Blackpool - the beginning of the end for GA?

[baldwinm]

Blackpool have announced that as from the 1st of April discounted landing cards will not be available for based aircraft. Landing fees are to be set at £7.60 per half tonne plus VAT - that's £26.79 for a Cessna 172 - approximately double what we were paying last year . Visiting aircraft pay for parking after the first two hours as well.
Due to the protests received the matter will apparently be raised at a board meeting tomorrow.
If you use/have used/might have used Blackpool and wish to add your voice to the protests of private owners/based operators please send your comments to [email protected] FAO The Finance Manager, Glynn Wright ASAP
Many Thanks
Malcolm Baldwin

[Bandit650]

Has a reason been indicated? Or do we assume the obvious?

[IO540]

What services does Blackpool give you for that £26?

For example, do you get a separate GA entry/exit route so you avoid the holiday passengers?

[baldwinm]

Bandit650:
The only reason they have given is that they want to encourage GA (honestly). The rate per tonne is actually slightly less than last year. No based aircraft paid that as they bought landings in bulk (although no refunds if you didn't use them)
IO540
We have a seperate entrance to airside through our hangar (for which we pay, a lot ). Visitors, and I presume anyone without arrangements through a FBO or Flying school will have to go through normal security (in fact I believe visitors now have to do this to pay their landing fee in the terminal, even if just refueling)

[dublinpilot]

The only reason they have given is that they want to encourage GA (honestly). The rate per tonne is actually slightly less than last year. No based aircraft paid that as they bought landings in bulk (although no refunds if you didn't use them)


Baldwinm,

Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that landing fees for visitors are actually being reduced?

dp

[baldwinm]

Dp,
on the face of it landing fees are reduced by about 10% for visitors, offset slightly by increased parking charges. It's private based aircraft and the flying schools that are getting hammered.
Perhaps when they mean they want to encourage GA - they mean everywhere except at Blackpool?
baldwinm

[FlyingForFun]

It's been a few months since I left Blackpool, so I may be way out of date.

When I left last summer, there were lots of rumours about the terminal building being extended to the east. This would involve displacing some, if not all, of the flying schools, whose hangars are to the east of the terminal building.

Relationships between the airport and the flying schools had been less-than-perfect for quite a while. Turning the flying schools' car-parks into public long-term parking went down particularly badly. My school was forced to pay a large sum for staff passes to enable all its staff to use the car park free of charge. The airport wanted to charge all our members a similar fee. We queried this, and also queried whether our trial lessons would have to pay for parking (the airport was genuinely shocked to hear that we had over 1000 trial lessons a year), and the airport eventually decided to allow us to stamp our customers' parking passes to enable them to use the car park free of charge. Nevertheless, there was a marked decrease in walk-in enquiries about trial lessons after the car park changes were made, with potential customers driving up to the parking barrier then turning away, not realising that we'd be able to stamp their ticket if they made a genuine enquiry.

Then there was the ongoing issue over the hangar doors - the doors at the rear of the hangar which open onto the apron. For many many months, we complained that the doors were difficult to open and close. The airport (who own the hangar, and are responsible for the doors) refused to spend any money fixing them. We always believed that this was because the airport were planning on knocking down our hangar one day. Eventually, the school decided to ban staff from attempting to move the doors by hand, because of health+safety fears over damaged backs. We started to use the hydraulic aircraft tug to move the doors, but stopped when we realised this was damaging the lifting gear of the tug, and might result in puncturing a tyre of an aircraft. So the only option was to leave the hangar doors permanently open. We called airport security each night to inform them that the doors had been left open - and it was only a few months after we started doing this that the airport finally relented and fixed the doors.


So - I wonder if this latest news is just another way of putting pressure on the schools to vacate and make room for a future terminal expansion? It doesn't sound like they're trying to kick out all GA if they have lowered landing fees, it would only be based aircraft that are affected. And why would they do that, except to claim the ground used by the hangars for their own use?

Perhaps someone who is still based there can shed some light on my theory, and whether my facts are out of date, as I left Blackpool last summer.....

FFF
-------------

[False Capture]

When you're flying a GA aeroplane your're best off avoiding any airport which describes itself as an 'International Airport'. However, it's always a shame when an airfield goes down this road.

[stuartforrest]

You don't have much choice when you leave and base your plane in north Lancashire as there are no other airfields round here.

If there was a choice there would be competition but there isn't.

[w827sm3]

As FlyingForFun (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=35502) of Bournemouth has said (Hi Dean), the hangars at Blackpool are a disgrace. Being made mostly of asbestos, there were numerous panels blown out and left smashed on the apron during the January storms. Nobody from the airport seemed bothered! There are a number of panels missing in the roof with many owners pride & joy (including a very nice KingAir C90) getting covered in rain and asbestos debris - these are owners that have paid to have their planes hangared so they are under cover and away from the elements. Now there are buckets all over the hangar floor collecting rain water.

[nowacessnapilot]

Malcolm,
I have just spoken to the Finance Manager, who advises me that there is no Finance Director at Blackpool Airport. However, he would be very happy to receive all correspondence on the matter; his name is Glyn Wright. :eek:
Don't try phoning the Airport - You will take 4 minutes getting to:
"Dial - 9 for an operator." :{ :ugh:

[rufus.t.firefly]

Interesting to note that on another thread Barton is to be renamed
Manchester City Airport , hope they dont go the same way as Blackpool.

The problem with Blackpool is that they can't actually afford to lose all the GA traffic , as it is part of the old bread and butter income. They can't screw the LOCO's for more revenue in case they pull out. I doubt they actually make much money from the LOCO's , its the damn car park that makes the money.

The whole airport building infrastructure is old and in need of renovation. Any tenants like to comment if their respective rents on the hangars have changed to date ??

Have the operating hours changed at all to accomodate the scheduled Boeings or do they all get in out after 0700 and in before 21.00 ...... would they charge a based tenant an out of hours fee even if a 737 was due in after 21.00 , can anybody elaborate if they would or would not ?

It's all good PR !!! := :=

[baldwinm]

nowacessnapilot said :
Malcolm,
I have just spoken to the Finance Manager, who advises me that there is no Finance Director at Blackpool Airport. However, he would be very happy to receive all correspondence on the matter; his name is Glyn Wright.

Thanks I've amended the original post. His direct e-mail is his [email protected]

[False Capture]

The whole airport building infrastructure is old and in need of renovation.I may be able to help.

If we arrived at the Blackpool International Airport in a B777 then we'd trash the runway (due to low load-bearing strength) and then we could blow the old buildings and hangars away with whilst taxying around.:ok:

[rufus.t.firefly]

False Capture ......yes your nice 777 could certainly do that , mind you We supposedly have 737's here sinking in tarmac ( tarmac now replaced !), and almost blowing Terminal windows in before the £££££ push backs started ...........thats what a local source told me last year !

If you can just make a low pass to blow the old hangars down that might start some upgrading !!!!



:ooh:

[Red Devil 666]

I thought based operators had been offered a 50% reduction on their landind fees ?

[baldwinm]

Red Devil 666 said

I thought based operators had been offered a 50% reduction on their landind fees ?

FBOs have i.e. Flying Schools and other commercial operators, not individual or group owners

[go around!]

According to the "Fees & Charges" Sheet from 1 April 2007:
Rebates are available for:
Crew Training & test Flights Pre-Booked with ATC only, of 50%
Diverted Scheduled Services of 50%
and For Additional Approaches of 50%

No mention of "Home Based Operators" though, so they would have to pay full whack. That can't be right, Can it??????

[baldwinm]

This appears to be the same as the discounts offered last year except that discount pre-paid landing cards were then available.

A 50% discount has been offered to FBOs - the uncertainity is over whether this is available to all based aircraft and if not what discounts, if any, are available to others.

[Red Devil 666]

Anyone who has an aircraft based at the Airport will receive a 50% discount on their landing fees.

[soay]

Anyone who has an aircraft based at the Airport will receive a 50% discount on their landing fees.I've just had that confirmed as well, but it seems that you actually have to ask for the discount.

[d192049d]

Little fly out to Blackpool on Saturday last in my trusty PA28....good flight and 1st time up the MCT LLR [No probs there]. Landed Blackpool to be met by a marshaller which was a 1st for me As I was looking at him through a propeller disc I hoped the brakes still worked.

Anyway parked up outside Hangar three as directed shut down and then escorted into the office of Pool aviation at the back of the hangar. Very welcoming, very plush with "free" coffee and a pilots lounge....so whats the problem? Well the landing fee including VAT was £39!!! So much for the free coffee.:{

Be warned:ok:

[go around!]

£39.00!! Wow
Although I can't quite work out how the charges got to that amount.

The Landing Fee is £7.60 per 1/2 tonne plus VAT for a/c up to 3 tonnes which covers the PA28.
Parking is FREE for the first 2 hours and then £2.40 per 1/2 tonne up to 24 hrs.

It is worth noting that a call to ATC to pre book your arrival and tell them that it is a training flight (which it would be if you had never been to Blackpool before) would have got a 50% reduction to the Landing Fee.

That doesnt really help d192049d but may help future visitors.

I do wonder whether the charges may have been from Poole as a Handing agent rather than just the airport itself? and if so can this be avoided!

[A330 Dreamer]

I was planning on stopping off at blackpool as part of the CPL x-country flight coming in from Sherburn-in-Elmet before heading back north to Prestwick.

would you local guys advise to continue planning with blackpool in mind or go somewhere else?

[go around!]

I would go ahead with Blackpool!

A call to ATC will get you the 50% reduction on the Landing Fee, and coming in from Sherburn you could come stright down the ILS or even get a practice SRA. It is worth checking with ATC when you Pre-Book if there is any charge for an SRA followed by a normal landing. I don't think there would be, but you never know????

I would also call one of the clubs on the airfield and see if they can tell you about whether a handling agent is required. ANT flying Club would be my choice. 01253 345396. Speak with Russell. He was very helpful last time I was in there.

[Bob Stinger]

I think Pool charge £10 for handling, and with what they offer you that is a pretty damn good service, the rest is the airports fees.

[A and C]

I used Blackpool last year on the way to the IoM TT and the place was a haven for the jobsworths with a lot of "you cant do that" from half witts at security.
The other visit was in a B738, they kept us wainting on the taxiway for over an hour due to lack of stands at the terminal, the pushback crews nearly put two of the out going aircraft on the grass and clearly had not had any trainning worth talking about, eventualy when I felt I had to park the aircraft across two stands so that I can taxi out because I feel that I can't trust the pushback crews with a very new B738.
When I get parked I find that the reason for the ramp congestion is an A320 that was damaged in a ground inccident that was awaiting the engineers to fix it !
The whole input by the airport authority was "micky mouse" to say the least and from the two visits to Blackpool that I have made I dont think that the management are fit to run the donkey rides on the beach.
The only up side was ATC who are very much with the program ! I felt very sorry for the guy in the tower who was clearly very unhappy with the way that the ramp was being run and having to hold us on the taxiway for so long.
The conclusion that I have come to is that the airport management are out of there depth with this "international airport" thing and can't cope. Letts all hope that the airlines give the place a miss and GA returns dispite the managements "international airport" status.

[go around!]

The conclusion that I have come to is that the airport management are out of there depth with this "international airport" thing and can't cope. Letts all hope that the airlines give the place a miss and GA returns dispite the managements "international airport" status.


Wow A and C, remind me not to get in your bad books! I understand that Ryanair have just ditched the Stansted Flights!!!!!

[nano404]

:eek: £39:eek: where i'm at you probably pay £9-£10 for parking and overnight together for light a/c, but in USD though. Wonder what the 747s and777s pay there?

[Red Devil 666]

I would be very interested how that figure is made up - Did you get an invoice.

"Go Around" is quite right - Landing fees are £7.60 per half tonne and parking is £2.40.

I believe Hangar 3 is charging £10 handling fee but this is not mandatory as the Airport do not charge for handling under 6 tonnes.

[go around!]

Wonder what the 747s and777s pay there?


With the longest runway at Blackpool being 1860m, the fees for a 747 would be massive as they would be parking over the fence at Pontins!

[astronaut97]

I believe Hangar 3 is charging £10 handling fee but this is not mandatory as the Airport do not charge for handling under 6 tonnes.

When I went to Blackpool a couple of Saturdays ago with a friend, we were duly informed by Hangar 10 that handling will be mandatory for all aircraft and that you will require PPR aswell :eek:

The landing fee was £39 aswell, which included a £10 handling charge, even though we didn't ask for handling.

[False Capture]

With the longest runway at Blackpool being 1860m, the fees for a 747 would be massive as they would be parking over the fence at Pontins! A B777 at Max Landing Weight would use about 1350m with maximum auto-brake. However, at this weight of 208tons, the runway simply isn't strong enough due to its low load bearing capability.

go around! is correct. The fees for a B777 would be massive but probably because of the subsequent repairs to the runway.

Unfortunately, it would have to depart from Rwy10 due to the limited turning pad on Rwy28, as a result 187 000lbs of thrust would probably blow Pontins into the Irish Sea!

[nano404]

Quote:
Wonder what the 747s and777s pay there?
With the longest runway at Blackpool being 1860m, the fees for a 747 would be massive as they would be parking over the fence at Pontins!


Heh, not familiar with UK airports so I just assumed it was large.

Bet I can get the 777 to land safely on the 799m runway. Engines off, spoilers up, flaps down and square wheels should do the trick. Floating down with just enough momentum too keep from stalling, of course.:}:p:ok::E

[soay]

Unfortunately, it would have to depart from Rwy10 due to the limited turning pad on Rwy28, as a result 187 000lbs of thrust would probably blow Pontins into the Irish Sea!
Why would that be unfortunate?

[False Capture]

You wouldn't want to see Pontins being blown away would you?:E

[smith]

Please read carefully information on Blackpool on AIS. All aircraft should have insurance of at least £5million to land at Blackpool. I was about to take a flight to Blackpool when I noticed this, I checked the insurance document of the aircraft I was renting and the maximum insurance pay out was £3.3m. Had to cancel my trip.

Checked other airfields and none of them seem to have this stipulation, I think it maybe due to the high intensity helo traffic in the area.

I don't know if ATC wil actually check on this before you land, however be aware if you are planning a trip to Blackpool as your insurance policy will be null and void if you do have a prang and could turn out quite expensive for you.

CHECK YOUR AIRCRAFTS INSURANCE LIABILITY BEFORE FLYING TO BLACKPOOL

[ShyTorque]

I was quite horrified at the bill for over well over £400 for one day's landing fees charged when I took our helicopter there for maintenance a while back and had to carry out some test flights (definitely no handling offered or received, not even a marshaller, as we went nowhere near the terminal).

My company accountant was "more than a little surprised" at the bill, which I was required to explain.... I have since told the maintenance company that although we were perfectly happy with their service, unfortunately for them, these ridiculous airfield costs mean we will not go there again if we can use an alternative contractor elsewhere. At the alternative airfield, for the same service, we get one landing fee charged for the day, at about one eighth of the Blackpool costs.

[NorthSouth]

smith:I think it maybe due to the high intensity helo traffic in the areaThat surely can't be right? I wouldn't have thought that an aircraft's insurance policy, however huge the sum insured, would cover for accidents happening off the aerodrome/outside the ATZ, and inside the ATZ everyone's under full ATC control so how could lots of heli ops (actually there aren't that many) affect the level of risk?

I haven't looked, but I'm prepared to bet Aberdeen, Scatsta, Humberside and Norwich don't have massive insurance requirements and they have more or as many heli movements as Blackpool.
NS

[smith]

You are probably right, I don't know the reason but the AIS and Jepp both stipulate £5m liability before you can land, as I said I checked the aircraft I was going to hire and it was insured against £3.3m so I cancelled my trip.

A friend of mine said it was due to the number of heli's going to the Morecombe bay gas fields.

Do ATC or other authorities check the insurance you have on the aircraft before or after you land? I'm not going to risk it as a small dunk could prove costly.

Is it another way to squeeze out GA?

Have any other pilot's noticed this and checked the liability on their aircraft.

[NorthSouth]

smith:A friend of mine said it was due to the number of heli's going to the Morecombe bay gas fieldsIf Blackpool have used that as an excuse it has no basis. Blackpool had about 5000 commercial heli movements last year. Humberside and Norwich both about 7000, Scatsta 8000 and Aberdeen 37000. There's only two based commercial helis at Blackpool and anyway, why would they alter the risk level to fixed wing GA aircraft? They're always flown by two commercial pilots and operated under full JAR-OPS standards.
NS

[smith]

I totally accept what you are saying, all facts and figures and everything. My main point is that Blackpool have a specified insurance cover required for GA, whereas most airfields don't have anything specifeid or printed in airfield information guides.

I'm not bothered that the heli's have two crew, are under radar coverage etc etc, I am just warning other GA pilots to check their insurance liability if flying to Blackpool as it may not provide the coverage required.

My friend had actually said his club aircraft weren't allowed to fly to Blackpool because of the heli's and upon noticing the specific insurance requirments, maybe I tied the two together. If Scatsca, Aberdeen etc have more movements good for them. Final time I say it and irrespective of the heli's:- make sure your insurance liability will cove you when flying into Blackpool!!!

[NorthSouth]

Sorry, not trying to argue with you, just challenging what the airport may have given as the reason. If anyone gets told by Blackpool that they can't fly in because of commercial heli movements then it's clearly rubbish. But then most of the reasons given by big-headed airports for banning light aircraft are bull****. In this case it's presumably that they decided to buy a cheap insurance policy which transfers all the risk to aircraft operators.

Only other UK airports I know with a stipulated minimum insurance are MoD airfields.

NS

[Wide-Body]

Just to balance things. I had to fuel stop in Blackpool twice a couple of weeks ago (note to self buy Bigger fuel tanks for the YAK).

Landing fee £ 22 which is a lot better than Cranfield. ATC were accommodating to tight circuits. And also no messing around on the departure. On the ground 20 mins once and 30 mins the second time because the guys had to refuel an airliner. For three aircraft that is not bad going. So for what we wanted Blackpool had no faults.

We got stuck there last year and I have to say Pool aviation (or Hanger 3 as they are now) were superb at looking after a couple of stray pilots. Although security in the terminal were impolite, but there all the same these days.
So thanks Blackpool (Esp ATC and refuelers) for us you got it right, same again next year please.

All the best

Wide

[rufus.t.firefly]

quote :- "A friend of mine said it was due to the number of heli's going to the Morecombe bay gas fields " :* :*
The heli's do not effect the GA operation at Blackpool at all , your informant has simply made an error .

All I can think is that their is a protected zone around the Offshore Oil and Gas Fields and thats it , and GA traffic calls up regularly on their company frequency for crossing clearance , and 99.9% of the time GA gets cleared through. :ok:

The offshore helicopter operation has no impact on GA at Blackpool as it is a self contained operating unit:ok: :ok:

[smith]

If anyone gets told by Blackpool that they can't fly in because of commercial heli movements then it's clearly rubbish.

It has never came directly from Blackpool airport, it was all hearsay from a friend. If you read my posts I have never quoted that Blackpool are giving this information. I have said I have heard and that a friend told me.

Just wanting to know why GA aircraft have to have £5m liability, I put two and two together and got five.

Anyone know why Blackpool stipulate minimum £5m liability? Is it incase you fly into the tower?:}

[soay]

Anyone know why Blackpool stipulate minimum £5m liability? Is it in case you fly into the tower?
A quick scan of my Pooleys showed the next highest insurance requirement is £3m, with nothing specified for the major international airports. The £2m extra should cover the cost of the skips to dispose of Pontins, in the case of EFATO at 200ft. :E

[Red Devil 666]

The £5million liability IS NOT a requirement in order to land at Blackpool.
It is simply a guidline set down by the insurance company.
The onus for the limit of cover is completely on the operator.

The liabilty you face would be the same at any Airport which would be for the worse case scenario i.e. you fly into the passenger Terminal.

Blackpool is merely being prudent in advising this as a guidline but they obviously won't ask to see your insurance documents or indeed stop you landing if you haven't got £5m cover.

So Smith don't be put off and enjoy Blackpool !

[soay]

The £5million liability IS NOT a requirement in order to land at Blackpool.
It is simply a guidline set down by the insurance company.
So what's this (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aerodromes/302NH01.PDF) entry in the AIP all about?
Airport Regulations:
b) Aircraft using Blackpool Airport are to carry third party insurance cover of not less than £5,000,000.

[niknak]

For the reasons previously given, most airports require a minimum insurance cover of around £2.5M.
Having sniffed around at our place, it may come as no suprise to you that, when the airport authority wanted know how much liability insurance an individual aircraft operater should have, no one could tell them - in the end it was the Insurance Industry who came up with the figures.