West Bound Atlantic Crossing

[PONNIAH123]

I would like to do the west bound Atlantic Crossing from UK to Canada on my Cessna 172.

The only problem is that I am a VFR Pilot and can not get IR due to
mild color Blind.

I have been told that both the pilot and aircraft must be IFR rated for
Transoceanic flight, for flights to Canada, Denmark and Iceland.

Anybody has any experience on flying west bound Atlantic Crossing? ,is it possible to fly VFR to Canada?, I have been told that it’s possible to fly VFR.

Any information or sharing experience would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Ponniah (G-JJPJ) :confused:

[selfin]

Have a chat with the guv up at this company, knows a few things.

http://www.computaplane.com/contact.htm

[PONNIAH123]

I will call them on monday
PJ

[SkyHawk-N]

Normally aircraft being ferried across the Atlantic have to be approved for IFR flight. VFR crossings can be made but routes and altitude are limited. I've heard UK-Keflavik-Sondrestrom-Iqaluit (Frobisher Bay) is a possible VFR route.

For a 172 ferry tanks will be required.

Speak to the experts, there are plenty of ferry companies on the internet.

[Heliport]

Discussion about Atlantic crossings HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=258694)



H.

[PONNIAH123]

if VFR is possible , what sort of planning/permissions are required?

here is a reply from a ferry pilot (Gerald Childers)

You don't mention ferry tanks, so I presume you have the idea to attempt this crossing with only the standard fuel (43 gallons, I believe), against the prevailing westerlies. The longest leg on your route is from Sondrestromfjord to Iqaluit (BGSF - CYFB), at 485 nm. At that latitude the winds aren't usually very strong, but they don't need to be. At 115 ktas and 8 gph, subtracting fuel used to climb, that leaves you about one hour's reserve in dead calm winds. Against a 20-knot average headwind, you would run out of fuel before you arrived.


You may think an hour's reserve is a lot. But you're used to flying trips studded with alternate airports. The only airport between Sondrestromfjord and Iqaluit is a gravel strip at Pangnirtung, 100 miles off-track, with no fuel available. The nearest airport to Iqaluit is another gravel strip at Kimmirut, 64 nm further on. I want two hour's reserve on that leg.


Other legs aren't much better, and can have very strong winds, and bad weather—though, to be sure, August is your best bet. I invite you to monitor the winds-aloft forecasts at http://aviationweather.gov/iffdp/fdwndh.php (http://javascript<b></b>:ol('http://aviationweather.gov/iffdp/fdwndh.php');) to get an idea. I don't remember what the winds were when Tony and I flew the Iqaluit-to-Sondrestrom leg in August 2005, but in the photos I took, the sky is filled with lenticulars.


No ferry pilot I know would want to make this crossing. It's not that it's impossible, but that, to be safe, you'd have to plan on a month enroute, waiting for the right conditions. Patience is your only asset. Meanwhile, we have to make a living.

[flyingfemme]

Gerry is a capable and reliable ferry pilot with many years of experience.....believe him!

[PONNIAH123]

any good place to get/fit ferry tank in the UK for Cessna 172N & how much roughly going to cost?
Thanks
PJ

[spittingimage]

Cost of fitting a ferry tank in a C172 ? Depends on the State in which it is registered. N-reg would probably be about US$2,000+ and would have to be signed off by an FAA engineer. If G-reg, then you are into liaison with our friendly CAA at Gatwick and would probably cost a minor fortune just to apply for the fuel system mod., albeit temporary. I did ask about this some years ago and it was in the hundreds of pounds for the paperwork fee alone even then.

Bear in mind also that, legally speaking, you need to apply for clearance to fly in non-standard configuration (ie ferry-tanked) with each country's CAA equivalent whose airspace through which you will pass. So, UK, Iceland, Danes for Greenland, etc. In practice, they do not often ask to see it but ...

VFR is possible but not very practical and is not approved above 6000 ft oceanic, except in Greenland where you will probably need some 11000 + ft to clear the ice-cap anyway ! That said, it is often VMC over the ice-cap and quite unforgettable.

Ferry-tanked you are into 'minimum crew only'. No pax thus. Mind you, in a C172 with a typical 120 USG ferry tank installed you won't even have a lot of room just for yourself ! And be careful when you fill the tank as the aircraft will probably suddenly sit on its tail as the CofG moves aft !

If I have not already put you off, I suggest you give give Far North Aviation a ring. They are based at Wick and can probably give more detailed information about fitting tanks. They also rent out safety equipment.

Having tapped all this out for your encouragement, I suspect that the biggest hurdle you may face will be insurance. Bit of a Catch-22 here; if you have not done it before - and it sounds as though you haven't - you are unlikely to get insurance.

Best of luck !

SI

[PONNIAH123]

Si,
You are right about ferry tank, I did contact Andrew @ Far North Aviation, he pretty much said to forget about talking to CAA about Ferry Tank.

I also contact my insurance company, the first question they asked about my Atlantic crossing experience.

I am now talking to some Ferry pilot to fly with me, below is one reply from a very experienced Pilot (Bill Cox).

anybody has any other clever ideas?
PJ

Reply from Bill Cox
Don't despair. There are always ways around the problems.

The insurance shouldn't be too tough. Simply list me as the PIC. I have U.S. commercial/multi/instrument/seaplane/ glider/helicopter with 150 Atlantic crossings and 14,000 hours, so i should qualify.

Only slight problem there is that I don't have a UK license. For that reason, since you're moving to Canada anyway and will need to register the Skyhawk in Canada eventually, you might want to simply pre-register in advance and arrange for both of us to get Canadian licenses. Over the years, I've held ICAO French, Italian, Australian, Fijian, UK and German licenses in order to deliver airplanes registered in or to those countries. It's usually simply a matter of filling out some forms and paying a small fee.

[mm_flynn]

anybody has any other clever ideas?

Make sure you are clear what you want to accomplish.

If it is get your plane to Canada because you are moving - make sure you can a - keep it G reg, or B - it is reasonably economic to move onto the C Reg (ideally it is still in compliance with its original TC). It will almost surely be cheaper to ship the plane than fly it.

If this is an excuse for an adventure (which it has the potential to be - and certainly my experience was fantastic) then make sure with ferry tank, survival gear, ferry pilot, etc. you are still going to be able to be in the aircraft to experience it! If you are going this route, it seems likely you will want to re-register on the C (there is probably a lot less support for overseas (i.e. here) Canadian admin than FAA) and have the ferry tank fitted in compliance with their regs. You then need to check there is no 'required crew only' limit imposed and check how over weight you can get permission to operate and how that compares to you, the ferry pilot, necessary/desired gear and fuel. I am sure with sufficient expenditure of time and money it can be made to happen:) (good luck and have fun!)

[TurboJ]

We had a plane ferried from the USA to UK - for insurance purposes the pilot had to have 100 previous crossings under his belt and have over 1000 multi engine even though he was flying a single - still can't work that one out.

I think its a brave person who flies single engine across the pond !!

[PONNIAH123]

I have been researching and visiting Accident Investigation Board's about Atlantic Crossing related accidents, in particular the "The Danish Aircraft Accident Investigation Board" (http://www.hclj.dk/sw358.asp).

I have found that most of the accidents are related to bad Weather flying and not related to Single Engine Failures , sure there are some Engine Related accidents, but most of them are related bad Weather flying or bad Planning.

Some fatal accidents related to improper use of Immersion Suits/Rafts ,meaning pilots did Survive the ditching but died later due to improper use of Immersion Suits.

The message I am getting is that Atlantic Crossing risky but manageable risks ,as long as planned properly and not fly in bad whether and get proper training on Immersion Suits/Rafts/Life Jackets/emergency distress beacons.

like mm_flynn mentioned , I am using this as an excuse for an adventure and it will be a flight of a lifetime, it’s now or never for me.

it seems that getting Insurance is the biggest hurdle for me right now, so I am concentrating on this now.

Any body knows a good insurance company in UK? ,who might be able to help me, I am already trying with my insurance agent(Traffords)

Best Regards
PJ

[SkyHawk-N]

Don't forget to have your Bendix mag and cam lifters inspected thoroughly before you go.

[PONNIAH123]

SkyHawk-N
I have put-in a factory re-build zero timed engine , which has brand new Bendix mag and cam lifters etc ,only done 62 Hours since then.

I will take extra pre-caution ,since my 172N has Lycoming 0-320-H2-AD with Single Mag and it had some early problems with this Engine and a T-Mod also done on this Engine, So I should be OK.
Thanks
Ponniah

[mm_flynn]

PONNIAH123,

Insurance isn't your problem, it is the technical/regulatory issues around Ferry tanks (can you get it fitted, with it fitted can you accompany the ferry pilot) I don't know the answers (and they depend on what register you have the aircraft on). There is going to be a ferry pilot in the plane (and he will have an IR rating so the original qustion of VFR only isn't really a problem) or else you won't get insurance and you have to have atleast SAR insurance.

You assessment of the risks being more weather and planning than mechanical failure is correct. VFR only, un-tanked, no prior maximum endurance flying (i.e. where you would be without a ferry pilot) is a planning error in the making. That is why having an experienced single engine transatlantic pilot is critical to success (and why the insurer will demand it). Hence, why the key question is the technical one of 'can you fly along with the ferry pilot in the planned aircraft configuration'

[PONNIAH123]

mm_flynn
My Aircraft currently on G Plate (G-JJPJ), My idea (based on the recommendation of a Ferry Pilot) , is to de-register from here in UK and pre-register in Canada and fly on a Special Airworthiness Certificate, I was told that Ferry Tank is not an Issue then.

Also I was told that since I have UK based , JAR PPL with Canadian FOREIGN LICENCE VALIDATION CERTIFICATE, I should be able to fly with a Ferry Pilot ,because I have PPL , I am not considered a Passenger, I will be considered a Co-Pilot.

I am in the process of Clarifying and re-confirming these issues with relevant authorities.

I have decided ,NOT to Fly VFR, un-tanked & alone, instead I will be flying with very experienced IR Pilot (with more than 250 Atlantic Trip on single engine, with 14500 hours under his belt).

I still have a long way to go , I am at an initial stage of the investigation, It may not be feasible to do the trip but I am going to try my best to do the trip.
Thanks
Ponniah

[RatherBeFlying]

Go have a good look at Equipped to Survive (http://www.equipped.com). They have some excellent articles on ocean ditchings along with raft tests.

Be aware that exiting a high winged a/c with a liferaft and getting the raft deployed without losing it is considerably more difficult than with a low winged a/c.

Marine forecasts will give you the height of waves and you may want to take them into consideration before committing to flying over those sea conditions.

The offshore helicopter people go through ditching survival courses and you may want to take one.

As a canoeist I have had the odd swim in serious rapids -- wear a survival suit.

With a freshly rebuilt engine, you may wish to fly it at least through the breakin period, maybe even 200 hours -- check with your ferry pilot.

[flyingfemme]

As the plan has unfolded, it seems to have changed. Not just a jolly across the pond but a relocation and reregistration.......

Consider the financial implications and do your sums first.

Is your G-reg aircraft VAT-paid? If it is you won't get the VAT refunded and may be better off selling it in Europe. It will be worth less in Canada.

Check the market in C-reg aircraft. You may well get something similar for less, in real money.

You could save yourself the hassle of getting an aircraft reregistered. Oh, and the expense/down time.

If you are coming back here, that would be the time to buy something whizzy for less money and bring it back to Europe.

Just a thought.

[PONNIAH123]

yes ,it's ,VAT-paid , I have thought about selling it.
I have already spent lots money by putting new engine,new Garmin package including GNS530.

it's not worth selling here as I am not going to get my money back ,that why I am thinking about taking to Canada.
PJ

[mm_flynn]

It sounds like the technical side of the plan is coming together. As FF says (and she is wise !) do the sums, with the current dollar exchange rate and all of the costs of re-registering, tanking, ferrying, etc. you would have to have a very over spec 172 to not be financially better off selling and buying a new one. The choice on the other side of the pond is so much better - and they tend to have the wizzy gadgets fitted to allow you to use the better technology infrastructure on that side of the pond. (XM radio and data, TIS, WAAS approved 530, etc)

[PONNIAH123]

The Maths don't add up for taking the aircraft to Canada.
Any good place to sell my aircraft?
PJ

[f104asa]

HI
Did you find something ?
it is possible with PPL_VFR license ?
Thankyou

[Sam Rutherford]

It is possible with a VFR licence, you just need to be extra extra careful with the weather...