No Equity Aircraft Groups

[Expat Flyer]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the No Equity Aircraft Groups scheme based in the north of the UK. It seems really good and a very economical way to fly new, well equipped aircraft.

http://www.aircraftgrouping.com/no_equity_index.htm

I have seen a few posts from EGCC4284 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=24628) about these groups but nothing from members of the groups.

Is anyone a current member? Any experiences with this scheme as a PPL student?

Thanks,

EF.

[MichaelJP59]

I looked at the website and the DA42 looked interesting, but nowhere on the page did it say where the aircraft would be based! Isn't this one of the most important bits of info for a potential user?

[Lucy Lastic]

A friend was once in a no equity group.

It was a great idea and started well, but went horribly wrong, due to autocratic management and lack of aircraft availability. Getting money out was also a problem.

I note they are still in business and trying to attract new members.

I strongly recommend trying to get an idea of the group from other members and/or people on the same airfield.

[EK4457]

I am a member of the said group and I must say that if you are going to fly more that 2 hours per month then do it. If you are hour building then it's a no brainer!

I finished my PPL in Sep last year and the first thing I did was join the PA28 Archer III group in order to do my hour building.

The way it works is very simple. You choose what group you want to join (2 seaters, 4 seaters or twins). Pay a deposit (returnable) equal to 6 monthly installments, and book a check ride on the aircraft. The instructor for the check ride is free and then, assuming you are safe, book to your hearts content with the online booking system.

The instructors are available for night ratings / IMC and a whole load of other ratings which are much cheaper than any other FTO. There are even some people doing PPLs.

To summarise:

Good points:

You will not fly better A/C for the money you pay. Guaranteed.
It's very relaxed and the group has a good atmosphere.
I worked it out as being cheaper than hour building in the US (taking into account flights / accom etc).

Bad points:

Based at Barton. In the winter, hour building goes out the window! Staying current is the challenge!

Weekends can be a bit sticky for availability. But this applies to ANY other group / FTO.

Oh, The DA42 isn't on line yet but it will be based in Blackpool. Will be far and away the cheapest MEP and rating in the UK.

Call the number on the site and ask ask ask!

EK

[englishal]

No equity groups can prove useful.....I was in one once for a few years (not the one mentioned I must say).

You do get to fly better kit for about the same money as a club Warrior (not much cheaper in my view). I could fly an IFR equipped Dakota (not DC3 ;) ), TB10 or Archer, in good nick with GPS for the same price as a knackered club warrior 140. You also can get to take them away for extended periods with no minimum hours to fly.

But there can be problems.

1) I've been waiting at the airfield and the plane hasn't been there, despite having online booking systems.....
2) Aeroplanes have been sold and replaced by (not as good) alternatives at short notice, plus in the interim there has been no availability
3) Aircraft which were based at one airfield have suddenly been moved to another 50 miles further away - permanently !
4) If you don't fly as much as you expect, you will loose your money!
5) Although you have no financial responsibility if the aircraft is U/S, you do really. If it is out of action for weeks or months, then you can't fly, but are still paying your subs.

Having said that, I'd be interested in a Twin Star at £100 per hour anyday! Base it in the South and I would consider something like that. I would ideally prefer an N registered one though.......

[IO540]

6) The head of the group, assuming he is a pilot and flies the plane too, is vulnerable to a hit from the Revenue for Benefit in Kind, because HMRC like to wash their hands of their well known guidance (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/senew/SE21004.htm)unless

(a) all pilots are owners of the asset, or

(b) the business is generating profits which result in nice corporation tax payments ;)

and (b) is not very likely since the capital allowances on any half decent new-ish machine will soak up any taxable profits for many years...

[Lucy Lastic]

"...6) The head of the group, assuming he is a pilot and flies the plane too, is vulnerable to a hit from the Revenue for Benefit in Kind, because HMRC like to wash their hands of their well known guidance (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/senew/SE21004.htm)unless

(a) all pilots are owners of the asset, or

(b) the business is generating profits which result in nice corporation tax payments ;)

and (b) is not very likely since the capital allowances on any half decent new-ish machine will soak up any taxable profits for many years..."


Interesting. The group my partner was involved in was operated as a company, so the pilots bought a share in the company, so I suppose, theoretically they 'owned' the aircraft.

However, there was no way that they could stop the Directors from changing the fleet at short notice, to ensure that the aircraft available or to choose the airfield at which it was based. It's not as if there was any meeting were the group could vote on decisions.

He did tell me that the 'profits' made seemed to disappear in Directors fees, and that levies were a feature of the group whenever an expensive repair was needed and that he never saw any accounts.

As I say, the idea of non-equity is great, and by all accounts, this group looks OK. Just be warned that there are some groups about that are less scrupulous.

[Pilotdom]

The owner or director of said group is actualy a Captain for DHL i believe. The group has a good website and a forum which I have read that all shows people are quite happy with the set-up. I believe but cant be sure that the number of people per aircraft is capped at 25?

They also have a G1000 182T on the way aswell as the twinstar.

[Daysleeper]

Having said that, I'd be interested in a Twin Star at £100 per hour anyday! Base it in the South and I would consider something like that.
Can someone in that group set up a Pitts in the south for the same amount?

Give them a call.

If you went and said I have 15 names here of people prepared to sign up for a DA42 at XXXX then I bet they will help you do it or base an aircraft there and give you a handsome commission. Depending on the type between 15 and 20 people seem to be about what is needed as a minimum.
I had a look through the figures one night and it all makes sense (though I still think the caravan plan is bonkers, cool but bonkers :} )

[18greens]

Daysleeper, thats a jolly sensible idea. I will phone them up.

[robin]

"I believe but cant be sure that the number of people per aircraft is capped at 25?"

I was under the impression that the limit would be 20, including Directors of the company

[maxdrypower]

I am also a member of the said group and can reccomend it to anyone . Ive been a member since the start . I have done over twenty five hours in abrand new c172 garmin 1000 equipped aircraft that has cost me 65 an hour , as opposed to the 110 epr hour for a 5000 year old fossilised tomahawk at my previous place. Even if the group went tits up tmrw I have more than saved money. I have access to three spotless aircraft and the most expensive is 65 per hour wet beat that without paying 5000 for a share . The main man is a dhl captain as well as a bloody nice guy his instructors are also airline types in the main and instruction is available also but the instructor fee goes on top of the 65 quid, any doubting thomases please give him a ring the number is on the site and if you view the forum there are many many happy pilots . I believe the amount of pilots is capped at twenty but thatis per aircraft , so there are three aircraft 2 x 172 and the archer but everyone has access to them so in essence 60 people can use the three , we did have some teething troubles initially but now its balancing out nicely and availability isnt that much of a problem , you can pose any questions to memebers on the site in the visitors forum , its not a con and it works well

[Madrigal]

Does anyone have any recommendations for no equity groups in the EGHH EGHI area? Has anybody got any experience of Cumulus rentals?

[tiggermoth]

[quote=robin]I was under the impression that the limit would be 20, including Directors of the company[/robin]

There does not necessarily need to be any limit of people in a no equity "group", (unlike a 'real' group) as the people do not have a share in the aeroplane. The no equity group is in effect hiring out the craft to a number of people (in the similar way as a club does).

As maxdrypower said though they are run as 'groups' with a nominal self-imposed limit of twenty.

T.

[IO540]

A no-equity group around a G-reg involves renting out the plane, so it has to be maintained to the Transport CofA regime. Then, no legal limit on the # of renters.

If everybody owns a share, min 5%, i.e. max 20 shareholders, then the plane can be maintained on the Private CofA regime.

If you want more than 20 owners, or if any one of them owns less than 5%, then you are back to the 1st para above.

With an N-reg it's different; the act of "renting" alone still falls under FAR Part 91 doesn't require a different maintenance regime. Only paying-passenger carriage, instructing people in your own plane, etc, does that. But groups (equity based or not) around these in the UK have issues they have to handle; it's really for experienced and already-qualified pilots only.

[maxdrypower]

Buy guys as I stated above this group is being run very profesionally . all these facts have been considered and dealt with . the aircraft have been serviced on a number of occasions now both at oxford and barton .The group has been runing for over 6 months with very few problems . I initially treated this idea witha bit of suspicion but took the plunge and am loving it . Im flying two hours tmrw in a gramin 1000 cessna 172 and it will cost me 110 quid , have a look at how much a pa38 at your local flying club will cost you for one hour.

[JTobias]

Chaps

I have recently joined the Barton No-Equity group. I also own a 1/5th share in an Enstrom 480 heli based at Barton and I am very particular about what I fly. I joined the group after sitting in one of the aircraft for less than 5 minutes. The group is very well run and the aircraft are immaculate at worst!!!

[Cumulogranite]

This sounds like a very good idea, but as with all things that sound "too good to be true" there must be a glitch somewhere. So those of you that belong already, yes on paper the idea sounds wonderful and would be of great interest to me post ppl skills test (whenever that might be!) but what is the downside? There must be one surely!

As a starter for 10, what is availablility like? I imagine that with 20 in a group there will be those that are more active than others, but what are the chances of making a booking for an aircraft on Friday afternoon for a Sunday afternoon trip to wherever? You all know the deal, see the long range weather forecast on tele and think "if that is as advertised I might risk a trip to Wales on Sunday" sort of thing. Can you book the plane at the drop of a hat or not?

[maxdrypower]

Exactly the same attitude as me , Imlooked into it and joined on the basis that if I lost out the most it would be ould be 660 quid for the deposit and i though it worth the risk. The risk paid off. The booking is done online through quite a good sytstem , you log on and have a look if the ac is avail you book it if it isnt you dont , remmeber that you have access to three seperate ac in the 172 group , At them moment the first choice ac is EA which is the garmin cessna . Weekeds were intialy a problem with the same people booking all th eweekend slots . This has been resolved to a degree by several warnings from the main man . On the booking site you will be unlikely to get an ac for sunday on a friday but it does happen , we have email notification from every member should they cancel their slot and most will post it on memeber announcements .on our forum so that other members can use the ac . At the moment those people that can only use the aircraft mon-fri book the aircarft week by week but looking at it I would say that three weeks in advance you will easily get an airraft . There is also the cost share inplication. I know from experience if i say for example wish to fly to caernarfon I post if anyone wishes to come and someone always will , so the cost is halved immediately . I was dubious at first but I have a had great fun flying the three aircraft and long may it continue , it is a good group witha good forum and lots of piss taking give it a try , remember I am not an administrator or an owner just a happy memmer weho s saving a lot of money on flying. a;ologies for the bad speelling i type fats but am creap at it , feel free to pm me i will give you any info you need , or goto aircraftgrouping.com and goto the forum as a guest and put qustions to the whole group

[englishal]

Does anyone have any recommendations for no equity groups in the EGHH EGHI area? Has anybody got any experience of Cumulus rentals?
Their URL is the same URL as the outfit I used to be a member of....no idea if it the same company though.

The trouble with Bournemouth / Southampton is that the big killer is the landing fee. This essentially means that if you're going flying, you may as well make a day of it, rather than nip up for a quick hour here or there. If you just go up for an hour you essentially add £30 per hour (50% - the landing fee) to the cost of the flight. If they had a landing card on the aeroplane then it would be worth it.....It also takes much longer to get anything done there. For example, we used to have the rule that on return you got the aeroplane refueled. So by the time you have landed and parked up, called the refuling guy and waited for him to finish and get to you, an hour or more has passed. Then you have to drive around to the airport terminal and pay your landing fee.......Add another 30 minutes.

Where I am now, I can be out of the hangar and lined up for takeoff in 15 minutes, and landing I just taxy to the fuel pumps, refuel the plane and park it in the hangar again.....

[rjay259]

Would anyone know if there is a group around the Goodwood/Shoreham area,
will ask direct to them as well but also like to check out around here. If there isnt and there are a few people who would be interested.

Dont ask dont get so here i am asking.

259:cool:

[east_sider]

Interesting thread, I've been researching a few no equity groups, vs other options in the hope I get my license finished later this year. For a C152 and based on 25 hours per year some quick calculations came out at:

£101/hr club hire, ok aircraft at best and limited to multiples of 90 min slots.
£100/hr in a no-equity group - much nicer aircraft and long trips possible.
£65/hr in an equity group, fairly low cost share to buy, but with the possibility of unexpected charges and potentially difficult to sell.

For 50 hours per year this falls to:
£99/hr club hire (club membership fee spread over more hours, minimal difference.)
£82/hr in no equity group.
£52/hr in equity group.

If you think 25hrs are minimum to feel current and be up flying regularly enough then its a no brainer as far as I can tell. 50 hrs plus per year and I'd start thinking about an equity share.

I know there's a no-equity group up at Barton but there don't seem to be that many in the South East - any ideas?

cheers

[MrHorgy]

I'm also a member, I regularly fly the clockwork 172 based at Barton, as part of my hour building - I can't rate it highly enough.

The owner is currently modernising the booking system and invoicing system, but for £60 an hour and £110 a month you can't go wrong. I flew down to Reus early March and have done about 40 hours in the past 6 weeks. Cost me £2400 + landing fees. If i had done that at a school would have set me back £4880, plus landings. It's a no brainer for me.

Horgy