Flying Scools in NE Scotland

[Robbo0885]

Hello all, this is my first post here. I am just about to finish Uni in the next two weeks, and I have been looking forward to doing my PPL when I finish. I live in Aberdeen, Scotland, and have been looking into three main schools for my PPL: Inverness, Moray at RAF Kinloss, and Dundee.

I am trying to decide between them and wondered if anyone had any comments on any of these schools, perhaps did training at any of them, or is currently training with them.

I don't drive at the moment, so it's probably train to Inv of Kinloss, Megabus to Dundee! Either way, the costs overall seem to be about the same after I add rail travel to go up North.

Any comments on this matter would be greatly appreciated. In the meantime, I am trawling through previous posts relating to these areas.

Thanks all!

[Scottishflyer182]

Hi ,

I think all the flying schools will be fairly similar so I think you need to look carefully at the transport links and decide from that.

I love flying and am sure you'll love it, but if I were you my first priority would be learning to drive. Or getting some form of transport.

Good luck with your flying

colin.

[Chukkablade]

Absolute agreement with Colin on that one. Learn to get yourself independantly mobile, because lets face it, with the public transport system in Northern Jockistan being what it is, there is a good chance your FTO will be placed in a situation of having to bill you for missed/late hours etc because you have been let down just getting there. Especially so as it sounds like you have a bit of a hike to get to the field.

I'd also be looking at doing a trial run - get an 'experience hour' in with whatever FTo takes your fancy, and see for yourself how easy it is to get there and back. Then multiply that hassle by 45+ hours. You might end up rethinking your priorities at that point.

[Crash one]

I agree with the comments so far, personal transport is a must, (get a Harley)
I am currently training with Tayside Aviation at Fife (Glenrothes) & can't fault them. A/G radio a/field, no traffic problems, free ground exams, free landings at Fife, Dundee & Perth etc. Dundee do the CPL side also.
Most of our instructors were trained by the same company either here or Dundee.
Don't know much about them up north!
Have fun, which I'm sure you will & welcome to the forum & the land of the impoverished.

[Robbo0885]

Thanks for the initial swift replies all.

I say I don't drive, I'm sitting me final dirivng test in about a month, but wasn't thinking of owning a car-its either enough money for PPL of for car i figure, not both.

I am thinking of doing the package courses, Inverness offers a 45 hour package at ~£4500 in a Piper Tomahawk including books and bits and bobs such as flight computers and checklists. Kinloss offers package at same, in a Cessna 152, flying with RAF pilots as part-time instructors, but books and bits and bobs are to be bought seperate. Dundee offer package at ~£5500 in a C152/C172 and "£200 of Pooley's Flight equipment". Textbooks are seperate

I'm thinking of doing 2 hrs a time, once a week. I have £4500 saved up, and what to start in the next month or so. Approx travel expenses to Inv or Kin I've worked out to be about £800, and is 2 and half hours travel each way. Travel to Dundee i'm looking at £100 tops, with an hour or so travel. Alternatively, I could drive if I get a shot of my folks car....

I'm kinda stuck as to which way to go. So many pros and cons with each....any further comments are very welcome.

Thanks all.

[wet wet wet]

It's been said many times before - think very carefully before paying large sums of money up front to a flying school. They can (and do) go bust, leaving you as an unsecured creditor. Best to pay-as-you-go, after all you may not like the school once you start and want to take your business elsewhere. Also check that you are OK medical-wise before handing over large amounts of dosh.
Besides that I can echo the comments made regarding Tayside, you could certainly do worse than go there.

[Croqueteer]

:ok: Have a 3-week holiday in Florida!

[Floppy Link]

Have you investigated Perth?

http://www.scottishaeroclub.org.uk/learnToFly.html

[Golf Alpha Whisky]

What about Grampian at Aberdeen??

[Robbo0885]

Thanks for the comments all. As far as medical goes, I hold a class 1 commercial medical that i got back in november last year. i believe this also gives the class 2 clearance. (I figured as my overall aim is to work for airlines, might as well make sure i'm able to do it medically before starting!)

In regard to doing the PPL abroad, this would be nice, but I have read alot on the topics on this board about the UK-US pros and cons, and would rather do it locally. Aberdeen would be great to do it, but the price is ludicrous. I think i worked out that it would cost around £6500 for the 45 hours, plus around £20 landing fees-simply not viable for me.

The only reason I am looking at packages is because it works out cheaper. As with all things, it is a risk that they go bust, but the same risk is taken any time you book a package holiday-i figure its about calculated risk. Kinmloss sure aint going anywhere, the flying club is subbed by the RAF, as for Dundee its been there a while, as has Inverness.

I did look at Perth, but as they werent offering a package, I hadn't looked more into it. Do most people pay for it as they go, or do it in a package? Is the extra money you end up paying by doing it pay as you go worth it simply because you can change school and decide which books etc you will get instead of being given in the package?

Obviously there are opinions backing either side, my objective is simply to gather as much info as possible so i can make the best decision. I mean, even down to aircraft-any real reason why you would choose a P.Tomahawk over a C152 for example?

[muggins]

I did look at Perth, but as they werent offering a package, I hadn't looked more into it.
Leading Edge, at Perth and Cumbernauld, do not offer any packages for the simple reason that the best advise is never to pay up front!
If you have the money, put it into an easy access bank account that will earn you interest, and pay as you go.
If you doubt this advice, search on this forum for Flight Academy Scotland
Ken (a student with Leading Edge)

[gasax]

I whole heartedly agree with muggins. anyone daft enough to give a large bundle of cash to a flying school almost deserves to see it disappear! (sorry to those of you it happened to but.....)

You're thinking far too simplistically about how much it will cost to learn. You will not get 2 lessons a week. You will be messed around by any number of factors - weather, transport, third parties, the 'school' losing your booking (or giving it to someone else, the a/c going tech (or not being available because of maintenance). Or the instructor not being availalbe or the 10th instructor you've had wants to repeate something. Just about everyone of these things will increase your costs.

You'll end up having months when you haven't flown and then having to re-learn those skills - and hopefully you'll have weeks when the sky is blue etc.

You would be much better advised to visit the places you are talking about and take a trial lesson with each of them - an 'expensive' lesson with a good instructor is going to teach you an enourmous amount more than someone simply hours building before they get the job they want.

It seems a very long time ago I went through some of this and ended up at Tayside alternating between 2 very good instructors. This is not a plug for Tayside, it is just that at the time they had the instructors I got on best with. It is very interesting to calculate the totals but what you really want is an environment that really teaches and you get on with. After half a dozen wasted trips or days the money will become much less important.

And I say that as an adopted Aberdonian!

[jaycee46]

Got to go with the sentiments expressed by the other respondants.

For what it is worth, I have had some training at Inverness, and find the school and club there to be excellent. There is a mad bloke called Peter :cool: on the desk, who is most welcoming and helpful. The scenery is spectacular and there are currently few airspace restrictions. I would get there quick, though as HIAL, like many, are getting 'international spaceportitis' now that sleezyjet & co have moved in.

And for gawd's sake Dont pay for anything in aviation training, upfront - anywhere!!!!:ugh:

[skydriller]

Hi,

Its great you have managed to save up the cash to learn to fly. But when you finally have that shiny poo coloured folder from the CAA.......Have you allowed for how you are going to afford to keep current? Not as much as the initial outlay I know, but its not a cheap exercise.

As for flying schools, I used to live in the NE and figured from where I lived it would take me 5 mins longer to drive to Dundee than Dyce due appalling traffic in Aberdeen, and they were closest places I could fly from. To this day I endevour to fly from the closest place to where I live, as I want to enjoy the flying, not spend hours getting to the aerodrome.

I visited both Aberdeen and Dundee before choosing Tayside. Dont dismiss hour builders, my instructor was wanting to get into the airlines, but loved flying. We hit it off and his instruction style suited me - which I believe is more important - plus he didnt just stick rigidly to the sylabus, he wanted my experience to be more than just "pass the Skills Test".

Oh and Finally :

NEVER PAY ANYTHING UP FRONT!!

Regards, SD..

[Floppy Link]

Take the bus to Culter (http://www.hjshelicopters.co.uk/contactus.aspx?id=5) and blow it all on the start of a PPL(H).

You know you want to.

[Crash one]

I also go along with all that's been said.
I can only relate my own experience at Tayside, I pay "up front" in 10hr blocks, £1290 per bang, usually an hour or so in arrears. I have seen their record from way back, flew here in '87 but didn't finish it. Cash out is a risk but cheaper, depends how much research you can do ref past / guess future of organisation. If you read up threads on Flight academy Scotland it will make your eyes water. So unless you know someone in Government office with a fair idea of the state of the flying school, as I do, be careful.
As for total costs, at your age probably close to minimum req, but don't bet your life on it. As has been said, weather, a/c & instructor serviceability, admin cockups etc all help to screw up your calculated schedule. It will not work out as, 45hrs that's it, gimme the ticket. Take it as it comes is all you can do in this weather beaten country.

Stewartflyer, is this the Stewart we all know so well? How does the Dornier compare to the 152?
Trevor

[Crash one]

Hi Stewart, how ya doing?
Trevor.

[Robbo0885]

Thanks all, certainly there is lots to consider. My preference at the moment is Dundee, with Tayside Av. Its easiest to get to, and only about an hour and a half away.

Crash One, are you flying with Dundee at the moment did you say? What is the situation like for booking lessons? Easy enough to get two lessons at a time, two weeks or so in advance, or would I need to book farther ahead than that?

I must admit, Dundee is my preference, simply for the fact that they do more advanced training too. As i want to do flying commercially, perhaps doing PPL with Dundee is a good idea, as when I do night ratings, IMC, CPL etc I will know the set up and perhaps know the instructors a bit better.

The more I think it through, the more i'm convincing myself it is worth the extra money, and certainly worth the ease of travel (thankyou Megabus...lol) One thing maybe a current PPL student could give me an idea on-how much do books and flight equipment come in at?

Dundee's package includes "£200 of Pooleys flight equipment", paying hour by hour I would need to buy this stuff myself, how much do the essentials tend to cost?

[Crash one]

Robbo,
I'm currently with Tayside at Fife (Glenrothes) booking requires about a week in advance due to popularity, but you can book several slots at the time, good idea cos weather has a say in things, I usually book about 4-6 in advance then keep a check on when your last one will be & book some more a week or so before your last one, you only pay as you fly them unless you are on "account".
Books are about <£20 each, 7 off total buy as you need them, start with Air Law you need to pass that exam before they will send you solo. Get the "Confuser" invaluable ~£20. Buy nav kit as you need it, you won't need it in the circuit to start with. Scotland chart 500mil £13, good to look at & learn about early. £200 total is probably close but less painful if you buy as required. Get a decent pair of sunglasses, take-off & landings at Dundee 28 are into sun in the afternoon.
Anything else just ask.
Trevor.

[Robbo0885]

Thanks Trevor, I had a look for those books online, and happened across the full set of 7 "Air Pilots Manuals" by Trevor Thom for various prices. The whole set is on eBay just now for ~£70, but they are the 2004/2005 editions. Does this matter? I'm guessing most of the stuff will be the same as brand new editions, maybe minor changes to law etc?

As for nav equipment, do you buy stuff from the school or from websites etc?

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, its such a great help being a newbie to flying training. I feel like i did when i started university-excited but daunted...lol!

[Seagull61]

Hi Robbo,
I recently started when i was living near Aberdeen. I toyed with Grampian and also Kinross. Eventually started with the later and although the drive there is long it was a nice and friendly club. In the end i went to the states to finish it off.
However i did do 6 of the 7 exams at Grampian. They only charged £10 an exam, although it was a pain getting anyone to answer the phone!

[Crash one]

Robbo
Prob no problem getting slightly out of date books except Air Law, latest version is a must as laws change. Most recent refers to Rule 5 min height over built up areas etc, changed in the last year. Check with your flight school they sometimes prefer a particular brand cos they teach that. Some brands are easier to understand than others. Sometimes ex students flog them off once they think they have learned enough!!
Same with nav kit which doesn't go out of date, whizzwheel flight computer, CRP 1 is basicaly the same, mine is 20yrs old & perfecly ok.
Pooleys stopwatch is prob most expensive item, & probably not included in any "package" but any half decent stopwatch will do.
Don't bother at first with an A5 strap on kneeboard, you will be doing all your nav on an A4 plog sheet, decent clipboard will do.
Ask other students / instructors what they use / suggest before you waste cash on Ebay. Same with headsets, get your own, better to have just your own bugs crawling round your ears! They can range from £80--£?000+ new, ~£30 odd second hand. as long as they work no problem.
Although some may not be compatible with some a/c. Grob 115 fr instance needs two of the same type, once again check with school. I think your best bet would be go to the school of your choice & get a feel for the place, what sort of advice / help / atmosphere you get etc.
Enjoy it.
Trevor

[skydriller]

Agree with most of what Crash says. Dont fall for any flying school saying you need to buy "This...This..This..Blah...etc....and that will be £500" or whatever.:suspect: := You appear to be on a very strict budget, so

Absolutely Required :

1.Logbook

2.Map.

3.Protractor, Square 360 degree is best, but standard 180 one usable.

4.Ruler, with 1:500000/1:250000 scaled markings best, but any 30cm ruler is better than none - there are scale/distances to read off on the map!!

The above is unavoidable I believe for any pilot, then comes :

5.Whizzwheel. If you are planning going professional definitely get a CRP-5 type to take you through commercial studies too. Unfortunately the sylabus for PPL still requires this antiquated piece, despite the computer/spreadsheet/calculator/GPS age overtaking it post PPL....:ugh: get the cheapest deal you can.

Additionally,

Ground study books. As has been mentioned only the Air Law content changes, and usually its well publicised when it does. The RT Cap 431(?) was available on the Web for free. That leaves Met/Nav/HR/Performance/Tech. You might well be able beg/borrow books as required to do the exams, and if not definitely buy second-hand where possible. If you Learn the stuff properly, you dont need a PPL Confuser....but they are apparently very good!! (I didnt hear about it until too late:rolleyes: though passed everything no problem!)

As for kneeboards/pilotclipboards/stopwatches/Headsets and other gadgets....:hmm:

Fold map to A4 size, use a couple of bulldog clips to attach Plog to back of map and its firm enough to write on. Alternatively, I have come across those that write EVERYTHING on the map itself.......?
Have you got a watch....?;)
The flyingschool will have headsets you can borrow....

Overall, I would suggest buying the least ammount of stuff possible until you have a little experience flying and figure out what you actually need!!!

Regards, SD..:ok:

[ZE731]

Robbo,

I'm just taking lessons towards my PPL with Tayside Aviation in Dundee and have been very happy with them so far. I'm currently learning on Cessna 152's but as others have already pointed out, they also offer training on Grob Herons. The Cessnas are slightly cheaper per hour for training than the Grobs, but it is all a matter of preference and your budget.

The people at Tayside in Dundee are a very friendly and helpful bunch of people, particulary the staff on the Ops desk. As Crash mentioned in his posting, they allow you to book a few slots in advance which can be really handy if you are limited to flying weekends. The Instructor I have at the moment is excellent - can't rate him highly enough. Very enthusiastic about flying which really comes across in his style of instruction. I have also flown with a couple of the other instructors and they were all top notch. Overall, they seem a professional, well-run outfit.

As far as equipment goes, a logbook and checklist are absolute essentials to begin. I also bought the Trevor Thom Vol 1 and the Air Law books to start with. Ask your instructor what they recommend before you spend any money as they might have a preference for one set of books book over another. Check the book price comparison websites or PM me as I've found there are huge variations in the price of the books. I'd also highly recommend buying the 'PPL Confuser' book. I've personally found it really useful for reinforcing my understanding of the exam material. I havn't bought any of the nav equipment yet. Other costs you will incur are the flying club membership and insurance waiver.

One word of warning, don't bank on getting two lessons a week every week. The weather can really stuff your plans! I've just had 4 weather cancellations in a row. Unlucky I know, but it can and does occassionaly happen. :sad: .........Saying that, I had a run of lessons with clear blue skies and perfect conditions before that! :D

The best advice is to go and speak to the flying clubs you are interested in flying with and organise a trial flight. If you are like me you will be hooked on flying as soon as you climb into the left hand seat on that first flight!

Best of luck and enjoy your flying! :ok: