Is there any HAPPY Pilots @ CX????

[ZS-LMI]

Going for an inerview next month, but after reading what some of you guys have said, jumping off a very,very high building might be a better idea?

:\

has any one got a good thing to say about CX:ok:

[sizematters]

it's ok if you like green aeroplanes ??

[asianeagle]

Its what you make of it, most of these guys are extreme and it way better than flying ZS- reg airaft for Bongani Matwetwe:cool:

[parabellum]

Do a search here on PPRuNe and you will find a regular 50 or less CX pilots who post, for and against CX about fifty/fifty.
CX employs well over a thousand pilots so suggest you go with the silent majority and your own opinions gleaned from the experience of your interviews. Best of luck.:ok:

[luvmuhud]

ZS-LMI,
I started with the company recently, and in my opinion, PPRUNE is extremely heavily skewed towards the negative.
All of the senior Sim Instructors and Check and Trainers I've spoken to have generally said that although the pay and conditions have deteriorated since they joined (sometimes 20 years ago), they still believe CX is the best choice for new-joiners. It's a secure (relatively - compared with other airlines) job, with good progression (compared to other established widebody airlines) and good Pay and Conditions (especially for Hong Kong crew).

Like most things, you have to look at the balance which Cathay will provide your situation. Obviously, in the current environment, you can experience much faster progression and much higher pay with other emerging carriers on contract work (eg in India), but there are obviously job (and personal!) security payoffs. You can also live under crystal clear skies and have near zero stress flying a float plane out of the Maldives, but then the financial benefits aren't as good. It's all a tradeoff.

Some of the more negative and vocal posters on PPRUNE seem to be of the view that someone forced them to join Cathay. If you move to Hong Kong without being aware there's a pollution issue, you may want to re-evaluate the amount of research you are conducting prior to major life decisions!

Good luck with the upcoming decisions.

lmh

[hostile23]

If you are referring to me then I have to disagree with you. I knew noone at CX before joining, my decision was made on what BS the recruiting panel in particular had to say. All I can say is they present CX in a completely false light. I wasn't forced to come to CX, but I was lied to at the interview. Just beware of the bullsh!t, that's my advice. My time again, no way CX!

[Night Watch]

I'm Happy..... need some more $$$$.... but I'm Happy! Not so much with CX, but living in HKG.

[hog tied]

Happy is relative....CX is a fine job, but not a career. Trust me.

[inciter]

Luvmuhud,
It is quite obvious that The Sim instructors and trainers you ve been talking to suffer from a severe case of "head in the sand syndrome" just like the rest of the CX / KA management.

The only positive contribution CX and KA make in aviation is one all of you not living and working in this shole should be grateful for:

THEY KEEP MOST OF THE DICKHEADS IN THIS INDUSTRY IN ONE PLACE.

Hostile23 good on ya mate!

[ACMS]

yawn


haven't you dummies found a job yet?

thought so


so get on with it and leave us alone.

[Effee]

Those working at a major should be thankful for what they have.

For every unhappy pilot at a major, i am sure there are 10 more that would jump at the opportunity to work at a major.

[hostile23]

And your point is efee? Are you saying that we should be thanking Cathay for the work we do? You obviously don't work for them? Maybe you're better off signing on with www.flyforfood.com (http://www.flyforfood.com)!

Have some self respect. Without the guys at the majors looking after pay and conditions there are no "majors". Get with the program and remember we are professionals that deserve what we are paid. So no, sorry I don't share your "cap in hand" sentiment. People like you are the reason the industry is in such disarray.

[BuzzBox]

It's funny how the constant moaning seems to come from a very vocal minority of pilots. All this nonsense about how 'my life was ruined by those pr!cks at CX' says more about the attitude of those doing the whining than it does about the company.

No, CX is not perfect, but there are over 2,000 pilots here these days and I dare say the vast majority are reasonably happy with their lot. I've been with CX for over 10 years and I've been very happy during my time here.

It's my very humble opinion that life is what you make of it. Make an effort to fit in, accept the fact that there's good and bad in any company and don't expect the world to offer you everything on a silver platter.

[hostile23]

True in theory however the reality of life is much less simple than your 'humble' opinion would suggest.

[hog tied]

I can tell you, pilots at all companies complain, but not like at cx, and there is a reason. Where there is smoke there is usually fire. TRUST ME, I have seen both sides of the fence. Take CX if it is all you have, but if FEDEX, UPS, or SWA come along don't even consider it for a minute!

[inciter]

For those with limited or no experience or if CX/KA is all you can get go for it and at the very least get your free type rating.

For the ones with previous jet/command experience, unless making bunks and being treated like an idiot for the next 10 years is your sort of thing stay away from this circus.

Their antiquated tactics and approach to professional aviation (loosely used term as they have totally confused a--l with standards), may have been condoned 20-40 years ago but today there is no need to put up with this sort of crap. There are more than 200 jobs advertised on flightinternational.com.

Learn from our cock-ups and do not make the same mistake I made, it will be your worst career move ever.

[HotDog]

hostile, which forum can we visit to glean your pearls of wisdom after you finally leave Cathay?:rolleyes:

[parabellum]

Good post. Possibly more than 50% of Hostile123's problem is that his wife is not happy in HKG.
Back in the sixties and seventies taking a job with a foreign based company was a big decision, becoming an expat, in other words. Probably no more than one trip home every six months, no 'phone calls unless an emergency, wife and children always accompanied you regardless and if you turned up at the interview expecting more your application would go no further. The rewards were the expat lifestyle, the money and often a standard of education for the kids that you could not have dreamed of if you had stayed at home.

From my personal experience overseas basings, (home basings really) and wives who refused to join husbands but expected them to 'commute' were the start of the rot, as the company immediately became divided and workmates became strangers, each with a different agenda. No surprise that Emirates, for example, don't forsee overseas basings and SIA are letting it die on the vine.
Possible one instance of going backwards would actually be an advantage, where only people really committed to an overseas job applied in the first place. Just my humble opinion, nearly forty years an expat.;)

[leaving]

i agree with inciter.

i here a lot of guys complaining about cx, but they dont leave. well i had it and thats why im leaving. cx was veeeery different from what i expected.

dont just talk about cx in a negative way, make a descision and leave just like me. its going to be a relieve flying for a normal company again.
and i tell ya, there are nice jobs all over the place.
if you talk negative and stay anyway than sh.t up, whats the point.

this is leaving for the first and last time..out:ooh:

[hostile23]

This reward of an expat lifestyle that you talk about is the reason most people are leaving. It is not a true expat lifestyle. Trust me I grew up as an expat with both parents overseas; and living in Disgruntled Bay is not how I remember expat lifestyles to be. I dare say your 'humble 40 years' :rolleyes:as an expat has all been in Hong Kong. Then sir I am sad to say you do not actually know what an expat lifestyle is.

[BuzzBox]

the reality of life is much less simple than your 'humble' opinion would suggest
So Hostile, what exactly is YOUR reality. You obviously don't like it here. Instead of ranting on about how bad it is at CX, how about you tell us exactly what happened to make you so bitter and twisted? Further the debate instead of slandering everyone who disagrees with your propositions. Let your readers decide whether you were treated fairly or not.

[BusyB]

There are plenty of other places rather than DB to live in. I know some people like it, fair enough. I've visited DB 5 times in 19 years and two those were for AOA meetings.

My family lived happily in the NT and schooled there. You make your own choice where you live.:confused:

[hostile23]

Ah actually we didn't have the huge range of choices you mention. I joined on an allowance of $19700HKD for housing back in a time when you were lucky to get a 2 bed apartment for that. I didn't want to drive for an hour and a half in a car that was costing me more to run per day than it would to feed a third world country, besides that the wage wouldn't allow it. So that pretty much leaves TC or DB. So what's it gonna be stuck in the fish bowl or stuck in the fish bowl. DB was the better of 2 poor options. As it was I had to pay out of my own pocket to get the flat we wanted. So don't try and tell me I couldv'e moved to Sai Kung and lived in a palace. You guys just don't get it do you?:ugh:

[BuzzBox]

I had to pay out of my own pocket to get the flat we wanted

Oh poor diddums. You had to pay something out of your own pocket for accommodation. Did it occur to you that most people in the world pay something out of their own pocket for housing, whether it be rent or a mortgage? Did CX promise they'd pay for ALL your accommodation costs - I doubt it. I realise the choices for accommodation on an SO's salary aren't great, but a little research on your part before you came here could have told you that. Perhaps you're the one that doesn't get it.

[hostile23]

Thanks buzzy for your rather simple and amusing lesson in socio-economics. Yes I know that 'most' people have to pay for accomodation. However 'most' people don't live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Do they? Please stop me if you disagree! What I am saying is that I (we) were led to believe that I would be able to have a very comfortable existance living in DB with the housing allowance. The reality is far from the truth. The spin placed on this company as the "be all and end all" is absolutely misplaced. In my opinion they should be closer to the bottom of the career options list. This is part of the many reasons I have for leaving this circus. If you are happy settling for mediocrity then I feel sorry that you devalue yourself and your profession to such a degree. You can't blame a person for thinking they deserve better.

[parabellum]

Expat living; Europe x 2 locations, Middle East x 3 locations and Far East x 2 locations.

[cpdude]

H23,

Nothing wrong with not liking CX. Maybe you were "wronged" and maybe you're just an un-happy person...it doesn't really matter because either way you're not going to stay any longer.

What is wrong is you and 1-2 others attack those that say they do like it. CX is not the best job on earth but it's also not the worst!

You have obviously allowed bitterness to set in. This could happen anywhere doing anything if you don't learn how to be happy. Being happy doesn't endorse the job as being best or even great just good or OK. It's a state of mind that you will have to learn to adopt if you ever plan to be happy.

Cx has many problems but what you may forget is the opportunity they gave you. As a SO new-hire years ago, you didn't have many options because you didn't have any experience. OK, maybe you were left seat in some turbo-prop or even flying some late-night charter jet making minimum wage or less but CX was your break into the "Majors".

I hope you don't regret your decision but then you're the type that wouldn't admit it if you did.

Good luck and please work on your issues!:ok:

[inciter]

Cpdude
In case you haven't noticed the year is 2007. Cathay pacific does not offer opportunities these days.

In Europe in particular 250 hr pilots start in the right seat of a medium jet and get their commands with about 2500 3000 hrs total. Most of the guys applying for jobs these days have a choice of 2 or 3 to choose from. Don't know what it was like back in the day when you joined but right now there is no need for any of the above to join cx by choice and have to kiss ass for the next 10 years.

As far as experience is concerned, I 'd much rather be sitting next to someone that's been doing 2 or 3 sectors short haul a day for the last 5 years, than someone that's been sitting on his ass clicking the mic every sixty minutes and 8 hrs later log this as P1 time. Flying experience is what you did prior to long haul, Radar vector departures + reading the paper + radar vector ILS does not = any experience worth bragging about.

[cpdude]

inciter,

In case you hadn't noticed...he didn't join yesterday!:}

Oh, and a medium jet doesn't make a stable or even good job.:)

[cpdude]

Ya Jizz I'll give you that. You do have "act stupid" protection at most airlines where CX you don't.:}

[inciter]

Cpdude
On Day release from the truman show I see!

If you enjoy the job medium jet does make for a good and stable job these days. There are plenty of outfits out there offering both. There are also corporate jobs out there offering stable rosters and up to 20000USD a month.

"act stupid protection" yeah right, more like brown-nosing guarantee.

Since you don't appear to be let out very often here is what most aviators outside HK have known for while:

As far as standards and job security are concerned CX is no different than anyone else,
It is a fun job and not a pissing contest,
Unfortunately aviation does not promote on ability or merit so the only difference between you and the person next to you is length of service.


Sir Donald,

I ve been in HK a couple of years now and although the Brits have the reputation, it saddens me to say it is not them that moan the most nor are they the biggest pains in the arse to fly with.

[Numero Crunchero]

To answer your question YES, of course!

Remember in this world there are people who would go to heaven and complain about the harps and other people who would whistle in hell. Fortunately 99% of the people I fly with are whistlers!

This job (and life) is what you make of it. I really don't think it is anywhere near as bad as people make out. If you are professional, do you job, get on with it, you will do fine. You don't have to suck up, pretend to love it more than life itself or anything like that.

A whole lot of virgin blue pilots just did interviews with emirates recently....whats interesting about that? Well, a whole lot of emirates pilots are on the books to join virgin blue, but they are not recruiting at the moment.

The grass is always greener somewhere esle...its human nature.

How many people actually leave CX? Do we have 10% per annum? No...I actually don't know the exact figures but anecdotally I think it is around 1-2%(ignoring retirements) at most. Hardly a shocking figure indicative of a terrible job.

So, how bad is the job, the pollution, the pay etc if only 1 or 2% are leaving? And before the naysayers jump in, no I am not a management lackey, just a pragmatist!

ZS-LMI do the interviews, if you get offered the job, take it. Contrary to what hostile 23 says, it will not be the end of your life if it is a mistake. Unlike his life, you will probably live to 100...if it takes you a year or 2 to decide it was a mistake that still leaves you say 75 years of bliss(if you are say 23)...which will be more blissful for having tried cx and finding out it wasn't for you. Sometimes you have to try and fail to find out it wasn't for you....statistically it is likely you will find the job fine!

[Five Green]

Numero and Buzz:

You maths/sums are usually so much more acurate .

If (and I state categorically that this is based on rumour only) the rumours are true and 60 odd have left since January, then the current year's resignation rate would be closer to 3%, with 7 months to go !! Granted historically you are correct at 1-2%

So what percentage of resignations is considered an indication of good work place or bad ? Well I think that you have to take into account the opportunities and backgrounds of the pilot pool. In our case we hire from countries where the home grown aviation is poor i.e. Aus S.Africa and Canada (sorrry gents). That means that less of the work force will leave immediately when things get difficult. If we look at the European and American segment of the pilot pool then the percentage is very high indeed. In fact so high that it is IMHO an indicator of unhappy work force. It should also be an indicator that drinks and dinner in the ANC bar are not enough, and Swire need to start holding upper management accountable. This all coming on the eve of further rapid expansion. A time that should offer pilots great leaps in career expectations and yet people are leaving. Makes you wonder........

Buzz Box: I think you need to read how your answers play out in the thread. It certainly seemed to me that you were insinuating that the 49ers acted stupid.

[BuzzBox]

Hostile: Friend, you must have had one extremely unhappy childhood.

5G: Actually, I did not say that EVERY 49er 'acted stupid', as implied by Jizzmonkey. I do, however, know that SOME of the 49ers 'acted stupid' at a time when tempers were hot on both sides. I don't agree with the company's actions in terminating their contracts, but what did these guys expect?

[Numero Crunchero]

Five Green
As I said, I have no empirical evidence...but I most definitely do not take into account what I read on this site;-)

I know many of our NA brethren are talking about leaving but we will see how many actually leave.

You are correct in your appraisal...it is the europeans and north americans who are the indicators or our industrial happiness. I have spoken to many NA guys recently since I have joined the seniorS fleet and i get the feeling that the attraction of CX is that it is a stable career airline...a little different from the experiences for those from northwest etc.

I don't think 1-2% leaving a year is a problem(20-40). There are wife/ex wife issues, health issues, education issues, etc etc. If we have had upwards of 60 so far then that is 3% already...so maybe 7-8% for the year at that rate! Maybe we will see some serious progress in pay talks!

Hostile, you do your argument no benefit by insulting and slandering. You have a legitimate case...argue it...don't take it personally...don't make it personal.

[BusBusBus]

Hey ZS-LMI,

Sorry that your thread got ruined by a few who just seems to hate CX like no others and they can't seem to understand why some of us do enjoy working in CX.

I just want to let you know that I am happy at CX. There's the occassion where the management decision could have been better but overall it is a good experience and good money. Most of the people that I've met in the company take aviaition seriously and seems to enjoy their lifestyle at CX. (If you want a good roaster, just don't be a check and trainer, I saw some of their roaster and it can get quite busy). Ultimately, it depends on how you make of it with regard to your CX experience. Good luck in your interview.

bus

[JaJaBinx]

Hi ZS-LMI, as above, sorry your thread has been hijacked by the squabbling kids..!
I am leaving CX cos I am fed up of boring boring 744 longhaul and I see my future life away from HK back at my home base. If I wanted to stay in HK on a 777 roster (work hard but have job satisfaction) I would stay and actually enjoy CX.
Go for the interview, decide if you want to stay in HK (great place if its for you) and try and get a 777 posting. (we've got 14 or so coming so there should be a place for you).

PM if you want any further info.

Don't worry about the lil'babies squabbling, they didn't get fed this morning..:rolleyes:

JJB

[bell1st]

ZS-LMI
Good luck at the interview. I'm a NA based freight FO and am really enjoying Cathay. Not perfect, but WAY better than my last outfit. NA based freight guys are generally a great group of people to fly with, friendly and always willing to help out. I've had good experiences (so far) with check and training. Can't speak for other operations or bases, but I like where I am. Give it a shot and make your own decision.
Bell

[Airbus_Driver]

This is a bit off track but I was curious why Cathay initial training is so long compared to North American airline training? Am I to understand that it is upwards of 6 months from Indoc to completion of IOE? Doesn't that cost Cathay an incredible amount of money? How do they stay competitive with training costs so high? Does Cathay want you to know how to build the airplane?

Just a bit curious.

[cpdude]

Yes, but they want to make sure by checking you 30-40 times!:bored:

[NOR116,20]

6 months training before released – pure waste of money, that’s it! They should rather spend it for profit sharing.
This everlasting inferior complex of “second choice airlines”! Under all means they want to demonstrate that they are even smarter than major airlines, and that it was them who invented flying.

This is how it looks from the outside.
Good luck to those who leave this circus!

[gmezzi]

Hi everybody,
as in every company most people are happy to work for, other less, other again doesn't like anything........this is true life.
in the next weeks i'll probably invited for the F/O interview in EU?
Actually i'm on a md80 aircraft since 1999 and i have to wait about five years more for a left seat opportunity.total 12 yrs in the right seat:{
This the reason to try join CX.
Any suggestion for me?
Is a good opportunity?
Thanks
Giulio

[Dashtrash]

I think hostile and mr buzzy should have their own talk show. Great show fellas.

If your unhappy, leave. If there are so many opportunities out there, no-one here should have any problem finding a new gig. It's not more complex. It's very simple. If you've got a rock in your shoe, how many people on the street would you tell about it? Just take it out.

As far as the CX situation, take the job. Never turn down down a combat assignment. If it doesn't work for you then move on. If it works, stay. Mr hostile promises you'll get a better job. Really truly!! Can we all have that in writing! How many times have I flown with the "I could have flown for XYZ" people. Sad sad individuals. The few people that do actually have the balls to leave. Good on you and good luck in your pursuits.
How do you spot a CX aircraft in a dark ramp area? You can hear the whinning after the engines have stopped. (oldy but goodie)

Get on with your OWN lives. Do productive things like.....oh i don't know....make 80+ posts on PPrune since joining in April2007.

I can almost see the resident vultures circling my post.

[bailee atr]

Nice post Dashtrash :D

[Glass Half Empty]

"Actually i'm on a md80 aircraft since 1999 and i have to wait about five years more for a left seat opportunity.total 12 yrs in the right seat"

about the same time you will spend in cx in the right hand seat - stay put unless you like being pecked to death or your pay is really crappy compared to the current cx offer

[BarBQ]

I've read both positive and negative things about CX.

Gentlemen, the question I have about all the negativity is why are there no efforts being taken to address this training/checks and hostile atmosphere at Cathay? Regardless of any past or present friction between management and the pilot group what can and should be done before this issue becomes cancerous for Cathay? I am concerned because as pilots at CX you fly one of the best aircrafts in world and face it none of you got furloughed during the SARS outbreak or 911 attacks.

Can and should the training atmosphere and line checks improve at CX? Certainly! Are there efforts to truly promote CRM in the cockpit. It doesn't impress me that a captain can know how many rivets there are on a 747 but sets a tone in the cockpit that has me wanting the trip to end asap.

Management cannot continue to ignore the state of dissatisfaction among the pilot ranks even if it is a minority. Negativity unfortunately spreads faster than positivity. It doesn' take much to get more people dissatisfied with a company if that's where the focus of discusion is like on this post and in the bars.

I must agree that if one no longer enjoys working at CX then efforts should be made to move on or else try to at least enjoy the fact that one gets to fly the nicest aircraft in the world and travel and get paid doing it.

This post acts as a filter for the hiring gurus at CX. It scares so many prospective applicants that usually only those really interested to work at CX or are still curious about working here go ahead with the interview process. Let me encourage all the CX wannabes to never let what you read here determin your desire and passion to be a professional aviator at Cathay. Most of what really determines your quality of life and your outlook in life has to come from you and your peace with God. Give CX a try if you get offered the job. If you got the job be thankful and bear with the unpleasantries as much as you enjoy putting on that uniform and flying that sleek aircraft.

Management please address this issue. Pilots make it a place YOU are proud to be a part of.

[cpdude]

Not trying to be negative but...

CX...good not great paying job and possibly good amount of time off depending on fleet but remember…CX as a company does NOT care one bit about your needs! If you have needs now or in the future, be prepared for little if any sympathy. They really don't care that your mother died or you have to appear in court for a divorce trial.

THIS IS AN EXPAT JOB NOT A HOME AIRLINE JOB.

If you can get over this, then you will do just fine!;)

[Traffic]

CP..
I was told early on that sympathy is between sh!t and syphilis in the dictionary, if that helps those who may be looking for it.:E

[cpdude]

I was told early on that sympathy is between sh!t and syphilis in the dictionary, if that helps those who may be looking for it.

That may be so and it may also be the "Asian" way of dealing with people but I can assure you that taking care of your people pays dividends in return!

Save a buck today and spend thousands tomorrow is not a wise business plan!

This attitude is the NUMBER 1 reason people leave CX and people don’t join CX.

Management take note.

[Max Reheat]

CPDude,

I feel you've opened a right can of worms this time.

I would guess the the one thing CX excells at is addressing the acute needs of the Flt Ops personnel. Let me give you a few examples...

A couple of years ago I was at LHR signing on for CX250 and my wife called to say our son had suddenly been taken very sick and was in hospital on a drip. I immediately called the duty manager to ask him to get me a flight back to Europe asap on my arrival in HKG (remember... only 90 mins to departure). He sent me home there and then. Need addressed!

Unfortunately I am (like many) in the middle of divorce... Needed a day off at short notice to go and talk to the nice judge. Day off granted by Chief Pilot. Need addressed!

In neither case did the company ask for the day back, in both cases it was followed by a call to see if all was OK.

So Mr Dude, don't get carried away with the malcontents. If you are unhappy, it will require a personal fix. Until you can organise that, keep up the good work!!!!

[cpdude]

Interesting...maybe it has something to do with which continent you're from!:hmm:

North Americans seem to lose days of leave for the examples you have given.:}

[hostile23]

Sorry max can't share your same happy clappy outcomes. I have been in very similar circumstances to you and on both occasions I got in the sh!t. So I think you are either the son of a 3rd floor ass wipe or you are number 2 or 3 on the seniority list. You get nothin for nothin at CX mate.

Oh yeah, sorry nearly forgot my little condescending closing remark.
"Keep up the good work":D

[Traffic]

CP

I actually agree with you 100%.

The tragedy is that most individuals would also agree but once discretion is penalised, the system destroys the very basic framework that makes it work.

[Freehills]

Similar situation in that your wife wants to divorce you Hostile23? Not surprising given the bile you seem to have

Meh, sorry for the cheap shot, but your reply to Max Reheat, dismissing his anecdotes as "son of an asswipe" or senior, well, just goes to show

You get what you give, and you catch more flies with honey than vinegar everywhere. I am willing to bet Max Reheat is always polite and remembers to thank people - you know, like your mother taught you. People like to do favours for people like that. Note he didn't demand the days off, or take them without notice by going absent or sick, he asked and got more than was requested.

No doubt you will see this behaviour as "brown nosing". It isn't, it is just treating others as you want to be treated (reasonably, with courtesy, and with flexibility)

[Numero Crunchero]

CX can be quite dichotomous in its dealings with employees. As a corporate culture, it is business like and uncaring. But on a personal level it is generally very good. Like Max Reheat I have had good experiences in the past.

But then how do your reconcile this with an organisation that fires 2 FOs for being in the grey area of housing policy?

[asianeagle]

they were warned werent they??? :confused:

[cpdude]

they were warned werent they???

Warned how? With a personal letter or just a vague notice to crew or was it a groupwise memo? Could it have been missed or misunderstood? I really don't know how the warning was communicated...do you?:ooh:

Max Reheat,

I am glad that it worked out for you but I know for a fact that is not policy and it doesn't happen often on my side of the pond. Yes, the please and thankyou's have always been used but leave has always been robbed as well.

H23...grow up!

[Numero Crunchero]

Traffic,
forgot to say, your sympathy thing(between sh#t and syphilis)...brilliant;-) Hope I can quote you without paying copyright fees!

asianeagle...no!
It's a long story...simple version. A NTC came out. They sought clarification of their situation. They were squeaky clean at the time. Over the next few months 2 things happened...their situation changed which caused them to drift into a grey area(unintentionally)....and the CX position drifted to also include more of this grey area into the 'verboten' zone. Did they deserve to be fired? In my opinion, absolutely NOT. I am pretty cut and dried about things...if I had been in charge of their D+G, I would have made them pay back some money. Thats all.

I think CX wanted to make an example...as they did with the 49ers.

Like I said, CX can be incredibly uncaring and harsh as a corporation, but incredibly caring on an individual level. That is why you get such extreme and opposite posts on this website about them!

[404 Titan]

cpdude
Warned how? With a personal letter or just a vague notice to crew or was it a groupwise memo? Could it have been missed or misunderstood? I really don't know how the warning was communicated...do you?
If I recall correctly it was via a notice to crew. Pretty much as Crunchero has said.

If you need to take compassionate leave because of a death in the family or you are under huge stress because of a divorce etc then you aren’t fit for work. This was told to me by someone in flight ops. Go see your doctor and get a certificate to say you are sick and unfit for work.

[cpdude]

I agree with you Titan and that is the policy I operate under these days. But, you shouldn't have to go that way and the company should be more considerate to the needs of the individual. This is how you create a harmonious environment at very little if any cost!:)

CX just hasn't figured this out yet but maybe soon they will. There is always hope!;)

[BuzzBox]

CX just hasn't figured this out yet but maybe soon they will. There is always hope!

Not until a certain General Manager hangs up his Mont Blanc.

[asianeagle]

My "were they warned" question was a genuine question not a wind up by the way. Having said that, it seems that you need to identify the right person to talk to with these problems, PC in the 747 office comes to mind:ok:, and things more often than not work in your favour.
Deal with the wrong person and :ugh:!! TP :8in Airbus office comes to mind!

Dont even think about trying to deal with people in crew control, "CANNOT" comes to mind.

Hey Hostile, with amount of cr@p you keep posting, you must surely be a wind up. If not, go home so the juniors all move a step closer to command!

[Numero Crunchero]

The original intent of this thread was to discuss whether anyone was happy with CX. As usual we have been taken off task. I think it is fair to say that a good measure of satisfaction is the resignation rate? YOu may disagree with that assertion! Anyway, I believe about 40 or so pilots have left in the last 2 years....I mean 2005/06. (Obviously I am ignoring normal retirees!) So about 1+% per year! I have no numbers for departures this year but anecdotally I have heard it is higher than normal!

Generally, most departures are due to Cat D, ill health, wife - job, children's health etc etc issues. It is hard to pin down consistent causes.

If you ask me about CX, obviously I will tell you to come and work here. I am happy here and I have chosen to stay here. If you were to ask Hostile 23 he would tell you not to work here for his own reasons. What I find annoying is that, being a very left brained person, I can have my mind made up and still change my mind, if new evidence convinces me otherwise. Slander, vitriol, abuse in no way makes me reconsider my view, yet posters on PPRUNE seem to think they will make a break through using these techniques. There is no surer technique for closing a door than to yell abuse through it!

Personally I would like the views of the hostile 23's etc on PPRUNE to balance my optimistic view of life at CX...but I also really wish it didn't involve the vitriol, personal abuse etc. I accept that it must be hard for H23 to NOT be angry given the choice to leave takes incredible courage and goes against incredible peer pressure. So H23..contrary to your assertion about my being 'slighly condescending' a while ago, I wasn't! A valid position will bear any scrutiny...an invalid position will bear none.

H23, this is one of those situations where we are both right and wrong...I am not wrong in wanting to stay and you are not wrong in wanting to leave.

In complete non condescendingleyness;-) let potential new joiners know your reasons against joining CX without all the other stuff...not helpful. Accept the fact that some people can't take you saying that 'you should leave' as they are insecure. I will continue to tell people why I like it here, you continue to tell people why you are leaving.

Good luck in your future,
cheers

[junior_man]

I am quite happy here and most of the North Americans I know are also happy here.
Some of it depends on you, if you want to live at home, don't take a job overseas. If you want everything to be the same, don't come here. Some things are different.
I live in HK for about $1100. USD a month for a nice apt. I don't want to be in DB and there are many many other places to live. It actually costs me less to live in HK than in the US. I don't have a car here and until I rented one in the US recently wasn't aware that gas prices were ridiculous again.
I don't think being a 727 flight engineer in the US was any more exciting than being an SO, but most pilots had to do it at one time.
There are some people who are not happy here. Perhaps they will divert some of their energy spent pissing and moaning online to something constructive, like finding a different job where they can be happy (if that is possible). Other wise I find myself with the same feelings as ACMS and others, don't let the door hit you in the a** on your way out.
CX is not perfect, but neither are other airlines. If you want perfection, get out of aviation.
To answer the training question, it takes a long time for initial training as they expect you to do 25 secotrs or so of line training. That takes a bit more time than on a 737. You also get plenty of time off. Otherwise training is about the same amount of time as other air carriers for intial hires.
Never turn down an interview, go and see for yourself.

[CruisingSpeed]

Numero, I can tell you what made ME not very happy, and that was being openly threatened by a Chief Pilot (who I had never met before) that he is in a position to ruin my flying career, not only at Cathay, but for life. Hardly anyone with any pride in their profession, self respect or belief in their abilities will accept such abuse. Very same person frequently seen downtown at dinner time, with a select bunch of “careerminded” pilots clinging to his heel.

The whole experience was just not right and contrary to all the values I believed in. Why I wasn’t a happy Cathay pilot? Stupid question really, I blame it on taking part in an anti bullying programme in my college days… designed to enable us taking a place in this world as responsible grown ups.

Very happy again now, having returned to a normal airline job and sanity. To all those judgemental die hards out there I can only say that I never had a problem before, or after CX. Out of the 100 or so pilots I know on a personal level, the vast majority are NOT happy with their lot, feel mistreated and would rather be out, but find it hard giving up the dollars, social status, seniority or converting a licence/type… they end up having to endure in an unpleasant climate and remain in longterm limbo with a faint hope it will get better one day. But then, I am just a notoric malcontent who associated with my likes…

[hostile23]

That particular chief pilot wasn't the "rambling" IR by any chance was it?

[600rvr]

CX is what you make of it, but it is a great place to work. Everybody is very professional and you get a ton of time off and great aircraft. Work hard, it is worth it.

[parabellum]

Just for balance, what put you in in a position that you should be so threatened by a CP who you had never met before, was it in the bar or in his office?

[jamesgarner]

There are many happy pilots at Cathay. They are happy doing the job they do ; but it has to be said that they often do not have any affection for the company they work for.

[badairsucker]

James,


A very true picture you have posted my friend.

I enjoy the flying, the days off, the holidays, the money and even Hong Kong but I don't enjoy CX.

[CruisingSpeed]

Parabellum,

I don’t intend to internalise a corporate problem by entering a senseless discussion on location or reasons. What happened back then is uncalled for in most any circumstances.

I have meantime moved on in life, but when the Numero is truly oblivious to why there are quite a few people not happy at CX, he is entitled to another perspective.

[hostile23]

You are either an apprentice knight of the star table or a member of the communist party,............... hang on, they're the same really..............
You have got to be kidding right? "Work hard, it's worth it". You are obviously swire trained in the communications department as well! That would have to be the most stupid thing I have ever heard anyone say on this forum. Just please tell me exactly "what" is worth working so hard for at CX?:confused:

[Numero Crunchero]

Cruising speed,
thats me, oblivious! Don't forget to mention that I am probably egocentric, and lets face it, sociopathic too!

You on the other hand are simply egotistical!

[newbie1972]

"ski lodge in whistler, two race horses, a yacht, plane, houses in hkg and oz and he still bitched and whinged."

This guy would have to be an A scaler, won Mark 6 or inherited a bunch of coin. Or else he is up to his eyeballs (and beyond) in debt.

Simply put, there is NO WAY any new staff would ever be able to afford anything close to all of this. Reality bites.

[geldap]

There are certain types of people who will be happy at CX, and there are types who will not be. You have to decide what type of person you are and where you fit. Take a long close look at yourself and ask yourself these questions.

If I were lied to at a job interview would I be happy to accept less than what I thought I was getting? Two trains of thought - hell no - I was lied to, I want what I was promised. Or - well I know its not what I thought it was but it still aint bad here.

If I saw wrongdoing or ill treatment of a follow professional, would I be willing to say something or keep my head down and be thankfull it is not me?

If I knew the company lied to me, could prove it boyond doubt but they would not listen, including the HR personell, would I be able to just turn the other cheek.

If I knew the company went out of their way to not pay me the benefits I had worked for and was contracted to, could I ignore this?

If I worked in an environment of threat, in a country which has no worthy recourse to the law, how would I feel?

If you can honestly say you are such a hard nut type that these things would not affect you and you can live like this and be happy and at peace with yourself then go and join CX. If you have any sort of conscience, where you like to see yourself and fellow workers treated with dignity and respect, then there will be a hundred other jobs for you out there that will be far more suitable than CX.
They are a very nasty set of people, interested in cash and cash alone. They are effectively 25% owned by the human rights loving chinese government through thier commercial arm CATIA. The civil aviation department (incidentally also a chinese government office) are pro Cathay no matter what they do or how they do it. Someone in CX raises their head above the parapit (maybe to defend a colloeague from wrongdoing etc) and thats it - you are out.

There is no H&S laws to speak of. This company does what it likes when it likes with no consequence as it has the backing of the goverment itself to operate like this. If you have another option (any option) take it, otherwise get something from them for nothing and leave. They have done it to many people so turn the tables.

A very happy to be ex employee. Life is good since I no longer work for the green scum LOL

[Mink]

"...the vast majority are NOT happy with their lot, feel mistreated and would rather be out, but find it hard giving up the dollars, social status, seniority … they end up having to endure in an unpleasant climate and remain in longterm limbo with a faint hope it will get better one day."

Sounds a lot like the situation at many US airlines these days.

[hostile23]

Well said my friend, absolutely spot on. May the pro Cathay types suffer in their jocks!!

[Yeager]

Geldap - Nice and spot on mate. :p

O.I.C. :D

Hey come here and fly the f..... best aeroplane for the f...... best airline in the world.. with the f...... best captains put on the planet (not to mention the f...... best cheeck/"trainers" in the industry) Gnsk gnsk :D and those are more or less the words coming from a so called senior check and "trainer" (on extension of course - because CX for sure would not let such an admirable character go!). Pathetic.

Anyways. Why do I stay. Because of Hong Kong, friends and the life outside CX - in fact its that simpel. Roster is just out - its great.
Why will I leave - because I can.

Just dont to come here in search of a great aviation job - because its not. There are way - and I mean way - better jobs for flying, even big shiny jets.

[willnotcomply]

All very well put. But that was then and this is now. As you correctly state, the rewards were worthwhile once upon a time. I guess the premium has disappeared. That is largely the problem. HK is still HK. Polluted, overcrowded and expensive. Granted, phone calls are now cheaper and I can buy Vegemite at Wellcome, but it ain't home! Show me the money. Even better, how about a little respect from our so called managers. Our FOP management are a terrific example of the abused becoming the abuser.

[goodstick32]

Lots of good info on here. It is good to hear the bad and the good when it comes to making such a critical life decision for people either looking to go to CX or decide whether to stay.

I fly for a US regional airline and am considering leaving for CX. I am relatively happy and making more money then I need but am now trying to decide whether this airline is the right choice for my carreer.

The question I have is that most of the "unhappy" pilots are living or based in HK. How about the pilots flying out of the US bases i.e. ATL, SFO, LAX, ORD? If you guys are so unhapy why not transfer back to the US? Does it take a long time to get back to the mainland?

[Dan Winterland]

I think they are transferring back to the US. But not with CX!!!!

[SIC]

Goodstick - many guys on bases have a good time of it and good rosters ( however boring since mostly all they do is fly between base and HK ) But keep in mind the loss in benefits and the much higher taxes you pay on a base. Right now with constantly decreasing pay (due to inflation and HK$/US$ xchange rate issues) and conditions the only option that still looks viable (financially) in the long term is Hong Kong based. Of course the company would love us all on bases - much cheaper for them....

[goodstick32]

Still trying to decide whether this os for me. The application and training process is quite time consuming but may be worth it if I can learn a little more about the airline. If this is posted somewhere I apologize but I couldn't find it.

Has CX stated how many pilots they will need for for the foreseable futute?
If hired for a US base what is the current time to upgrade?
Is the airline as strict about certain things as I've heard i.e. (reading at cruise)?
How senior is SFO and how long would it take to get there? (after the 3 yr cargo obligation?
What are typical trips like out of say SFO again?

Thanks again

[boxjockey]

Goodstick,

As for the number of pilots to hire, that number varies greatly depending on who you ask. It seems they are hiring around a net of 250 year right now, but I suspect that they want more than that. Upgrade time is also very subjective. We have people going for freighter command after two years with the company, but most had significant experience before joining Cathay. That said, I think pax command time is around 9 years right now. There are tons of open pax FO spots in the US right now, I believe including SFO, but it is likely that the company will begin hiring DEFO on the pax fleet in the US soon. This could do away with many of these spots, if they can find the crews to join. Schedule out of SFO would be just as stated by someone else above. SFO-HKG return around three times per month. Hope this helps you out.

box

PS- Always remember that no matter where you work, some people will always wake up on the wrong side of the bed!!!