Night flying in the Netherlands

[Blue Albatross]

Hi Everyone,

I know that flying VFR at night is not allowed in the Netherlands. But is it possible for a PPL to fly at night in the Netherlands in SVFR or IFR as long as he remains in VMC (BTW, I don't have an IR)?

I'm curious to find out.

Thanks,
Claython

[Mark 1]

It's the same in the UK.

It's not particularly onerous to fly IFR in VMC outside controlled airspace, or to obtain special VFR for flight in a control zone.
All you need is a night qualification and suitably equipped aircraft (and airfield).

[S-Works]

I am pretty sure the Dutch do not allow IFR flight at night without holding a full IR. I seem to recall that to fly at night you have to have a full IR and they don't allow VFR at night. Everytime I have arrived at night it has been under IFR.

[robdesbois]

It's the same in the UK.

Is it? I'm under the impression that a PPL in the UK with a night rating but no IR can fly VFR as long as conditions are VMC.

@BA
Special VFR is only for controlled airspace where VFR is not allowed - and as you rightly state, it requires VMC.

[Curtis E Carr]

There is no VFR at night in the UK.

Rule 22 refers.

[Avarell]

For PPL's in the Netherlands no IFR allowed without IR and no Night VFR allowed with any rating.
Strangely enough it is possible to obtain NQ rating on a PPL.

avarell

[BackPacker]

I'm with a flying club in NL. We can get a NVFR rating in the Netherlands without a problem. There's an agreement or understanding or something that says that if you do a Night VFR flight with an appropriately rated instructor on board, but you are the sole manipulator of the controls, then the landings on this flight can be counted towards the "solo" landings requirement for the NVFR endorsement.

Obviously since NVFR is not allowed in the Netherlands, we either go to Belgium on a VFR flightplan, or we stay in the Netherlands on an IFR flightplan on the instructors ticket.

It's a bit complicated but apparently all legal. Gives us the chance to get the NVFR endorsement at least, although we will not be able to use it in the Netherlands itself. Remaining current (1 landing at night in last 90 days before allowed to take passengers) will be virtually impossible without again taking an instructor on an IFR plan, or doing an overnight in Belgium.

[inbalance]

I believe that it is legal for a PLL with a VFRN rating to fly at night in the Netherlands, because it is ruled in JAR-FCL 1.175 b:

JAR–FCL 1.175 Circumstances in which an IR(A) is required

(a) The holder of a pilot licence (A) shall not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane
under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training,
unless the holder has an instrument rating (IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft
issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.

(b) In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted. National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.

Inbalance

[robdesbois]

So are you saying that a PPL with Night Rating and no IR/IMC rating can fly IFR at night but only if VMC prevails?
Too confusing :confused:

[S-Works]

inbalance, you are quotting JAA flight crew regs not national regulations as contained in the relevant countries air navigation order. JAA FCL is NOT the law, the LAW is the ANO.

In the Netherlands flight at night is under IFR. To fly under IFR rules in the Netherlands you require an Instrument rating. This is pretty standard accross a lot of Europe. In the UK a pilot without an Instrument rating is allowed to fly under Instrument Flight RULES provided the conditions are VMC so can fly under IFR at night with a night raing. Please understand the difference between rules and conditions.

[Blue Albatross]

Has anyone ever thought about getting AOPA to seek a change in the ANO allowing PPL's to fly in the Netherlands if they have the appropriate Night Rating?

I have my NR and want to use it. But I don't think that I should have to go to Germany or Belgium just to exercise it, plus it would mean I'm not worrying about getting back in time before SS.

Afterall, I thought the whole point of the JAA was to standardise everything and harmonise the rules....since getting my PPL all I have noticed is that the bag if worms is still the same. :-(

[BackPacker]

I think I partly know the answer.

A big chunk of the Netherlands (including EHRD, where I fly from, and EHLE where you are from) has one of the various Amsterdam TMAs (class A) hanging over it, with a floor lower than the Minimum Safety Altitude. So even if Night VFR would have been allowed in general in NL, it wouldn't be possible there - or are you really going to do NVFR at 1200 feet? I know I wouldn't.

It does leave a fair amount of room in the east and south though for which I have no explanation.

[jai6638]

Not sure why a special night rating is needed or why night VFR is prohibited! Having done several night XC's VFR with my PPL here in the US, I don't think its a big deal and does not justify placing an IFR requirment! Anyone know why this is the case ( in areas other than class A )?

Thanks

[BackPacker]

Jai, you need to read the thread carefully as there is a general (JAR-FCL) standard being discussed, and a UK exception to JAR/ICAO standards, and a Dutch exception to JAR/ICAO standards.

To the best of my knowledge, the JAR-FCL/ICAO standard:
- To fly VFR in VMC, in daylight, you need a PPL
- To fly VFR at night, in VMC, you need a Night Qualification on top of your PPL
- To file & fly IFR (in IMC or VMC, day or night doesn't matter), you need an Instrument Rating on top of your PPL.

In the Netherlands, the exact same thing applies, except that in our AIP Night VFR is forbidden in our airspace, for reasons we're trying to work out in this here forum. So any flying at night, in the Netherlands, should be done under IFR and consequently is only possible for people with an IR.

In the Netherlands we can obtain a Night Rating to go with our PPL despite the no-NVFR thing. The normal "solo" requirements from the JAR-FCL (5 solo landings & take-offs at night) are replaced by a requirement that these landings & take-offs are done with the student pilot the sole manipulator of the controls. The IR rated instructor, on whose ticket the IFR flight is conducted at night, should not have to touch the controls at all. And the five hours total flight time at night are simply done as normal dual hours, on the instructors IR ticket, under IFR. But once you get the NQ, you've got to go to another country to use it - unless you again take an IR instructor with you on an IFR flight plan.

In the UK things are way different. I hope I have this correct:
- To fly VFR in VMC, in daylight, you need a PPL
- To fly IFR in daylight, in VMC conditions, all you need is a PPL (so, yes, you can fly IFR with just a PPL, as long as you stay VMC!) (***)
- If you fly at night, you are automatically under IFR rules because the UK doesn't know the concept of Night VFR. To fly IFR, at night, in VMC, all that is required is a JAR-FCL Night Qualification on top of your PPL. I think under these conditions you are banned from certain kinds of airspace though.
- To fly in (day or night) IMC in class D, E, F & G airspace, you can get an IMC rating which can be thought of as an IR-light. This IMC rating is comparatively cheap but is a UK-only thing. It is not recognised anywhere else in the world. A NQ is required before you can get an IMC rating.
- To fly in (day or night) IMC, inside class A-C airspace, you need an IR.

(***) I hope I have this correct. I read the relevant paragraphs of my air law book, and they make a further distinction between holders of an old UK PPL and a new JAR-FCL PPL, and they also make a distinction between controlled (A-E) and uncontrolled (F-G) airspace. So don't take what I wrote automatically for granted. If you happen to be in this situation, read the official texts!

Obviously, in addition to the right license and the right kind of flight plan you also need a suitably equipped airfield and aircraft for all this!

[robdesbois]

Right this whole thread confused me somewhat, in terms of the actual definition of IFR (I couldn't really follow the idea of flying IFR in VMC :confused:).

I have it sorted in my mind now, or will do shortly. In case anyone's having similar trouble with definitions, the (UK) ANO and rules of the air is available from the CAA at http://www.caa.co.uk/cap393
IFR is defined in section 2.VI

Time for some fun reading now! :}

[BackPacker]

Both IFR and VFR are just what they say they are - rules.

The VFR rule set is based on the premise that you can look out the window to avoid other aircraft. Hence one of its rules is VMC conditions. But there's also rules on minimum height, preferred altitude/flight levels depending on your magnetic track and so forth.

The IFR rule set is NOT based on the premise that you can look out the window, but on the premise that ATC provides separation from other aircraft (with exceptions), and you yourself provide separation from terrain. So the rule set contains things like required com/nav radios, flight plans to inform ATC, different minimum height and so forth. And most countries (except, as far as I know, the UK, see my other post) require you to hold an IR before you may fly under these rules.

But you can fly under IFR rules in VMC conditions, no problem. Imagine the situation the other way around, if you could not fly IFR in VMC conditions, and you're on an airliner who happens to be flying through a scattered layer of cloud. You need to cancel IFR (become responsible for your own separation) everytime you leave the cloud, and file IFR again (ATC becomes responsible) every time you enter cloud. That would quickly become unworkable.