So, who was the muppet....?

[ATCO17]

Reds came through the London CTZ about 15 minutes ago, exiting via Northwood and just North of Chiltern. Suprise suprise...about three aircraft sitting dead on the route between 1000' and 2400' One of them, probably a R22 or R44, judging by it's groundspeed, came within a mile and 200' of the formation. I know this is class G airspace, but surely......:ugh:

[RINKER]

Point taken but as a matter of interest you mention groundspeed ?. To a certain extent the R22 but the R44 could have a similar groundspeed to a number of rotary and fixed wing aircraft and no it wasn,t me.
R

[ATCO17]

True..could've been any type of small rotary really, GS was less than 30kts, so possibly in a tight orbit. Just seemed to me that one or two folks were intentionally along the route for a good vantage point. Luckily the traffic was called to the Reds and they popped smoke to make themselves more conspicuous. Leader got visual with the unknown at about a mile and a half.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Looking on todays NOTAMs, the only Red Arrows reference visible is:

EGXP
NAVW: Q)EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/095/5318N00033W005
FROM 07/05/19 14:10 TO 07/05/19 14:50 J2080/07
E)AUS 07-05-0511/1436/AS1
RESTRICTED AREA (TEMPORARY) HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552.201.135.9) FOR A RED ARROWS DISPLAY WI 5NM RAD 5318N 00033W (SCAMPTON - LINCOLNSHIRE) UP TO 9500FT AMSL. OPS CONTROL RAF SCAMPTON ATC 01522 733055.
F)SFC G)9500FT AMSL

Last I looked, London CTZ and RAF Scampton were nowhere near each other - or in other words, why shouldn't a couple of light helicopters be doing whatever they liked in class G airspace?

Putting on smoke and avoiding seems perfectly reasonable action on the part of the Red Arrows, but surely they were just applying VFR see-and-avoid principles.

Or am I missing something?

G

[Bravo73]

You're not missing anything, Genghis.

As you are probably aware, the Reds' route (and timings) were published recently:

http://www.pipercub.flyer.co.uk/flyerforum/RedArrows.JPG

Maybe ATCO17 regards this as a form of TA(R) rather than an invitation to spectate (which it turned out to be)...?

[jammydonut]

Live pictures on BBC no doubt relayed from at least one of the rotories and possibly Sky news as well.

[ATCO17]

British Isles Daily Nav Warnings....

NAVW: Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/W/000/025/5133N00016W006
FROM 07/05/19 13:40 TO 07/05/19 14:00
E) AUS 07-05-0235/1415/AS1
FLYPAST BY THE RED ARROWS WI 6NM 5133N 00016W (WEMBLEY STADIUM - LONDON). INBOUND ROUTE VIA 5143N 0037E - 5133N 00010E - DATUM (1350HR). OUTBOUND ROUTE VIA 5138N 00028W (RICKMANSWORTH). AUS ACN 2007-05-0235 DATED 3 MAY 07 REFERS.
F) SFC G) 2500FT AMSL

Guess you missed something!

[Presstransdown]

I really cannot see the problem here.

Notam says warning so be warned

Look out of the window in the normal fashion.

They are a lot easier to see than many other aerial contraptions in the open FIR

Press

[bladewashout]

I've had them fly about 400ft below me when I was just outside Luton zone. Very pretty, heard on Luton frequency that they were coming and we managed to avoid each other. Bear in mind that there are 8 (?) of them looking, there's only one of us in our a/c.

What do you want us to do - all hit the deck as soon as there's a NOTAM that the reds are out today if we are within 10 miles and an hour of their route?

We are all in uncontrolled airspace, if they need IFR only, they are welcome to go higher and miss all of us by a long way. They get FIS or RIS if they want it.

I think part of the Red arrows display is flying low between points so lots of people get to see them. They must be used to seeing us GA's floating about.
Infringing a display is completely different, but complaining about people being in uncontrolled airspace is a nonsense!

BW

[ATCO17]

Guys, I'm not trying to make a mega deal of this...Press, you are quite correct.."look out of the window", and "they are easier to see than a lot of other aerial contraptions..."

Yes, maybe nine red Hawks, trailing smoke are easily spotted from a slow moving helicopter, but imagine it the other way round...trying to spot a small, almost static helicopter, at low level and 300 knots, from the confined cockpit of a fast jet.

Indeed, Class G airspace is there for all to use and enjoy, without too many prohibitions. I'm simply questioning the wisdom of a pilot placing himself in close proximity to a formation of nine fast jets!.

[Max Contingency]

Indeed, Class G airspace is there for all to use and enjoy, without too many prohibitions. I'm simply questioning the wisdom of a pilot placing himself in close proximity to a formation of nine fast jets!.

Perhaps you should be questioning the wisdom of a formation of nine fast jets transiting Class G airspace on a weekend right in the middle of the traditional GA height band?

[Curtis E Carr]

Guys, I'm not trying to make a mega deal of this...

Best you change the title of this thread, then.

[scooter boy]

I quite agree that infringing a display (when each pilot is concentrating on his colleagues rather than scanning for traffic) is one thing, but when they are transiting in open airspace they have 9 pairs of eyes for our 1.
No muppets here as far as I can see.

Do they have TCAS? and if not why not?


SB

[Sailor Vee]

Never heard of 'Heli-Telis' ATCO17, how do you think the BBC managed to get shots of the reds over the stadium?

For the others who state they have x number of eyes looking out, how do you think they formate on the leader/each other?

[AlanM]

There is absolutley NO ATC reason why they could not have climbed to 3000ft after Wembley and routed out like one of your Northolt outbounds. (Or for that matter come in inside CAS and descend if VMC)

There have been a number of incidents with London flypasts in the last few years.

http://tinyurl.com/2avf8q OR
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/423/02_07_assessed_airprox.pdf INCIDENT 143/06

More should be done to avoid risks like this in the future. They had planned to fly at 1500ft but the nav warning said SFC-2500ft (base of CAS of course!) Why not just say what they are PLANNING to do in the remarks?

I hope the rotary guys out of Denham (or wherever!) got some good pics. The only thing they perhaps should of done is be on the freq that was working the Reds. (Northolt 126.45 I guess)

Thinking about it, why not publish the intended freqs to give traffic a clue???

Finally, does a hawk fly out of the sky at less than 300kts???

[JimBall]

And this underlines some fundamental differences between an ATCO brain and a heli brain. ATCO thinks that GA traffic in Glass G is inferior to the Reds. ATCO doesn't understand that the heli pilots were probably well aware what was going on - and with the vis today could see the Reds from Bovingdon before they even got to Wembley.

For heaven's sake - why headline your enquiry with the word "Muppet" ? Is that how you pre-judge people from what you see on your screen rather than knowing the full facts ?

Even worse, you've insulted Kermit. :oh:

[helicopter-redeye]

... just North of Chiltern. Suprise suprise...about three aircraft sitting dead on the route between 1000' and 2400' One of them, probably a R22 or R44, judging by it's groundspeed, ...

Just North of Chiltern (NDB) also happend to be the entry (or exit, subject wind) lane for Denham, which might account for why these air/ heli pilots were there.

Was this location and the e/e lane location not covered in the planning briefing for the display pilots?

h-r;)

[ATCO17]

Apologies to Kermit...and anyone else that may have been offended! The term Muppet was intended to be tongue in cheek!
Alan, as per the TOI, they then proceded to Rickmansworth for a flypast, however, at 1000ft rather than the published 1500 ft that we were briefed . The TOI then says ""the formation may climb, if required by the formation leader, remaining clear of controlled airspace" The restriction of remaining clear seems to have been placed on the formation by TC. That would still have kept them in bandit country.
The Reds nearly always transit at 2500 or below within the UK. And I further agree that it seems a daft altitude, especially at weekends when there is a lot more GA traffic about. The formation was talking to City Radar, Northolt and even Denham during the transit, all of whom were providing plenty of traffic information. But, depsite there being plent of 7000 squawks along the route outside the CTZ, none were heard on the RT.
I suppose, at the end of a long day, I'm just a little suprised that any GA pilots operating in the local area didn't call anyone for at least a FIS. We are all here to look out for each other and always more than willing to help.
Rant over!

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I'm just a little suprised that any GA pilots operating in the local area didn't call anyone for at least a FIS
The City controllers have made it quite clear here and on other forums that they do not want to be disturbed by GA traffic outside controlled outspace.

[AlanM]

Tall Guy - you mean the "Thames Controllers" - not City Radar which is a discrete freq for flypasts/no 2 director at EGLC.

However, during flypasts the freqs should be published and envouraged to MONITOR! (Even I would accept you calling if you expected to be in the same place at the same time etc) The people on 132.7 get annoyed when traffic at the Lea Valley calls routeing Elstree to Southend via Stapleford overhead at 1500ft. But that is a thread to itself.

ATCO17 - keep ranting if it helps mate!!! Speak on the landline/telephone checks!!! :) Just another day in paradise fella. (You have the space old chap!!!)

Personally, I think the whole system is flawed. Flypast jets should be given a better routeing and access to CAS to make it safer for them, safer for joe public who need protecting(!!:)) and easier for us.:ugh:

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Alan - you are quite right, I did!

[Hover Bovver]

Maybe they should slow down,just like everyone else has to at those levels:)

[bladewashout]

Asking for a FIS is fine, but on a busy day, it's not unusual to hear 3 or more GA pilots calling into (say) Luton for a FIS and being asked to stand by.

I've managed to get all the way from Sandy to Panshanger without making it out of the standby stack, after which I don't need the service anyway!

If you've heard a few standbys and it's sounding as if the controllers are busy, then I tend to give a FIS request a miss if I'm reasonably happy with the airspace, partly to lessen their load.

The new conspicuity (sp?) code around Luton/Stansted is great for this kind of issue.

Also, some of us are just 'floating around', no particular place to go, just enjoying the scenery. It feels a bit daft calling in for FIS with direction described as bimbling about! :)

BW

[outofwhack]

The Red Arrows dont have nine sets of eyes to look out.

Fly formation and I assure you you will quickly realise those other 8 sets of eyes are firmly fixed on the neighboring inboard aircraft and nowhere else. If you dont you will have a mid-air collision. Hence- only the leader aircraft looks out.

The other 8 aircraft wouldnt really know if the leader had misjudged a loop and was about to plant everybody into the ground in formation [ and thats what happened to a foreign team once - 7 or 8 neatly spaced holes in the ground].

The leader is effectively flying one quite large aircraft with hopeless manouvrability(sp) and they are going to have great difficulty taking avoiding action if they spot the little speck of an R22 a bit late.

I think it is a very good idea that formations are given very wide berths by all methods possible.

OOW

[Tractor_Driver]

90% of the air above us is radar controlled and anyone with suitable kit and license can fly through it and be steered so that they never come within 5 miles of anyone else.

10% is left for the citizens of the country to enjoy, bimbling about if they so wish, talking to no-one, non-radio even, just employing good old fashioned airmanship and taking responsibility for their own separation from hard stuff and others.

Someone, with good kit and license decides to take a very fast, very large, very unwieldy aircraft through the 10% bit and there are howls of disapproval if the aforementioned citizens do not immediately land or scatter to the other end of the country.

Just who is the muppet here?

[Presstransdown]

I think a little perspective is called for.
A day/nights work in the South of England calls for consideration of the following.
ATZ
Prohibited Areas
Restricted areas
Danger Areas
Temporary Restricted Areas
Microlight flying sites
Gliding Locations
Hang/Para gliding sites
Winch launch sites
Freefall Zones
Matz
Bird Sanctuaries
Gas Venting Sites
Areas of intense aerial activities
Controlled airspace to the surface
Controlled airspace above
Weather Balloon Launching sites
Masts
Large Kite Flying to 1500ft
Tethered Balloons to 5000ft
Add to this day or night:-
1) Weather
2) Lookout at all times for all sizes of aircraft from Autogiros/gliders to off airway Airliners and everything else transiting, climbing, decending high and low speed.
3) Notams, some short notice to be extracted from much superfluous nif naf.
All of this within less than an hours flying time.
Most of us cope with all of the above and do the job.
I say there is no muppetry involved in keeping an eye out for 9 red jets.
They are one of the easier hazards to deal with.
Press

[ShyTorque]

"I say there is no muppetry involved in keeping an eye out for 9 red jets.
They are one of the easier hazards to deal with."

Especially when NOTAM'd. Keeping out of the way is one thing, but deliberately getting close by is another. If an incident or accident were to take place, caused by the proximity of another aircraft, it doesn't take much to realise who the CAA, the press and the general public would hold negligent, despite pleas of "We knew they were coming, but it's the open FIR".

[chevvron]

ATCO 17 - if you think the RA's transit 'up to' 2500ft you're very much mistaken. In my experience (over 20 years of handling them) it's usually less than 1500ft, normally in the 1000 to 1200ft bracket, NEVER as high as 2500!

[ATCO17]

Chevs, you're quite right, they normally transit below 2000' in the UKLFS, however, that obviously depends on the weather at the time, but they always publish SFC to 2500' whilst in transit at low level...

Shy, think you've pretty much summed up the point I was trying to get across!

A17

[Snarlie]

People should be aware that the Red Arrows regard themselves as direct representatives of the Almighty and therefore anyone and everyone should cower before their stately progress between displays. This frame of mind is clearly encouraged by the attitude of ATCO`s like ATCO17.

If they choose to transit below 2500` in Class G airspace then other users have the right to expect that their lookout should be every bit as sharp as everyone else in the vicinity. Operating at 300 kts, whilst not as suicidal as other fast jets at 420 kts, is still above the civil speed limit of 250 kts below 10,000`.

As an aside, Red Leader once filed an infringement during a display at Farnborough against a RAF Puma which was ground taxying. They are not normal mortals!

[ShyTorque]

I would say "Don't knock it till you've tried it", as in the pressures of leading a 9 ship in close formation.

Trouble is, there are some with a touch of the little green monster about them, wanting to appease their own deep feelings of inadequacy by attempting to knock others off a perceived pedestal.

[ATCO17]

Snarlie...I raised this topic in the interest of safety for ALL airspace users. Attitude doesn't come into it.

[smarthawke]

The Red Arrows normally transit in a very loose (for them) formation when in transit so presume will be looking 'out' as 'well' as in.

These days they are getting more and more concerned with anyone flying in the same hemisphere as them. Okay as others have said not good for display infringements but if you want to fly at 'low-level' from A to B on a Saturday afternoon then best you look out. Perhaps they are doing en route fly pasts at car boot sales etc but do they really think we amateurs always talk to a radar equipped ATC unit whenever we are flying?

Years ago they demanded that airfields grounded all their aircraft one Sunday morning as they flew up the A1 from Alconbury to Lincoln in fromation with a BA 747 for a naming ceremony - all at 1500ft. It was pointed out that airfields (with A/G operators) couldn't ground aircraft and asked if they would like to pay the flying schools compensation for loss of earnings....

Another time they turned inside an active airfield ATZ within 0.5nm of a parachute DZ turning for a run over a scout jamboree all without talking to anyone, no NOTAM etc - they certainly begged forgiveness from the damned civvies on that occasion.

[chevvron]

ATCO17: I wasn't referring to the LFS; more the TVAA. They also flew through through the active ATZ of a local airfield once and passed UNDER a guy on his first solo without an RTF call.