RFI: Phantom crash, 1435 Flt late 1980s [Archive]

spimbolligan

17th May 2007, 08:42

Dear All,

I'd appreciate some detail from the accident report relating to the above a/c. Please can anyone help?

The a/c crashed in the sea off the Falklands sometime in the late 1980s. I do not have the serial number, but I believe that she was called "Charity". Unfortunately both crew perished in the incident.

All help greatly appreciated,

Spim

London Mil

17th May 2007, 08:56

I think it was in 1989 (may be 1990) and most of the following is vague recollection. The navigator was a chap called CJ Weightman, I don't recall the pilot's name. I think the BOI summised that they became disorientated in cloud some time after tanking. The crash site was thought to be somewhere 50nm North of the Islands. Looking back on those times, the Falklands F4 force was very much a place for 'warriors' with fairly relaxed adherance to rules. I'm not saying that these guys broke the rules, I'm just saying that the environment and ethos was far different from today.I'm sure someone else will drop in with more detail.

Sorry I can't help much more. CJ was a gent and someone I shared many beers with.

Gainesy

17th May 2007, 09:16

Ditto on that, Hell of a bloke.

henry crun

17th May 2007, 10:15

Broken Wings entry just says...

30.10.91/ Phantom/ FGR2/ XV421/ 1453 Flt./ 50 mls N of Stanley/ Dived into sea out of cloud during combat practice/ (2)

frodo_monkey

17th May 2007, 10:25

I believe the pilot was nicknamed 'Mongo', and was a Fg Off named Ian (can't remember the surname). As an aside, if you are ever lucky enough to be invited into the Goose at MPA, you'll notice the wall opposite the entrance has a mural that is half-finished - Mongo was apparently working on this at the time of his accident, and it has been left half-completed out of respect - it was going to read 'Death Before Socially Acceptable Behaviour'...

Can't quite recall the details of the accident, though I have read the report, but concur with the 'disorientation in cloud' already mentioned.

RIP dudes :(

Rev I. Tin

17th May 2007, 10:27

The Pilot's nickname was Mongo. One of mu most enduring memories of Mongo was watching him getting horse whipped on the rump in a 19(F) Sqn liaison beer call in 'The Bird Room' in Wildenrath tower.
Bless him, he really got a good whipping and his Mrs had some questions for him about the marks on his rump.

I have a copy of the last publication of the RAF Wildenrath Station Magazine in which tributes to Mongo and Ceej were published. I will see if that can provide some more details.

frodo_monkey

17th May 2007, 10:34

Found the online copy of the Accident Report:

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/E86CAA8D-E0D1-4563-AFF0-D80E8D5C40F0/0/maas91_09_phantom_xv421_30oct91.pdf

Frodo

spimbolligan

17th May 2007, 11:41

Gents,

Thanks for all the information - really helpful.

I think that "Mongo" may have been Flt Lt Ian Halden. Anyone got any other stories about him?

RIP CJ and Mongo.

Cheers,

Spim

Gainesy

17th May 2007, 11:46

Why do you want to know?

spimbolligan

17th May 2007, 11:52

Just by way of afterthought....

It is interesting that the MOD cited the probable cause of the accident as "loss of control due to incorrect aircraft handling", even though they never recovered enough of the debris to reach a definite conclusion.

Bearing in mind the Chinook in Scotland and the shocking way in which that case was handled, it seems that the MOD would rather villify its own brave and highly trained people, than accept that a piece of equipment is fallible

Rev I. Tin

17th May 2007, 11:54

Dated December 1991 - Front Cover photo of 'B' XT899 in the all over blue scheme (with, I am assuming 'Z' of 92 Sqn, peeling away) with the picture listed inside as:
Flying Officer Ian Halden in action. Made by Flight Lieutenant CJ Weightman
Included in the 19(F) Sqn news is the following:

Flight Lieutenant C J Weightman and Flying Officer I M Halden

On Thursday 14 November 1991 at St Thomas C of E Church, RAF Wildenrath, a Service of Thanksgiving was held for the lives of Flight Lieutenant Chris Weightman and Flying Officer Ian Halden, known to their friends as "CJ" and "Mongo" respectively.
Mongo and CJ, pilot and navigator from 19(F) Squadron were lost in an accident whilst flying a routine training mission over the South Atlantic, serving on a Squadron roulement to 1435 Flight in the Falkland Islands.
Ian Halden and C J Weightman were without doubt two of 19(F) Squadron's finest characters with a zest for life that was paralleled both professionally and socially. They were accomplished sportsmen and excellent company, whatever the occassion.
The sense of loss felt by the Squadron is equally shared by groundcrew and aircrew alike; an indication of their standing. Furthermore, it is a tribute to the impact that "the Ceej" and "Mongo" made on people they met that representatives of the United States and Belgian Air Forces were present at the Thanksgiving.
CJ, a batchelor, and Mongo, married to L*****, did more than touch other people's lives; they made a deep impression on all who met them and were loved by those who had learned to know them.
They will be sadly missed.

The article is then followed with individual career citations of them both. I will happily type them out on this thread if people so desire.

spimbolligan

17th May 2007, 11:54

Gainsey,

Mongo's brother is a good friend. I thought he might appreciate a few fond annecdotes about his brother...

Spim

Jimmy Macintosh

17th May 2007, 13:32

This is bizarre, just reading out of interest and all of a sudden realised, I was on a CCF camp at RAF Wildenrath in the late 80's and have a signed squadron print with both of these guys signatures on it. I remember because Mongo signed it twice.

Sorry to hear of the future of those guys RIP.

wiggy

17th May 2007, 17:37

The CFIT accident was in the Autumn of 83 - I remember it well 'cos I went through training with both of the guys involved and 24 hours later I ended up rapidly heading "down South" as a direct result of the accident :sad: .
Flt Lts John Gostick ( aka Spog) and Geoff Bell, much missed. RIP chaps.

OKOC

17th May 2007, 18:36

Following the CFIT at Mt Osborne (I was at Kellys at the time on wokkas) didn't the Scottish Group Captain (as was) and IMHO over-promoted at that rank, christ knows how he got to where is now, tos*er, made his best ever gaff at the front door of Mrs *****back in Uk...........with his best ever insensitive remark.........What a t*at--he still makes me f*cking angry.

advocatusDIABOLI

17th May 2007, 19:03

Mongo, and CJ were both just the best mates and Fellas a Sqn could ever have. Simple. An enduringly sad loss, which is still comemorated every year by 1435 Flt and MPA. There is an annual fly past, and wreath ceremony, at which there is rarely a 'dry eye'.

Truely Touching, and valid.

RIP

Advo

BEagle

17th May 2007, 19:29

OKOC - so I hear....ba$tard!

CJ was indeed a good chap - and I'm sure Mongo was too, but I never met him.

Akrotiri bad boy

17th May 2007, 20:41

It's always the good guys who go first.

I was on 92 with Geoff Bell in the early '80's. A thoroughly nice chap who was genuinely interested in everyone's story, no matter how mundane.

RIP indeed.

soddim

17th May 2007, 22:22

Maybe I shouldn't take issue with London Mil's description of the Falklands F4 force at post No 2 so that it does not get any more prominence. However, the allegation of fairly relaxed adherance to rules is a long way from the truth and a slur on the characters around the F4 at the time.
The Falklands F4 force was a cross-section of the whole F4 force at the time and it was thoroughly professional with a great bunch of guys who knew the difference between those rules made for the obedience of fools and those made for wise men.
Wish the present day Service was just the same.

London Mil

18th May 2007, 06:29

soddim, I think you have described the environment far better than my feeble first attempt. Merv Payne was the Boss when I went to the FI and 23 Sqn was just a 'great bunch of guys'. People like CJ, Billie Bartle, Chuckles (RIP) etc really made life far more memorable. Nasty Nigel (OC Ops) had a view that the boys were wreckless and did all he could to control their 'spirit', miserably failing in the process. I remember one crew getting held back for a week (dets used to be 6 weeks?)due to an inappropriate Firey Cross. They were actually quite pleased with this as it gave them more opportunity to have some fun!

I wouldn't want this thread to drift into a slanging match and apologise for any wrong message put across in my first post. I truly loved those days and completely agree with your last line. Things have changed and, in the process, much of the fun has disappeared.

maxburner

18th May 2007, 08:08

I'd like to endorse the comments made earlier about the F4 force in the FI. It was a professional bunch of guys doing a job a long way from home under less than ideal circumstances. The living conditions - domestic and squadron - left a little to be desired and the weather was always a factor. But the job got done. The acidents were regretable but weren't out of the ordinary for an aircraft with some 'interesting' handling qualities and a lot of performance.

I did several stints down there, the first being on the 4+ month rotation, and I have to admit it was a lot of fun.

And Hi to Wiggy. Long time no see.

soddim

18th May 2007, 09:35

We are in agreement, London Mil. May the F4 force be with you. I did my time at Stanley - 4 months of it in the Falklands winter - and I could not have wished to serve with a better bunch of hard-working, hard-playing professional mates. Not sure how the body survived!

Four Types

18th May 2007, 10:36

CJ and I were both made 'Honorary' members of the US Marine Corps back in the early 80s. We entertained the troops for 1/2 an hour with songs and funnies etc, both of us stood on top of the porch at the entrance to the Marine Block one dark night in Keflavic. We were then invited in and didn't buy another drink all night. Happy days.:)

Stavros19

4th Jun 2007, 14:41

I was JEngO on 19(F) with Ceejay and Mongo, and for some reason I just had an urge to look on Google to see if their loss was recorded on the net in some way. Top marks to you guys for honouring their memories.

I was on 1435 Flt a few weeks after the accident when Mongo's family came down for a memorial service. Tougher than anything I've ever had to do in civilian life.

But on a lighter note, does anyone remember seeing Mongo holding a video camera, trying to protect his head with his hand from falling Vulcan cannon shells (when someone misjudged the distanced to land during an air-to-fish gunnery demonstration)?

Jo Halden

17th Dec 2008, 16:39

Was looking through google and realised that this site was here.
I am Ian Halden's daughter and wanted to find out more from people who knew him.
Was wondering if anyone could get back to me about him and the crash.
Ian Halden was "Mongo" and died with CJ on the 30th October 1991.

scarecrow450

17th Dec 2008, 19:21

Unfortunately I was in the tower when they took off and when it was realised they were missing it was a very,very sombre mood over the next few weeks. Remember the C130's and Sea King's flying from dawn til darkness trying to find them.

We all hoped they would be found on a beach somewhere but, well.

Gainesy

18th Dec 2008, 09:19

Just bumping this back up the page for you Jo. I didn't know your father, but CJ was a good mate.

kiwibilly

23rd Jan 2009, 00:34

Jo , i was at School with Ian . I have e mailed you but I ll keep checking here. might dig around the old snaps etc and see what I have . check your e mail

Jo Halden

28th Jan 2009, 12:21

Thank you very much, which school was it?
That will be brilliant thank you.

Deleted

28th Jan 2009, 19:46

Just so fellow aviators are aware 1435 Flt still hold a short memorial service for Mongo and CJ each year. Just but still moving event. Many still talk with fond memories.

frodo_monkey

29th Jan 2009, 07:36

I was introduced by CJ to Mongo the evening before the accident in that small bar (phantom bar maybe? - memory getting a little faint now) in a top corner of the death star.

The Goose! On the wall in there is a mural painted by the guys that remains unfinished as a tribute to them - if memory serves the motto was to read "Death Before Socially Acceptable Behaviour" :ok:

im from uranus

29th Jan 2009, 08:41

I was a liney on 19 SQN at the time.

We were on det in Deci and on walking into the line hut in the morning to start work we were told 'Everybody in the crewroom, Jengo wants a word.' (Not Stavros from post 24, it was the other one!). So there we were, all thinking 'what the hell did we do last night?' when the Jengo walks in and says ' OK lads, I'll get straight to the point. Mongo and CJ have bought it in the Falklands (His words, not mine), there's a Herc inbound, we're going home. Don't worry about the jets, the Jag guys are sorting them out for us. Back to the block and pack your kit.'

You could have heard a pin drop. We all stood there wondering if it was a wind up. Sadly it wasn't.

So we get back to Wildenrath that evening and all the singlies dump their baggage off at BB70 and head to the Mally. We walk in (about 30 of us) and the place falls silent! Go to the bar, get drinks and get completely wasted. I don't think anyone begrudged our singing that night.

A short time later the memorial service was held in the church at Wildenrath with many ex 19 guys flying in to attend. After the service we had to get out of No1's and get back to work as the families of Mongo and CJ were visiting the SQN to see their boys jets. All the groundcrew were stuck in the soft, not allowed outside until the families had departed, when all of a sudden the Wing Co (N.S?) walks in with Mongo's mother. 'All in the crewroom, NOW!'
Then Ian's mum stands there and says 'I just wanted to say thank you for looking after my son's aircraft. He loved flying and spoke of you a lot. Without you, he would have never have been able to fly, so thank you very much.'

That was unbelieveable and very much appreciated.:ok:

I still think of them both. They were great lads, simple as that.:D:D

Oh dear, seem to have a bit of dust in my eye, must dash....

crabbbo

29th Jan 2009, 17:29

Jo

I joined the RAF on the same day as Ian and had the pleasure of having the bed next to his when we started Officer Training at Cranwell. We were also both on the same Jet Provost course together at Church Fenton in 1987. At the end of the course Ian went fast jets and i went helicopters. We then next crossed paths in the Falklands, him on the F4, me on Chinooks. I was in the bar the evening that he had found out that you were conveived, it absolutely made him even happier and prouder than normal. He spent the evening, having taken the barman's jacket off him, behind the bar serving drinks to us all and sundry. It was quite a night and we were all so very pleased for him.

I was absolutely gutted, as was everyone who had the pleasure of knowing him, when i heard of the accident. He was so truly proud that he was to become a father and would have been a great Dad.

RIP Ian my friend

Jo Halden

31st Jan 2009, 16:22

Thank you for all these comments.
Also my Dad's mum (Mary) died last year, unexpected but in her sleep.
All these stories of him are always of him drinking and being loud haha, thank you. Mum has read these and remembers most of the times when he got home after these nights out haha.

LucyA89

13th Apr 2009, 17:48

Hi All,
My name is Lucy, I am CJ Weightmans neice, my Mum is Sue Weightman (was Atkinson) and her Mum/CJs Mum is Angela Weightman, I only say their names incase you remember them too.
I have been watching this thread for some time, I like to search CJs name every now and again, its touching to see how well thought of he was and how warm your memories are of him.
I see that a few of you contacted Jo, and I am sorry to ask but I wonder if anyone has some old pictures of CJ, I know my Mum, Nana and brother would be overwhelmed with joy if I could find any.
They all miss him dearly, sadly I don't remember CJ but he left an empty space in the family which has never healed.
Thank you for taking the time to read this,
Kind regards,
Lucy

Wensleydale

14th Apr 2009, 06:50

Lucy,

I am sure that CJ featured in the photo diaries that are kept in 8 Sqn's history room at Waddington. He was at most social events and at the forefront of Sqn life. You can probably contact the Sqn Historian through the 8 Sqn Website (Google is your friend) and ask if it possible to research these and send on copies? (It has been done in the past). I am sure that there are still some people at Waddo who knew CJ from the early 80s on the Shackleton who could help.

W

Good Luck

LucyA89

14th Apr 2009, 07:08

Hi W,
Thanks so much, I will have a look and see if I can get a response from anyone, I will let you know how I get on with it,
Kind Regards
Lucy

im from uranus

14th Apr 2009, 10:25

Lucy, check your PM's.....
IFU

big v

16th Apr 2009, 18:56

Hi Lucy,

I saw your post and, after years of looking, was finally moved to register on pprune.

CJ and me joined the RAF together and went through officer training and the nav course together. We had a great time, especially at Finningley, but went off in different directions at the end of the nav course (what else from 2 navigators!). I still have happy memories of him.

CJ was a great loss, he was the youngster from our course. I got to Wildenrath for the memorial service and spoke to your gandparents; we had previously enjoyed happier meetings.

I will attempt to PM you some very old photos.

Be proud of him, he was well liked and respected.

bigv

Simon Halden

11th May 2009, 14:01

Just thinking of Ian and came across this site - still much missed and very good to hear some of the stories connected with Ian after all these years..!

LucyA89

1st Apr 2010, 08:26

I am afraid it has been nearly a year since my last visit.
Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone for your kind comments and an even bigger thank you to those who have sent pictures.
Lucy

im from uranus

1st Apr 2010, 09:44

Lucy,
Myself and another ex 19(F) Squadron groundcrew lad are arranging a reunion for ex Wildenrath 19(F) Sqn members on June 19th, 2010. It's mainly groundcrew, though all are welcome. We shall be raising a glass or two to Mongo and CJ. They've never been forgotten.

LucyA89

1st Apr 2010, 09:57

I hope a good day is had by all :)
I would be happy to send you the pictures I have received incase people would like to see them at the reunion, might be nice.
If you would like me to, just pop me a PM across with your email address, and I could scan some more of my Nana's if you like.
Lucy

Mmmmnice

2nd Apr 2010, 08:12

Not quite on thread, but - nothing quite like sitting on the pad at Alice as an F4 came over the top upside down - measles I believe?

tommee_hawk

6th Jun 2010, 00:02

I remember CJ from various Finningley and Leuchars air shows of the 1980s. A true character, the kind of operator sadly missing from today's RAF. Although I've been in the Falklands several times over the last few years, 2010 will be the first time I'll be there at the end of October. I hope that 1435 Flt still commemorate the loss and hope to attend the ceremony. RIP guys.

Dengue_Dude

6th Jun 2010, 10:04

It might be coincidental, but I remember carrying an F4 driver's mum on the Tristar back from MPA.

She had visited the site of her son's crash. The year sounds about right, definitely the correct set of circumstances.

We had her on the flight deck for take off as we flew close to the crash site on our northbound departure track.

Nice lady, sad circumstances.

RIP

wf1

7th Jun 2010, 12:33

I remember the crash at stanley 1983 , i was a flight line mechanic on 23 sqn for 4 months detached from 228ocu , i strapped in the pilot and nav , and a/f b/f the aircraft before the trip .

teeteringhead

7th Jun 2010, 12:49

Not often much connection between F4 crews and helicopter pilots (except in FI), but that wasn't my connection with the incident.

I was a "Barnwood Desky" at the time of Mongo and CJ's crash, and that night was Duty Personnel Officer (DPO) at Innsworth, an overnight duty shared by all the deskies, and responsible for the Kinforming and associated stuff.

After the event Mongo's preganant wife (in Wildenrath) was needing her mother - and it fell to the DPO to fix it,as ma-in-law was an "additional contact" on the NOK form we had to find her and get her out to Wilders. She was not at this time aware of the crash. The address was in Salisbury, so (such was the power of the DPO!) I got hold of the Staish at Boscombe to get him to do the Kinforming to mother-in-law.

Suitably in his No 1, + Mrs and maybe padre, off he goes, to discover Ma-in-law has moved! Fortunately new tenants (it was a flat) were mates who knew of her new address, so it was sorted, and we got her flown out to her daughter that night to be with her.

There's another twist to the story which I don't want to post publicly, but if any family/good mates want to know - feel free to PM me.

Just shows how good the RAF was (and I hope still are!) at this unfortunately frequent duty .........

[and guys and gals, please make sure all the addresses on your NOK forms are up-to-date ;)]

morningmorning

24th Sep 2010, 12:00

I was also on CJ's OTU course and B flight. He was a really good friend. I have a couple of pictures from those days which I come across from time to time and remember some of the antics! The service at Wildenrath was one of my saddest days.

sally91

30th Oct 2011, 23:58

Hi Lucy

My name is Sally. I've been watching this network for some years and have finally plucked up courage to add an entry. I met your uncle ceej at an Air Show in 1991 and fell for him instantly, I didn't let him know that straight away, but 20 years on I still treasure the times we had together, the letters and memories. When my mum met him, she said she'd ordered him straight from heaven.....but heaven obviously wanted him back!!!!!

With fondest regards
Sally

sim2401

28th Aug 2012, 15:25

I was groundcrew with 19(f)sqn and found Mongo to be quite a character for an officer...I remember one day the Wg commander a little irrate shouting down the phone " Fg officer Halden why am I talking to you down the phone when you should be in the ops room"... I was on guard once and doing a sunday morning patrol spotted a rather worse for wear Mongo stumbleing up the main drag of Wildenrath...put him in the back of the land rover and dropped at the officers mess..with a sign around his neck saying if found return to room blah blah blah officers mess RAF Wildenrath..He also became a pilot before passing his driveing test and getting his bike liscence I recall ( not 100%) but all told he was a great guy I found I could approach.
Also a story from 1435 flt I was told ,he entered the Q shed with a pair of springy eyeball joke glasses one morning (worse for wear) and told a groundcrew member should we scramble "Wake me up"

A true legend..really funny guy ..

sim2401

16th Sep 2012, 12:56

Stavros you might just remember me for being a pain in the butt for you...I remember Cyprus and a live fireing excersise when a certain South African jockey let rip a bit too early with his Suu gun...and whilst everyone was diveing for cover Mongo was stood on the rock face with his hand on his head videoing the event as if that would protect yer noggin ....not even a kevlar helmet would protect you... It was a thorough good day all told....(get me drift)..

By the way Mr L you were a good guvnor for a rodney...you gave me a fitters course and sorted me out a new pair of socks from stores ..and a nice kebab on Op Granby...

Good memories boss... Zuco

Janda

16th Sep 2012, 21:26

I was on 8 Squadron with CJ and I can only reiterate what has been said about him. He was a real professional but had a great sense of humour. I remember his locker was opposite mine and we were forever getting in each others way. I also remember spending several hours in gas masks during a Taceval where all around him were actually pleased to have them on!!

funkyplummer

16th Sep 2012, 21:44

Hi Mr z!!!! Rob parkhill here, good to hear from you, of all the people from my 19 days your the one everyone asks about!!

BIG_G_MCCREADIE

16th Sep 2012, 23:11

I would like to add my sad memories of that time in the Falklands and the loss of the Faith. I was an Instie on 19 (F) Sqn and was detached down the Falklands at the time when we lost CJ & Mongo. They were a good crew to know, we had been detached to Spangdallen earlier that year and the Groundcrew and Aircrew mixed well and I got to know a little of the antics of Mongo in the Officers Mess at Spangdallen. I still remember well that time in Falklands and the antics of the Navy in the 12 facility bar the night of the crash. I attended the memorial service in the Falklands and I still have a copy of the order of service leaflet. It was real sad time but I remember their was a discussions of replacing the aircraft and renaming it Faith and a senior officer sending a letter from the UKwhich ended with “keep the Faith”

RIP CJ & Mongo
Big G

flipperthebush

17th Sep 2012, 19:05

As for the "Firepower Demonstration" in cyprus (for the deight of the trolly dollys!!) I seem to remember a car parked quite a way behind us getting a front wing stoved in as a result of the early shots, OC ops from Aki (who had just left 19) walked off mumbling that they were on there own this time!!!!!
I think the pilot you are on about was Rhodesian, most definatly NOT Zimbabwean!!!

I remember one TLP at Florens CJ was the imprest officer and was most concerned (late evening in the bar) that the lineys hadn't got enough cash. At this point he grabbed a large wad of cash from his ankle pocket and started handing it out despite our protests that we had enough. Says a great deal about how highly thought of he was, that it was all returned to him the next day.

Mr Z how the devil are you, your old neighbour and namesake!!!!