Vulcan unlikely at Falklands 25 flypast

[Navaleye]

Dr Pleming dropped the loudest hint that the Vulcan would not be airworthy for the Falklands 25 fly past. Its at least at least 3+ weeks away from its first test flight. They have ordered 37,000 litres of jet fuel. Nice to see the folks at Waddo pitching in with offers of help as well.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Remembering what my old dad said, somewhat reminiscent of getting the 1st Prototype ready for the '52 Farnborough display. I wonder if the ghost of Dobbie's there cracking his whip!

[cornish-stormrider]

When that big beastie gets airborne I'm going out and getting pissed to celebrate, and I will down a few in memory of all our fallen. And the first chance I get, I'm going to take the wife under its wing:E:E:E

However when thay get it in the air it will probably get tasked for an afgan run

[Navaleye]

Sadly not. The bombing gear, H2S radar and in all 5 tons of material have been removed to be replaced by steel ballast. Limited as she is to 350kts at 15,000ft, it would be a long trip.

[Pontius Navigator]

I'm not going to get pissed, I am going to marham to watch Tombstone with the rose between his cheeks.

[BEagle]

He's probably hoping we've forgotten....

Fat chance - and I'm sure that Joanna and the Primetime team will be happy to film the event for posterity... Posterior-ty?

[flipflopman RB199]

Sadly not. The bombing gear, H2S radar and in all 5 tons of material have been removed to be replaced by steel ballast. Limited as she is to 350kts at 15,000ft, it would be a long trip.

Navaleye,

Just to clarify a few points, hopefully without sounding too pedantic, the aircraft actually has a ceiling of 17,500ft, and any ballast needed to maintain the C of G in limits would be the actual deleted items themselves, for example, rudimentery calculations suggest that the aircraft is only around .5" outside of its aft limit, so it's highly likely that the only ballast required would be the H2S scanner, to bring it back into limits. Of course, we have deleted that much, we have an enormous amount of ballast to use if req'd, from the Scanner all the way back to Red Steer, so there will be no need for any steel ballast, which would need design approval, etc, etc.....

Oh, and as an aside. I'm very much looking forward to Tombstone's performance too, and I know that Joanna and Primetime are also very keen not to miss it, and give Tombstone the wider audience he so richly deserves!! :p


Flipflopman

[Tombstone]

You might as well get pissed PN, I know I'm going to have to be!

My initial post on the original Vulcan thread should be moved to the 'Things you wished you'd never said' thread.

However, I am a man of my word.:ok:

[flipflopman RB199]

And that is to your credit :D

May I suggest you visit this site (http://www.davidaustinroses.com/english/Advanced.asp?PageId=2026) and look at their Thornless Rose selection.

Cheers


Flipflopman

[SilsoeSid]

I was talking to one of the gentlemen at Wellsbourne Aviation Museum last weekend, and while 'the boys' were having a look around the cockpit of the B1 there, XA903 (nose only), we chatted about the amount of work left to do in order for the XH558 flying in time, despite there being 60 odd people working on her. It seems rather tight.

To be able to sit in the pilots seat in the B2, XL360, at Coventry and having seen XM655 ground taxi at Wellsbourne there will be nothing to beat seeing a Vulcan take to the air once more .

As a young lad, I clearly remember the displays along Plymouth Hoe, bomb bays open with that impressive deafening roar. To experience that once more, not just for the older generations but more importantly for the younger, would be truely awesome.

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/
http://www.midlandairmuseum.co.uk/aircraft.php
http://www.2av8.co.uk/pages/wellsbourne/wellsbourneg.htm

[Milt]

Vulcan Fly Pasts

Would still like to hear from somone who was aboard the aircaft carrier in Lyme Bay in the late 50s. The carrier was there in a restricted area and at risk without clearance close to where I had just unloaded a full weapon bay of inert 500 pounders from XA892. Flew a long final with the gear down as if to catch a wire.

Over the deck, and tempted to touch the right mains, the steep pull up at max power must have startled the imcumbents and perhaps blasted some loose bits over the side.

[Pontius Navigator]

SiloeSid,

Can you imagine hearing the roar of the Vulcan as it thundered overhead at 200 feet, bomb doors open, as you gazed in amazement at an aircraft you had never seen before?

The citizens of Leningrad would indeed have been impressed.

[Pontius Navigator]

What is the reason for the ceiling limit of 17500 ft?

Is it to do with ATC, upper airspace, and nav aids?

The 350 kts of course was the peacetime upper speed limit below 10000 ft. We did the proving flight flying for one hour at 350 kts. Doesn't sound much but at 10000 ft up the North Sea in a straight line we were at exactly the wrong height for everyone. Doesn't sound far either but if you start at the Norfolk coast . . .

[Brain Potter]

Airframe restrictions aside, the aircraft will be on a permit-to-fly which will mean VFR, VMC only - so FL195 upwards would not be possible. Also as a civilian aircraft it will be subject to the ANO and will have to observe the Class G speed limit of 250kts below 10,000 feet.

[forget]

And the first chance I get, I'm going to take the wife under its wing

By gum - that brings back memories - night shift, Waddington '69, nurses uniform, soft glow of sodium lights, Wolseley 1500. :)

[BEagle]

The '250 below 10' rule can be waived by the Authority. See the ANO:

Speed Limitation
23 (1) Subject to paragraph (3), an aircraft shall not fly below flight level 100 at a speed which according to its air speed indicator is more than 250 knots unless it is flying in accordance with the terms of a written permission of the Authority.

No reason, therefore, why the Vulcan should not fly in excess of 250KIAS in Class G airspace if the CAA provides written permission.

But there would be no need - and, in any case, flying at lower speeds will use less fatigue and less fuel.

[Navaleye]

Flipflop,

I'm sure you are right, but Dr Pleming was asked directly on the subject and he said that we are not going end up with a "lighter, go faster version" and the aircraft is going to be weighed in the next 3 weeks to ensure that it meets its minimum take-off weight and that if CofG and weight distributiom is in accordance with the manufacturers specs.

[flipflopman RB199]

Navaleye,

With regard to what Dr Pleming has stated, he is correct in that the aircraft will not be transformed into an amazing "Super Vulcan" capable of vertical take offs and the like! However, she will indeed be far lighter than any previous incarnation on the Vulcan. Having said this, there is clearly a Min TOW for the aircraft, and therefore, there is only a set amount of weight that can be removed from the aircraft before we start having to put some back in.

Regarding the requirement to bring it back to Min TOW, this appears not to be an issue. In fact, even with the enormous amount of deletions and removals that have taken place, the aircraft is still over its Minimum Take Off Weight by quite a margin, so the addition of ballast to achieve this is not applicable. The C of G is another issue however, and as you can imagine, although there has been a comprehensive list of all items removed, with each item weighed and its moment calculated, this can never be totally accurate until the aircraft is back on its undercarriage and weighed accurately. As I said in my last post however, our current calculations show that the C of G is presently only 0.5" aft of the Aft Limit. This leads us to believe that the addition of the H2S scanner is all the ballast that will be required to be added to the aircraft in order to be safely within all C of G limits and Min Take Off Weight considerations.

Hope that clears up any issues :ok:


Flipflopman

[forget]

Mr Flipflop, I'm sure you know what you're doing but there's something I'm not getting here. Are you saying that with the Red Steer and all of the active ECM removed, Red Shrimp locations, the removal of the NBS scanner still leaves the aircraft tail heavy. Just curious.

[flipflopman RB199]

Forget,

While there is obviously a massive amount of variables to take into account, in XH558's particular case, the answer is yes.

It must be borne in mind that XH558 was already flying without the VCCP and ECM cans fitted to the tail housing, and instead had the 'E' Cylindrical tank fitted, with an 8000lb (I believe) fuel load to counter. Don't forget that in addition to the actual Red Steer scanner unit, all of the associated control boxes have been deleted, including all of the old NBS and MFS equipment from the cockpit and nose undercarriage bay. When you begin to think of the amount of weight in those 'Black Boxes' located behind the Nav table, under the Pilot's floor and in the nosewheel bay, you can begin to understand where some of the weight shift has gone. Add to that the removal of the Air Ventilated Suit kit and you can see that an awful lot of equipment that was located a fair distance forward of the aircraft's datum, has disappeared.

As I said earlier, until we get it on the floor and weigh it properly, we cannot be 100% sure, but even so, half an inch out, isn't that much when you think about what has been removed!! :ok:

Hope this helps answer those niggles :p


Flipflopman

[Pontius Navigator]

Flipflopman, if you mean a DRUM tank in the E position then 8000lbs of fuel, and 1000lb for the tank IIRC, is correct. However if it is actually an E tank then I believe the fuel is about 5600lb.

The Drum is a large, round, white cyclinder. The E and A were specially formed saddle tanks to stradle the Blue Steel Missile, they were usually silver.

[forget]

Thanks for that Flip flop but I’m still a little confused – why a (slightly) tail heavy aircraft resulted from removing what you’ve described. Operational aircraft, as bombers, carried over 3,000 lbs of ECM in the far back end, as below, which would be a huge part of the CG equation. I’m be very surprised if more than that moment has been removed from forward of the ‘factory’ CG. Other than the NBS scanner, anything of any weight was in the nose wheel bay.

Time to start a raffle – ‘Guess the pre-weigh CG’. Can I have first go?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/594_cans.jpg

[flipflopman RB199]

Pontius,

Apologies for not making myself clearer earlier on. Yes, I was of course referring to a drum tank being fitted in the 'E' position, as I referred to a cylindrical tank, rather than a saddle tank.

Forget,

As much as I completely understand that you are fully conversant with the Vulcan, having spent your time on them in the 60's, What you must remember, is that XH558 is unlike any Vulcan in service. I completely agree that if you were to take the scanner from any 'In-Service' Vulcan, it would not cause the aircraft to sit on it's tail, however, as I have tried to explain, XH558 is far from an 'In-Service' example, and has had a myriad of different modifications to any Vulcan you would have worked on. I dare say in fact, that the Vulcans of the 1980's were very different beasts to the ones you had the pleasure of.

By all means, guess the pre weigh C of G......

But I'll go double or quits :E


Flipflopman

[flipflopman RB199]

Mike,

When XH558 was in display fit, it had the rear 'Drum' tank (for you Pontius) fitted, and an 8000lb fuel load to counter the lack of HDU or ECM equipment.

As goes the other equipment, no, the scanner in itself is not that heavy, weighing in at 810lbs, nor indeed is the AVS pack, weighing in at around 300lbs, but as I posted previously, the deletion of the LRU's, the indicators, the Nav's panels, the Calc's, the Heading Reference Gyros, the T4 Bombsight, the AVS, the NBS boxes, the MFS boxes, etc etc, plus, the miles of wiring and relays, have altered the C of G somewhat massively.

As I say, it has not altered it to the degree that XH558 will sit on it's 4rse as soon as the jacks are removed, but for flight and certification, using the broad range of allowance, we have calculated XH558 to be only 0.5 of an inch outside the manufacturers limits.


Flipflopman

[SPIT]

Hi
After all that has been written "WILL IT BE READY FOR FLIYING AT THE WADDO AIR DISPLAY???" :\ :\

[forget]

Something isn’t right here Mr Flip Flop, and please bear in mind that you are amongst friends, people on your side. You say that the C of G is presently only 0.5" aft of the Aft Limit.

The aircraft will be weighed so I suppose it doesn’t matter much but ……………

You’re wrong. ( I’ll eat whatever - if you’re right.)

Mike’s numbers use ‘3 T4367 ECM cans quoted as 219, 219 & 217 lbs’.

I imagine that Mike has some Avro Manual with him but it doesn’t show all equipment. Now look at the picture in my Post 22, and the reality of aircraft which left the factory.

There are, in fact, nine cans. Which could be -

3 X Red Shrimp.
3 X Red Shrimp Power Units.
2 X Blue Diver.
1 X Green Palm.

I can tell you approx what they weighed (trust me on this, I still have the truss.)

3 X Red Shrimp. 800Ibs
3 X Red Shrimp Power Units. 900Ibs
2 X Blue Diver. 300Ibs
1 X Green Palm. 200Ibs

If Mike were to add these to his calcs I think it may explain why my eyebrow raised when you said that C of G is presently only 0.5" aft of the Aft Limit.

You rightly said that the aircraft “is far from an 'In-Service' example, and has had a myriad of different modifications to any Vulcan I may have worked on”.

The wing is the same. The aircraft you have is now nose heavy.

………………… in my opinion. ;)

[flipflopman RB199]

With the greatest of respect, I am not going to get into any heated debates on this issue!! ;)

Notwithstanding the fact that all of the equipment you refer to, the Blue Diver, Green Palm, Red Shrimp kit was all removed when 558 was converted to a tanker, along with the VCCP and associated equip. This was countered by the addition of the 'E' position drum tank, with its 8000lb fuel load. You will note that XH558 was the only Vulcan to carry a full cylinder tank in the rear position. This was due to the C of G shift caused by the removal of the ECM cans etc, and later the HDU. My apologies Mike, I referred to the weight of the Ballast for the scanner, which is 810lbs.

Let's not forget that I am a pretty small cog in all of this, and these are not figures I have simply plucked from my imagination, there are entire departments devoted to this at Marshall Aerospace, who do these calculations, and have responsibility for them! Obviously, I do not currently have the figures for deleted equipment, moments etc to hand so can only pass on the information that comes from the departments that do. However, as much as I respect your knowledge, I would trust MA figures over PPRuNe 'fag packet' figures all day long. Please at least try to understand that there have been a vast amount of changes to the airframe, both front and rear, so you can expect the C of G to be vastly different to a fully loaded, in service aircraft.

And with that, I bid you good evening!! :ok:


Flipflopman

[Milt]

flipflopman

As a former TP on Vulcan and having flown to the limits of Avro's specified cg limits during numerous weapon release clearance flights I cannot recall being concerned with the longitudinal stability or elevator deflections at the aft limit. Perhaps Jimmy Harrison or Tony Blackman were a bit conservative in setting the aft limit but then I am not aware of just where the the corner of the envelope is most critical.

Neverthess you will be bound by the specified limit and may have to ballast.

Don't spoil the enthusiasm which shows in this thread. Anyone who has been closely associated with the magnificent Vulcan will be unable to suppress his need to add to the background and help to give the thread so much interest. I am fascinated by the added gubbinry that was added to the Mk2s which you and yours now have to nut out in cg effects.

Tony Blackman may be able to give us an insight into the trials which set the aft cg limit

[Blacksheep]

...night shift, Waddington '69, nurses uniform... Now, now forget, I know we were somewhat non-standard in our attire in those days but don't you think working the night shift in a nurses uniform was going a bit too far? :}



Then again, we always reckoned you lot on "The Other Shift" were a bit weird. :p

[jollygreenfunmachine]

Wow talk about thread drift! Anyone got any info on when the first display might be?

[forget]

With the greatest of respect,

When I hear that - it's time to wind my wrinkled neck in. :)

Stick with it Flip flop - and best of luck. I'm sure you have a great deal to do; not least, a proper paint job. ;)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/XM-610.jpg

(Blacksheep. Problem was - locking wire knocked seven bells out of the black stockings.)

[cornish-stormrider]

Hey hey, I'm under 45 and I want to see it in shiny white..... Failing that I'd like the cold weather wrap around jobbie that the nice photo from goose was in

[jollygreenfunmachine]

I say again! Anyone have any info on when and where the first display is likely to be?

[Not_a_boffin]

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/engineering.asp

Latest engineering update, power on systems. Would be surprised if they scheduled a display appearance before mid July (RIAT anyone?)

[NURSE]

Looks like the brotherin law will be disapointed at waddington

[BEagle]

I understand that the return to flight of 558 has been delayed by a couple of factors:

1. Additional corrosion

2. Return of electro-hydraulic PFCU motors.

The team is working flat out around the clock to get the bomber flying again as soon as can safely be achieved. They have now finished the extra work needed to sort out the corrosion and are waiting for the PFCU motors to be returned from the OEM.

DC electrics have now been powered, the aircraft is due to come down off its jacks today and hopefully have the fuel tanks part filled. The bomb doors may also be refitted.

The revised flight deck is being fitted; after the aircraft is complete, there will be a need for W&B assessment, 200v checks and engine ground runs. Finally, when the engineers and aircrew are happy, flight tests can begin and the CAA Permit to Fly finally issued.

Whether all this can be achieved in time for the Waddington Air Show, I do not know. The whole team are working as hard as they can to return the aircraft to the skies, but their work must satisfy modern requirements and meet CAA approval. The CAA, incidentally, are very much on side.

It is entirely unreasonable to compare the Waddington Air Show with the Spirit of Adventure farce. Air shows often have to contend with cancellations; it will be a huge disappointment to many if 558 cannot make it, but the reasons are beyond the control of either the Vulcan To The Sky team or the Waddington Air Show organisers.

[the_flying_cop]

as much as i would love to see this girl flying by waddington, i would rather see that it was done properly (i know this is the case). if time does not permit then time does not permit.

i salute the folks that are working so hard on this project, and when they have finished it shall be a majestic thing to behold.

i saw a display over at barton (manchester) many many years ago, and i can honestly say i have not seen anything so big be so versatile, and the noise......well that just speaks for itself.

its nice to see so many people behind this project, and im still chucking at the 2 pages of discussion over the cofg

keep up the good work.

TFC

[Old Ned]

50 and 61 Sqns Association send God Speed to 558 and her crew. As an ex-member of 50 Sqn and living under the Waddington approach to 21, I await the mighty roar again with much pleasure.

I have seen at first hand the work carried out at Bruntingthorpe and you have done an outstanding job.:D:D:D:D

Damn the miserable b*s*a*d* who said she would never fly again! I only wish I was still current and would even return the nurses uniform to be on board for the first flight.

Old Ned

[forget]

Many of the systems are being rebuilt with the Oxygen system actually having oxygen in it, ...........

I did promise to wind my neck in - but curiosity won. Does the aircraft really need an oxygen system. I can't see it spending any time above 10,000.

[Green Flash]

To expand forgets question if I may; do ALL the old warbirds (BBMF etc etc) that were designed to go above 10K have any oxy/air systems fitted?:confused:

Even though you might not ever go above 10K you would probably be quite happy to have something to breath in a fumes in the cockpit scenario?

[flipflopman RB199]

forget,


In answer to your question, No. Strictly speaking, for her display life, 558 wouldn't physically need an oxy system, however, should there be an occasion arise such as fumes in the cockpit etc, then clearly some form of oxy system is required. This could be catered for with a small, portable system, but at the end of the day, this would be classed as a Mod, bringing with it all the associated red tape and expense. 558 will never EVER require the 27,000 litres of oxygen the system holds, but to change the system would be far more costly and time consuming than just making sure it all works as AVRO intended!! :ok:


Flipflopman