely under the operational control of Ryanair. All issues relating to operational activities, basing, rosters, etc are between the pilot and Ryanair and issues of a commercial nature that affect the pilot are the responsibility of Brookfield Aviation.


How do I communicate with Ryanair with regard to receiving my schedule and relevant information?

All relevant information for Ryanair pilots is published on Crewdoc (www.crewdoc.com (http://www.crewdoc.com/)). You will have been given access to crew dock during your initial training and will have all the required documentation and information required to operate within the Ryanair network. Rosters are published every Friday and all communication between pilot and flight operations/flight crew scheduling is done via the Crewdoc system.

How do I communicate with Brookfield?

You can use the Crewdoc system to communicate with us. If you have a problem, log a query to Brookfield via Crewdoc.


Am I eligible for social benefits such as Health, Education and Welfare payments?

We at Brookfield engage your services on the understanding that all of the above are considered to be your responsibility and you make your own arrangements and pay for these services accordingly. We understand that many pilots wish to be accompanied by their spouse and family, however we engage only the pilot and take no responsibility for his/her dependants We do not support any applications for children’s schooling, treatment on the National Health Service (Medical or Dental) for the pilot or family.

[wee one]

What a f2ckin shambles.
i dont care how much you want to fly a jet this is bolox:mad:

[flyboy1818]

You would have to be guilty of clause 8 to sign that "contract"!

[The Loan Arranger]

"Are You For Real's" post is very informative and anyone considering applying for a type rating with this organisation should give the matter serious thought before applying.

Having been an experienced turboprop captain for several years with a UK domestic airline I foolishly left to follow a desire to fly a nice new shiny jet for a little more money.

The type rating went well, the base training went well and the line training went well. I met some really nice line training Captains who were helpful and excellent trainers.

I was unfortunately "chopped" on a base check by a rather unsavoury "trapper" who was known to be that way inclined. I never saw it coming and had no leg to stand on the way the contract was written.

Now I might be completely barking up the wrong tree and just unlucky on the day but the thought crossed my mind that during the very same month the position of a senior first officer for new entrants (to which I had been appointed) was abolished. Cadets are much much cheaper!

From experience on the type rating course I saw a number of people struggling and having to do extra training - at a cost of around £1500 per hour in the sim ( and we're not talking just the odd hour or so).

There were a noticeable number of names (crew Codes) that I knew on the training courses that I never saw make it on to any of the base rosters.

I do have reservations regaring the type rating courses being offered - I think that money is being made out of genuine wannabees.

Once on line I can honestly say flying the 737 was great fun - although the more hands on and short sector days on the turboprop were even better. You have to do it know!

Ryanair was an unhappy and oppresive place to work - nobody seemed happy there. There was a general feeling of big brother watching you and you had better not step out of line.

You felt very undervalued as an employee - I simply could not believe that they don't even give you a free cup of cofee or tea when flying a long 4 sector day - all you get is a plastic cup filled with hot water! You have to bring with you your own tea bags or coffee supplies!! ( you might get a sachet of milk if lucky). :ooh:

I'am now back flying a regional turboprop again. I'am glad I did what I did - I worked the jet syndrome out of the system and can see now that the grass is definately not greener on the other side.

I am not having a gripe about Ryanair - I went into it eyes wide open and am a better pilot having experienced what I did.

I hope my words are of use to some of you contemplating applying for a type rating course.

I'am not saying don't do it - just be very careful what you are getting into and if there are other alternatives don't dismiss them in favour of the perceived dream job on a 737 -800! :D

[as17]

I have recently started training with FR, and this is what they have told us so far that may be of interest;

During your line training you start getting paid on the Brookfield contract, if you decide to take it, once you stop having a saftey pilot. This usualy is after about 10 sectors of line training. You start on 60euros / scheduled hour.

If, once you have completed your type rating, but not your base training, and you require additional training ryanair will cover the costs.

Also, the Brookfield contract works out at about £35k before tax for the first year or so, provided you do about 850 hrs per year.

[Fireboy]

I have just been offered a place on the FR TR course but I have had a different picture painted about pay. You only get 60euro an hour minus 4.5euro per block hour for recurrent training once you are offered a Brookfield contract by FR which should be 4-5 weeks after your line check and don't forget line training takes 3 months:yuk:

[Canada Goose]

I've noticed this reference to 'block hour'. What is this exactly ? I'm guessing it refers to 'flight hour', which of course means that all the duty time is not paid for - am I correct ?

CG

[Fireboy]

Are there any FR pilots on prune that have just completed line training that could share their experience on pay with us

[skyflyer737]

All the following figures are BEFORE UK tax:

You'll earn £800 per month from the date you complete base training. There is no additional pay when your safety pilot is released, and you remain on a Ryanair contract until you complete your first line check which is usually around 70 to 90 sectors or approx 2 months after you start line training.

Once your first line check is complete, you continue to earn £800 per month on a Ryanair training contract, plus 50% sector pay which equates to approximately £11 per scheduled block hour at 50%. Be prepared for a fair amount of standby days once your first line check is complete. During line training you'll probably fly close to 100 hours a month. After line training expect 50 to 75 hours per month.

Some time after your first line check (usually within a month) you are most likely offered either a Ryanair contract (not sure of the payscales) or a Brookfield contract. The Brookfield contract pays 55 euros per scheduled block hour until you reach 500hrs on JAR25 aircraft. After that it goes to 75 euros per scheduled block hour, until you reach 1500 hours and then it's 80 euros per hour.

Those euro figures are if you are based at one base - e.g. DUB or STN. If you are floating base, add an extra 20 euros per hour to those figures.

[Fireboy]

The starting wage is crap but I'm trying to look long term instead of the first 6 months. Still not sure how I'm going to live at the start! I could always rent my body to some rich chic!:O

[Diamond_Dog]

Quote from FMSData's F.A.Q.'s post:


Does Brookfield deduct my tax?

Your contract clearly states “The pilot confirms his status as self employed/sole trader or engaged to the contractor through a limited company.”As with every self employed person you are obliged by law to submit a tax return and pay the relevant liability to the appropriate authority.

Can people who are on the Brookfield contract elaborate? (I am presuming you HAVE to be self employed/Ltd on this contract).

Have Ryanair & Brookfield successfully accounted for IR35 legislation in setting this up and avoiding employer NI contributions etc?

How are people on the contract managing this all?

Have people managed to get tax relief on training such as the type rating? What about claiming back on other expenses? How do people claim back say VAT on fuel for work travel etc? It is my understanding that you can't register for VAT returns unless your turnover is in excess of £64k and that even then you'd actually have to charge VAT to your customers. ie Brookfield? I can't imagine they would be too chuffed if you whacked 17.5% on the final invoice? But then wouldn't we legally have to charge them VAT? Are there any real benefits that people on this contract have been able to exploit for themselves?

Speaking of invoices. How does that work? We would obviously have to invoice Brookfield each month for what we are owed? Would there not be issues with people getting the invoicing wrong in terms of amount and time periods? Do Brookfield basically inform us what we need to invoice them?

Going back to the IR35 (just Google it if you want to read up), i can't understand how the tax inspectors don't have issues with this? All Brookfield people as sole traders only work for that company throughout the year? How does the IR not see this as 'employee' status? In this area then Brookfield/Ryanair would be responsible. How have they managed to blag this all up? What's the loop hole?

I'm not an account or a tax specialist and I will seek advice if I get though, but in the mean time can people who are in this system provide some advice on how it is working for them?

Thanks.. :ok:

[Anotherpilot007]

Exactly! Very pertinent remark Diamond Dog!

Well, what you have to know is Ryanair = Brookfield and Brookfield = Ryanair.

All new guys and girls go on Brookfield. No choice. Take it or leave it!
This serves a few purposes:
- As a Brookfield pilot, you have no say in Ryanair. This simply gets rid of all union threat, etc....You are just there to do your job, and that's it. They do not want you to get involved in the politics of the company, etc....
- They cut staff costs by approximately two. They pay a pilot 55.5 Euro per sbh (no money for standbys or holidays) and that's it. No Tax, no NI, no pension, etc..... nothing else than 55.5 Euro an hour. Another money-saving exercise!

In the contract, they force you to take, or impose on you the status of self employed. I do not know how legal this is? However, I am pretty sure the work you do does not match the criteria of self-employment as you can find them here and there, as Diamond Dog pointed out rightly. How can they do that, I don't know, as I am no expert myself either, but all it seems to me is that it is very, very dodgy. As long as they can get away with it, they will keep doing it.... like all other things!

As for people in the system, well.... I believe most of them do not have a clue, hence the lack of detailed and accurate replies here.

[TolTol]

The last two threads have hit the nail on the head. All other issues regarding line training costs, notice, benefits etc, are minor issues. I have shown the Brookfield contract to several accountants now and all of them were left scratching their heads. Firstly, they cannot decide if you are self employed or an employee. Just because it says in the contract that you are self employed does not prove that you are. It is just Brookfield's stance. Here (http://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/rev_dsw.pdf) is an Irish Revenue document to help you decide if you are self employed or not. As you will see most of the answers to the questions indicate that you are an employee.

Secondly, the income you receive from Brookfield is a foreign income. And according to Irish tax law (and I presume other countries) you cannot get tax relief on a foreign income! This is a major financial issue.

Thirdly, as has already been pointed out, are pilots required to pay VAT on their income if they go down the self employed route? If so then they will have to invoice Brookfield for the VAT. But what if Brookfield wont pay you the VAT! That’s gross – income tax – VAT!

These are major issues for the Brookfield contract and one which they don’t mention to cadets.

And by the way, I am no tax expert; these are just the issues which I have heard guys come across.

[Diamond_Dog]

There really is a lack of techincal info on this. I know there are several 'Brookfield' threads but it's all the usual clap trap. I can't find any real focus on how newbies deal with this way of financial management or related advice.

I fear if I start a new thread it'll just be dogged again by people who have no direct experience of it and just wanted to expell their random views on everybody.

There are meant to be some 400 pilots on Brookfield and they must be managing their finances otherwise we'd be hearing about all the tax issues etc on here.

Can anyone who IS on this contract shed light on how it all works, what their responsibilities are and how they manage their tax affairs?

(I know this should probably be in terms and endearment).

Waiting in bated anticipation of a favourable response.. :bored:

[Superpilot]

A reason for lack of info on this subject is probably because a good percentage of those on the contract are cheating the tax system. I wouldn't expect our European friends (Italians, Eastern Europeans in particular) to give a monkey's ass about Irish tax. :rolleyes: Sorry not a very 'favourable' response but probably true :ouch:

[CaptainJim]

Did any one out there get one of their 3 base preferences for FR?

[Willing to sell soul]

<500 hours JAR25 EUR 60 per scheduled block hour>500 hours <1500 hours JAT25 EUR 80 psbh
>1500 hours JAR25 EUR85 psbh

minus EUR 4.50 psbh for recurrent sim training (lpc-opc biannual)

This is for a Brookfield contract - starting, in my case about 4 weeks after completion of line training....so it was 3 months on £762 per month from the Ryanair training contract. :sad:

As for base....I got my first choice :ok:.... others got their 2nd or third choice, or maybe had no choice at all....its a bit of a lottery, all dependant on operational needs at the time. The bigger the base, the more likely you are to get it....looking at it the other way, the more desirable the base (Southern Europe) the less likely...

Good luck!

[Anotherpilot007]

One other thing not mentioned in the contract description......

The contract basically says that you will be fired if you publicly criticise RYR and BRK....:=:=

What kind of employer is that? (ooooops, I forgot you are self-employed!!!):mad:

[Crankshaft]

Just got an offer as a direct entry F/O on Brookfield contract!

Really I can't see any good in this contract.
Is there anybody here who working on a brookfield contract that can actually say something about it? How do you manage your taxes?
Moneywise I must say that at a first glance it seems like a much worser option than being employed. At least if you plan to be legal in terms of taxes etc. All depending on your actual block hours flown.
Also they don't guarantee any flight hours! How much do you brookfield pilots really fly annually?

Anyone who has tried to negotiate about the bond of 5500Euro they want to to sign? I find it really ridicolous to bond a type rated pilot with hours on type, but thats what they want!

[bluesideupsometimes]

crankshaft... have you decided what to do? are you gonna take the brookfield contract? from what I hear the good thing about it is that you are practically guaranteed 900 hours a year - true the rate is pretty meager when you consider living expenses etc, but thats all there is on offer atm

[flyingcamel]

Had a Ryanair assesment today, and had the scheduled block hour thing laid out for me. You only get paid for what the flight schedule is, not what the actual flight takes. So if you are told to hold for half a century, or there's a big delay then its tough doodoo. Interesting.

[Crankshaft]

Pressman... Are you a brookfield pilot? I've heard that the pemanent pilots may have more standby than brookfield pilots.
The contract actually says "maximum 4 days standby in 28 days". So if you have 5 days stby /month it could still be within the limits of the contract.
If it's still more than 4 stby days/28 days.... then they do not fulfil their part of the contract! But I suppose they don't care about this.
If I don't earn the money... then I'll HAVE to leave - not because I want.... but because I have to! And the worst thing is that I will have to PAY 5500 Euros to leave a job where I make no money!!!

I wish I had a good job offer somewhere else.... then I could tell them to F... off.

[CamelhAir]

The starting wage is crap but I'm trying to look long term instead of the first 6 months.

Then you're not looking very hard, as the long term is also sh1te. €50k for a captain? And reducing every week.

Diamond Dog, good posts. You are, I believe, correct. There are a lot, if not most, contractors working illegally. Revenue in various countries are getting interested, particularly the Germans and French. It is a certainty more will follow. I believe many contractors are going to be up the creak at some point, with both back tax repayments and punitive fines. Tax is a certainty, it can't be avoided forever.

Crankshaft, look at the big picture. It is in ryanairs interests to employ more pilots than required and ignore the contracts. Firstly, you pay for a TR (at enormous profit to ryr), so the hiring, far from a cost, is money in the bank. Then by paying you only for flying, you cost them nothing to have on the books and the flexibility of crew control is increased. Finally, as about 80% of contract pilots have no spine, nobody is gonna do anything as their contract is broken.
Contracts pilots are a huge reason the industry is f**ked. You may see it as a way in, but quite frankly what the attraction of being a pilot is any more is beyond me.

[MrHorgy]

Speaking to the UK Inland Revenue today I have been informed you CANNOT claim tax relief on your initial Type Rating costs, or any costs associated with it (accomodation, food, flights, etc)

The only time this would be allowed would be if RYR suddenly changed to Airbus and a situation arose where if we DIDN'T finance the rating we'd be out of jobs.

I'm still very interested in how Brookfield guys manage their taxes. For the record I intend on paying all my dues, and won't be clamming up on Pprune about what I pay and what I don't.

Horgy

[SD.]

What I don't understand MrHorgy is off setting the initial fees against your tax.

Say for instance, you decided to go to college and learn plumbing. After qualification (same as people with fATPL), you then buy a new van, and a load of tools that you need to do the job to be a self-employed plumber. That initial outlay is no different than buying a type rating, travel costs, uniform and reval costs involved in joining Ryanair. They are all expenses that you need to spend, to do your job as a self-employed contract pilot, exactly the same as Bob the builder and his plumbing equipment. But yet, Bob can offset those expeneses against his earnings, pilots can't :=

The problem lies with how do you classify self-employment. AFAIK, you need to invoice more than one company throughout the year to qualify as self-employed. This is a matter between the IR and Ryanair / Brookfield, and I'm sure the IR's across Europe will close this loophole on FR in the future.

Of course the IR will tell you that you can't offset the expenses against your tax, but I'm sure a shrewd accountant can juggle the books accordingly. :D

[MrHorgy]

I know, it's pretty shocking, I put it to them that as you were already a pilot and you needed the 738 rating to be employed then surely you could offset it but they said no. It might be worth trying to ask though, as one might have differnt interpretations of the relevant legislation. One thing I didn't ask is if you could offset a loan payment against your tax bill, that's on the list for tomorrow's call.

What you can claim (from what I can gather from my accountant mother) is literally ANYTHING to do with your business, as long as you can prove it is a legitimate business expense. Car parking, ID, your car, your fuel to the airport, etc..

Horgy

[Jet Fuel Addict]

Taking I will probably get a Brookfield contract at the end of Line Training,
I am left with this question
The pay you receive from BRK is 60E pbh. is that all or is that on top of a basic salary? (ppjn is a bit confusing with all this)

any info greatly appreciated

JFA.

[MrHorgy]

PPJN needs a cleanup to get rid of the waffle.

60E per block hour minus 4.50E per block hour for sim. AFter you have 500 hours it goes to 80E, then over 1500 you get 85E an hour. All with said sim deduction.

Working out of another base or hotbasing will add another 20E per block hour to your salary. This is all you get.

Horgy

[Jet Fuel Addict]

Thanks Mr. Horgy.:ok:

I think PPJN indeed needs to clean up his mess, at least now I've got a good idea of what I can expect. all these different rumours going round, I don't think anyone is sure about what ryanair (or brookfield) offers anymore.

Just out of interest, can anyone tell me what the deal would be if you join as an F/O for ryanair (not contractor) basically what the big differences are between RYR and BRK?

I know chances for these are slim but you never know, right? :O

Greets.

JFA

[StallStrip]

Dear all Merry Christmas,

I would like to know wether after passing a the Assesment Ryr give you any kind of documentation to enable you to borrow money from the banks for the TRC?

I have already been to see a couple of banks and they said they would need to see some sort of paper work, if you could let me know it woud be much appreciated.

Thanks Stallstrip:ugh:

[EGAC_Ramper]

Just for your info

Ryr FO payscale immediately after 6month half sector pay you get a monthly salary of £1300 after tax. Then aswell as this your sector pay comes in at just under £20 per hour. Although i believe the new Bristol base guys are on £16!!:\ So a full flying month can net you £2000 average month about £12-1400 and no tax is paid on this:ok::D

One thing to note however is this payscale in for the 2007 pay deal that some bases did/did not vote for. So once again you will have to find sum1 from a base that voted no to explain.


Regards

[interested123]

Ok, so reading all this Ryanair cadet contract drivel has completely confused me, I'm going to write what I think I have understood and tell me if I am wrong or right, and correct me, if you would be so kind! :)

1) On being offered a cadetship with Ryanair the cadet will be allocated a training base at which they MUST line train for 6 months. Although paid in sectors the approx take home per month will be £750 with all costs out and cadets work around 80-85hrs a month -or- 48? sectors? on average?

2) After these six months the cadet will be offered a 5 year Brookfields contract, for which the must relocate to Dublin. There they must be self employed, arrange all their own tax, VAT etc. They will have to get an IAA licence at their own expense, they will have to take a compulsary 1 month unpaid leave and they will get 60/80/85euros per sector respectively. They will again do around 80-85 hrs a month or 48 sectors on average?

Is the pilot still a cadet at this point? or a first officer?

3)After the Brookfields contract the FO will be offered an extension -or- a full time Ryanair contract on which they can transfer to their final chosen base. Progression to captain means 138eur an hour or 230eur a sector?

Can the pilot only transfer base after 5 years?

THANKS ANY HELP APPRECIATED!

[nick14]

Have recently been offered a Type rating course with FR.

I have been told that I will recieve a Line Training Brookfield contract from day 1.

As I understand the rates of pay will be nothing untill safety pilot release, around E25 (after safety pilot release) then after line check E50 untill 500 hours on type then E75 till 1500 then E80.

All pay is per Sheduled Block Hour, so if you are supposed to fly to dublin and back taking 1 hour, then you will be paid for 1 hour no matter what happens.

N

[MrHorgy]

Interested - Most of that is incorrect.

Once selected, you pay for your type rating. Your type rating begins with a week in East Midlands, then the rest at either SAS in Stockholm, or CAE in Amsterdam. You fund this, the accomodation, your food, your beer and easy women yourself.

Upon completion, you are offered the Brookfield line training contract (this is new since I trained, so details I don't have to hand), and ASKED where your preference to train is - they'll try and accomodate you as best they can. i wanted STN and got LTN, which turned out even better.

You will start ine training, which has to be completed in a minimum of 84(?) sectors. You start with a safety pilot, and once a minimum of 12 sectors has passed you are eligible to have him released. It normally takes around this. Once you have release, you start earning your Brookfield line training salary per hour.

Once you have your line training complete, you will be based. Again, the company ENDEAVOURS to give you a base you want - there's no point having unhappy pilots unless you got on someones goat.

You then fly. Get a rise at 500 hours on type. You remain a cadet/second officer until 1500 hours on type or 1 year service, that's when you get your third stripe.


You don't get stuck line training for 6 months
You don't get shipped off to Dublin with no chance of parole
You aren't tied to your base for 5 years


Although yes, you DO have to finance your licence transfer to the IAA.

Nick -

Yeah that's right, you get paid per SCHEDULED block hour. Doesn't make a difference on short sectors really, but sometimes the Sched is 3:05 and actual is 2:40. If you get a few long days this build up, then IF you get delayed one day, that surplus is evaporated I guess. The companies point of you is we pay you quite a lot, tax free, so if you want us to pay per duty hour we're reducing the rate. At that point, you can see your no better off. They do pay for HOTAC (obviously) if you get stuck downroute.

Horgy

[nick14]

Many thanks for clarification Mr Horgey:ok:

I have no problem with the way the company operate, its because they are so careful that they are so successful!!

N

[finals40]

nick 14, you alreafy getting the TR contract?

[nick14]

Not recieved it yet, just what I have been told by the office.

N

[TTango]

Quick question chaps.

If you successfully complete the selection and TR, is there anything in the contract that states Ryanair (or Brookfield) will offer you a job? Basically can they send you on your way despite having successfully passed and paid for the TR course?

[MVE]

What a shambles this company is! I pity all you guys with no other option but to prostitute yourself for these cowboys. Lets hope things improve soon and you get other options.

[MrHorgy]

No. But then again, CTC will not put in a contract your getting a job - infact no company will probably put something in writing. It's just generally assumed.

MVE - I'm happy, so are many other guys, we just tire of the bleating on Pprune. I get paid in Euros as well, so i've had a payrise of at least 25% in the last few months thanks to the exchange rate and the decline of sterling. And I still have a job. On a shiny jet. And... SHOCK HORROR, I enjoy it.

Horgy

[MrHorgy]

Sky Capt,

That is under the old system. The new system mean no pay til sector pilot release (about a week) then roughly 50Euros per block hour. Line Training pilots are cheap so you'll do about 85 Hours a month til your punted in to the big boys pay and you've finished line training. I make that roughly 4250 Euros a month before tax, converted to sterling at current rates gives...

£3,717.73.

Even then, under the old system, I worked for approximately 2 months at £750 a month, then got half sector cheque (tax free), which bumped it up to around £1700 a month after I got my first Line Check.

I am still fairly low houred, but last month I got just over 6000Euros before tax.

Strange, I don't feel like i'm being bent over the desk, like most people tell I am. Still, I could be at easyjet (wait, they stopped taking guys) on £1000 a month for 6 months. Yeah that's much better. :rolleyes:

Horgy

[GrahamK123]

And where are all these turbo-prop jobs?

[MrHorgy]

The Floor recognises your rant :ok:

The problem is I don't see any turboprop jobs going. When I finished training I was straight on the blower to Aurigny, Eastern, Atlantic and Loganair (who I especially wanted to work) but was met with a brick wall. Have you got 500 hours on type? Was the norm.

Type rating now will set you back around 28000Euros, so I paid just over £21,000 a year ago.

One thing I object to in your post is your accusation that just because we went straight to jets we have poor handling skills. I take great pride in my flying and I don't believe that's the case in the slightest. I regularly handfly my aircraft up to over 20,000 feet (anything more and it's generally frowned on) and will happily disconnect passing that same level in the descent. That's not a Ryanair trait either, saying people can't fly properly because they didn't steam around in Cessna's for 6 years is like saying you can't drive because you didn't race Go karts at 13 years old.

Horgy

[Mikehotel152]

I am interested to learn a little more about the requirement to obtain an IAA FCL once you join Ryanair.

1) Are there exams and significant costs involved?

2) Is it akin to validating your UK CAA FCL or does your original licence lapse?

3) If I want to hire/fly a G-reg SEP/MEP in the UK for flying in my own time, can I do this on my new IAA FCL?

4) Is it easy to swop back to a UK FCL if you move on from Ryanair?

Many thanks for any answers. :ok:


PS: MrHorgy I can only echo your comments about getting onto Turbo-props. It does seem like a catch-22 regarding those initial hours. What's more, I have spoken with 4 Airline Captains recently - Thomas Cook, Ryanair, Singapore, Polar - and all have said an FI rating is not worth getting. In any case there are no FI jobs... :(

[MrHorgy]

Under JAR, your licence is valid Europewide. It's more an administrative thing than anything. Costs you about 400Euros I seem to think, and takes about 10 weeks (paperwork between CAA and IAA etc). After that, you surrender your licence to the IAA either by post or in person and they give you an Irish one.

It's purely a paperwork exercise - any ratings (SE, Inst, etc) will be transferred to your new licence, and you can continue to fly aircraft on the G register. Be warned though, light aircraft flying is generally not allowed at Ryanair, as you might breach the 900 hours a year mark. I know some guys who fly, but do so in a slightly under the table fashion.

Horgy

[skiptoit]

I was extremely fortunate to be offered both a job with Ryanair and with a turboprop operator towards the end of 2008 just as things really started drying up. As a wannabe who had a grand total of only 207 hours and had gone down a mixed school modular route I was shocked to get either offer as I had expected to need to get an FI rating and do that for a few years. Faced with the choice, I took the turboprop job. I paid a small proportion of my type rating with the rest being funded by the operator. I just couldn't justify taking the risk with Ryanair. Being a contractor they can lay you off at any time. I have a watertight contract with my current carrier, I fly 50-60 hours a month and take home a reasonable, if not particularly spectacular wage, but what really matters to me is that I have stability that I'm not certain I would have had at Ryanair.

I got the turboprop job by networking, I came down to the airlines' base and sat around until I could catch the Chief Pilot for a five minute chat. It worked. They had never advertised the job and it was purely luck that I turned up the day after he had lost on of his other FOs to Jet2.

I do a lot of hand flying, and in my first 100 or so hours I have seen my flying skills rocket. I can't recommend it enough! There are a very limited number of turboprop jobs out there, but you need to get out there and search for them, you can't just send out CV after CV and hope they will come to you.

I now feel that when this downturn does finally come to an end, and that will probably still be a long way off, hopefully I will have about 1,000 hours of turboprop flying and I will be able to move up the ladder onto a regional jet or maybe even something bigger. But for the timebeing I am having the time of my life at a total cost of about £44,000 including all of my initial flight training and my type rating costs. Had I gone to Ryanair this would have been nearer £63,000 with the current £/€ exchange rate.

[Reluctant737]

Skiptoit,

I work for Ryanair, and I must say my sentiments near enough match what you've written in your post. To tell you the truth, I am SICK of hearing people coming on here, winging they've sent off 100,000 CVs to 10,000 operators around the world, and how there is no hope because they've heard nothing back.

Well done mate - I did a little flying down in Africa very early last year - sometimes 8 hours hands on flying a day certainly does something for the old handling skills! I do wish I'd have been fortunate (expeditious?) enough to have been in a similar position to yourself.

But that's exactly what people need to do. Get off their arse and get down the airfields/airports. Mind you, let's not tell them that - Darwinism was invented for a reason :E

Ad

p.s. MikeHotel152, airline captains are great to intercept and bother about the current situation in the airline industry, but 80% know jack **** about GA anymore. Not having a go mate, just saying the only people really qualified to make such a sweeping statement are the front liners - FI/CFIs, flying school owners, etc. We may all be involved in aviation, but there are many many sub-categories (more than you may think!), each with their own areas of expertise :ok:

[skiptoit]

Reluctant737, I like your Darwin reference! Let's keep it that way! Those who actually want this badly enough will always work out how to get it no matter how much effort is required and time taken. Congratulations on getting in with Ryanair. I've seen from your other posts that you have been there for about six months now. I'd love to have taken the opportunity but I really couldn't justify the cost. Now I'm in the postion I'm in I quite look forward to working my way up. My ideal job would be something like BA Cityflyer at LCY, so hopefully I can go in that direction. Anyway, congratulations once again and keep fighting the good fight!

[interested123]

Thanks Horgy,

not as scary as i thought then :)



just for clarification:

How long do you spend in Stockholm/Amsterdam?
How much does it cost, including accom and women? haha
What is the average take home pay for line training FO and a full FO please?


Thanks

[SD.]

How long do you spend in Stockholm/Amsterdam? 2 months


How much does it cost, including accom and women? haha Around 32k€ for the type, £1.5k accom, living expenses, food, beer and woman - depends how much you want to consume :sad:

What is the average take home pay for line training FO and a full FO please? I would estimate around £2k a month during line training (based on around 80 a month). Once online, anywhere from £1500 to £4000 - depending on what screwing roster you in for.

[woofly31]

Hi

Which bases are currently used for Line Training. Is it more likely to be Stansted, Liverpool, East Mids and Dublin? How long is it before you get your base preference. :ok: Do you get any pay for Stand by duty etc?

[nick14]

Don't think Brookfield has standby pay, only get paid if you fly.

I think the line training base is wherever they have to need and the line capts, that would be my guess

N

[MrHorgy]

Nick has it right, no pay on standby (unless you get called obviously) and Line Training could be anywhere. I think I once heard they aim for one LTC per aircraft so you can extrapolate that at your will.

Horgy

[interested123]

So after type rating you take a Brookfield contract, do Ryanair offer their own contracts? If so, when?

[nick14]

I think all the newbies are on Brookfield.

As for FR contracts I believe they can come with a command upgrade, otherwise im not sure, maybe if you have spent the 5 years with them and they think you will stick around.

[Mikehotel152]

Reluctant737,

No need to shoot the messenger, but no offence taken anyway. I'm far too thick-skinned. :p I don't agree that an FI Rating is worthless, but simply passed on the advice from a few Captains I know. Interestingly, one of them is a line training Captain at an Airline prominently mentioned on this thread...

What I didn't point out is that my other contacts within the industry include many FOs and FIs and they all reckon an FI rating is valuable. However, from what they've told me, from what my FTO told me, and from what I've read on here, FI jobs are very hard to come by right now.

If you knew me you'd realise that I am in no way like those who send off thousands of CVs willy-nilly and crawl into a hole when they don't receive a response. := You may well bump into me hiding in a bush outside your Company's office waiting for the Chief Pilot to pass by...;)

[adwjenk]

Ryanair contracts are hit and miss!
Everyone I know in the past year has gone onto a Brookfield contract. You can ask for a Ryanair contract if you wish, it has advantages and disadvantages. All depends what you want, I would give it 6 months after line check before you ask.
Just you will take a pay cut, but on a ryr contract your pay is for you to spend no need to worry about saving for tax etc... You do get paid leave and allowances paid once a year in a lump sum. That's about it really, sure one day they will come back when we end up having to many guys as contractors and few Ryanair pilots, only time will tell.

[AceOfHearts]

Im sorry go back to square one. Im confused as to what Brookfied and Ryanair contracts are. I will appreciate if someone would kindly explain, what they are right from the very beginning. I know this is a bit of a drag, but I tried to make sense of all the information in the different threads but could not piece together a full picture. This request comes after a lot of consideration and its not a lazy way out of searching for information, honestly.

Thanks in advance to anyone who explains to me what they are (from scratch).

[jiffajaffa]

Ace Of Hearts

You do not have to worry about a RYR contract because you wont be offered one.

All cadets who join RYR are given the option of "accepting" a BRK 'brookfield' contract

This is how it goes,

You are paid NOTHING until safety pilot released, to be safety pilot released it takes a minimum of 12 sectors this rarely happens it can take anything up to 30/40 sectors depending on your ability, if you do 4 sector days could take 2 weeks or so.

After you are safety pilot released you are paid 40.50 euro per scheduled block hour until you have been line checked (this is the final check before you are released into the line for normal operations and you do not need to fly with a line training captain anymore) this is a minimum of 68 sectors and can take anything up to 100 again depending on your ability,

After you have been line checked you are on 55.50 euro per scheduled block hour until you have 500 hours on type, expect to fly between 40/80 hours per month,

After 500 hours on type your pay will increase to 75.50 euro until 1500 hours on type,

Line training takes approx 3 months from any base in Europe,

it takes approx 6/7 months to accumalate 500 hours on type,

Be prepared for alot of standbys after line training due to a high intake of cadets in the next year,

Be prepared to be given a month off with short notice,

Ive recently enquired about a RYR contract and I was told there are no RYR contracts being offered indefinately,

Also for those of you wondering if you are paid any extras on a Brookfield contract you ARE NOT, you are not paid for standby days unless you are called..


Just a bit of advice for all cadets who have been accepted to the Ryanair cadet program

READ THE CONTRACT BEFORE YOU SIGN IT

JJ

[nick14]

Jaffa,

Did you recieve your Brookfield contract before you payed for the type rating?

Thanks
Nick

[MrHorgy]

JiffJaff has the details on the new contract, it works out better now because your getting more cash whilst line training. Only thing I disagree with is safety pilot release - 30/40 sectors, WTF? Remember it means RYR has to pay an experienced FO to sit and babysit(probably on the higher BRK rate). Unless your seat is facing the CB's instead of the big blue picture you'll probably get it in about 16.

Oh, and BRK contract issued AFTER type rating completion I think.

Horgy

[nick14]

Does that mean we go into the type rating having paid 33k without a written comfirmation that we will get a contract?:uhoh:

Another reason why cadets aren't that cheap, plus the extra expense of the line captain sat next to us.

Nick

[MrHorgy]

I stand corrected. I've just dug out my old contract I got from Ryanair when I started and it was issued before I started my type rating. This was under the old system of RYR contract for line training then moved to BRK.

I can't comment on the new deal, but the way they are generally worded is along the lines of "subject to your satisfactory performance during training, you can expect to be employed by us" - no us in the Ryanair contract sense, more us as in you fly our planes.

Horgy

[jiffajaffa]

Horgy,

Only thing I disagree with is safety pilot release - 30/40 sectors, WTF?

I know of 2 cadets in my base recently who exceeded 30 sectors without being safety released, it is not uncommon.


As I said it depends on your ability,not everybody has the ability to be released after 12 or 16 sectors..


Nick,

When I line trained I recieved my contract before I started however that was the old Ryanair training contract which has since been removed and now the Brookfield contract has replaced it,

Cadets are offered the contract before the line training begins or after it has started and not before the type rating.

JJ

[Massy]

..and when we'll get detailed info about TR? Such as detailed cost, duration, payment methods?

Max

[jiffajaffa]

Massy,

I done my TR in CAE Amsterdam before I started this course I recieved a contract from CAE Amsterdam detailing the cost of the course and approximate duration and breakdown of the course which had to be signed before I started the TR, this had nothing to do with Ryanair it was a contractual agreement with CAE Amsterdam,

This might have all changed since I done my TR..

JJ

[Massy]

thanks for clarification sir, was just to know so I can sort out everythig by the time..also becuse when I received the call for TR date I was told to expect an email with contract... was just wondering how long does it might take...

thx again

[AceOfHearts]

jiffajaffa, thanks very much for clearing that up. :)

[johnycash]

Hi Guys
I just heard that ryanair are now changing the terms for new cadets going on TR form march 2009 can anyone tell me about this???

Oh by changing i mean reducing if you had to ask.

[nick14]

We don't know and I am surprised that anyone else does as we haven't recieved our contracts yet.

I suspect it will have come from someone speculating.

Wait and see

Nick

[kniloc]

Hi, can anyone recomend a euro current account? I am UK based and need an account to put Euros in before transfering to my TRO. I would also like to be able to use a debit card for the account abroad.

Cheers for any advice you can give mehttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Zlin246]

Hi there,

Anyone else here starting with RYR on the 24th Aug? I'd be interested in discussing accomodation options in Amsterdam. It would be great to share with a group on the same course. Please PM me if you're interested.

Can't wait to get the ball rolling and get started:)

[g1344304]

CAE have requested me to send my personal details so that they can begin to draw up a contract and pro-forma invoice. Once they draw up this invoice does that mean I am liable to pay? ie am I binded for the 33k or can I still cancel?

Also I heard that the brookfield contract is a 5 year contract. Can you still leave Ryanair within this time period and if so, on what terms?

[adwjenk]

To leave the contract its a 3 month notice period with Brookfield and Ryanair, If you would like to leave early there is a bond fee to pay!

[gliderone]

You have to pay a fee if you leave before 5 years? or do you mean before your 3 month notice period is up?

cheers.

[adwjenk]

Think I made it very clear

3 month notice period to leave the airline, If you want to leave before 3 months you will have to pay a fee....

[g1344304]

any idea what the fee is?

[kniloc]

Hi has anyone who is starting TR 6th April CAE heard any news about when we'll get contracts through?

Cheers

[marchetti_310]

Hi,

Can someone tell me the REAL price for the Type Rating 737 NG with CAE Amsterdalm for Ryanair cadets?
Because it's still and old price (27k Eur plus VAT) on their site!!!!
Tks for all answers....:ok:

[sausage69]

Its still the same price.

For Kniloc, ur on the first course, Im on the 2nd one, starting in June. All our contracts will be sent out together, very soon indeed.

[g1344304]

When do you get the training contract from CAE? is it usually a long time before the course date? Everyone seems to have to wait a long time for the brookfield contract, I take it they are two seperate contracts?

ps course price for CAE in EMA and AMS is 33,000euros

[kniloc]

Hi is anyone who's doing the induction week starting 6th. April EMA staying at the travellodge? Just wondering if anyone wanted to share a taxi in each day / has a car and would like to share costs?

PM me if you're interested

Cheers

[EGAC_Ramper]

Kniloc,

The travelodge at the airport if you ask nicely have a courtesy mini bus and they I'm sure will drop you off at the Training centre. :ok:

[EK4457]

33,000 euros is roughly £31,000 (criminal for a 738 TR, but thats not my point). Plus living expenses for 2-3 months in an expensive city. Plus a wait of up to 4 weeks between TR and base training. Plus IAA CPL, uniform - the list goes on.

My point is; you will probably need access to around £35k-£40k in order to be confident of completeing the course before your highly unpredictabe first pay slip. Talk of car sharing from hotel to airport is pissing in the wind I'm afraid. Unless you fancy a bit of company for the 2 minute drive!

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the massive chip on my shoulder about FR which some do and I really wish all you guys well.

I just hope you did your maths first.

EK

[colincannich]

Hi I'm due to start my TR next week and have just been looking through my licence and noticed that my MEP rating has just expired. My MEIR is still valid though. does this mean I can still do the TR or do I have to get the MEP renewed?:confused:

[EK4457]

You're good to go. The last time I checked, those 738s had jet engines not piston! Just don't let your MEIR lapse. Then you can't start your TR.

EK

[colincannich]

Cheers EK, was really sh:mad:ting myself for a moment there!

[flyvirgin]

Can you clear this up for me, they say the type rating is 27,000 euros, do the company set up the finance, or do you have to find a way of paying it.

[tigermagicjohn]

You are not even guaranteed a job with FR after the TR, so doubt they will set up finance for you. :D

If you are lucky you might get to use the toilet for "free"!

[zerotohero]

there seems to be two prices floating around here for the TR, one of 27000euro and one for 33000 euro

i paid 28809 euros about 18months ago for mine

can someone confirm the actual amount for me as a friend is looking at joining, considering telling him not to bother to be fair as T&C are getting pretty poor

[kniloc]

€27000 + tax makes it €33010.60 for CAE anyway

[zerotohero]

thats gone up in price,,,,, dont think wages have since then, in fact with T&C's they have gone down

[flyingspeedy]

Hi, with a TR around 33000€ and knowing that Ryanair make it clear: “Successful candidates MAY be offered an opportunity to fly…”
Do you know if unfortunately somebody has already been told by RYR after the TR something like: thank you but we are not able to hire you finally…? (for any reason).
Cheers

[MrHorgy]

Ryanair have over 110 new aircraft to arrive by 2011. Thats at least 4 a month! Someone has to fly them, they wouldn't just train people and show them the door, unless they weren't fit for employment.

Horgy

[Aerobatiker]

My first post :ok:

Does anyone know what is the fee due to BRK for not giving the contractual 3 month notice period?

Cheers!

[SD.]

€5k :rolleyes:

[Rhodes13]

jaco best ask an accountant about these things. There is a most likely a double taxation agreement between Ireland and Italy but ask a specialist and get the most correct info.
Will save you in the future as I can guarantee you this.. you'll have a million and one opinions from the experts on pprune :ok:

[MrHorgy]

Indeed, I should think Italy and Ireland will have a reciprocal tax agreement.

Can you clarify, Brookfield are INSISTING you set up a limited company now? Who is this "reputable firm" of which you speak?

Horgy

[nick14]

We don't setup a ltd company,

From what I heard from the accountant was that we would be directors of a company that is already in existance with the accountant and we get paid as if we were employees thus avoiding all the IR35 malarkay and getting 500/month off tax bill from the TR cost and other expenses.

Quite a good system but it costs.

Nick

[Massy]

It sounds good Nick,but u mean with: "getting 500/month off tax bill from the TR cost and other expenses"?

Max

[captain_rossco]

Where is this information coming from?

Regards
CR

[MrHorgy]

That'll be interesting, by being employees of the company you are entitled to more rights than you are under the BRK contract, like SSP, Maternity, NI, etc..

Horgy

[SD.]

Just a tip, get your own accountant....... It's much cheaper.


AFAIK, only Irish based BRK guys have to set up a LTD company. If you are Euro / UK based, then self-employed is a much cheaper, easier option to take.

Do your own research into tax issues, get information from an independant tax advisor, not BRK or those linked with the company. :ok:

[SD.]

Fair enough Jaco.....

A friend of mine was forced to use a 'Chartered accountant', which is absolute bollocks. My accountant looked after my taxes long before BRK and he still continues to do so.

Another friend contacted one of the associated accountants and was quoted an absurd amount of money to look after his books.

Just be careful and check the wording of the contract, don't line the pockets of other companies wanting a slice of your money.

[nick14]

The information I have recieved is from the CXE accountants or the contract itself.

Nick

[tony_the_tiger]

Just looked up CXE and:

What is the cost?
Our fee is 5% of your invoice value capped to the maximum of €300 a month.


so roughly 2000+ EUR a year :eek:

Easy money for them :yuk:

[ballyboley]

Whatever you do, don't go paying anyone 2000Eur to do your accounts! There isn't much to be done and if you do alot of the work yourself like keep good excel sheet logs of your expenses and receipts, you should be paying more like 600 a year.
What others have said is correct, any accountant can look after you - just because its aviation, its nothing that out of the ordinary. In the UK I think Self Employed is the easiest option by far and much cheaper/simpler.
Just get a decent accountant that's good at making your "company" keep making losses and you're sorted!
For what it's worth myself and a few others were recommended McNamera & Associates and found them to be very difficult to get in touch with - maybe OK if you live in Dublin but I use someone local to me.

[Massy]

what I personally don't understand is if we are obligated to chose btw to accountancy firm provided in FAQ of contract to establish an Irish LTD or not.

For instance, I am Italian, can I chose an Italian accountant to look fwd my tax??
I really cant understand this particular part because Faq clearly states that we're obliged to set up our taxation arrangements in Ireland, and we just need to contact accountancy firm provided in FAQ as said before....
I personally would rather prefer to be a self employed in italy with my italian accountant and pay tax here as still reside in italy (travelling to and from home-base to take service with ryr)


THX everybody!


Max

[nick14]

I have been quoted 3%,

It clearly states that we must hold our accounts with either of the three companys stated, otherwise brookfield will not deal with us.:ugh:

It means that we do loose a bit of our wage but it seems we have no choice.

Nick

[SD.]

There is a choice.... don't sign a contract that forces you to part with €2k per annum. :ok:

[nick14]

Ok,

nice idea but then we are stuck without jobs, again

Nick

[ballyboley]

I cant believe they are now forcing the accountant arrangements, probably with some sort of a kickback from said accountants! The deal was bad enough before but this is just becoming a joke. The whole system is right on the edge of falling foul of IR34 legislation in the UK anyway and I really can't see how they can force you down this route as well - stand up for yourself as SD says, dont just blindly sign the thing - so long as people keep agreeing to these lower conditions, things are only going to get worse for all of us *sigh*

[Leap]

Anyone heard from the april guys to see how they got on with the Indoc week at EMA last week? Be interested to hear about it.

McNamara accounting - isnt there an exec at RYR called McNamara?

Leap