Too Fat to Fight!

[SaddamsLoveChild]

At a briefing this week, the latest fitness programme was unveiled to an enthralled audience.

It includes:

Fitness tests TWICE a year :eek:.

Increased fitness levels :D.

Mandatory 3 x 50 minute sports period per week :eek:.

Personally I am all in favour of conducting fitness trg in work time and having fit for purpose personnel but how the hell are we going to be able to facilitate this when we are 'running hot'. Do we restrict tasking/ops for sport, do we bring back sports afternoons, do we bring people in early, send them home late and if it is considered so important why were such low standards brought in originally to allow us to get into such a state.

On a station of 1000 personnel, working on 3 x 50 min sports period, with 30 mins changing and travel time the station will lose 4 hrs per person per week, totalling 4000 man hrs or 166 man days per week. Where will the additional PTI resources come from and is there enough Gym space?

The headquarters are where people have the time, but their statistics are the worst of all the stations sheer Hypocrisy.

see ya down the gym......................:ok:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

166 man hours per week equates to.... 4 extra worker bees... easily solved eh?



Oh no... wait....

[BEagle]

Well, that sounds like a well thought out retention measure!

How long before the RAF consists of just PTIs and WSOs?

On the day that the civil 'Open Skies' announcement has effectively given the green light to increased transatlantic competition and the airlines are looking even harder for pilots, I guess this will help a few who were considering leaving to make up their minds?

[DME MILOS]

It'll soon stop when everyone is injured from their tri-weekly sport and can not deploy any more...:)

[Wader2]

Saddam,someone is running their own agenda.

What the CinC Bulletin of Jan 07 actually said was:

"development of a culture wherein (sic) every individual recognises the need to undertake 3 periods of physical activity per week."

No time, no compulsion.

"there is no one-size fits all solution"

No fixed plan then.

"CAS will simply expect station commanders to ensure that their people are fit."

"Stn cdrs in turn . .. " Ah! now we get to it.

"flt cdrs achieve their goal"

"Physical Training Leaders - non-specialists, trained and authorised by PEd staffs to lead basic fitness sessions"

So, from individual recognition we move smoothly to a PTL enabler.

New, higher standards (for most age/gender categories), relevant to a modern fighting service, ready to endure the rigors of operational detachments and linked directly to levels of health risk become effective on 1 Jul 07.

The tests are still being developed as the operational fitness test "proved unworkable."

Clearly one of the sessions should take place at 5 on a Friday to endure the rigors of operational detachments and linked directly to levels of health risk :}

Where will the additional PTI resources come from and is there enough Gym space?

See my remarks about PTLs, who said anythng about more PTIs and Gym space. Who wants to be a PTL?

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Wader, no personal agenda here, just amazed that it is going to fall to Flt Cdrs to ensure their troops are given time to conduct 3 periods of trg, mandated to be 50 mins (the big man said it). What incentive is there to get everyone through versus the incentive of not achieving my operational support task. My troops are already working extended hrs in support of the front line and some eating lunch at their desks.

I believe, and I am willng to be corrected in my belief that a Stn Cdr would rather have a question asked about his fitness stats rather than why he did not achieve his mandated flying hrs or put the right aircraft in the right place at the right time, ergo his troops are fit to the stations task.

PTL's = litigation nightmare and an additional burden on an individual and is infact IMHO an abrogation of the PT branches responsibility. It is obvious that if the Gym staffs and PTL's are to get everyone through then the question has to be asked, are the facilities up to the challenge?

I dont want to deploy with unfit people but there has to be a realistic target and like the OFT I dont think this is it. You tell me of one person who has been returned from an OOA becasue they were unfit physically for the task.:}

[Wader2]

SLC, on your last point, I am aware of someone TU as unfit.

On the rest of your points, absolutely true. You will have tests to see if you are fit to take the test. The fitness, if mandated, can become boring.

If you are a natural jockstrapper will you be able to do your own thing, running every lunchtime, or will you have to carry sandbags like everyone else?

Will your Saturday football count or will you have to do it on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday too?

Will you start work at 7 instead of 8?

If team sport is allowed will you be made to play football when you prefer rugby, larcrosse or hockey?

Is cricket sufficiently physical?

and so on and so on.

PS, my nominated fitness coordinator, soon to be PTL, when he gets back off leave, has been unfit fitness test for over a year.:}

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Was the returnee shot or promoted?

Yr PS is a good sign and may in fact give the lardy the kick in the proverbial he/she needs. Wont have much credibility though.

[Wader2]

SLC, not sure as not my unit but it was my SinL, equal rank, who did the deed - took no prisoners - pretty sure promotion would not have followed but who knows.

As for my lardy, he will remain unfit for the next 4 years - if he has anything to do with it and I shall be long gone. He goes OOA in July.

PS, hot in summer, cold/wet in winter and no sand.

[startermotor]

When i started doing the fitness tests about '96. I was at the age where I had to achieve a level of 7.3 on the bleep test. When i reached 35 in '97 the level went up, I therefore kept on at 7.3. At 40 I dropped to 6.3 (very easy i know) at 45 the level remained at 6.3. Now if i read the new levels correctly , I have to reach between 8.3 and 8.9 to be considered fit. The lower of these two levels (8.3) is higher than the level I had to attain 11 years ago.
I should, I know keep myself fit, but constant detachments where we are working up to 18 hours a day flying and servicing aircraft means no time to do exercise, when at home I want to spend time with my family.
Even compulsary PT at work for the few weeks in between det's would not help much.
Anyway rant over, the bar is open

[green granite]

http://www.rompersgreen.com/images/clips02.gif


:E:E

[dallas]

Well, that sounds like a well thought out retention measure!
I really don't think retention bothers anyone senior nowadays, certainly not in view of their take-take policies. We have no money for anything, let alone good stuff, and now we're expected to give-up 3 x 50mins a week to the Service that only just manages to pay us.

I should, I know keep myself fit, but constant detachments where we are working up to 18 hours a day flying and servicing aircraft means no time to do exercise, when at home I want to spend time with my family.
Well your ACR is going to suffer in the 'Loyalty' box isn't it? :hmm:

Embrace change! That's what I'm doing - I'm changing careers!

[formertonkaplum]

I agree. Most times I have reached a birthday and the levels have dropped, they have gone up again before I took the test again.

Now, if these new levels are again to be increased, I will be doing a level I have not had to acheive in almost 15 years!

These levels were devised and the test developed by Boffins at Loughborough Uni. The RAF Based its intial levels on the findings and results of the Boffintry. The expected amount of failure was now acheived and so the PTI types (Don't get me started on those Stretcher-Bearers), put forward plans to hike the levels as they now knew better than Boffins !!

The vast majority of Police Forces use the same test as an entry requirement only, with no annual testing. Most constabularies (and I know someone will post saying such and such a constabulary is this and that), but most have a test requirement of 5-10! Thats It.

Whilst I do think there is a place for fitness to a prescribed standard and there is a need for evaluation of this, we are currently going massively in the wrong direction. As so many are saying, we have minimal time within the working day now to acheive, let alone factor in 3 x 50 Mins a week in the gym.

With additional threats of of extended working days to ensure attendance at mandated PT sessions, Remedial PT for persons who fail to attain the new levels and ultimate administrative action should an individual fail to achieve these new levels after a series of attempts; this will do nothing but turn more people away from the service at a time when we are Haemorrhaging personnel.

I believe (again, please prove me wrong someone), that QR's state you are to maintain a level of fitness sufficient to be able to perform your duties. If someone is capable of serving OOA, they are therfore fit, regardless of what any Bleep test and person in shorts three sizes to tight says. Exceptions exsist and we all look and wonder at how certain individuals manage to walk let alone climb stairs; but they are not the norm. The vast majority of personnel in the RAF are fully capable of performing their duties. They must therefore, BE FIT.

Finally, I think it will be a brave person who terminates the career of someone on the basis of failure to acheive a level on the Beep test. As the youngest Female level is easier than all but the top Male levels, there is grounds for sexual discrimination. Additionally, in a soceity now which does not allow Ageism, we have age related levels.

Mr Gilbert Blades and partners will be getting increased custom.....

[Arthur's Wizard]

Only Crabs could make this much fuss about basic levels of fitness :rolleyes:

Fitter people take less sick days. Fact.

Fitter people have better levels of concentration. Fact.

Fitter people aclimatise quicker. Fact.

Fitter people can maintain higher levels of activety, for longer in extremes of temperature. Fact.

People who maintain good levels of fitness are more likely to eat a healthier diet. Fact.

People who maintain good levels of fitness are less likely to smoke. Fact.

Keeping fit promotes self discipline. (therein lies the problem, perhaps!)

Etc, etc, etc.....

There are so many reasons why good physical fitness is beneficial to any employer, but especially a military one. Not only that, but it's being suggested that you do it in the firms time. I could understand the gripes if you were expected to do it in your own couch/playstation/bar/fast food time, but you're not. :ugh:

Anyway, startermotor said that over his career, he has had to achieve between 6.3 and 8.3 on the Beep Test. I mean, come on, how fit do you need to be to achieve that! It's not like you're being asked to get to an unreasonable level now is it?

[Grabbers]

Well said Arthur. I am RAF and am constantly embarrassed by the state of 80% of my comrades. A lack of self-discipline IS the underlying problem. No excuses.

[startermotor]

I agree it is not an unreasonable level to achieve. My point is that the levels have just shot up in one fell swoop. gone down or stayed constant for 11 years then up. No compulsary PT or time to carry out any training.

[snapper41]

Startermotor;

Hear bl**dy Hear; couldn't agree more with your sentiments.

[airborne_artist]

Mrs AA was diagnosed with MS twenty years ago. She's not got the worst kind of MS, but her right side is permanently damaged.

She goes to the gym 4x/week. If she can do it, so can everyone serving in the Armed Forces, if the facilities are on site and available for use, and they have time in the day to do it.

[Pontius Navigator]

A_A, sympathies with Mrs AA but the crucial bit in your message was and they have time in the day to do it..

True there will be many moaners who could, without much effort, make time. There was a time when lineys, between waves, would play volley-ball. It took no space and could be done at the drop of a ball and they could return to work in moments.

With leaning this sort of 'free-time' would have been redeployed to some other more useful employment. As 'free-time' was absorbed establishments were cut. OOA then impinges on manning too so what is left is stretched.

The culture change that is required is to raise the importance of fitness above the diversions such as the flypro.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Anybody would think being fit is a bad thing. It's part of your job spec to be fit, get on with it.

[N Joe]

Chance of extra PTIs to run this is obviously nil. So, cancel 2 of the 3 lunchtime circuits sessions to offset the extra workload required to provide the compulsary sessions. Net result - a reduction in the total amount of phys undertaken by unit personnel.

Would be funny if it weren't true.

N Joe

[ericferret]

Apparently the army is looking at longer and tougher assault courses to improve fitness levels.

There was a delegation from the airforce at the British Synchronised Swimming championships recently so possibly they are looking at a different method of achieving the end result!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Joe, re read the posts above. It will be run by PTLs who are trained by PTIs.

Who are these PTLs going to be? Young fit SAC Jockstrap or crusty old C/T Beergut? Or may be Flt Lt PA Spine?

[toddbabe]

PTL will be a good secondary duty sign me up, personally don't think fitness standards are anywhere near high enough and people would do well to embrace the new initiative.
People are worried about lost man hours from going to the gym instead of working! from the many sections i have seen and worked in over the years there is plenty of time to get to the gym! why are all the t bars full of pool wizards and table footie geniuses?
And you don't have to worry about there not being enough space or equipment in the gym, those great big grass things outside your crew rooms called airfields have miles and miles of lovely roads surrounding them that you can use free of charge all year round!

[Sentry Agitator]

I have to say I was a bit concerned when I heard that the test was changing as I certainly don't get time during my 'normal' working day to get to the gym.

BUT..if the firm are actually going to give me 3 sessions a week to get some phyz in then bring it on! The SLJs can shove where the sun don't shine.....until someone decides they need that all important job done by eh... um... yesterday.

I can't even get time to have lunch away from my desk most days for having to deal with niff naff and triv! So this will be a great distraction.

I hadn't been so fit for about 18 years until I went through the college of knowledge in '05 and all that hard work from a great bunch of PTIs got me in really good shape.....since returning to the line it's all gone a bit Pete Tong! so I welcome the idea......I just hope it works for all of us!

SA :ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

At Odious someone in handbrake house has quoted 'QR1051' as the authority for squadron commaders to instigate compulsory PT sessions. It doesn't appear that 'those in charge' have even checked the Queens Regulations for the RAF though as 'QR1051' I believe refers to a charge procedure (not that I've ever needed to refer to QR's whilst awaiting a charge of course ;) ).

[Daf Hucker]

Oh how Holy some of you are! If you enjoy fizz then it isn't an onerous task, if fizz isn't your bag then it is a real drag. Even when I was fit as the proverbial butcher's dog I still hated it.

The difference in levels between the sexes is laughable and has been successfully challenged in the civil police forces.

If we are supposed to be fit for the task than surely there should be a standard requirement, i.e. ALL personnel should reach the standard, regardless of sex or age! Alternatively, we should be fit for role, again regardless of sex or age. A Grunt needs to be fitter than an Air Trafficer because he plans to spend much of his time in the field running around.

[Pontius Navigator]

Good on you Todd. Quite right fit to fight is a good mantra and was coined in the 70s.

As the PTL however reflect for a moment the additional work you will have as 'sports monitor.' Will you have an attendance register? Will you check them all out and check them all in? Will you have time to do your own jockstrapping?

It works if there are adequate sanctions to ensure the whole squad turns out on time with late comers being made to repeat the next day.

Will your squad's 3 times per week be 3 sessions or will the sessions spread to 5 days and twice per day?

It would be dead easy if the Army squad running system was used every day but RAF working tends not to work like that. Certainly the Supply or Shed tea bar is a good place to start but you won't find the same in ATC or Ops or the Sqn.

You can't get in to PSF now? Try when they are all out in their sports bras.

[Pontius Navigator]

Daf Hucker, 'fit for the job'.

We had an AEOp, probably about 18 stone. He could do a mile and a half every 3 months in about 25-30 minutes.

He could also get himself and his nav bag into the aircraft, sit in his seat for 9 hours, monitor the ESM and MAD, and make a round of tea (long lead from his seat) all the while being 'fit for purpose'.

Had we ditched he would probably have survived at least twice as long as the racing snakes, say 15 minutes, as we didn't have immersion suits then.

If it was decreed that he had to do the b:mad: p test then we would have lost a valuable sensor operator either through heart attack or admin discharge.

The acid test is fit for purpose. If it be decreed that an aircraft engineer has to be able to drop tools, pick up a weapon, and advance to contact then he should be trained for the whole package.

If an accounts clerk is to be expected to lock the safe, pack away the pencils, and muster everyone in a shelter then that is what she should be trained for.

If both are required to fill sandbags and build the shelter then ditto.

Without a defined task exactly what level of fitness are they aiming for? Body strength, endurance or burst? You can't have them all.

[Daf Hucker]

I remember said AEOp well (now teaching EW in Sleaford). He exemplifies my case entirely, an excellent operator lost to the RAF due to an un- or at least an ill-defined fitness requirement. I haven't seen any explantion as to the dramatic increase in the required fitness levels, it would appear to have been made at the whim of some faceless individual.

I have flown in every major operation the RAF has been involved in over the last 30 years and have never had my fitness to operate questioned, now I find that I have to achieve levels that I haven't been asked to get anywhere near for a considerable time.... 8 years ago I was on a bike, now I am being asked to run as fast/far as a 17 year old girl, if I could do that I would have a considerably younger wife!

[Pontius Navigator]

Daf Hucker, I doubt you knew him unless it is the one who used to commute weekends Kinloss to St Mawgan where he helped out in his wife's guest house.

As a Master I bet he never went near th ecollege of knowledge but there were many like him.

Brilliant professionals making the kit sing.

[Sentry Agitator]

DH

I'm sure that must be a misprint....older fellas run as fast? surely they mean chase after the 17 year old girls?

Now there is an incentive!

SA ;)

[Daf Hucker]

Pontius,

I meant Sleaford rather than Sleaford Tech, but it may well be a different individual, in which case the RAF has lost 2 very good operators, trained at great expense and providing excellent service....just a little on the big side!:}

[L1A2 discharged]

.. or otherwise a different use of 3 'F's.

3 x 50 minutes fitness sessions .. to be .. encouraged ... non-participation will be reflected in the new, all singing JPA (tri-service:eek: ) assessment / confidential reporting system as a negative. A negative will mean that you don't get a pay level increase if one is due.

when will it be taken on board that, by and large, the RAF is not an infantry supply unit. If we are required to achieve infantry standards at fighting, running, digging holes etc we need the training and the training time - something difficult to reconcile with 3 x 4 ships from 7 frames with role changes between. :ugh:

Fit to do your job, worldwide, should be the minimum standard.

My job is now centred on resettlement and eating doughnuts.:ok:

[edwardspannerhands]

Quote: "These levels were devised and the test developed by Boffins at Loughborough Uni."


And then ignored by Buffoons at HQPTC.:ugh:

[Roland Pulfrew]

I could understand the gripes if you were expected to do it in your own couch/playstation/bar/fast food time, but you're not.
Actually Arfur you are talking bo**ocks. THE message from AMP was not what is should have been. Taking fitness in work time WAS NOT MANDATED. Sadly it was down to unit commanders, but if unit commanders mandate it, it cannot be viewed as POLICY. Therefore when you do the required manpower calculations you cannot use MANDATED fitness sessions as contributing to the over all workload. Why? Well it's blatently obvious. If you mandate fitness in Her Majesty's Flying Club you accept that you need more personnel to achieve the task. If you need more personnel then you cannot achieve the bl**dy idiotic manpower ceiling of 40873 (although I may have that wrong by a few, was it 40674?). Mandated fitness (quite correct) equals more diversion which equals more manpower which Errrrr doesn't meet the target so lets ignore the fact we want people to be fitter but don't want them to do it in work time! :ugh: :ugh:

[Toxteth O'Grady]

There was a delegation from the airforce at the British Synchronised Swimming championships recently

Maybe it's a new savings measure - The Royal Air Force Red Speedos! :}

:cool:

TOG

[Maple 01]

Every time the jockstrappers start off with this bull they avoid the question why different levels for the girls and boys if it's all about operational requirements? Surely the ability to rough-it out in the field or run away bravely requires the same standards for all?

Case in point, young Maple pre Nazi fitness test, lugs LMG around like a good-un during tacevals, Maple's babeluscious friend, same age, complains the SMG is too heavy and can't keep up. Who is operationally fitter?

Fast forward 20 years, Maple can still outrun said girly, even if lumbered with GPMG but fails fitness test at level x for 38 YO bloke. Madam is only required to pass FT at level x-y so is fitter according to decidedly non-op PTIs, but now has problems shifting self, SA80 and kit more than a few yards.

Apart from the obvious charms of young lady who would you rather have in your improvised fire team?

Now to answer a few points from a wannabee PTI

Fitter people take less sick days. Fact.

Dunno what section/flight you worked in, it was always the sports freaks off sick with a strained metatarsal or some other nonce excuse

Fitter people have better levels of concentration. Fact.

Proof? Or propaganda?

Fitter people acclimatise quicker. Fact.

So that's why sportsmen need to high altitude train to play netball on Mt Kilimanjaro but the RAF are happy there is no requirement for same when dispatching unfortunates to Kandahar?

Fitter people can maintain higher levels of activity, for longer in extremes of temperature. Fact.

Er, except racing snakes are the first to fall out in extreme cold so NOT FACT


People who maintain good levels of fitness are more likely to eat a healthier diet. Fact.

Woopie doo, spot the sweeping generalisation, are you Rosemary Conley? - Ever been on real ops where the choice is compo or compo?

People who maintain good levels of fitness are less likely to smoke. Fact.

But failing the RAFFT doesn’t mean you immediately reach for the B&H so an irrelevant observation.

Apart from that what Pontius Navigator said

[wokkameister]

I think it ironic that having gone up 3 age levels, I will be required to attain 1 level higher than when I was 21.

However, that isn't my point. Taken in isolation, this isn't an overwhelmingly unreasonable request from our lords and masters. What I object to is the timing.

During the busiest time the Armed Forces have had in several decades, the RAF have decided to change everything at the same time.

Fitness testing, pay and conditions, EO, kitting, working practices, lean and pulse, JPA, technician rank structure, rank badges, terms of engagement, blah blah blah.

People do not know whether they are coming or going. For Christ's sake, leave us alone for 12 months to get to grips with the stuff that's already changed.

The goalposts never stop moving, the hoops never stop rising, the beat never slows and the tempo never subsides.

Why are people leaving?.....................

[Pontius Navigator]

Was it Bastard Bill who decreed that Strike was to stop for a year? No inpections except mandatory ones, no tacevals, minivals etc just mark time and catch up?

Sorry week after next it is no longer Strike. Still nothing on the Strike Web but then the January bulletin has only just hit the streets and the website was last updated last month.

[Green Flash]

Hit the big 50 soon. s'funny, but although I struggle to hit the mark in the gym, when a 107 lands outside, I've got the 0 to 60 of a 17 year old. Funny thing, that.

[Top Right]

"There was a delegation from the airforce at the British Synchronised Swimming championships recently so possibly they are looking at a different method of achieving the end result!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Well if there was, I should like to clarify that they were nothing to do with the RAF Swimming Association! We stick to serious swimming, water polo (a slightly challenging sport (no drowning horse jokes please)), diving (tricky and demanding) and open water swimming (The Channel, Gib straits and cold lakes). Synchro must be something being looked at by somebody else. But goodness knows who!

Could we transfer this one over to the Caption Contest thread?

[Uncle Ginsters]

I have it on good authority that the PEd branch ran a trial on a Gulf-based Det on physical fitness vs Job Stamina and work rates.

The uncomfortable truth was that the "F@t B*$tards" performed better than those with a higher personal fitness levels. This is even backed up by some science concerning metabolic rates in relation to fitness and required sustanence.

I'm not a fan of looking like an ATC officer (Spaceys, that is:} ) and we should all take pride in our personal appearance.....but how do you sell the fact the fat people seem to perform better in our current operational theatres?

Pin pulled, retarding to a safe distance (Mars?)

[Pontius Navigator]

Given the 'right' fat build, fat people often have greater physical strength and static endurance. They may not be racing snakes and able to run 5 clicks in full but . . .

Fit for Purpose must be defined before fitness can be determined.

[Eckster]

I failed my fitness test 2 months before i went to the 'died in June/July 2005 because i was told to do it or get charged even though i had a light duties chit from the med centre due to an ankle ligament problem. I failed it and explained to the PTI's why. I also did my 2 months in the Gulf where i was given a glowing report for the effort and commitment i put in.

I'm overweight (and know i shouldn't be) but outperformed several skinny personnel who were out there at the same time as me. All i did was heed the advice about fluid intake and ate sensibly in the mess.

Fit for duty is different to fit by a required level. An RAF cross country runner at Leuchars many years ago failed his fitness test because he knackered his knees due to having to turn 180 degrees at the end of the gym. So ultra fit person fails fatty test but can still go out of area.

By the way I'm off to Seeb in a couple of months wether passed test or not. Not sloping my responsibilites.

[Arthur's Wizard]

Fast forward 20 years, Maple can still outrun said girly, even if lumbered with GPMG but fails fitness test at level x for 38 YO bloke.

If you can't even reach the very low RAF standard for a 38 YO, you are obviously extremely unfit in which case, I wouldn't expect the likes of you to agree that good levels of physical fitness have so many benefits - both quantifiable and perhaps not - to an employer such as the MOD.

So that's why sportsmen need to high altitude train to play netball on Mt Kilimanjaro but the RAF are happy there is no requirement for same when dispatching unfortunates to Kandahar?

:ugh: Sportsmen train at high altitude to incite an intense oxygen defecit so that when they subsequently perform/compete at sea level (ish), their bodies are more efficient at using available oxygen.

Kandahar is c.3000'AMSL. Not exactly high altitude. What do you want, an expedition to the Andes at PDT! :rolleyes:

Dunno what section/flight you worked in, it was always the sports freaks off sick with a strained metatarsal or some other nonce excuse

Sports freaks? With that statement and the ones above, I now have what I reckon is a very clear picture of you and your probable body shape!

Bring it on Porky!

Regards

A 38YO Wannabee PTI :rolleyes:

[Wader2]

THS, you have a good memory. QR1051 - Custody Hearings, notice, arrangements and evidence.

Now if you look at QR 430 does that fit the billl or even are they barking up the right tree?

To be fit . . . with the added ability to recover rapidly. This implies a test that lasts X minutes followed by an assessment of time to recover, say pulse to return to resting state or resting plus whatever.

To fulfil daily task energetically and recover given prolonged periods and adverse conditions. Like servicing the helo at the top of Pen y Fan?

Adequate is merely pass the AFT.

Only a small element of time in the working week.

Directed complusory fitness training in work time provided properly organised structured and supervised.

The last is really the rub.

A mass cross-country run three times per week (B o r i n g) is easy to administer and to measure provided the course is circular with no easy access to short cuts.

Small section training OTOH could be a real pain. If one person is in charge of, say, 12 men there may be a need for 10 or more sessions to fit with shift patterns and availability.

I will watch with interest.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"A 38YO Wannabee PTI"

or a 38 year old who is 2 years from the scrap heap and is possibly more than a little envious of our longevity of life in the light blue :p

[Arthur's Wizard]

Seldom

Possibly, although as an LE turncoat oik, I have a job till 50 if I want it. Although freedom in 2yrs does sound appealing! :p

[vecvechookattack]

I assuming that all of these negative remarks concerning the fitness of the Armed Forces are from Spec aircrew who can't fit their fat bellies into their oversized Ovvies and who spend most of their time at "work" (if you can call it that) slobbing around the crewroom in pairs of slippers.

[Pontius Navigator]

vectak, I think you will find there is a fair spread of comment here. If anything many of the aircrew probably do have the time and inclination. I had heard that the Typhoon crews have special gyms on the sqn.

No, most of the whinging is from people who have been overworked OOA or down route and look forward to bit of value time at home. Also groundies struggling to meet the flypro or blunties trying to meet the demands with reduced manning now JPA does it all.

[vecvechookattack]

Most of the Squadrons here at Culdrose have some sort of Gyms in them. Weights, etc.

But military servicemen shouldn't moan about having to keep fit. They will be moaning about having to go so hot and sandy places and put themselves in harms way next.

[Could be the last?]

Wader 2,

The reality is that we need the deploying troops to be as fit as possible. By increasing specific types of PT we can offset the physical damge that will be sustained when carrying out ops. However, trying to get support from the lords and masters on a frontline unit is nigh on impossible.

If it means that flying units don't fly for a couple of hours each week, then so be it. If nothing else, it creates the bonding that is required when people go to war!

Stop bleating and get down the gym, and take some of your men/women with you.:ok:

[blogger]

I'll give it a week before the work load backs up so much that this gym time is pushed to one side.

You can take a techie to the gym but you can't make him work out.

I can just see some jumped up LAC acting CPL PTI yelling at us old Techie chief's ....RUN.

Tell you what he would be told to Fcuk right off.:ok: and get back in his box.

[SRENNAPS]

Arthur's Wizard
I think you need to get a life and stop being so paranoid.
Rgds

[Maple 01]

it creates the bonding that is required when people go to war!
I suspect most of us here were attending wars before you were born, perhaps not a good crowd to lecture! Bonding is more about pi@@ups and squadron camaraderie than futile phys or the much vaunted but ultimately bollox deployment test thingie
Stop bleating and get down the gym, and take some of your men/women with you.
I refer the right honorable gentlemen to my colleague’s (blogger) last comment

Authur, you're a pongo aren’t you? If that's the case you are about as qualified to talk about the RAFFT as I am about the Regimental system!

But as you’re a self appointed expert can you explain why there different fitness levels for boys and girls if it's all about operations? Are the bad guys less likely to shoot at the slower girl because she's passed her fitness test?

[Kengineer-130]

I can't belive some of the utter Boll**s written on this thread :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: . Have any of you who are singing from your ivory towers actually been to an AT unit recently??? Most sqaudrons are working at breaking point as it is, the AVERAGE shift manning is around the 60%mark :ugh: :mad: , when prey, do you suggest that we stop working on the assets that are being screamed for by ops, and go for a jolly little run around camp??? I'm sure the lads sat in Al-udied/Basrah/kandahar will understand that although they have no flight home, the tekkies and stackers are having a jog :ugh:

Yet another Ill thought out and Ill implemented policy :\ . Personally, I would love to go to the gym every day and play section/station sports, but working 12 hr shifts that are busy as hell 99% of the time, hardly inspire you to go and run 10K in the gym after a shift:ugh: ..... Either give us the manpower to do the job, or leave us alone!!! I think some people need a bit of a reality check, and need to realize how stretched most units are :mad:

[SRENNAPS]

Hope this winds a few people up:
Fact – Paranoid fitness people are not team players.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people don’t play rugby, soccer, cricket or golf; they would rather work out in the gym.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people can’t concentrate on their job because they are thinking about their next work out and what girlies might be in the gym.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people tend to flag it after 6 hours into a 12 hour shift in temperatures above 50 degrees…….Actually they tend to flag it after a few hours of real work in any climate.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people, when on deployment spend half their lives sunbathing and admiring their own bodies.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people can’t talk about anything in the pub except fitness; boring the crap out of everybody else.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people take the pi$$ out of people less fit than themselves but get a mega strop on when somebody takes the pi$$ out of them.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people tend to have no morale values in life. i.e they will sh*g anything that is remotely fit without any thought to loved ones back home and without any form of guilt.
Fact – Paranoid fitness people are taking over the mob – and it is not a good thing.

[blogger]

Sports afternoon ..... giving time off to one or two persons to play team footy etc to make the station look good.

Great everyone else on shift has to work harder to make up the sortfall in man power or end up knocking off late ........great.....really great.

Next morning where's blogg's oh chief he hurt himself playing footy hes down the doc's..... great short of man power yet again..... and this guy wants praise on his anual report for playing footy:rolleyes:

Week later Chief can I have tomorrow off for station footy? ........No you can't get back to work.....

The RAF today.........:ugh:

[wokkameister]

I've never come anywhere near failing my fitness test, and I spend far more time in 'the field/desert' than half the armchair Napoleans that have spouted off so far. I have to agree with Kengineer and SRENNAPS.

I work kin'hard and have done all my time in the RAF. I have quite often been the person organising the squadron whilst the sports freaks are chasing a ball. I don't object to that...but I do object to having my ability to do my job called into question because I don't run 20k in the lunchbreak I regularly don't have.

I will undertake the new fitness test, and I will pass it, because I would rather die trying than fail - just my generation I think.

But a lot of people sat in offices working regular hours, or on a Typhoon/F3 squadron with no real purpose in life other than functional tests on silver shadows need to wind their necks in and go back to chasing balls, letting the rest of us go back to fighting wars.

Anyone from any service who wants a p***ing competion on front line time, you know where to find me....and it's not at the gym.

Wokkameister out

[Confucius]

Amen wokka, amen.

[Arthur's Wizard]

I should have known that trying to sell the benefits of a reasonably active lifestyle to most members of the RAF was a futile exercise.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should become this paranoid:confused: meat head that SRENNAPS describes. Only that individuals should at least aim to be able to pass the very basic fitness tests required by the RAF - Maybe then you could walk between the couch and the fridge without sounding like an asthmatic rhino with a head cold.

I won't add any more to this thread. I'll just let you sedentary types keep making every excuse why you should continue living like sloths whilst believing that you are the only ones working bloody hard.

ps. I'm not a 'gym freak' or a 'paronoid fitness person', I just recognise the benefits of trying to keep active - both in professional terms and overall lifestyle terms.

[toddbabe]

This fit for trade or duty or whatever bollox some people are spouting is utterly stupid we are an armed force, we should all be at a decent level of fitness.
I personally agree that we should get time in work to keep fit, but if it's not possible then you should still manage it in your own time, fitness in the services isn't a bonus nicety, it should be a base line criteria.
Nobody gets time off from work to keep their kit in order or their shoes polished, you do it in your own time cos your kit has to be a certain standard! well guess what your body should be a certain standard as well.
All those bleeting aren't caring about whats right or wrong or if the system affects the operation of aircraft, they are whingeing cos they are lazy, probably overweight and don't like phys, tough luck this is how it's going to be and should be!
If people aren't fit enough to pass the fitness test then they shouldn't be fit enough to get good detachments, be promoted or in my opinion get their full wages.
It's no use saying I don't need to run far or be able to do x ammount of sit ups etc, If your plane goes down in the stan and your Gps was tits and your Prc isn't working I aint going to be too pleased lugging your fat arses around to safety cos you can't be arsed keeping fit, when you have got a team of Taliban looking for you and the border is 30 clicks away whos going to make it me the racing snake or you the Lard arse who thinks I am a stacker, or a mover or wsop etc I don't need to be fit?
Far fetched maybe, but it could happen.
Stop hiding and start training fatties.

[Maple 01]

In other words you're going to avoid the two key issues here just like all the other gym queens

Why have different fitness level requirements for male and female personnel if its all about operations? Surely one level for all? No? Then it's not about ops, it's about keeping PTIs in jobs.

When is the manpower going to be upped to allow for all this "essential phys?" never, because its not that important - manning figures take into account only minimum manning levels, no slack for sports nuts. - why should the rest of an over worked shift cover your desire to play sport or hang out down the gym with like-minded chaps?

The high-ups consider the operational tempo is more important then hanging around in a gym admiring your self in a mirror, so there's your answer, your main purpose is to perform your primary role, as long as you can do your job anything not directly involved in maintaining the task is niff-naff and trivia.

[wokkameister]

Arthur, anyone who has to qualify that they aren't paranoid....usually is.

toddbabe, the fact that you've included babe in your title tells me your onlt in love with one person. As you type from Elgin, I would guess that you sit in the back/front of a grimrod doing an essential job. But I think I am far more likely to find myself face to face with the TB or holding a broken GPS. Do not presume to tell me what I need to do in preperation for that day.
I've never failed my fitness test and am more than willing to go 'a few rounds', I merely think the policy is flawed.

[airborne_artist]

Feb 79, RN aircrew survival course at Seafield Park. Among the fifteen odd attendees were a racing snake (rock climber, XC runner, gym freak etc) and AN Other, a good 25 lbs overweight, who when not at the bar was in front of the TV, and if doing neither of those was partaking of Egyptian PT.

Three days into the survival phase, and it got very cold - show, frost, and quite windy as well.

Racing snake gets hypothermia, and is miserable for the rest of the six days. AN Other happy as Larry all the way though, never cold, always joking. Even more thrilled to find he'd lost 15 lbs on returning to the Mess. Luckily was able to put it back on within a fortnight.

Moral - get fit by all means, but eat for Queen and County for at least a month beforehand if anticipating an E&E in cold climes.

[insty66]

Stop hiding and start training fatties.

Thats just the attitude to get everyone running for fun (an oxymoron shirley).

Like Wm, I too have never failed a fitness test despite now being required to run further now than 9/10 years ago. Holier than thou jockstrap attitudes only strengthen opinions against fitness tests.

A couple of years back when "heat acclimatisation" was brought in the entire shift troggs of to the gym @ 0730 and we are put through our paces by a PTI who was well aware of the vastly differing fitness levels. After about 30 everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves and were giving it a "right go".

Trouble is the flying programm was disrupted and no matter which way we tried to sort it flying came first and we wereprevented from doing our acclimatisation as required.

What I'm getting at is some people might not voluntarily get to the gym in work time and not be able to do so in their own time. But if you give them the time, then you might just be amazed at how hard people will work at getting fit. After all it is a job requirement not a life one.

Preach less teach more and give people time.

[vecvechookattack]

Are you really stating that the RAF will expect their chaps to conduct their fitness traininhg during working hours? Whats wrong with doing it in your own time?

[ChiefWiggum]

Wokka
As you type from Elgin, I would guess that you sit in the back/front of a grimrod doing an essential job.

He could be at the other secret airbase in Moray.

Agree with you on the rest, though.

[airborne_artist]

Whats wrong with doing it in your own time?

IIRC all your time, except when on leave, is working time, if required. No Working Time Directive in Betty's Sailing/Flying clubs.

[Pontius Navigator]

VecVec,

Just curious you understand, but what exercise facility exists on a boat that will allow 3 x 50 minutes of quality exercise? That would certainly be in Betty's time?

Last time I looked there were some rates who could certainly not fit in a torpedo tube. Indeed it was doubtful if they even fitted into a pusser's shirt.

Spoke volumes for the lasses that secured the buttons though.

[zedder]

Ckeck out the new fitness test. Time allowed is 4 mins 26 secs:}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG5yn9FyASc

[SID East]

Does anyone actually know what the increased fitness test standard is going to be? Are we talking a few shuttles or a whole extra level on the MSFT?
I would personally love to be given time in work, 3 times a week, for Phys but I also doubt that the hierarchy will allow the flying task to reduce, which it would have to. Having said that I believe there may be some such arrangement at Odiham that allows for some compulsory PT?

I often see Army units and RAF Regiment, out on mass runs etc. They are given the time as part of their primary duties, they are soldiers. If the RAF want similar fitness levels across the board they must give people the time to train. Simple.

As for the sexual discrimination bit, the more I think about it the more ridiculous the justification for differing levels seems to me. I heard a rumour recently that an RAF male successfully overcame the fitness requirements by stating that he intended to live his life as a woman, with no actual plans to do so. Under the human rights act the RAF had to honour his intentions and treat him as a lady when it came to the fitness test.
Do we see a mass sex-change campaign on the horizon?

SID :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

SID East, last time I looked the answer was no. This rather begs the question as to what energentic physical activity you should do.

The easy coop out is a run. Easy to organise, easy to supervise and usually, but not always, plenty of space.

Strength exercises OTOH are less easy to organise, not easy to supervise and are frequently space of facilties limited.

Can you imagine the hastle trying to get all the cars off the parade square, unless there is a SLAM building on it, for formation situps, press-up and arm swinging?

[Farfrompuken]

Excellent News!!!
The RAF are going to give me 2hrs 30 a week to go off and put some serious mileage on my mountain bike! (I'll burn about 850-900kCal in each session).
Or will it be the usual dull-as-ditchwater circuits session/trotting up and down a gym/plodding round a sports pitch requiring half the level of effort?:ugh:
As for doing PT in your own time, I cannot see how ANYONE fails to partake. I've got 2 kids, a busy schedule etc etc, but I can still find time for a run, even if it's just before bed (take a torch) or I have to get up an hour earlier. I hate running but it beats being cooped up in a gym any day. On det it can be a challenge but I've always found a way to get it in. It just requires a tad of MOTIVATION.
I'm all for enforced PT(if it's enjoyable and worthwhile), but methinks dullness will prevail as it will justify the PEd branch's existence for a while longer. All because of a few people who lack self discipline and motivation. Just sack them.:mad:

[Maple 01]

All because of a few people who lack self discipline and motivation. Just sack them.

Sorry, remind me again, are we an Air Force or a Gym club?

[RETDPI]

I used to believe some had misheard years ago and thought they worked in RAF Sport Command.

[Pontius Navigator]

Puken Or will it be the usual dull-as-ditchwater circuits session/trotting up and down a gym/plodding round a sports pitch requiring half the level of effort?

My point. How do you manage 2000 individuals doing exercise 3 times per week? Allowing for duties such as Orderly Sgt, watch keeping, shift workers, workers working out of hours, such as cooks and chefs? How do you provide sufficient facilities for 200-300 people at a time?

Let us assume a batch of 200 people at one hour per session and 3 sessions per week, that immediately amounts to 30 session hours per week.

On top of that you will have to provide shower and changing facilities for twice that many simply to allow for the change-over between A-shift and B-shift.

6000 showers in a week, say 1500 per day, 5 minutes each (blokes not birds). Just watch the water bill.

Did anyone spot Edward Leigh, Chairman of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee?

<<The report said the MoD "faces many, often conflicting demands on its resources".

It continued: "Despite these budgetary pressures, other parts of the MoD have injected an additional £45 million to carry out estate work at short notice, including fire safety systems, sports facilities and toilet and shower facilities."

The MoD also set aside £4,000 to invest in a polo pitch at Buckley Barracks, Wilts, but the money was never spent.

The report said that in the same year that the money was spent on sports facilities, the MoD had to find savings of £15 million "largely through the deferrals in planned maintenance and repair".

Edward Leigh, the chairman of the Commons public accounts committee, which oversees the NAO's work, said: "While roofs were left to leak, money had been found for sports pitches. I am left wondering if resources are being targeted in the right way.>>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/23/narmy23.xml

The question I am asking, and I am not anti-sport as I have even acquired a mini-gym, alas no showers or toilets, is just how is it to work, how is it to be done and how the facilities are to be provided?

Anyone that thinks 3x50 minutes is equating to 2 hr 30 min is dreaming.

The criteria is 50 minutes of physical activity - to this can be added 10 minutes to get to the facility and change and 20 minutes minimum to return. There will then be a further 20-30 minutes recovery period (ie people disinclined to work until they have stopped sweating, perspiring or glowing, depending on rank and sex.

I am awaiting an official answer.

[Farfrompuken]

M01
You appear to have got the wrong end of the stick, me old.
I feel that compulsory gym/sports field bashing is totally unnecessary, since we all have, or should have time away from work to do as we please.
If you rock up and fail the fitness test for no good reason, then adios. We're a fighting force and there's no place for baggage. That doesn't mean you should be in peak fitness 24/7. The test standards are hardly demanding.
If they INSIST on scheduled 'work time' PT, then I hope they're pragmatic about it otherwise it'll have a negative effect, reminding those that currently don't partake exactly how unenjoyable fitness can be!

[TWOL8]

The very simple fact is that we are required to keep a level of fitness as part of our service within the RAF. All those who hide behind the "as long as i can do my primary duty" mantra should perhaps read the small print... yes you have a primary function to perform but you also have a responsibility to keep fit. If you can't be ar*ed to keep fit then bye bye, go work for someone else who doesn't require fitness standards.
As for those who bitch about not having the time to do the exercise required, remember you do get paid 24/7, stop whining and do it after work...or before.
We are part of the British military, we should't accept fat, lazy, idle wasters who want to do the bare minimum and pick up their paycheck.

[ACSfirstfail]

get a life mr AMP/PTI/sad git!!!

care about your fitness = keep fit

Care about fitness and can do job but can't pass RAFFT=keep working hard on both counts

Can't do fitness test and sh%t at job=chuck out!!

I want a test for AMP/PTI = 10 hrs in a darkened room. vacuum cleaner on for 10 hrs. last hour bright light shining in face. Final hour co-ordination test and mental test.....2+2=? for AMP doh I mean PTI!

Get a life military top brass and admin losers let us do our jobs ('kin well) and stop the bull!!!!

[ZH875]

remember you do get paid 24/7, stop whining and do it after work...or before.

If we are paid 24/7, why are the government allowed to pay us well below the minimum wage, as only a Level 4 Major and above are paid a legal wage.

NO OR's are, so if they want us to get fit, give us time to, in our PAID DUTY time.

Anyway, I dont care, 16 working weeks left:) , then they can do what they like, when they like.

[Pontius Navigator]

There are two points and many of you are missing the main one.

CAS want's people to take responsibility and do 3 periods of physical activity per week. full stop.

CinC says it is up to stn cdrs to see this happens. full stop

He goes on to say that stn cdrs will delegate to flt cdrs who will appoint PTLs.

Nowhere does it say 3 x 50 minutes exercise

However to use PTLs to monitor such exercise and to mandate that it will be 50 minutes implies that it will be work.

I believe there is also an insurance issue involved; for instance I believe the rules are different if you break your ankle doing voluntary jockstrapping on a Saturday, as opposed to organised sport.

In the winter, for day workers, there are no daylight hours for out of hours running. Many jockstrappers run at lunchtimes in lieu of lunch but surely you cannot 'cancel' lunch and substitute sports instead.

The CAS's wishes are feasible. The implementation may not be feasible and may create both administative overload, especially for the PTLs, and as people have said, as soon as it is mandated it becomes DUTY.

Now there could be one benefit. If the morning wave was cancelled 3 times per week it would be a big efficiency saving - very green.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Pontius,
I hope you are correct.
What we need is a few captains/co-pilots to go down with the odd broken ankle or other injury, and suddenly the whole PTI-driven fitness test will be dead in the water.
In all my years in the mob, it wasn't the 'overweight' or 'unfit' guys that let the side (or crew) down; it was always the bloody stupid jock-strappers that had 'pulled a muscle' here or 'torn a ligament' there.
Unfortunately, the RAF (and prob the other services) doesn't have a medical service any longer that it can rely on to fix people who get injured playing sports. We can't even rely on the NHS to get us fixed in a reasonable time, so what happens? Simple, if the injury is serious enough, you will get binned!
I don't have a problem with people keeping fit, but this continuous enforcement of a fitter and leaner RAF has become a joke frankly. And as for getting the time off.....now lets see..........
Friday pm, looking for a SAR standby crew; 'Sorry Sir, count me out, I'm off to do a spot of jogging, haven't been able to do any this week yet'
Yeh, right.
TWOL, what Air Force do you work for then? paid 24 hours a day? You're having a laugh arn't you?
Kind regards to all
TSM

[TWOL8]

ZH875, Unhappy with not being paid the minimum wage, is that why your leaving? Question... Why is it that if you don't care you felt compelled to make comment. All i can say is roll on the 16 weeks, people with this PAID DUTY i only work 9-5 or whetever shift i'm on attitude make me sick.
My only hope is that your an LAC because anything higher would suggesrt you would have to set an example to others and so far your attitude seems to suggest you wouldn't be up to the task!!!!!!

[ZH875]

All i can say is roll on the 16 weeks

Yep, I couldn't agree more.:)

With the amalgamation of engineering trades, JPA (meaning become a part time shiney), Guard (become a part time snowdrop), PTL (become a part time musclemech) it wont be long before they have just two employment paths in the RAF - Waiters (waiting to leave) and leavers.


BTW, I work as many hours as is needed, and wherever it is needed, and unlike the anorexic racing snakes, I have never had a day off work in well over 25 years. SRENNAPS has it correct.

[Maple 01]

Ah! The smell of jockstrappers getting a wendy on....... face facts, it's about airframes in the sky, not hanging out in gyms admiring other blokes (if that's your bag so be it - but not in the firm's time please). FYO TWOL8, most of the old blokes arguing against this errant fitness jamboree are what BAe so subtly describe as 'combat proven' aircrew and their (t)rusty groundcrew with more hours in service than a Shackelton has rivets - they might just know something you don't.....

Normal personal fitness = good
Enforced health fascism = bad

Fat and do your job well = salt of the earth
Jockstrapper with delusions of competency = waste of rats

[Pontius Navigator]

TWOL, I used to put duty beyond all.

Later I had a captain who thought time off to look after a sick wife was disloyal. Later, after he had a very serious illness and survived past 40, his attitude changed.

Even the air force acknowledged that one's attitudes and aspirations change over time. Under 30 you could do anything, would do anything, and relished detachments and deployments.

Over 40 you wanted to be home from time to time, like every day, to see the wife and kids as they grew up. You wanted your own home, you did not want to be posted every 2 years.

All I can say is that you will eventually realise that you are in the job for yourself and no one else. If you do not look to your rights, no one else will. The fact remains, not everyone has the 3 hours spare out of work. In one job, my away from home time, was 10 1/2 hrs per day and longer when I was flying. Mrs PN then expected some 'me' time too.

Sorry, it is not that easy.

[TWOL8]

PN,
I do look after my own rights, i just happen to believe that the RAF sets standards and i should be able to attain them. Fitness is one of those standards. The fact is too many people pass fitness tests at Cranwell, then becauase they have little or no self discipline they become fat and lazy.
I will not let that happen to me as i have far too much pride.

Facts don't change the RAF has a fitness standard that all should achieve, it was there in black and white when you signed up. From memeory i dont think it said fitness standards become optional as you get older because we know your priorities change.!!!!!

[Old Bus Driver]

I am returning to UK this year from an exchange tour and have no idea what the new fitness standrds actually are. Could someone in the know please post them here so I can see what all the fuss is about.

OBD

[Exrigger]

Off topic but ZH875 your comment: If we are paid 24/7, why are the government allowed to pay us well below the minimum wage, as only a Level 4 Major and above are paid a legal wage.

If you work 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week, 52 weeks in the year at minimum wage (5.35 for 22 years old an above) you will earn £23,348 every one from a Level 1 Cpl up wards gets more than this.

For those 18 - 22 this equates to £19,491 which equates to JT/SAC level 7 up.

[Pontius Navigator]

Twol8, don't disagree with anything you said. The point is that the requirement for a complusory 3x50 does not accord with what CAS is reported to have required and seems wholly impractible on an organised basis unless fit to fight comes first and fly to fight comes second.

As soon as you make it a complusory set then the whole rule set changes.

If you read what I posted about Edward Leigh you will see that there will be no money for facilities.

The acid test is whether you can pass the fitness test. Where I could do the 1.5 mile run, in time, and without training then demonstrably I needed to take no additional exercise; others couldn't and didn't. If you want to improve general fitness then indeed the test should be made harder year by year so that people do have to do additional exercise.

However two things remain. One is why are there sex differences. The other is what standard? The new tests have not, as far as I know, been decided.

[Roland Pulfrew]

TWOL

Facts don't change the RAF has a fitness standard that all should achieve, it was there in black and white when you signed up.

Er, No. When I signed there was no mention of any fitness standard or test. Sorry but you are wrong on that account.

If the RAF want people to be fit then it should be done in work time. Wednesday afternoons for sport anyone? Now that was in when I signed!!!:ok:

[ZH875]

Off topic but ZH875 your comment: If we are paid 24/7, why are the government allowed to pay us well below the minimum wage, as only a Level 4 Major and above are paid a legal wage.

If you work 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week, 52 weeks in the year at minimum wage (5.35 for 22 years old an above) you will earn £23,348 every one from a Level 1 Cpl up wards gets more than this.

For those 18 - 22 this equates to £19,491 which equates to JT/SAC level 7 up.
I agree, but that is not 24/7 that is 12/7 which is a bit different, and lowers the wage up to OR levels.

Maybe, if the RAF had set a standard, then provided the time to achieve it, people would not be complaining. No time off when the flying plan is stretched to the limit, and the groundcrew leaned,

When I was on 12hr shifts at the Wilts airbase, my 12hrs was actually 13+, due to Handover/Takeover briefs, and there was no way that I was going to turn that into a 14+ hour day just to add to the menial statistics.

PN, I am sure the new levels have been set, the TOEU has a copy on their groundies notice board.

[Maple 01]

What Roland said, grandfather rights!

[Pontius Navigator]

ZH, thanks you for that. Same PTIs I guess so I am waiting for them to get around and tell me.

Given the standards, how are you to achieve the aim then?

[BEagle]

"Wednesday afternoons for sport anyone? Now that was in when I signed!!!"

No it wasn't! Wednesday sports afternnoons disappeared when Saturday morning flying disappeared - which was before ven my time!

I hold with the sage old RAAF view:

"If you want to get yourself fitter, sport, get yourself a heavier glass!" :ok:

The RAF must be such a fun place these days, run by gym queens and rockapes.......

[toddbabe]

I think it's a good thing that the powers that B want us fitter, if it works in work time then fine if not then do it in your own, fitness is an absoulte given in the forces fact! as for the equality issue with regards to women I also agree that it is wrong! I am not avoiding anything Maple and would like to see them compete at an equal level.
The fact still remains though that personnel aren't fit enough as a whole in the RAF, Men and Women alike.
Yes they should be equal, they should all be doing more to a higher level!
I think you should remove all the mirrors in gyms you won't find me posing in front of one! I said we should be fitter not Meat heads who do weights! I am talking about circuits and running outside, no specialist equipment no fancy kit just higher heat rates more often!
The only thing that gets a lot of heart rates up at the mo is waddling to the mess!

[BEagle]

Remember the old days of the Station Bicycle Store? And I don't mean the WRAF block...

Pedalling about the station kept a few folk reasonably fit - but then someone decided that the Stn Bike Stores had to go as yet another defence cut. Although they didn't disappear from the blue clearance cards until many years later!

Also, at Honington in Buccaneer days, if you lived in the OM you weren't allowed to drive to work - you had to walk. Everyone who lived out had a numbered car parking spot and had to leave their cars there and walk.

[South Bound]

Again the direction we are getting is woolly and unhelpful. What is needed is the following:

1. A clear definition of a standard that generically demonstrates the fitness requirement required to do our war roles. This should be non-gender specific, non-age specific. Certain roles might require a greater level of fitness.
2. An explaination of the standard to the troops (just to appease those of you out there that don't understand why you should be a certain standard of fitness).
3. Introduction of the standard over a realistic timescale, allowing people sufficient time to train for it.
4. Realistic, career limiting sanctions against those that do not achieve the standard.

Make the training classes and facilities available, make the importance very clear and then let individuals get on with it, enough of this nanny state nonsence. CFT would do the trick IMHO, but might be over the top - not for me to decide, but all of us should be prepared to fight and run away. Anyone that thinks otherwise has no imagination.

[Wader2]

Could be the Last
Wader 2,

The reality is that we need the deploying troops to be as fit as possible. By increasing specific types of PT we can offset the physical damge that will be sustained when carrying out ops.

Stop bleating and get down the gym, and take some of your men/women with you.:ok:

I take exception to your last para. First, I do not have to go down to the Gym. I have been age exempt for a good many years.

Secondly I actually had a gym installed but it is very small and there are no showers or toilets. Provided the facilities are acceptable for this new regime then there will be time for them to be used but if they are required to use other facilties such as sports pitches, courts and gymnasia then it would cost about 7-8 hrs per person per week as they would have to travel to their parent station.

Your other statement:

However, trying to get support from the lords and masters on a frontline unit is nigh on impossible.

If it means that flying units don't fly for a couple of hours each week, then so be it.

Is absolutely crucial to the result. All the support units must be available for the activity. The loss of time would not be a couple of hours per week but more like 3 half or quarter days.

As flying is dependent on weather, aircraft availability etc and is our primary job then it would need a sea change to alter this.

Moreover on OCUs every trip is planned and there is a planned output date. Start adding in an exercise regime and the output date will shoot to the right. Also imagine Monday morning sport - weather gin clear - no flying. Tuesday dog**** - black flag but no sport organised - etc etc

[South Bound]

Must admit I am struggling to understand why all this is so tricky. I really do understand the constraints/difficulties associated with making time, but howse about a late (0900) start Mon, Wed and Fri for group fiz at 0800? Would that really make everything else so difficult? Maybe it would, maybe not...

That is pretty much the way the Army do group PT and seems to work for them, (although I do know they get a lot more time during the week for further PT).

Like the posts above say, all it takes is a bit of commitment from senior management.

[Wader2]

Southbound your 1226 post makes perfect sense. Your 1326 post shows a lack of understanding.

The first take-off at 0800 does not happen to coincide with the guys getting off their bikes at the sheds (does for some, not all).

An 0800 start time means that:

The night shift put the jets to bed at 2300-0100 or later.

The Ops Assistant opens Ops at 0500, ditto sqn. Cooks and bottle washers have been at it since 0500 too and start breakfasts at 0600. Engineers ready jets and range them on the flight line by 0700. Crews arrive at 0600. Brief and walk at 0715 or so. ATC manned by 0730. and so on.

Put simply a large number of people are at work up to 3 hours or more before start work. As large a number at at work after cease work.

I believe that aircrews are also discouraged from undertaking strenuous exercise before flying.

So, what I want to see is how it is planned for everyone to undertake these three periods of exercise per week. Will the regular jockstrappers be exempt or will they have to do team exercise too?

[South Bound]

Wader, thank you for your opinion of my understanding. :ok:

You have taken it too literally - I genuinely don't believe it is too difficult to permit the majority of staff to take an hour off several occasions during the week if it is coordinated and managed properly (that does not have to be all at the same time...). All it takes is some willingness to do so.

If not 0800, then finish flying an hour earlier, then your engineers, opsies and ATC types can escape to the gym (Most of the rest of the Unit work fixed shift patterns and can manage accordingly - HR Flts regularly close for afternoons with little impact to the Unit).

This does require an acknowledgement that there will be an impact on what can be achieved in a shorter timescale, and that is the leadership element.

[ZH875]

If not 0800, then finish flying an hour earlier, then your engineers, opsies and ATC types can escape to the gym

I will guarantee that no matter what time flying finishes, the engineers will not be able to shut up shop and goto the gym immediately. There are flight servicings, rectification, and other tasks that would keep them back at work.

As usual, if the big cheeses saw engineers swanning off to the gym, when there are a number of unserviceable airframes waiting to be fixed, they would demand that the u/s kites be worked on FIRST.:ugh:

[cornish-stormrider]

As a now partly crippled veteran of RAF PTI's and physio's whose attitude was and I quote directly "the reason you have a bad back is because you are too fat." at the time of my injury/downgrading I was 15 and a half stone still cycling over 100 miles per week, swimming, cycling to work, going down the gym and doing as much surfing and sailing the Moray Firth would allow, all was in my own time. I used to surf before work, during lunch and after work, all my phis was geared towards my sports. When i discussed the fit for purpose with the pt muppets their attitude was you fat, you unfit end of discussion. They never did take me up on an offer to go for a surf with me at Thurso when it was double overhead barrels with snow on the beach.

You have to identify your aims for fitness, give the troops time and incentive to do it and make allowances that tg1 and 2 work more hours than the shiny arses know exist in a day and to give them time for sport is a luxury they don't have. I know, we could get all the engineers running laps round the HAS site between the waves!!! don't worry about the backstacked repairs or servicings.

I never saw a liney quit or fall over before the jet was done.

[cornish-stormrider]

Most of the HR flights close early with no impact my arse!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Try gettiong an admin query from psf, all thats missing is the call centre in bangladesh to guarantee a ****e service

[South Bound]

ZH875

yep, that is the perception, but we are not talking about swanning off and leaving the aircraft until the next day, just finding time in the day to take an hour off. That IS possible as long as there is no (or reduced) flying, it just needs management to support it. Eng-chum at Odiham says their engineers are doing compulsory group PT. If it works there, no reason it shouldn't work anywhere else...

As for no impact to HR service, clearly I meant that no one would notice...

[ZH875]

as long as there is no (or reduced) flying,..

As long as we have a Herc fleet, there will NEVER be no (or reduced) flying at the premier Herc base, no doubt that the equally hardworking engineers (and aircrew) at the Jet AT base also face a constant flying program.

If they want the engineers to spend more time in the gym, they should spend more money on more engineers for the flightline, until then, there will always be a 'negative' attitude to being told to go to the mirrored posing palace.

[Pontius Navigator]

Let's get one thing clear. We are not talking about 50 ompminutes or an hour off three times per week.

Complusory PT takes time to start, time to do it, and time to finish it.

A minimum of 10 minutes to get ready and 15-20 minutes to shower, get dressed and return to work. Say 1 1/2 per session.

Pound to a penny it will soon be 50 minutes start to finish - 15 minutes from section to start session, 20 minutes shower etc and return. 15 minutes PT.

Besides, apart from something like football, where some of the team move hardly at all - goal keeper on winning team for instance, there are not many things you can do that take 50 minutes - swim certainly, cycle certainly, but press-ups, sittups, squat jumps etc no. Running - 20-30 minutes maybe but not 50.

I agree that CFT is a go test but note the "T". So the unanswered questions remain. How about women and to what end is the training?

[wg13_dummy]

Unbelievable!


Crabs told to stop being fat.

6 page debate on the bloody subject.



It's not as if you are all being told to do P-Company every month is it?

[Pontius Navigator]

wg13, P company is a job in its own right. There would be b:mad: y ructions if they were told to blow up the balloon or service the b:mad: dy aircraft first.

[Melchett01]

In order to save server space, maybe this thread and 'End of Free Food' should be merged - they would appear to be related ;)

[vecvechookattack]

Good point Mr Melchett.....

Very interesting that the Crabs have 2 threads running....one about not getting enough food and one about having to go for a gentle jog....Hmmmm....


Flight Sgt Roly Poly to the rescue.

[Chicken Leg]

This thread is hilarious!
Let's look at why the Crabs think PT is a bad idea:
1. 'We don't have time'. The AAC make time, the FAA make time and yet the Rotund Air Force, who have more personnel per airframe than any other air force on the planet don't have enough people to be able to do it. Priceless.
2. 'It's not what they joined up for'. You're a military fighting force for crying out loud. Military fighting forces are formed around military discipline. I'll say that again, military discipline. Ring any bells. Military discipline starts with self discipline. Being rotund and unfit is not a good example of self discipline. Priceless.
3. This is the best one. 'Being fitter and less pork like is actually detrimental to me doing my job'. They quote how they once saw a fit bloke go down with exposure when a lard arse coped well. Well that's it then. Conclusive! Even the vast majority of overweight and unfit people would admit that they should eat less, exercise more, live a healthier life in general. They might not actualy do it, but they will acknowledge that they should. Not the Crabs :ugh: Their dedication to the work that they never stop moaning about is so high, that they put it before their own health and well being.Priceless, absolutely, f*****g priceless.

[Wader2]

Actually They quote how they once saw a fit bloke go down with exposure when a lard arse coped well. I think he was actually dark blue!

The dark blue seem to be keeping their heads down as they have their fair share of porkies.

Must admit I was interested to see the number of bikes (with wheels) coming off a warship at Guernsey for some serious exercise. Also NAC has a football team, not very good I know but a team nonethe less. Can't recall a 1 Gp football team or even a Strike Command one.

Coures, next week there will be no point in having a Command football team - who would they play?:)

[cockneyrock]

Don't tar us all with the same brush!!!

Have to say I agree with all of your post, the moaning on here is unbeliveable.
You did leave one point out. For years the "lard" of the RAF have moaned that they do not have time in their “busy and committed lives” to train in their own time. The RAF now mandates that all personnel are to carryout training and, the implication is that every effort should be made to make time available for personnel to train in work time. The collective "lard" of the RAF gets its wish and what do they do? Moan, whine and wail whilst they scuttle of to their little brew areas to eat donuts and contemplate ways of avoiding fitness or suing the RAF for daring to take an interest in their health and wellbeing. Unbelievable and frankly embarrassing

[Maple 01]

Seems its the Pongos on this forum that are outraged that we have better things to do than hang around in Gyms, and as its a RAF test they are about as well quallified to talk on the subject as I am about the correct procedures for storming field defences. Stick to what you know boys!

On reflection is it a case of 'we have to do it, why don't they?'
It's because we read the small print when we joined!

[wg13_dummy]

So you crabs are saying you can't spare 30 mins a week on a bit of basic phys?

F**king salad dodgers.

The RAF - The aggresive wing of EasyJet.

It's because we read the small print when we joined!

Really?

Why is it Joint med centres are full of fat sweaty RAF blokes trying to get a sick note from matron?

Fit for purpose?

How many working days are lost due to fatties on the biff?

No one is asking you lot to be Decatheletes. Just keeping yourselves basically fit so you don't become a burden on ops or even day to day at work.

No, its not a case of we have to do it so you lot should. Most Army types do it as a matter of routine because we know the value of keeping basic fitness in order.

Jointry and all that means we all work together a bit more now and RAF types do become a burden if they are fatties.

[South Bound]

Crikey, this whole thread is embarrassing.:ugh:

Get fit or die early boys and girls, your choice. Please just stop finding excuses not to and blaming everyone else. Friend of mine, strong as an Ox and spouted the same rubbish written here about being able to do his job so he must be fit enough, but abused his body for years, just had a significant stroke, might never be the same again - all as a result of the life choices he made years ago. Your choice.

[An Teallach]

How many working days are lost due to fatties on the biff?


Maybe this would be better on the "Chin Chin" thread, but my understanding of "biff" is as a verb. I can't imagine that you are referring to fatties getting sick chits for an excess of horizontal jogging?

[wg13_dummy]

Biff as in 'on the biff', as in 'biff chit - sick chit, on the sick'. :D

[Maple 01]

So you crabs are saying you can't spare 30 mins a week on a bit of basic phys?

No worries, just tell us which airframe you don't want tomorrow for CAS/transport etc, oh hang-on, silly me, I expect a bit of a private life, should have know we'd all transfered to the inf. You play it your way in the army, we'll do it our way - jointery my @rse! Another example of 'for purple read Green'

So you crabs are saying you can't spare 30 mins a week on a bit of basic phys?

Its not about that is it? Its about ratcheting up a discredited test system to a point that a 40 YO bloke is expected to be fitter than an 18 YO bint and then threatening to bin perfectly good people because they can't pass some mythical fitness level that has no impact on their operational employment.
Better yet, wrapping it up in the blanket of 'operational necessity' to stifel any cries of 'foul' when it comes to the gender gap - surley (and I notice its advocates ignore this point) if the FT is all about ops it should be same standard for all regardless of age and sex?

Call me Mr Picky but I thought it was all about Airpower rather than tight vests and hanging around with other sweaty blokes - an Airforce rather than an audition for 'YMCA the musical' if you will. ;)

[wg13_dummy]

they can't pass some mythical fitness level that has no impact on their operational employment.


Aircrew. Due to the nature of the job, a basic level of fitness may mean the difference between found dead not far from your wreckage because you've jacked it in or being able to E&E and recover out of harms way. I'm not on about Bravo 20 stuff, just a bit of physical robustness.

Groundcrew. Because our Armed Forces are tiny, over stretched etc, anyone could be called upon to carry out other duties away from their own comfort zone. Basic fitness may not only save your own skin but more importantly, someone elses. Do I need to spell it out?

The CoC need to know that the blokes and birds below them are at least at a basic level of fitness to be able to deploy. The new buzz word being 'duty of care'. Old school being able to carry out your job without having a seizure.

[An Teallach]

Biff as in 'on the biff', as in 'biff chit - sick chit, on the sick'.

Interesting. One wonders at the etymology: Whether one became sick from biffing the wrong class of ladies and got a biff chit and a few pills of White Mercury.

[airborne_artist]

It's interesting to compare this thread with the Joining the Mil as a Pilot thread. Time after time wannabees who are hoping for a free ATPL are shot down by the old and bold who rightly tell them they are military occifers first, and aircrew second.

Read this thread and it's clear that that some in the RAF see themselves as the uniformed wing of EasyVirgin and not much more. I love the threat "what do you want working aircraft or fit blokes, because we can't do both"...tell that to the Marines ;)

[OCCWMF]

Seems to me that the biggest problem is the lack of quality, modern facilities at RAF stations. You have to make it accessible. The majority of people take the easy option. Take the Lincolnshire clutch for example: if you don't live at Cranwell, you need to drive up to an hour (from larger frontline stations, to use a 1980 vintage pool). If you want a fitter, more physical Air Force then invest the money in encouraging them to get fit. Yes, it costs money to run a pool, a gym, tennis courts, running track, pitches etc, and yes (beancounters may struggle here) it does not generate measurable financial benefit but it generates fitter, better motivated, healthier airpeople (yuk). And don't throw it open to Joe public to try and make/save money. Keep it for the Air Force and dependents. You have a captive audience of about 5000 people right there. It's not like the rural locations of which the RAF is so fond have the support facilities for the extra people. (And don't forget the Med centre and dentist while we're here)

Compare and contrast the facilities available to US Air Force personnel and their families with what we have (next time you're on det and you can spare some time from the JPA actuals paperwork at the end of your day.)

:* Bobbins

[Chicken Leg]

Maple

You can't find time to do any phys, but you can find the time to sit at your computer and write 758 entries on PPRune. Talk about fitting a stereotype!

as its a RAF test they are about as well quallified to talk on the subject as I am about the correct procedures for storming field defences

It's a beep test, believe it or not, some of us might have done that too. :rolleyes: Remind me, do you have to actually have to run to make level 8 point whatever? :ugh:

[insty66]

Southbound.
....and I knew a top bloke, fit as billy-o, ran every day, got knocked down by a truck!
It's never totally black and white.
There are very few people in this thread arguing about being fit, the issue is how is our employer going to help us achieve the goals it has set?

[BellEndBob]

It should start from day one. I have just visited a training estblishment in the UK and could not believe the number of fat knackers who have just, allegedly, come out of IOT. WTF is going on? Some of them look like they have done 2 tours at Brize Norton already.:eek:

Watched the Royal Marines on ITN last night demonstrating courage and fitness. Hats off lads. No sound of a single aircraft overhead.....Still, god help the Taliban if they ever venture into OTA E.:E

[Chicken Leg]

the issue is how is our employer going to help us achieve the goals it has set?

Maybe you can start by helping yourself. You don't even need to buy any trainers, you can get them from the stores.;)

[wg13_dummy]

the issue is how is our employer going to help us achieve the goals it has set?



Surely thats why you have Officers in the RAF isn't it?


*-heres the problem, you find the solution-*

[Maple 01]

You see CL, this is the funny thing about 'tinernet you make asumptions about people you don't know. assuming you're making a general point rather than trying for a cheap shot against an individual, what do ypu know about the RAF that gives you the vision to write about an organisation you haven't served in (I'm assuming there too) with more authority than us old blokes who have done a few years?

so we're not the Army/Marines - big deal

[airborne_artist]

OCCWMF - I'm old enough to remember (and have a copy in the loft) of the RCAF 5BX publication:

"The diversity of work assignments, combined with lack of adequate gymnasium facilities at many of our stations makes it difficult to schedule formal physical training periods for all our personnel. The 5BX Plan puts physical fitness within reach of every member of the RCAF."

You can down load the first edition (1960) here (http://www.adam.com.au/wedesign/5bx.zip) and the 3rd (1975) here (http://www.adam.com.au/wedesign/5bx_plan.zip).

[wg13_dummy]

Maple01. But you agree you are still in a military organisation, right?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Whilst us light blue types may have issues sorting out our fitness when it comes to proper remuneration it would seem we have no equals :D

Suggest you filthy brown jobs have a look at

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=267172

as it proves the point nicely I feel :p

[RETDPI]

I do recall one of my branch in GW1 times arriving in Saudi -electing to go for a run round the airfield and never returning. Death by dehydration.
A lesson there somewhere.
N.B. the term Crab comes from the Navy who originally , because of our uniform colour termed us CrabFATS.
Wear your name with pride!

[wg13_dummy]

Difference is, Seldom, the issue with flying pay is down to MoD and a lack of forcefulness on the part of the higher echelons of the Army not a bunch of salad dodgers whining that they have to at least pretend they are a part of a military force. ;)

[formertonkaplum]

Jointery is all about the RAF doing your job for you. FACT

I have never seen a dumb-F**K Squaddie let loose fixing multi-million pound aircraft so where is the JOINTERY pay back?

I have an idea. We can all bring something to this forum, why don't you clowns go dig a hole and add SILENCE.

You do the BASIC neanderthol fighting stuff (for which you may have to run around a little), we'll maintain Technologically advanced machines (for which we don't have to run much, but use our core skill:- BRAINS).

FTP

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

No Wg,

Seems to me we are all being asked to lose a few pounds, us light blue types can manage that quite easily with a few shuttle runs where as you guys are facing a major lifestyle change.................

Now just run it by me who's got it right and who's got it wrong :p

[wg13_dummy]

Jointery is all about the RAF doing your job for you. FACT

I have never seen a dumb-F**K Squaddie let loose fixing multi-million pound aircraft so where is the JOINTERY pay back?

I have an idea. We can all bring something too this forum, why don't you clowns work go dig a hole and add SILENCE.

You do the BASIC neanderthol fighting stuff (for which you may have to run around a little), we'll maintain Technologically advanced machines (for which we don't have to run much, but use our core skill- BRAINS).

FTP


With a reply like that, you'd barely make the grade for the Pioneer Corps.

I take it you are fat and break into a sweat at the thought of walking across the hangar?

You might find that the non-RAF blokes posting on here are either RM, RN or Army pilots or technicians. Stick that in your Ginsters and eat it lardy.

[Maple 01]

A little harsh on our brown brethren I feel tonks old chap, basically illustrates the problem, we are not brown, they are not blue, and jumping up and down and demanding 'we're all infantry now' will only get backs up. when/if they can do our jobs perhaps we should consider meeting them half way?

To answer WGs question, A4 G5 Z5 undertaking business for HM, so no, no longer mil - must stop saying 'we' but after 22 years its a hard habit to break

[South Bound]

WG13, I'm with you fella. Funny that the REMEs attached to AAC Regts can maintain the standard at the same time as supporting ops and generating aircraft....

[Maple 01]

See your point SB, an aircraft is an aircraft isn't it :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[wg13_dummy]

Quite right, SouthBound.

Fair one Maple but some members of the RAF seem to forget they are servicemen and think that screaming they will get their own way. Didn't think thats how it works in the services?


No Wg,

Seems to me we are all being asked to lose a few pounds, us light blue types can manage that quite easily with a few shuttle runs where as you guys are facing a major lifestyle change.................

Now just run it by me who's got it right and who's got it wrong


Some in the AAC are I agree. The AAC has a lot to learn about aids to retention.

The RAF may be able to lose a few pounds but judging by the comments on here, I doubt it will be with minimum fuss.

[wg13_dummy]

See your point SB, an aircraft is an aircraft isn't it

Apache is just a WMIK isn't it? :rolleyes:

But a Puma is obviously a hi tech, cutting edge piece of aviation hardware.......

[Wader2]

A_A OCCWMF - I'm old enough to remember (and have a copy in the loft) of the RCAF 5BX publication:

Mine is not in the loft and my early 60's version has a XBX plan as well for the women.

Funny old thing, but 40 years ago the RCAF realised women were different.

Wonder if anyone else has noticed?

[Maple 01]

Apache is just a WMIK isn't it?
Presumably why tecs were 'borrowed' off the RAF then......AAC told to leave them alone and let them get on with the job IIRC?

But a Puma is obviously a hi tech, cutting edge piece of aviation hardware.......

well a Tornado is, as is a Typhoon, as is a C-130 etc - but hey! no need for serious proper maint, we can send all the lads off for phys instead - wg says its OK

Come on, do your comparisons on a level playing field!

[Chicken Leg]

I have never seen a dumb-F**K Squaddie let loose fixing multi-million pound aircraft so where is the JOINTERY pay back?

I have an idea. We can all bring something too this forum, why don't you clowns work go dig a hole and add SILENCE.


(for which we don't have to run much, but use our core skill- BRAINS).


Let me get this right. The above sentences are posted by someone trying to display their superior brain power?

Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. :D
Once again, priceless!

[formertonkaplum]

well a Tornado is, as is a Typhoon, as is a C-130 etc - but hey! no need for serious proper maint, we can send all the lads off for phys instead - wg says its OK

Come on, do your comparisons on a level playing field!


Well Said MAPLE.

WIG13 Dummy; As it happens I a do like a Ginsters (in preference to the Fodder given in Pack-ups mainly OOA), I am not overweight and I am medically incapable of sweating. Oh, and I have never failed an RAF FT at the current requirements. I merely do not associate why we are AGAIN having to raise our levels on the FT?

We are busy people (and I realise we are not alone). However, 99% of the RAF (excluding the medically downgraded) are quite capable of FULLY performing their respective duties. They are therefore, FIT FOR PURPOSE.

Where do you stop raising the bar too? The RM's do 28 Miles in 8 Hours or something equivacal, as a final test. Under the perscribed 'WORST CASE SITUATION', should all Military Personnel be able to do that in case they find themselves deployed with Marines?

Hell, just post an SAS PT instructor to every Service unit and encompass us all into the SF mantle.

[Lomon]

There is often more to it than just PEd.

1. Fitness will never prevail while the messes (like the one at which I am foced to pay for) are contracted to provide 7000 calories per day.

Granted I don't eat there, you get fed up of chips, hash browns, waffles, croquettes, with pies or burgers every day, but not everyone wants to pay over £100 per month for food of that quality.

2. Apathy of PEd staff's. Working at a small unit with no PEd flight of our own, It is a 2 hour drive each way to use the RAF Gym, that means a full workking day to attend the fitness test. We have a small gym here, but the PEd staff refuse to come here to run the tests as it is not a good use of their time (although it is OK for the 40 staff here to have to spend a day out of the office to go to them)

3. Is the beep test a fair measure? I know of some people who can complete the London Marathon, yet cannot pass the test because they slow down too much on the turns.

4. The Navy are probably laughing anyway, as they have a right to 2 hours PEd per week during the working day (at least according to a big poster on a Navy base I occaisionally visit,) and who cares what the Army think, after all they weren't recruited for their intellectual capacity anyway:E

[formertonkaplum]

I agree with all you say, well said.

Against fitness we are not, but the manner in which it is and we are having it served.

FTP

[airborne_artist]

Hell, just post an SAS PT instructor to every Service unit

Quite funny - no establishment for PTIs in 21/22/23 - we didn't need anyone to motivate us/show us how to get fit - we did it of our own accord ;)

[Wader2]

Seems that how the 3 times per week is implemented will be down to individual units. Some might opt for 3 formal sessions, some might opt for one formal session and two voluntary.

The latter at least has to advantage of flexibility albeit difficult to monitor except on trust. The formal session also offers advantages as the fitness test will include press ups and sit ups. Formal gymwork will ensure that these are improved gradually and avoid the overweight/back-back problems endemic in sudden semi-annual testing.

The '50-minutes' may also be flexible. One unit may opt for a 50 minute sweat session - you need 20 minutes before you enter a weigh loss regime. Another may aim to have PE down time limited to 50 min including travel, changing and showering.

I would almost guess that units without facilities would Swan it :)

[cockneyrock]

No worries, just tell us which airframe you don't want tomorrow for CAS/transport etc, oh hang-on, silly me, I expect a bit of a private life, should have know we'd all transfered to the inf
Change the record mate! Jesus, it's not just about airframe serviability, it is about manpower and time management. Are you telling me that Techies arrive at work and work solidly until cease work with absolutely no time for breaks or leave? I don't think so. The Stn Cdr decrees that personnel will conduct training at allocated periods, or, he decrees that the Chain of Command is to plan periods for fitness trg into the manpower plan. In doing so, he accepts that some other areas may suffer. It is his call on direction from above.
Lets face it, our levels aren't exactly hard. Just look at the requirement by comparison:
Army Aged 29 or under:
Male MSFT level 10.2, 44 Press ups, 50 sit ups
Female MSFT level 8.1, 21 Press ups, 50 sit ups
Navy Aged 29 or under:
Male MSFT level 9.03
Female MSFT level 6.07
RAF Aged 29 or under:
Male MSFT level 9.10, some press ups and sit ups
Female MSFT level 7.02, some press ups and sit ups
I wouldn't be suprised if the Navy requirement goes up soon.

[ZH875]

Are you telling me that Techies arrive at work and work solidly until cease work with absolutely no time for breaks or leave?

The answer for a lot of units is YES, ask how much leave is being carried forward, and why!

Techies usually manage a quick 'break' of 10 mins, whilst drinking coffee and filling in paperwork, which is not quite enough time to run down the gym and back.

Depending where you are in the techie food chain, others have to work harder to cover those on leave, or you find yourself catching up when you get back, because there is no-one else available to do your job.

[Wader2]

The answer for a lot of units is YES, ask how much leave is being carried forward, and why!

Techies usually manage a quick 'break' of 10 mins, whilst drinking coffee and filling in paperwork, which is not quite enough time to run down the gym and back.

Depending where you are in the techie food chain,

A new slant on Leaning perhaps.

[cockneyrock]

The answer for a lot of units is YES, ask how much leave is being carried forward, and why!

Techies usually manage a quick 'break' of 10 mins, whilst drinking coffee and filling in paperwork, which is not quite enough time to run down the gym and back.

Depending where you are in the techie food chain,

My heart bleeds and I am sure there is some truth in that statement. However, if the Chain of Command dictates that there is to be down time for phys, the over worked techies need not worry as,like true military personnel, they will do as they are told. The it is up to the their lords and masters to manage the roster etc and accept any reduction in output.

Having said that, studies have shown that people who take regular exercise and generally healthing in body and mind and able to cope with stress etc so there might not be any change in output as people wrok better?

[wg13_dummy]

I hope the RAF do bring in this new reigime and stick to their guns about sacking fatties.

Just another reason to dispand the crabs.

'Utterly, utterly useless'.


You lot would whine at anything that made you work out of your comfort zone. The rest of the Armed Forces call those types civvies. ;)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Wg,

As I previously briefed fella visit here if you want to see some real whining and bleating................bunch of girls and not one of them prepared to stand up and be counted..........waste of bandwidth and should be pulled immediately :rolleyes:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=267172

[wg13_dummy]

As opposed to the crabs who are not prepared to stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down and be counted?

After all, thats pretty much what the RAF FT is isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Chicken Leg]

I have never seen so many 'reasons' to remain unhealthy in my life. The main 'reason' seems to be that there is not enough time in the day. Well, I work on an RAF Station in a mixed service unit which is without doubt one of the busiest units in allof Her Majesty's Forces. We are all extremely busy, but I can assure you that not a single Technician/stacker/admin type is any busier than me. I don't have any breaks, I eat my lunch at my desk and my working day is typically 0815 - 1730. I also have a 40min commute either side of that. My working day is not untypical of my colleagues and yet we all, including our light blue types, manage to find time for phys. Even if it is in our own time.

If you want to stay unhealthy and unfit that's one thing, but don't make up lame excuses to justify your lardness.

[wg13_dummy]

They'll be gobbing off that it contravenes their human rights next.
Bunch of crimpoline wearing civvies.
Bloody embarrassment.

[Gnd]

Just a thought, if we were all joint would we all have to do these tests?:rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

G:mad: d, all this talk of the physicals makes me tired.

I must go and do some PT, Egyptian style.:)

[Gnd]

Oh Cesar, how I admire your style!

Quoted Cleopatra!!!!

[insty66]

Maybe you can start by helping yourself. You don't even need to buy any trainers, you can get them from the stores.

Thanks but I prefer something of a higher quality!:ok:

I understand that our sister services love a good bit of crab baiting but.........no-one is saying we're not needed to be fit:ugh:

What we want to know is how does the RAF plan to give everyone a fair shot at achieving the goals it sets (we don't set the levels).

wg 13 dummy: I guess you didn't get your preferred user name of Crab baiter in chief:rolleyes:
Re-read the thread, there is not an underlying current of "we can get away with being unfit" Most are sceptical about being given the chance to undertake the training in the same way the other two services seem (to me at least) are allowed to.

ps 12 posts on this thread alone today!!:D No wonder you can get down the gym!!!:hmm:

[wg13_dummy]

What we want to know is how does the RAF plan to give everyone a fair shot at achieving the goals it sets (we don't set the levels).

wg 13 dummy: I guess you didn't get your preferred user name of Crab baiter in chief
Re-read the thread, there is not an underlying current of "we can get away with being unfit" Most are sceptical about being given the chance to undertake the training in the same way the other two services seem (to me at least) are allowed to.

ps 12 posts on this thread alone today!! No wonder you can get down the gym!!!


One would hope that the officers who are paid the money to manage and lead actually do their job and come up with the solution (I'm not on about airship types but Station level and down). The other two services can, why can't the RAF?

There does appear to be a lot of comments on here from crabs who are saying they don't need to keep fit or don't want to. Re read the thread again.


12 posts today means I can manage my day effectively. - Work - lunch, bait crabs - work - time spare for phys - work, bait crabs- home. ;)

[Gnd]

I think that WG is trying to say, we are all in the same boat (or plane I suppose) the rest of us manage and the Army and Navy are undermanned to boot!;)

[wg13_dummy]

Thats right Gnd. It's just it always appears the crabs shout the loudest.

They are the equivalent of a sixth form common room.

[Gnd]

Did a lot of Phiz in my 6th form common rm:8

[insty66]

But what has failed to be put across here, is just how much of a god flying is in the RAF. (cant think why!:} )
It will take a brave man who is willing to put his mens fitnesss before the flying programme and yes the choice is that stark a lot of the times.
As for undermanning well aren't we all?
wg. 14 now, by my reckoning your lunch "hour" began at 1123 and ended at 1258 must be nice. Here's a tip, get a beer log off and speak to the family.:ok:

[wg13_dummy]

Crabs problem is a cultural one.

Everyone is 'too busy' or can come up with a semi eloquent justification why they cannot do a bit of basic phys.

The army has a similar problem but it is usually from a few of the toms.

[ZH875]

I wanted to join the Army, but I passed the entrance exam.....:)

I did 22 laps of the football field last night, then I woke up, wow what a nightmare that was, another beer anyone?

[C130 Techie]

Wg13

Please don't tar us all with the same brush. There are many of us Crabs who are fit and make every effort to stay that way.

[wg13_dummy]

Of course, C130 techie.

Just tuning my posts to the crabs who have posted on here thats all. ;)

[Chicken Leg]

It will take a brave man who is willing to put his mens fitnesss before the flying programme

To quote cockneyrock's statement earlier, change the bloody record. It's not either or. The other two services manage both perfectly well and I think that the one thing that we're all in agreement on this thread is that all 3 services are damn busy. You light blue types are not working any harder than us Pongo's or the Fisheads.

Let's face it, you've got a lot more peeps per frame than the rest of us. Manage your time better, that's all it takes.

Don't suppose you'll like hearing the above para so standing back for the predictable barrage of.................................................the same argument. 'Yeah, but what about the flying programme'.

[wg13_dummy]

Manage your time better, that's all it takes.

Thats what it boils down to.

As I was suggesting earlier, isn't that what the Officers job is? Management I think it's called.

No doubt lots of posts of 'but I didn't join up to manage people, I joined up to fly'.

F**k off to EasyJet then.



Chicken, check your PMs.

[formertonkaplum]

The three services have individual roles to play in the greater scheme. All this talk 'We have time' sounds great. But maybe we don't all know each others jobs as well as we think and so assumptions can not be made.

WIG 13 DULL.... do you have a life as you seem to have been on here all day? When did you manage to save the planet and get time for Phys ?

[JessTheDog]

Whatever happened to that "too fat to fight" video, where the soldier on the vibrating belt machine moved the belt downwards for some machine-enhanced pleasure? You really had to see it.

Perhaps there is a "third way":

Racing snakes and gym freaks - stop proselytising about racing and gyming so much.

Fatsters - eat less pies, exercise more and exhibit a little shame.

[wg13_dummy]

The three services have individual roles to play in the greater scheme.


They do but the comparisons for the aviation side of each is similar. Pilots, techs and support.

The other two services seem to be able to aviate and maintain a professional level of fitness, why do the crabs seem to make it such a drama?

On here all day?

Naa. Sorted the world out before lunch time then spent the rest of it fishing. ;)

[JessTheDog]

The other two services seem to be able to aviate and maintain a professional level of fitness, why do the crabs seem to make it such a drama?

Most of the matelots I met preferred the bar over the gym any time. I also vaguely recall being told there was no RN fitness test a few years or so ago, and that this was a recent innovation. However I imagine swimming may be of some use.

As for the Army, well that's the Army for you! :ugh: ;)

[LFFC]

Sigh :rolleyes: - I really didn't want to take the bait, but I couldn't resist answering this:

wg13_dummy
As I was suggesting earlier, isn't that what the Officers job is? Management I think it's called.

No doubt lots of posts of 'but I didn't join up to manage people, I joined up to fly'.


I didn't join up to be a manager, I joined up to be a leader! Sadly I expect you don't understand the difference.

[wg13_dummy]

I used the civvy term 'management' so you crabs would understand it.

Ok then, lead from the front (not in the air as usual) and make the directive work.

Or as I suspect, you'll just bitch and winge about it. Great example to set to the troops eh?

Problem > Solution.

[JessTheDog]

Jointry and all that means we all work together a bit more now and RAF types do become a burden if they are fatties.

Now, that is simply sizeist! The fuller-figured should not be discriminated against! When I joined I thought that the Army acted as bearers for when us sub-Adonises became weary. Also, jointery is surely a matter of self-interested altrusim. Carry fattie if you need an airborne lift. Stack him with the sandbags or as food if you do not....

[JessTheDog]

Bitching and whinging is the perfect example to set the troops. For when they do so, you can claim to be an inspiration!

[wg13_dummy]

Bitching and whinging is the perfect example to set the troops. For when they do so, you can claim to be an inspiration!


:E :E :E

[JessTheDog]

At the risk of slipping into seriousness, you cannot create a single ethos for fitness throughout the 3 services.

The Army will always be fitter, it is what they do. The infantry train like madmen and the other units have a soldier-first mindset.

The Navy and the RAF are sailors and aviators/technicians first and always will be. Fitness is important but technical ability and professional knowledge are more important.

Trying to ram home the Army culture of physical fitness will not work in the RN and RAF. Churchill said something along the lines of "fighting air groundsmen" at the same time the RAF regiment was set up in WW2. Fitness should be role-specific although there should be a reasonable baseline. If the MoD think that Bloggs the techie should routinely pick up a rifle and man a sangar or be ready to march with full PLCE then they are flirting with disaster. That is not his job - although, in extremity, Bloggs should be able to save his own skin and maybe that of the man next to him.

[wg13_dummy]

If the MoD think that Bloggs the techie should routinely pick up a rifle and man a sangar

Due to the lack of man power, that is a reality unfortunately.


although, in extremity, Bloggs should be able to save his own skin and maybe that of the man next to him.

As should any serviceman or woman.

Proving a basic level of fitness goes some way of assuring the system that they are capable of that.

Extremity a few years ago may have been a rarity and been nothing more than the threat of Crazy Ivan over running the perimeter fence of Wildenrath but it is a more regular and real factor nowadays due to Tonys Terrific Tours around the globe.

I don't think anyone is asking the RAF to conduct a CFT or run an assault course every week.

Think about the savings. Not as much material will be required for uniforms. ;)

[TonkaEngO]

wg13 dummy

Whilst not wishing to add to a debate that has obviously more than run its course - all I can add is that for you to have posted so many items on this one thread, with your last being at midnight!, get a life you sad individual.

[Mad_Mark]

If the MoD think that Bloggs the techie should routinely pick up a rifle and man a sangar

Due to the lack of man power, that is a reality unfortunately.

Due to the lack of manpower in the RAF, if Bloggs the Techie had to do that you would have no AT, SH, CAS or ISTAR assets in theatre right now. They tried to get Bloggs the Techie and some of his mates to do just such in Basrah but, fortunately, common sense prevailed and it was realised that they were more vitally employed doing their own job, i.e. getting frames into the air.

And please do not go comparing a Lynx, Sea King, Merlin or even an Apache to the far more complex aircraft that make up the majority of the RAF inventory.

I do not slag off our green or dark blue brethren for carrying out their role in the military their own way, as I do not pretend to think I know how they should operate. Likewise I do not expect those same people to try to dictate to us how we should carry out our roles. We all have a part to play in the big picture and we all have our own ways and needs to play that part.

The sooner it is understood that it is a tiny minority of RAF personnel that fail the RAFT and that the majority in here are not complaining of about the test but are discussing the alleged plans to introduce compulsory PT sessions during the working day (or were until WG - who obviously has no real life, girlfriend, wife or family - started acting like a 13 year old girl with his bitch-fest). It is simply being pointed out that, unlike our Army brethren (who's primary job it is to be on the ground on the front line and so PT is a part of their normal days routine), many in the RAF have full shifts doing extremely technical work and, unless in the Rocks, do not need to be infantrymen. If I wanted to be an infantryman I would have joined the Army. If I wanted to go to sea I would have joined the RN. I wanted to fly hi-tech military aircraft and therefore I joined the RAF. Horses for courses.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[South Bound]

Crikey, we in the light blue have an over-inflated opinion of ourselves. An Army helicopter is just as complicated (AH potentially more so with sensor integration and weapon systems, combined with relative inexperience of type) as an RAF one, and I respectifully suggest that it is the helo boys and girls that are most entitled to whine about being busy.

Comparing like for like, the Army manage to generate aircraft and maintain appropriate levels of fitness. It is my perception that the RAF generally do the same in the Helo world, so just who is it that is whining here - surely not the extremely over-worked and over-deployed fast-jet world.

Bored now, get on with it people, show a backbone, demonstrate some leadership and inspire your airmen to want to get fit. Find time for them to do that, negotiate downtime if possible - don't say it isn't possible without trying first.

[Pontius Navigator]

Many years ago, on an operation, we were doing our best to get acclamatised and and hydrated (sunbathing and bar proping) so the boss decided that some sport was called for.

Aircrew duly assembled for Volley Ball - not too demanding and deemed safe.

Half way through the first set one super fit Nav jumped, did a double handed wham over the net but lost his footing on the wet painted asphalt.

As he crashed backward he put his hands behind him and broke both risks. As we were running at 1:1 aircraft crew ratio 25% of the force was immediately f:mad: d.

We caancelled the volley ball competition and instead concentrated on sea survival drills several times per day. The Marine craft even took us out to use dinghies once as well.:}

[cornish-stormrider]

So exactly where are them shiny apaches deployed to at the mo??? anywhere? or are they still sitting in hangers.........

Puma helo = days of flying to cock-all fixing

Tonka / Typhoon etc = billions of hours fixing for every flying hour used

Its not hard mathematics now is it, I'm all for fitness and having a bit of fun in life but until the PTB give us the facilities and the time then it will be an issue. I bet every lardy in the raf would jump (lethargically) at the chance of a spot of playtime during the day, it might cost some flying time and would certainly impact the maintenance times.

Every lardy techie (me included) went thru Halton and/or Cosford and was gotten to a halfway reasonable standard of running about like a **** and its only after, when covering for the fitness freaks etc that it slipped, due mainly to no proper lunches, no organised phis and the loss of the footy goal/volleyball net due to upset pti's

Give each sqn an hour of playtime 3 times a week and I bet you £20 will have a much healthier and fitter team.

The bottom line is that it is never going to happen so we will just be given the target and told ........get on with it.

Would any brown job care for a double fcu change and accociated EGR's at 2 am on a windswept pan coz the jet died there and needs to be fixed before it can fly home??

Nah they all be tucked up together sharing body heat and admiring each others muscles...........

Now its legal!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Cornish bloke :ugh: :ugh:

Whilst I rarely step in to defend our brown job compatriots......

"So exactly where are them shiny apaches deployed to at the mo??? anywhere? or are they still sitting in hangers........."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6269613.stm

Try looking at this and then offer an apology to all the very brave AH guys risking their lives in theatre.

Edited to reflect the apology of said cornish chap:D

[I've_got a traveller]

Easy Seldom,
I'm sure Mr Cornish knows he has dropped a clanger, we in light blue can't be seen to be bickering amongst ourselves now can we?

Not in front of the children!

:{

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I'm sure Mr Cornish knows he has dropped a clanger,

Although, actually, they call them pasties.

[cornish-stormrider]

My humble apologies to anyone I have insulted. I don't deny that the marines action is bravery far beyond the call of duty. It wasn't my intention to imply that there aren't brave men and women from all three services risking their lives in ****ty places for very little reward. The point I am trying to make was against the implication that that SH and AT takes as much maintenance as fast jet. Also the fact that Grunt soldiering is yes physical, demandind and dangerous at times but you don't need an in depth knowlege of machinery

Okay I accept the point that I didn't make it clearly and as far as I knew the Multi Billion Pound Apache moneywaste programme was still mired in Blighty (Much like the Merlins of 28 sqn were for so long) but that was not the point of my last reply.

As to the pasty eating feckwit, I resemble that remark. Gotta go work calls....... Again

[South Bound]

Didn't say that the SH and AT take as much maint as fast jet - that is irrelevant. No doubt that fast jet require more maint per flying hour, but establishments are balanced accordingly and they fly considerably fewer hours. ROUGHLY, we are all as busy as each other, and to try and differentiate between types to find excuses for not being fit is complete and utter tosh.

What I said was the SH engrs are working just as hard (I would argue harder because of frequency of deployment) as anyone else, hence have the same time restrictions on being able to keep themselves fit. Anyone sat at Coningsby or Leuchars fantasising that they are the most over-worked people in the RAF are kidding themselves.

[Fast but Safe]

Guys/Gals,

Can anyone tell me what Odiham have up and running regards to compulsory PT? I've heard rumors and stories but wanted to hear it from someone who's actually doing it. If they have a set up running, it would be interesting to hear if it would be practical at the other bases we serve at.

Thanks,

FbS

[effortless]

Too Fat to Fight! So which of you buggers has been looking up my service record? :eek:

[Wader2]

Found it buried in their website:

The aims of the OPTS is to engage all personnel on Stn in 3 hrs physical trg per week and to raise the fitness levels of all personnel on the Stn.
The system is rum on a 2 weekly format to allow personnel a choice of programme and is expected to be carried out during both work and personal time.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Guys/Gals,

Can anyone tell me what Odiham have up and running regards to compulsory PT? I've heard rumors and stories but wanted to hear it from someone who's actually doing it. If they have a set up running, it would be interesting to hear if it would be practical at the other bases we serve at.

Thanks,

FbS

I believe at Odious the decision on compulsory PT has been delegated to squadron commanders, hence the reason RMS (Supply Sqn for those who remember the proper RAF) has sent out a memo informing all of compulsory PT starting next Wednesday, but curiously it quotes 'QR1051' (look it up) as the authority for enforcing this move.:ooh:

I believe QR430(b) is the QR 'those in charge' should have been quoting.:rolleyes:

[South Bound]

Can't believe people think they need QRs to back up an instruction to do something......:ugh:

[Chicken Leg]

Cornish

You silly silly boy. If you're going to get involved in a debate, don't make yourself out to be an ill informed idiot. If you had stated 2 years ago that the Apache was a shiny waste of money that did nothing but sit in hangars gathering dust, you might have got some broad agreement; even from us Pongo's.

But, I can only assume that you have had your head in the sand for the last 12 - 18 months as the Apache has been very successfully deployed and as has been pointed out by some of your better educated colleagues, it has been an absolute life saver. Well, for our boys and girls anyway :E

Oh, and by the way. The Technicians and crews all do PT too.

I'm sure that those same Technicians would love to show you how basic and untechnical the Apache is too. :rolleyes:

[cornish-stormrider]

Yep, two years in cornwall will do that to a person, I'm so far out of touch now I wouldn't recognise an apache if it fell on me. I'm very glad to hear that the damn thing works though..........

Neither am I disputing the fitness of those involved, the only point I am trying to make is that .................

Oh Bolox to it, I'm off for a pasty and several beers. I don't have to worry about some poxy beep test anyway, If you ever get this far west try the local beer. As to the comment about an ill informed idiot, yeah I'd go along with that..

[AonP]

Interesting article in Stars and Stripes recently which includes the fitness test standards for all 4 US Services. The USAF ones seem to be comparable to he new RAF ones.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=50005

[Op_Twenty]

Flew 54 fast jet hours last month. Not OOA, but home here. I promise I will get to the gym at some point, I try to hit the gym when I can, normally at weekends, but I'm lucky as I do have weekends, unlike our bros out on ops. (BTW - I didn't choose to do those hours, I was tasked, it just makes getting to the gym harder 'cos generally 'I is tired') Lame excuse I know, and I don't mind doing the new fitness tests but you can't ask people to improve their fitness and then not give them the chance to get themselves fitter. Starting to rant, apologies.

Reactionary air force as always...

[vecvechookattack]

You could always go to the Gym before work...or after work...or inbetween Day and Night flying....or you could run to work...or cycle to work...or even walk to work

[VinRouge]

And end up like this dude?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SPORT/11/03/athletics.shay.ap/index.html

[cornish-stormrider]

Oh this thread is back. Here's a lesson. No-one gets out of life alive. Do the best you can. Make your choices and live by them (or die by them).

Next sunday after church I am going to have a drink or few in memory (and thanks) of all my friends, colleagues, and troops I never met. It kind of sorts out ones priorities..........

Stay safe out there and keep a wary eye for the fun police.

[Griz]

Why are people complaining? It's not as if the levels are difficult. If an overweight 40 somat like me stops at level 10 simply coz he's playing football later that evening then it can't be very demanding to make 8.3 or whatever. If you pass the test then I'm sure most Stn Cdr's won't give a toss if you've done 2 hrs or whatever a week!
If the wife wants time with you then make sure it's horizontal gymnastics and don't be the lazy one! ;)

[SRENNAPS]

Griz,

Overweight, over 40, certainly over 8.3 and probably over 10, plays football (poofs game compared to rugby) and still plays horizontal games with the wife.

You’re the man!!!!!

How’s the mirror doing cause I’ll bet you wear that out too.

[GreenWings]

Interesting stats for the USAF Males, 25-29. And they only test once per year.

Men
45 to 47 push-ups in one minute.
42 to 43 sit-ups in one minute.

These are above the new RAF requirements

Maximum 35-inch abdominal circumference. <= Not explicitly measured for the RAF, though I understand that BMI measurements are taken at Fitness Test time by PEd staffs.

1.5-mile run in 12:55 to 13:36.

Not sure how the run times compare to the bleep test in terms of effort.

[buoy15]

Having lost 5 associates trying to keep fit at lunch time to achieve the fitness test, perhaps a few posters in the gym
"Are you dying to keep fit?" or "A personal fitness programme you could die for" - just ask your personal trainer / life coach / w@nker / expert :p

[blogger]

How can they say YOU WILL DO PT in personal time. Sorry 2 fingers is my reply to that.

I live off base I commute in every day. Working time directive if I am tried and crash my car then I will sue the pants off the RAF.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=491686&in_page_id=1770

And don't say working time directive does not apply..

Once it was no gay folks in the forces.......they sued
no pregnant females.........they sued

[Al R]

Bouy said something about: 'associates'

:confused:

[Al R]

Once it was no gay folks in the forces.......they sued
no pregnant females.........they sued

big girl's blouses........ they sued
whining mummy's boys ....... they sued

[blogger]

Al R

What are you trying to reply with?

Gays and pregnant women should not be in the forces? Come on spit it out!

[Al R]

Don't assume you're worthy of being bracketed with homosexuals, lesbians and pregnant mothers. They fought hard for the right to get where they are by arguing that had as much to offer 'us' as the next person. By contrast, you're fighting for the right to do less.

You need to realise that sure.. you have human rights, but being part of a disciplined military organisation means you have responsibilities too. You knew what the craic was when you joined up. So why drag everyone else down to your apathetic level by a ridiculous implied threat to sue and undermine even further, what you clearly aren't prepared to fight and work hard for.

[Maple 01]

You knew what the craic was when you joined up.

Yawn....are you still going on with this tosh? Push off down the gym old boy there's an unmanned mirror with your name on it

Hint no RAFFT in 1983!

[Al R]

I know there wasn't, but living in the past is not always the best way forward Maple (and there's no need to be silly about things).

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Must admit considering the amount of time you must spend in the gym you do have a very impressive post average Al R :rolleyes:

[Biggus]

Al R

'....but living in the past is not always the best way forward....'

Using that logic the opinion of anyone who is no longer serving could be considered of no/little value/relevance!