Low Flying

[bigflyingrob]

A big thanks to the guy in the yellow Robinson who spent a happy half hour flying at 30 feet up and down the runway at London Colneylast Sunday. He managed to stop one plane taking off and another had to go round 5 times.
A big hand of applause for getting every no fly zone we have and getting us 4noise complaints as well.
I know we are near Elstree but that does NOT make us a PFL zone. We have low wing loadings so the vortex even a Robinson generates is a real hazard.
We are right next to the Mosquito museum lads so kindly !!!! off.
Last year we had a heli land in the middle of the runway and the pilot then walked off and left it there. When asked what the !!!! he was playing at he replied he "knew it was too windy for us to fly!"
If I had been on site for that one I'd have chained the tractor to it and gone home. We are a private strip guys so it means just that. PRIVATE.
Anyone that want to come in its 129.825 or ring before hand. So far every fixed wing that's come in has behaved in an exemplary fashion and the 2 helis that asked first were perfect guests. Just the Robinsons to house train now. Must be their small rotors or something
Rob

[TheGorrilla]

Nothing a good punching wouldn't solve. :}

There are some thick, pig ignorant, arrogant, tosspots around in aviation. Many seem to fly helicopters too. :yuk:

[goflying2007]

I would well imagine given your location this would quite likely be a training flight out of Elstree and I do believe they have a yellow R22.
Maybe a phone call to Elstree (Cabair?) would be wise idea to remind them of your location, could be a new instructor on the books who is unaware of you guys.

Don't want any private fields being closed down because of other ignorant pilots.

[Monocock]

There are some thick, pig ignorant, arrogant, tosspots around in aviation. Many seem to fly helicopters too.

Blinkin' 'eck. If i'd said that Whirlybird would have come down on me from a great height. Be careful!

[BritishPPL]

That's a shame to hear, especially with all the open space around. I know your lovely location as I have a relation living at nearby Potters Bar. Indeed he has been lucky enough to fly with one of your members. I'd like to visit your strip but its too short for a PA28 - and I expect this is deliberate decision on your part !

Could the offending Robinson not use the old runways at Raydon for PFL's? I have no idea if they are in use by anyone.

Regards
BritishPPL

[RatherBeFlying]

I fly out of a heli training base and have learned to keep a sharp eye out for them, but have to say that they're quite good about announcing their intentions over the radio -- my problem is making out all the details in a complex description:\

A couple days ago, a Schweitzer 300 was in hover practice not that far from the approach end of the runway and upwind in the crosswind. Me, I'm thinking he's just a little guy, but the rotor downwash made for an interesting bounce and not very good second landing -- should have landed a bit longer.

[M609]

After seeing what happened to a Grob 115 departing when a Sea King departed from the paralel TWY (125m away) without clearence from TWR (me!), I am very careful when flying close to those pesky clattering devices....... :}
(The Grob departed in more ways then one for a couple of seconds, to put it that way.......)

[gcolyer]

I was on short finals in to Ronaldsway last year when I noticed 2 sea kings hovering over the runway about 200m from the piano keys. I was then utterly surpirsed when I was cleared to land, and even more gob smacked when I told them I was carrying out a missed approach and then told not to. After carrying out my missed approach and explaing why, it became apparent that ATC did not realise the Sea Kings where on the runway.

You gotta watch the olive drap helicopters!!!

[foxmoth]

I told them I was carrying out a missed approach and then told not to.

I don't think ATC can stop you doing a missed approach and I am surprised they told you not to, I might have expected to explain why afterwards, but the reason you had was reasonable and I am pleased to see you did not go with them telling you not to G.A.:uhoh:

[gcolyer]

At the end of the day no matter what the situation PIC has the last say. it is better to still be alive to argue the toss latter.

[Whirlybird]

Blinkin' 'eck. If i'd said that Whirlybird would have come down on me from a great height. Be careful!

Whirly has been flying all over the country in an R44 all day, and is far too tired to find out what all this is about, let alone come down on anyone from a great height.

But just wait till tomorrow.........

[A and C]

This is typical of the heilcopter mentality, last week a heilcopter turned up on a private strip that I know and hovered above the runway, the result was a fixed wing had to go around.

The fixed wing then made an aproach to the other runway and................... yes you have guessed it the helicopter moved to that runway and another go around resulted.

It is quite clear that the helicopter pilot had no idea that there was another aircraft trying to land.

The next helicopter that lands without permision or good reason will have a big chain put around the rotor head and be charged £500 a day parking, the chain will not be removed untill the fee is paid in cash.

[False Capture]

.... and be charged £500 a day ...Initially I thought that sounded excessive but then I thought about the hourly flying rate for a helicopter. :sad:

[TeeS]

I'm sorry A and C, I didn't realise that all fixed/flex wing pilots felt that way about all helicopter pilots! I am surprised non of them ever mentioned it as they were being cut out of the wreckage, loaded onto the helo and flown to hospital! :)
TeeS

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

We don't all hate all HELO jockeys. It is perhaps unfortunate, though, that such a significant proportion of k**b-ends seem to join the rotary community.

[A and C]

If you get a car towed away because it is parked on private land it will cost about £375 to £450.

On this basis £500 seems cheap, perhaps we should charge more?

[strake]

Whist the original poster has every right to complain about the helicopter at his airfield, I think some of the following comments have more than a sniff of
"there I was..." b******t about them.
I have been flying light a/c for 24 years and I have never once thought that helicopter pilots were any better or worse than the rest of us in the private flying community.
With all the threats to our sport/hobby, the last thing we need is some idiot elitism/machineism rubbish being spouted.

[Dysonsphere]

maybe some of them forget us fixed wing types like long clear straight bits to land on :ugh:

[J.A.F.O.]

I have been flying light a/c for 24 years and I have never once thought that helicopter pilots were any better or worse than the rest of us in the private flying community.
With all the threats to our sport/hobby, the last thing we need is some idiot elitism/machineism rubbish being spouted.

Hear, hear Strake. It's absolute tosh to say that helicopter pilots are idiots but fixed wing pilots must be in the right.

Live and let live chaps. If it's dangerous then tell them then and there - they may not realise - if not then shut up whining.

You'll find helicopters hovering in places for ages because helicopters are for people who like to fly but have nowhere to go. :}

[scooter boy]

Nothing a good punching wouldn't solve. :}

There are some thick, pig ignorant, arrogant, tosspots around in aviation. Many seem to fly helicopters too. :yuk:

Oh dear! Planks and Egg Whisks again!
Gorilla, your attitude would seem to be based entirely on ignorance.:=
I bet you don't have a helicopter license - ever flown in one?
It really is a totally different ball game compared to fixed wing.

The right thing to do here would be to speak to the pilot/school in question and point out better places for them to practice hovering.
Getting all aggressive doesn't help anybody.

SB

[TheGorrilla]

Yes I have flown one thanks.

I can't see what excuse this particular helicopter pilot had for behaving in the way bigflying rob described. Totally unnecessary, very inconsiderate and displayed a complete lack of awareness. Either his standard of airmanship is lousy or he/she is damn ignorant.

I thought the sky was big enough for....... Oh sod it! Why bother getting worked up about a numpty being a numpty....... :E

[Chris Royle]

I have followed this discussion with interest.
What are forumites opinions of the airmanship skills of a helicopter pilot who decides to get aloft, and then departs along the active runway, just as 3 parachutists are on final descent (50 - 100 feet up) just (approximately 50 yds) to the north of the said runway?
This took place at a nice airfield in the South West (England) recently.
We could not believe our eyes, but then both of us are not heli pilots and as such, may not be aware of the protocol involved.

[Droopystop]

As a helicopter pilot, I spend as little time on runways as possible and when I do, the hairs on my back stand on end - i am convinced the last thing I will feel is the windscreen wiper on a fixed wing remove my backside from its screen. The whole point of helicopters is that they don't need runways, so why get in the way.

[TheGorrilla]

Raining meatballs. Yup! How many heli pilots look up before starting engines/engaging rotors or hover taxiing? or indeed park their vehicle in the middle of a busy runway or noise sensitive area. Come on chaps, dispense with the ego and think. Before any considerate, professionally minded heli pilots have a go at me. I would agree that sadly a few numb nutss' let you down. Fixed wing guys are not exempt from being numb nuts either. All I can say is, do the best you can to be aware (spacially) of what is going on around you. If you try your best to "build up the big picture" and "notice understand and think about potential rolling goat shags" then you'll earn respect!! :cool:

From me too!! :\ :uhoh:

[Whirlybird]

Alright, it's gripe time!!!!! The gloves are off, are they? Right then.....

As a helicopter pilot, I've been thoroughly pissed off for ages about the fact that fixed-wing pilots almost NEVER see my helicopter in the air!!!!! Why should we always have to be the ones to take avoiding action? I know you guys sit there with the aircraft trimmed out, looking at the GPS most of the time (or going to sleep), but don't you have eyes at all? I know that helicopters, especially small ones, are difficult to see, but if I'd filed an airprox for every near miss caused by the fact that plank pilots just don't see me, the airprox guy's computer would have crashed long ago! Forget rules of the air and who's supposed to take avoiding action - if I see a f/w aircraft, I KNOW it won't see me, and I keep out of the way. It's called self-preservation.

And while I'm about it, will some of you A/G controllers please learn what helicopters can do! We DON'T need to fly circuits, and it's not a great idea, since we slow down before landing. And the f/w pilot behind us, who of course won't see us (probably still looking at his GPS....) will just carry on....well, you get the point. OTOH, please don't ask us to come down vertically from 200ft, or fly low level across a whole line of aircraft to reach the fuel pumps; the other aircraft don't like it, and blame us.

And if occasionally - very occasionally, mind you - we're not perfect, bear in mind that we may still be recovering from being scared out of our wits by some of you flying a couple of feet away from us and then blaming our rotor downwash, or just given a hard time because you expected us to stop dead in mid-air and land on a sixpence between tall trees in a howling gale.

Phew, I feel much better now. :) ;) :ok:

[Needlesplit]

:D :D :D :D :D Go on whirls you tell 'em gurl!:}

PS While I'm on...why do we have to do great big plank circuits and holds, hover taxi along the taxiways and transit on the B:mad: y runway at LPL???:ugh:

Whinge - OFF
Thread drift - OFF

back to why Heli pilots are crap....

N/S:ok:

[Whirlybird]

It's not just LPL - it's everywhere! Hover-taxi along that yellow line, don't cut across the grass, and definitely don't just take off into wind and get out of everyone's way...I mean, it may be common sense, but....well, it's not done is it? It's not British! You'll never develop a stiff upper lip if you don't learn to follow yellow lines. Besides, the plank pilots might get jealous.

But I forgot. No, it's not everywhere. There are the airfields that have Special Helicopter Procedures. Descend to 700 ft at the farmhouse that looks just like all the others, follow a curving path over lots of VRPs that even the locals can't find, stop dead and hover over X-Ray...oh, that's the point hidden in the long grass between the two runways that we just forbade you to cross, sorry if we forgot to paint it in this year; we expect helicopter pilots to be psychic. And after we've left you hovering for ages while we make the tea, cross the runway immediately, and expedite!!! And then do the mother of all quickstops, and park on that H between the trees with the low branches and the badly parked microlight...what do you mean, you might blow him over; that's your problem, not ours.

Oh, and then drop into the tower please; we've had a complaint from a plank pilot about....your very existence.

[Chukkablade]

Whirly, that last post, brilliant, just brilliant:D :D :D I thought it was just me who encountered all of the above:ok:

[BackPacker]

Okay helo drivers, keep on ranting. I'm learning something useful here.

Reminds me of the day that I was cleared to "line up and wait", which I did, and then nothing happened for a minute or so. Just in case the tower guys had gone to lunch or so, I reminded them "ready for departure". "Yeah, we know, but the helicopter is first". Apparently the police helicopter had a scramble, didn't talk to the tower but only to ground (and I was on the tower frequency - never heard them) and took off directly from its parking position.

So I, for one, think it's fascinating to hear what helicopters can, can't, will and won't do. Helo performance and flight operations are not in the PPL(A) syllabus, but we do mingle with them in the same airspace. Might as well learn about them.

And this might sound stupid, but I've always understood that helicopters are inherently unstable. So you've got your right hand on the cyclic (if that's what its called), left on the collective, feet on the pedals at all times. I've seen (in an R22) that your radio/instrument stack is severely limited as compared to even a basic VFR aircraft, but still? How do you set radio frequencies, squawks, QNH and so forth? Do they require you to grow an additional limb (and if so, where is it attached :-) ) or are helicopters not *that* unstable?

[Whirlygig]

So you've got your right hand on the cyclic (if that's what its called), left on the collective, feet on the pedals at all times.

Yup!

Radio frequencies, QNH and transponder are all set on the ground before lift. Once flying straight and level at a couple of thousand feet, changing these is not too much of a problem; put the friction on the collective and quickly twiddle the knobs!! It's easier flying from RHS but I used to fly a helicopter from the left hand seat in which case I had a choice. I could try to hold the cyclic with my knees and twiddle the knobs or, put the friction on the collective, hold the cyclic in my left hand and twiddle the knobs. Neither of which resulted in elegant flying!

I don't tend to write down ATC clearances; I memorise them. Most controllers are aware of a helicopter's limitations in that respect and tend to give us information, one bit at a time.

Cheers

Whirls

[Dave Gittins]

I suppose this is as good a time as any to ask a question that has always puzzled me. Why do helicopters have to hover taxi down the taxiways and get in the vicinity of the runway before they are allowed more than 10 feet off the ground ??

When we were reconstructing Luton, many was the time the plodicopter whipped by the office in the summer blowing grass cuttings in through the bog window as it swept down from the cargo area to the runway. Now at Fairoaks I often see the Surrey Police taxi down to the runway before lifting.
Surely the whole idea of a helicopter is that it doesn't need a runway ... or is that the only part of the airfield licensed to launch aeronautical conveyances ??

Obviously nobody wants a helicopter to take off blasting other things about or flying low over aeroplanes or other sensitive stuff but safety and good manners aside why not use the machine to the best of it's abilities ?

:confused:

[Twiddle]

At fields that aren't used to helis they tend to make you use the runways (nah, we don't need to them and getting to them is usually an ache) and use the circuits.

Flying at fields where they are either used to helis or they know you they'll usually cut you some slack and let you go where you know you're safe to be, direct approaches to various points. But we whirly wings need to remember that the tower can usually see all the taxiways, but they might not be able to see us in dips on the grass hence sending you where they know and can see.

Whirls, I'll add another few to your list, we also like to land and take off into wind given a preference. And to expand on your vertical, I was asked as they were busy whether I could come in above their normal circuit height and descend to the pumps vertically...... Obviously been watching too much Budgie the Helicopter....


On the flip side, most places charge us more to land a heli - that doesn't touch the runway - than a SEP. The only way we can get good value is to scrape a good sparky fulldown every now and then!

Bottom line is I think there's no more and no less bad airmanship from rotary pilots than from fixed wing (I fly both), and hopefully the average rotary pilot has a good understanding of what can tick people off as so many people tend to dislike rotary traffic - for instance I try never to shoot autos into the same place twice, I figure that seeing and hearing a helicopter on a Sunday morning can be interesting the first time, but by the tenth the level of excitement has waned somewhat...

[k12479]

"please don't ask us to come down vertically from 200ft"

why not? is this something to do with ground effect?

[Whirlygig]

Vertically i.e. perpendicular to the ground is not clever due to no forward speed and possibility of vortex ring state. Us helicopters don't like that. :ouch: We don't need as much horizontal distance but we do need some!

Cheers

Whirls

[Twiddle]

Or, as Whirls knows but is probably too busy sucking on a glass or two of vino to type, we can come down vertically but we have to keep our vsi low, which would then leave us in the avoid area of the h/v diagram (below the dead mans curve) for too long.much more importantly, if we did it and it all went pear-shaped then we'd be asked embarrassing questions and have to fill out paperwork, and I hate paperwork...high speed vertical descents are best left for high performance helicopters such as airwolf, budgie and harold...