Life After RAF Being An Air Traffic Controller

[cenarthfalls]

Good evening all

I am 22 and considering joining the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller and I can't get any straight answers out of my local AFCO ! ! I know a fair amount regarding military life because my father was in the army until retirement so I know what I am letting myself in for ....

My local AFCO can't answer, how useful is a military licence in civilian life ?

They have sent me around the houses on this and keep saying they will find out further information.

If there are any military ATCO out there, please let me know your opinions on this ?

I have searched the forums and some suggest it isn't valid for civilian life but how can this be the case when military ATCO work at West Drayton and Swanwick ?


Thanks In Advance and all the best ....

[trap one]

The truth is that as NATS don't isue the ticket they don't recogise it for future use. You might be able to persuade a civil non NATS airport to allow you to work free and this way you can get your tickets validated for airfield work. But this wont work at the larger NATS airfields such as Heathrow ETC. the Mil ATCO who work at Swanwick/Prestwick do so because the Goverment Via the Military says they can and therefore give them permission to do so. You'll find that any retired Mil ATCOs only work at training new ATC's not actually controlling.

[spekesoftly]

It doesn't surprise me that your local AFCO is not fully conversant with civil ATC licence requirements. His job is primarily concerned with RAF recruitment. Many ex-RAF controllers have transitioned from military to civil ATC, but they have all had to study and pass the relevant exams for the CAA ATCO licence that is a requirement for civil ATC controlling.

If you do decide to proceed with an application to the RAF, may I suggest that you play down your future civil aspirations. You will be in competition with other applicants, and to be successful you'll need to appear very keen on all things RAF, rather than 'just passing through' before moving on. It's a good idea to research plans for the future, but try not to jeopardise one option for the sake of another.

[Number2]

'play down your future civil aspirations.'

Absolutely, you don't start doing that until you are in the RAF!

[cenarthfalls]

Thanks you so much for your answers guys, did someone mention life after the RAF ? It wasn't me LOL !

:=

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

No it wasn't you, you were busy slagging of the recruiters :hmm:

[whowhenwhy]

Basically if the civvies recognised our training, then we'd all ship out. There would be a plethora of controllers in the civil market which will push their wages down and a dearth of mil controllers, which will completely screw the system. Therefore it's in both organisation's interests to maintain the status quo.

There is no equivalency at the moment (although with ESAR (or however it's spelt)5, there are mumblings along those lines). Who wants to be a civvy controller anyway when you're living the dream in the mob? :ugh:

[Number2]

'Who wants to be a civvy controller anyway when you're living the dream in the mob?'

Thanks for that. You just made my weekend. I haven't laughed so much in ages!!!!

[Jayfoe]

Ah WWW still taking the happy pills from the Doc then :O

PS I believe you may have missed an R out :D. Standards have slipped since you were the SFO.

[VectorLine]

If you want to be a civillian ATCO, do it now. Don't waste your time going to the air force.
The two are very different operating environments and many have found it too difficult to unlearn the regimented (excuse the pun) military way.
You will also get to do more controlling in civvy street. If you go to the RAF as an officer, you will very quickly do more admin than controlling.
If EASRR 5 sees the CAA having to recognise MOD ATC licences there will be a plethora of controllers - albeit crap ones - on the market. But it won't affect salaries, there will simply be more staff at non NATS airfields.

[BEagle]

When we were working on accreditation for military pilot skills and experience towards JAR-FCL professional pilot licences, it was also stated that a similar concept should apply for Air Traffickers - but it would require initiative from within the branch to start the ball rolling.

Has anyone bothered yet? If not, you've only got yourselves to blame.

[DownloadDog]

I know of several RAF ATC folk who have recently left on a PVR to go civvy. As already mentioned, they stiil have to endergo the same training as some bloke off the street in order to get the 'ticket'. However, they have the advantage of all their experience to fall back on while training. Where it hurts is the pay cut they have to take in order to do it. The pay while training is fairly low (approx 15k) for about 18 months. This can be a shock if you're used to Flt Lt in the mob. But, and it's a big but, once you are fully trained up and make it to area control the rewards are far better in civvy world. My mate is on nearly 80k, works 35 hours a week and has a stable roster. Furthermore, he doesn't have to dets to unpleasant places, orderly officer, butt snorkel to get promoted or do pointless secondary duties.

Your choice.

[Lookatthesky]

The pay while training is fairly low (approx 15k) for about 18 months

£10k for 9 months now, so slightly better ;)

[Il Duce]

If you want to control aeroplanes, go via the civvy route. If you want to control aeroplanes and risk being shot at whilst doing so, join the military (let's not forget the Navy....................oh, ok let's forget the navy).
On a financial note - a colleague has just left HM Flying Club to go controlling on the civvy side and is forking out around £4000 of his own money to part-fund a civilian controlling "ticket". He is very fortunate that the company he is going to work with is providing the other part of his fees to the tune of around £20,000. I know of other ex-RAF controllers who have paid the whole lot out of their own pockets in order to pay their way through to civilian controlling.

[London Mil]

cenarthfalls, firsty, you will read a lot of opinion on here and some of that is completely uniformed. Similarly, comments from people such as VectorLine ("crap ones" etc) just emphasise that there can be an 'us and them' attitude.

Some facts:

If you join the RAF as a controller the course you now complete covers a large part of the ESSAR 5 requirements. Whilst you will not hold an ICAO licence, you will be a fair way to having the qualifications necessary to obtain such a licence. Currently, no organisation provides 'bridging' training but things may change in the years to come. There is certainly a shortage of controllers and I think that, as the RAF continue to meet more elements of ESSAR 5, someone will recognise the potential recruiting ground.

Although I have previously criticised VL, his coments about operating environments is correct. As a civil controller you will be trained to operate a within a well honed 'sausage machine' where, for example, you will be expected to nail exactly 3nm (or even 2.5) between all you aircraft, hour upon hour; this takes skill and concentration. Alternatively, as a military person, you may be required to complete high speed intercepts (before a FC type jumps in here, this is now fact), air-to-air refuelling or the more routine transit tracks; an equal level of skill is necessary. The choice here is yours. Personally I have enjoyed military controlling and would not pursue a career in the civil world as, to be honest, you get a little jaded after a few decades. This is not me being critical of the other side of the house.

If all you want is money, don't bother with the military. The overall package isn't bad (take the quoted salary and multiply by about 1.5 to give you something that is more representative of the salary you would need in the civilian world to have the same quality of life) but it does not compare with the long term potential of civilian salaries.

If you want a few years of fun, good social, a bit of travel and limited opportunity to be shot at :eek: then maybe a few years in the military is for you. 'Butt snorkelling' is no longer a pre-requisit!!

[Hill Walker]

LM,

you will read a lot of opinion on here and some of that is completely uniformed...

Freudian slip, or is that what you meant?! I know plenty of uninformed uniformed...

HW

[London Mil]

Spilling woz nevre my strang pint. :eek:

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Vectorline,

Does your comment about 'crap mil controllers' include the dozens of ex-mil guys that have come over to NATS (and other ATS providers) and have trained and validated successfully? Because if it does, then if they've met the same standards as you have (presuming you are a valid civil ATCO), then that makes you crap too!

There are good and average controllers on both sides of the great civvy/mil divide (as you presumably see it) and I've been valid both sides. In my reasonably long experience, the crap ones (as you so nicely put it) on both sides are normally weeded out pretty quickly.

The bottom line is that there are more similarities between mil and civvy controllers than there are differences. Apart from the fact that one gets paid very well and the other gets a chance to get shot at!!

Download Dog,

"Butt snorkling"!! Thought we were back on the Jag Farewell thread for a mo.;)

Cenarthfalls,

Take the more reasoned and balanced replies that you have had and make your own mind up. There are good and bad points about both career paths - i've done both and enjoyed both thoroughly. Plenty has been written about it on Prune over the past few years. Check out those threads as well and good luck to you with your decision.

WJMcP

[skodasfinesthour]

I always avidly read pprune but never really post as I usually let everyone else have the bun fight.
Nevertheless, on this ocassion I feel that I had to post. I couldn't agree more with the comments of Wee Jock McPlop. As someone who has recently made the change from mil to civil ATC, after a fairly short career (SSC), I would agree that both disciplines have their advantages/disadvantages. After much thought, I would suggest that if you are after a long term career in ATC and wish financial reward and a setlled homelife then go civvie. If on the other hand, the deal is about being a leader and doing your bit for queen and country, then the RAF has it all. The only worry at the moment with the RAF is the C£$p way that the "senior management" of the ATC branch are steering the ship. :ugh: This I think, could damage the future outlook of what can be cracking controlling.

[Maple 01]

You mean some people have a life while they are Air Tragic?

[snapper41]

You're considering leaving before you've even joined??:confused:

[hobie]

You mean some people have a life while they are Air Tragic?

That sounds a very sad view .... :(

the Old fella did his time flying Spit's and after everyone shook hands, spent almost 20 years in ATC with the RAF .....

[Widger]

You need to make your mind up as to what your priorities are:

Your career will go one of three ways.

Civil -

Go to the college at Hurn, possibly get chopped
Go to SCACC/MACC(soon to be SCACC)/LACC or LTCC(Soon to be LACC) spend two to three years training, possibly get chopped. Validate then.
Come into work, spend 90 minutes on console, take your 20 minute break in Starbucks, 90 minutes on, Lunch in the restaurant, 90 minutes on......Speedbird 1234 descend FL250 be level FL250 by GIBSO....Continental 1, descend FL250 be level FL250 by GIBSO....Virgin 5 descend FL250 be level FL250 by GIBSO, Baby 2345 radar heading 080 degrees.....Speedbird 2345 descend FL250 be level FL250 by GIBSO, take a break in starbucks, 90 minutes on, go to car park, get in your M3/T5/Z4/CLK/RX7/AMG (delete as applicable) and go home. Same again tomorrow.

Join the RAF

Go to Cranwell, have your sense of humour removed and be brainwashed into the fact that two winged officers are the master race.
Go to Shawbury to learn ATC, possibly get chopped.
Go to a terminal unit, possibly get chopped, learn how to deal with F15s descending low level ,jets in the radar pattern, emergencies galore, visual circuits, get a suntan in Cyprus/Iraq/Afgahnistan (delete as appropriate), get cold in the Falklands/Scotland/Wales. Go to LACC/SCACC/LATCC for the best controlling of your life, wheeling and dealing. Change jobs every two years so you never get bored. Every year your salary wil go up. Go to the car park and get into your Vectra/Astra/Mondeo (delete as appropriate). Go home and listen to the sound of freedom as the squadron night fly over the top of your MQ.

Join the RN

Go to Dartmouth be astounded by the beauty of the place, get a sense of humour and understand totally that anyone with two wings is just a bloody WAFU, to be used and abused at the PWOs leisure. Go to Shawbury, possibly get chopped, Go to Culdrose, Cottesmore, Yeovilton. possibly get chopped, learn how to deal with F15s descending low level ,jets in the radar pattern, emergencies galore, visual circuits. Go to sea on a ship, visit foreign climes and host cocktail parties, kept awake at night by chains and engine noise, make lifelong friends, go back ashore Go to LACC/SCACC/LATCC for the best controlling of your life, wheeling and dealing. Change jobs every two years so you never get bored. Go to the car park and get into your Subaru/Audi/BMW/Mazda(delete as appropriate). Fight off the women who fall at your feet when they spy your fantastic Uniform. Be proud to be a defender of Britain's interests worldwide, join HMS Queen Elizabeth II as the SATCO on her inaugural world tour!


Your choice........................................

[Flies-like-a-chicken]

The Navy have planes now?!

[scottyhs]

I know i must admit i was confused by that too!

Although the remark about women falling at your feet also threw me off......

[AR1]

A or B

At least you will be reasonably certain your wife will be waiting when you get back home.
(On the basis that the three Navy chaps I know had thiers dissapear whilst on tour)

[ATCO Fred]

it was also stated that a similar concept should apply for Air Traffickers - but it would require initiative from within the branch to start the ball rolling.
Has anyone bothered yet? If not, you've only got yourselves to blame.
Thanks Beags - made me laugh. Initiative within Branch - do me a favour - that's why I left - some (not all) only serve themselves and their own careers. Mil ATC - on the slippery slope to oblivion.
That's my view and I'm sticking to it.
Fred.

[ATCO Fred]

I know of other ex-RAF controllers who have paid the whole lot out of their own pockets in order to pay their way through to civilian controlling.

Joining NATS is not a cert of getting through and you could end up anywhere - much the same as being in the RAF.
Me - I put my money where my mouth is and got choice - granted I'm earning less than I was in the MOB but I get to live at home and I know my earning potential will see me earning more than my RAF salary in the next 5 years.

Often one has to step back to then run forward!

FRED

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Beags/ATCO Fred,

Both spot on. In general , the ATC hierarchy only wish to further their own goals and career paths. Initiative and foresight are not words that readily spring to mind.:ugh: Small-minded and parochial are words that do. Think 'big picture'.

WJMcP

[Widger]

You see, I try and be positive about the Crabs, making them look punchy and a good career choice and all they can do is slate their own Service!


What can I do?

[nigegilb]

I did 6 years at SCATCC and Bz before PVRing. Offered Pilot training to come back in at age 25. Also sniffed at a forex dealing job in the City. US Bank had done some research and were intrigued by the longevity on display in the ATC world. They figured that the same aptitude/skills were required but dealers tended to burn out in their 30's whereas controllers went on happily into their 50's. They placed an ad in Flight inviting Air Traffickers to apply for the job.

There you go, another career option. Live the dream in RAF ATC for a few years then become a forex dealer and earn megabucks!

[ATCO Fred]

You see, I try and be positive about the Crabs, making them look punchy and a good career choice and all they can do is slate their own Service!
What can I do?
Widger - you're lucky - your GATCO is a fine man but don't forget, the RAF is the Service Lead for ATC policy so either way - it'll get you one day.
:*
Fred

[Widger]

ATCO Fred,

"RAF is the Service lead"

Not yet you ain't!

Remember the QFE/QNH debacle?

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Widger,

QFE/QNH.:eek: Just don't go there - you know it will all end in tears.:{ Can of worms and all that.... It's like the luvvies of the acting word mentioning the 'M' word.

WJMcP

[Number2]

Sadly VL's opinion of ex-mil controllers is prevalent throughout NATS. Even the students on my course at Hurn, with all their extensive ATC experience, would have a laugh at the military's expense.

Then again, I wonder how many of them are still working for NATS?!

[Widger]

Number 2,
That is a very poor generalisation. You are probably talking about a significant proportion of the NATS population there! (Do you include yourself?) Or have I got the wrong gist of your comment? There are good and bad in every profession, I know some awful doctors! I know some very good ex mil and some poor. I know some poor civil controllers but I don't tar the whole organisation by the actions of the few.

The UKFIR/UIR is a very unique environment, probably in the world. No-where eslse will you get the interaction in such congested airspace and it works very well because of the actions of some very hard working and highly competent cotrollers on both sides of the shop.

There are those who change jobs in any profession, sometimes for financial reasons, sometimes for domestic reasons, sometimes because they have burnt bridges..................takes all sorts.......

[Rickford]

Of course you could do something completely different like 30 years in the RAF Air Trafficking. PVR at 50 and blow your gratuity in flying training and become a commercial pilot. Worked for me.
On a serious note I would concentrate on actually getting an offer of a place in the RAF. If accepted and you get through the courses then enjoy life but plan to start working towards your civil licences at least 2 years before you finish your service/PVR. Nearly everything you want is available from the AIS or CAA web sites. Did my civil licences (Twr/App) while I was at LATCC (yes that long ago ) but never got around to leaving to use them (well I could see what life was like on the otherside at LATCC and you must never underestimate the simple pleasure of knowing what colour shirt to put on in the morning :). )

[chevvron]

To go way back to Trap Ones reply; NATS don't issue licences but the CAA does. NATS might give you an APC (assessment of prior competence) to decide how much training you need to pass an 'approved course', but you'll still have to do a course somewhere even if you don't go to NATS. The CAA will only grant a licence if you have passed the approved coures(s), trained for a minimum period on live traffic and passed an examination of competency.

[The Scottish Fg Off]

I concur with Rickford, play each side for what you can and see who offers what, both recruiting systems are fairly thorough.

Then decide if you like money and never giving an ac RAS, or

Prefer clock-watching and prostituting yourself to the whims of a madman every three years under the guise of "career management".

(with the latter there are some very good parties though!)

[PlasticCabDriver]

There you go, another career option. Live the dream in RAF ATC for a few years then become a forex dealer and earn megabucks!

Wages are good on the crap Aussie lager desks then?

[skodasfinesthour]

In reply to Maple 01,

Quote: "You mean some people have a life while they are Air Tragic?"


Go back to your dark room and study some pictures or whatever you do....:D Come and join the real world when your ready..

[Maple 01]

harsh but fair, as ever!