Aerobatics Course and beyond

[PPL152]

Hello there

I'd like to know more about getting into the aerobatic side of private flying... like requirements to do the course, how u can participate in air shows, etc etc.

Any info as usual, much appreciated!

regards

[Pitts2112]

Welcome to a non-return valve in the pipeline of flying. Once you turn yourself upside down or point your face at the ground on purpose, most everything else in flying will seem tame and verge on the pointless.

First off, there is no "course", regardless of what the AOPA may tell you. Aerobatics is a lifetime of learning and trying stuff out. Getting some training is defintely the way to go but there's no aerobatic rating or sign-off or anything like that. It's mostly governed by common sense and the limits of you and the airoplane you're flying. You can take an AOPA course if you want, but it doesn't actually mean anything other than a structured approach to learning the basics.

To fly in airshows you need to have a Display Authorisation (in the UK anyway), issued by the CAA after doing an oral and flying test with a Display Authorisation Examiner. But if you haven't really flown any aerobatics yet, I'd suggest that's a goal for a year or two away yet.

Get yourself hooked up with an aerobatic instructor like Alan Cassidy at White Waltham or the folks at Sibson in G-WREN and find out what it's all about. I'd suggest if you're serious, aim to compete in Standard level next year as a real learning experience and a way to give your flying focus and purpose. I did that and it helped immensely in learning how to fly in a particular bit of airspace and make it look good to the ground.

Drop me a PM if you want to discuss further. I'm always willing to help out a n enthusiast!

Cheers,
Pitts2112

[waldopepper42]

"non-return valve in the pipeline of flying" - ain't that the truth!

Also, if you're based a little further north, you may want to visit Cas Smith at Full Sutton.

[Cricket23]

...and if based around Surrey I'd recommend Simon Janvrin at Cubair (Redhill).

C23

[foxmoth]

First off, there is no "course",
The AOPA Aeros course may not be compulsory for aeros, but it is a course in the same way as the PPL is a course - it gives you a basis to start from, what there is not in the UK is an Aerobatics rating. I would agree that it is not essential to do the AOPA course but you should do some sort of course, the important things to learn are how to sort it out if you make a mess of it, so spinning and unusual attitude training are IMHO must do's. Then learn the basic maneuvers from an instructor who knows what he is doing and go on from there. I can recommend UH - OK I am biased, but I think there are a number of other forumites who would say the same, and they usually run a couple of beginners comps as well which will give you a good starting point.:ok:

[Zulu Alpha]

Depending on where you are based, give one of the people on this website a call and they can give you some unbiased free advice.
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/training/buddy_main.htm
The rest of the website might be of interest to you.

BTW, Aerobatics always seems expensive by the hour, but you fly much shorter flights than point to point flying so the actual £s are not that much more. For example my standard flight is 0.4-0.5 hr
Enjoy it, its very addictive and enjoyable and there is always something more to learn.

[Pitts2112]

Quote:
First off, there is no "course",
The AOPA Aeros course may not be compulsory for aeros,
True enough. Well caught.
What I meant was that there is no requirement to do a course before doing any aeros except common sense dicatates it, and that an aerobatics course doesn't qualify you for anything. I get the impression sometimes that people think flying aerobatics requires some kind of "permission" from the CAA and I was trying to dispel that myth. I also think that many people are unclear about the difference between flying aerobatics for personal fun and flying displays at airshows.
Cheers,
Pitts2112

[PPL152]

Ey mates
Thanks for your replies!

so how about joining competitions, such as airshows, and air racing such as Aero Gp or red bull air races?

In that case, do u pay for all fuel, etc etc yourself? Or can u get a sponsorship?

How does it go?

Regards

[ronnie3585]

Events like Aero GP and Redbull Air Race are strictly invitation only, cream of the crop stuff. Most if not all of the redbull air race guys are sponsored and are paid per race.

[FullyFlapped]

Are there any rules governing where you can fly aeros, other than the usual airspace/land clear/rule 5 malarky ?

Could I (if suitably practiced of course) just decide to entertain the locals with a dazzling display of derring-do, or are things a little more complex than that ?

FF :ok:

[ronnie3585]

You could dazzel the locals once you're above 500 and 1500 over a built up area. To display properly you would need a Display Authorisation issued by the CAA after doing an oral and flying test with a Display Authorisation Examiner. There are different levels then if you decide to compete, they are; beginner, intermediate, advanced and unlimited. To the best of my knowledge an unlimited pilot can operate as low as he wants.

[Pitts2112]

Well, there're three things you've mentioned here: competitions, airshows, and Aero GP/Red Bull, which aren't really air races but more like travelling airshow acts.

Competitions. Have a look at the British Aerobatic Association website and it'll explain all you need to know about it. It's entirely at your own expense and initiative, but there are instructors, such as Alan Cassidy, who will train you and then let you rent his aircraft for a competition. There are four classes, Beginner, Standard, Intermediate, Advanced, and Unlimited, but Beginner doesn't really count (hence 4 real classes, even though I mentioned 5). Each class has a catalogue of maneuvers that are allowed/required in each and the competitions will be based on sequences made up of those figures. In each competition event there is a known sequence (published the previous autumn and used at each event all year), plus at least one unknown sequence published at an event. It's good fun, and a good way to give focus and purpose to your flying. Highly recommended as it puts you in touch with real expertise, but the competition side of it can be a bit naff at Standard as the rules are really kind of lax.

Airshows. Airshows are highly regulated and controlled by the CAA. Every pilot flying in one has been issued a Display Authorisation by the CAA for permission to fly in front of crowds. DAs are issued at various levels of difficulty and altitude based on your experience. First time out expect approval no higher than a Standard cataloge DA and no lower than 500 feet above the display line. As for costs, there really isn't much in the way of sponsorship except in the Unlimited category and that's for serious pilots with years of experience and seriously hot machines. As a PPL you are allowed to charge a nominal fee for displays that is directly related to defraying your costs to train and perform a display, usually around £300 or so per event, but that will unlikely really cover much of your costs. Expect to pay in one way or another for the privilege of displaying.

Aero GP/RedBull are both more like travelling airshow acts a bit like Formula 1. You're invited to join and the flying is pretty strictly controlled. I think the "competition" element is genuine, but its a pre-selected field of pilots invited to participate and they're usually national or world aerobatic champions or highly experienced airshow pilots who've been around for years and are well known.

The way to start it all is as mentioned in earlier posts. Find an instructor as near to you as possible and get into the details with them. If you're serious aobut it, competition at Standard Level is the way to start and see where you want to go once you've got a year or two of that under your belt.

Whatever you do, have fun, be safe, and be an ambassador for aviation.

Cheers,
Pitts2112

[Gipsy Queen]

Heed Pitts2112's warning - entry into the world of aerobatics is a one-way ticket to a highly addictive pastime!

Since the demise of the ab initio type trainer and the adoption of the largely universal spamcan specifically designed to avoid anything remotely unstable, opportunities to sample anything much beyond straight and level are few. There was a time when when Tiger Moths and Chipmunks were freely available and spin recovery was part of the PPL syllabus.Things have changed.

I am an old Nepean Bishop pupil and cut my teeth on an inverted system Stampe. But where do you find one of those these days? I moved on to Jungmeister, Arrow Active, S2, Z526 and others but these have gone too. Now, the Victa Air Tourer was a good starter aircraft with a modest negative capability but I suspect they have become pots and pans as well.

Frankly, I think you would be wasting your money buying hours in something like a C150. It will teach you absolutely nothing; certainly not the precision and discipline needed for safe and effective aerobatic flying - and you won't get many Aresti symbols on your sheet either! My advice, supposing the distance from where you are to be acceptable, would be to approach the Tiger Club (no longer at Redhill I understand). Their Macauley Trophy was something I enjoyed immensely and they used to have first class instructional people. However, there was a minimum hours requirement for membership.

Good luck. But be careful you don't start something you can't stop. It's heady stuff!

[Zulu Alpha]

Don't expect to compete in the Red Bull or even do displays initially. This is a bit like expecting to drive F2 immediately.

You need to get a few hours training to start, then you can assess how to get to the required standard.

It will probably take more training than you think, but you'll have great fun along the way. There are lots of interesting things to do as you gain experience. Aerobatic competitions (Loop do an excellent introductory competition), aerobatic display flying, Instructing others, etc etc.

I suggest just getting started with a few aerobatic training flights somewhere near you.

You didn't say how many hours you have or where you are based.

[PPL152]

Well, since I did not say where I'm based etc, your posts could have been misleading, but still relevant I guess!

I am from Malta and have a PPL with about 90 flying hours logged!

[Canuck Spin]

Just to add a slight twist to this thread...

If looking to start on this pathway to competitions etc. (Have been flying aeros for a few years for fun now but looking to step up the quality etc. and focus things) are there any particular aircraft types people can recommend for a standard level entry?

I know alot will be down to personal preference but I do have to hire the aircraft at present and wondering whether all entries are made in pitts etc. or whether e.g. T67, bulldogs and chipmunks are all involved and active at this level?

Thanks!
CS

[Pitts2112]

Canuck,

You'll be fine in all those types mentioned at Standard, though each has it's pros and cons. The Slingsby, though I've never flown it, is known to have a pedestrian roll rate due to the long wing and dihedral but, if flown properly, should be fine at Standard level. Citabrias and Decathalons are also perfectly adequate. Don't waste your time in Cessnas, though, as they just aren't really designed for that level of work.

Personally, I think the Bulldog is a lot of airoplane for what it is, being heavy and full of switches and stuff. You find the Pitts to be very common in Standard because it's perfectly suited to it and is easy to take to higher levels of competition, whereas the other types you mentioned probably wouldn't realy get very far in Intermediate, and you can forget Advanced.

Hope that helps.

PPL152,
I don't know what the regs or competition opportunities are like in Malta, but the British Aerobatic Association runs along internationally standard lines so much of what's on there would still apply if that's what you're looking to do.

Cheers,
Pitts2112

[PPL152]

Actually there there's no aerobatic flying school, not even an aircraft capable of performing aerobatics, so someone from here must definitely travel abroad for this purpose, that's why I stated that this thread is still relevant for me!

[BackPacker]

PPL152, mind that *any* aircraft has certain limitations and *any* aircraft can fly manouvres that can be consided aerobatics within these limitations. A wingover, as an example, is generally considered an aerobatics manouvre, but it should be flyable in any aircraft from a C-150 to a B-747 because the g forces involved are very low. Although I admit you would not stand a chance, not even in the "Beginners" class if you try to fly aerobatics as a competition sport in a C-172 or a B-747. But my point is, if you look around, there should be a few aircraft in your area in which you can fly a few basic aerobatic manouvres. The line between a non-aerobatic aircraft and an aerobatic aircraft is very fuzzy and some aerobatics-capable machines are surprisingly good tourers or trainers as well, so you might not recognise them readily as aerobatics machines.

I, for one, was very surprised to see that the kit-build Europa was able to do most standard aerobatic manouvres, including rolls, loops, stall turns and such.

Also, I have not seen it yet in this thread, but did you buy David Robson's "Aerobatics Principles and Practice" book? Great introduction to aerobatics.

[BackPacker]

FullyFlapped, Ronny3585 is *wrong*. At least, in the UK, the following applies:

"No aerobatic manoeuvre may be flown over the congested area of any city, town or settlement. Aerobatics may only be carried out in controlled airspace with the permission of the appropriate ATC unit. 'Aerobatic manoeuvres' include spins, loops, rolls, stall turns, inverted flight and similar manoeuvres."

That's in addition to rule 5. And common sense obviously dictates a minimum height far above the rule 5 heights.

The military, AFAIK, uses 3000 feet as minimum height. If you get below that and have not recovered your manoeuvre, you bail out and get a new airplane. That last bit may be a bit extreme for a private pilot, but using 3000 feet as your minimum height anyway makes sense. If any manoeuvre ends up below that height, declare "game over". Stop your routine and go home.

[Gipsy Queen]

BackPacker,
Apologies for the pedantry but whilst a C150 might do well enough in a wingover, the same manouevre in a B747 probably would snap off the engine pylons!

One has to be careful about airframes described as "aerobatic". It is a rather meaningless term. For example, the excellent little Airtourer mentioned in my last post was claimed to be fully aerobatic within the placarded limits but I managed to wrinkle some tin in a positive hammerhead. Nobody said it would not go backwards!


Pitts2112,
I would argue against the suitability of any high-wing aircraft. And high aspect ratios don't help either, at least in competition stuff, but can be beautiful to watch. A well executed display in an RF5, for example, can be very balletic.



PPL152, Bongu.
Hal Far has gone. So has that old strip near Xewkija. Luqa has virtually no GA facilities as far as I know. You are rather on your own I suspect.

Have you thought of something in Sicilia or elsewhere in Italy? It certainly is the closest place you are likely to find what you are looking for.

Narak.

[hugh flung_dung]

BackPacker:
Your recent post is capable of misinterpretation and could mislead the inexperienced. For the avoidance of doubt, an aircraft is either approved for aerobatics or not, and the approved manouevres and limitations will be listed in the flight manual. It's not just a matter of the structural strength.

No responsible pilot would advocate aerobatics in an aircraft that was not so approved; I'm sure this is just down to choice of words.

HFD

[BackPacker]

Hung, that's exactly my point. There's no hard dividing line between aerobatic and non-aerobatic aircraft. Every aircraft has its limitations (listed in the POH) and some aircraft allow more and more aggressive aerobatic manoeuvres to be flown with them than others.

If you're just getting into aerobatics, like PPL152 is, then it should not be that hard to find an aircraft that allows simple, basic aerobatics (as described in the POH). Once you go into competitions, displays, Red Bull air races, whatever, you are going to need something specifically designed for the purpose. An Extra 300 or something.

And even an Extra 300 has limits that need to be observed. Although in most cases, your body will hit its personal limits before the Extra 300 hits its.

[fabiensf]

PPL152, have you checked with EPA? They're supposed to have(or are getting) a basic aerobatic Zlin Z 142.

[PPL152]

Hey fabiensf
Haven't checked with them but been hearing about the Zlin coming for quite some time now. I actually have an appointment with them in a few weeks so I might ask them as well.

Do u know anything about it by any chance?

[fabiensf]

Nope don't have any info and no sign of a Zlin on apron1 so beats me! May I ask if your appointment is concerning ATPL distance learning?

[PPL152]

Yes. Still to finalise the date etc, however I'm more interested in doing some kind of aerobatics rather than ATPL at the moment.

[mike172]

Seeing as most airspace in the UK seems to be class A, how do you perform aerobatics under VFR? I can't imagine you'd have to go to a class D CTR or CTA to do aeros.

Am I just being really stupid and missing out on something here:confused:

[Canuck Spin]

Hi Mike,

Not too sure where you're getting that information from but the minority of airspace (outside of airways etc. obviously) is class A - in fact only around very intense areas like Heathrow.

There are plenty of areas of uncontrolled airspace for aeros and GH all over the country even if it does mean a slight transit under a bit of controlled airspace or through it to get there.

Hope that clears things up a little.
CS

[mike172]

Sorry, I'm such an idiot, I just realised my mistake! When BackPacker said that you can only fly in controlled airspace with the permission of the ATSU I thought that meant you can only fly aerobatics in controlled airspace! Obviously (or maybe not it would seem!) it means you can fly in controlled airspace if you wish but you must first gain permission from the ATSU in charge.

Thanks Canuck!