refusal to pay a £1,000 bill for flowers and tea at funeral

[Sentry Agitator]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=35V10JR2OTLY3QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/25/nraf25.xml

Yet another Sunday and yet another sad story in the papers.

I find myself deeply saddened that this could happen given that there was so much focus and 'can do' attitude to get aircraft generated and pax transported for the memorial service in Jan.

My heart goes out to all those not only dealing with their loss but now the heartless attitude of our so called caring? masters!

I only hope that firstly it isn't true and secondly and most importantly, if it is, then somebody somewhere will have a serious rethink!

SA....

[Mr C Hinecap]

All
This is an emotive story, but I think it is worthy of careful thought - as opposed to knee-jerk posting and ranting. I've para-phrased a line for the title rather than using the one below as I don't think it the most even-handed journalism from the Telegraph:
RAF sends airman's family £1,000 funeral bill
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=YVYPLVCJCFTMRQFIQMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/25/nraf25.xml
I personally have no problem whatsoever with this. I don't want flowers at my funeral and I think they are a personal thing. I am sure the rest of the funeral aspects were covered by MoD and I'd certainly not expect a wake to be covered for by anyone else other than what is left in my account - I know my friends would drink an awful lot.
I am sure the other families were all treated in exactly the same way. At £2 per head for tea and biscuits, the funeral director wants slapping.

Oh - and this bill was not sent by the RAF - it was sent by the funeral directors
*retreats to trench for incoming*

[nigegilb]

Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said: "When the Government has spent around £8 billion on the conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan and at a time when the armed forces are losing personnel because many of them feel undervalued, this will only -reinforce the sense that the men and women who make military operations possible are not at the top of the MoD agenda."

Liam Fox has made the relevant point here. Damage is already done by the article regardless of whether proper procedure was followed. MoD is led by compassionless politicians a view reinforced by the attitude of MoD spokespeople. No wonder people are leaving in their droves.

[uncle peter]

For completeness the reported story stated that the bill was indeed sent by the funeral director, after the RAF refused to pay.

It has to be acknowledged that the bill for the flowers and tea pales into insignificance alongside the damage of the negative publicity this has generated.

All expenses should have been covered by the RAF (MoD). Unfortunately the MoD is now in the hands of the bean counters with no real leadership. It explicitly highlights what a third world military we have become.

The undoubtedly expensive recruiting ads on TV may as well be pulled as anyone looking to join the RAF (military) will look at this situation and ask the question about being valued and whether ones family will be looked after if an ultimate sacrifice is made.

Why dont they pull the ads so that the funds can be made available to look after those already committed, rather than promising the undeliverable to those who are not.

[nigegilb]

"This is apparently normal practise, my son's funeral was £1,500. I had service sheets printed, which cost £150, I was surprsied some time later to receive the bill from the funeral directors asking for this extra amount. Anything other than the'standard funeral' is not paid for, that includes flowers,etc."....

..."Going off on a side issue, my son was still alive but listed as very seriously ill when the notifying officer was sent out to see me. at my house, he had been instructed for me to get my passport and get over there asap. my son died while this man was enroute, so when we finally got over there a few days later we had to pay £450.00 for the flights ourselves. I was so disgusted by this that I later complained, and it was eventually refunded by one of the army charities."

I'll take Richard Branson's form of leadership any time thanks.

[BobHead]

As an ex-submariner and reader of this Forum as family have served in the RAF I am surprised by the lack of outrage that the MOD (RAF) have not rapidly stepped forward and said "Its a break down in communications we will settle this bill". Do the RAF not have a PR Department who were almost certainly asked to comment before publication. Do they really believe any publicity is good publicity.
It is s disgrace that any and I repeat any Government Department could treat the family of a member of their staff who died in the line of action for that Government. For the RAF to act in such a manner is dishonorable at its very best.
Over on RR we feel differently
http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4545#74881
Bob Head

[AC Ovee]

Well, unfortunately, this is a Kinloss c**ck up, period. Despite what we might think is the right thing to do, it has always been MOD policy that catering at funerals, even full military ones, is not paid for out of public funds. It appears that this particular message was not made known to the funeral directors and Gary's family. To make matters worse, for the Kinloss administrators, this particular business was discussed and written about, at some length in the period leading up to the funerals. I'm dismayed that this has happened.

[jayteeto]

MOD/Kinloss/Whoever, these may be the rules, the rules are wrong. Shame on you :mad:

[airborne_artist]

It seems hard to imagine that a) no-one spotted this and b) no-one had the balls to do anything about it.

Wake up RAF, it's a real and different world out there.

[WorkingHard]

Without commenting on this particular issue, where would you draw the line on funeral costs? In what circumstances would you you decide if a funeral was to be at public or personal expense. Anyone very sadly killed on active service by opposition should indeed be granted a funeral at public expense but what if said person was killed in a road accident and nothing to do with enemy action? The lines get blurred sometimes and it is easy to be wise after the event. What if a champagne celebration had been arranged instead of tea and biscuits? Who pays? I am just pointing out that it is not easy to be "correct"

[nigegilb]

The funerals that took place after the Hercules tragedy were attended by hundreds of colleagues and family. I would have no problem whatsoever with using public funds to help out with the costs of such funerals. And no, nobody was drinking champagne.

[WorkingHard]

nigegilb -nor would I or most people have any problem with that but I was just making the point that it is not always so simple (BTW champange perhaps ought to be consumed sometimes to mark the extraordinary achievments). The rules are in place and even if we do not agree with them we have to work by them. It seems to me that in the instance cited above it was a bit of stupidity on someone's part that the rules were not fully and clearly explained BEFORE the arrangements were made. Perhaps the miscreant whose job it was to look after such matters should be made to pay but that does not happen in the real world of "public service" does it?

[nigegilb]

Fair enough. Sean Rayment wrote the article and it would have been standard practice to have contacted the MoD a couple of days ago to show them the story and offer the chance to comment. I am gobsmacked by the insensitivity on display by the MoD spokesmen once more. There are better more imaginative ways of dealing with these issues. I am so, so glad I left.

[Impiger]

There are 2 issues at play here. The first is what should reasonably be covered in terms of funeral expenses, and I'm sure the administration team and budget controllers will have ensured they are squeaky clean on 'process'. The other is that having made something of a cock-up how does the organisation un-cock it? In this respect I think it is quite clear that to meet Commander's Intent and preserve the reputation of the Service this bill should have been quietly and quickly settled.

An organisation isn't entirely judged by whether it makes mistakes or not - but on how it responds to those mistakes afterwards!

[sheds]

These things happen in life; we need to keep it in perspective out with the emotion if at all possible - Gary had this skill. I had hoped to attend his funeral; he added much colour to my life whilst on the Sqn - the 6 hrs incident, Cat renewals, Kef etc etc come immediately to mind!! The world is such a boring place without people like Gary. I did however make the Memorial - I thought it was outstanding and a fantastic effort from the team who made it all happen, DW and the rest whoever they were did a great job from my perspective. The day offered a real positive out of a clear tragedy.

Who do I send the cheque to? Life is too short to worry about such things, as we've just been reminded of once again with Pete Whitto. These are gods, beaurocrats aren't - life!

Thinking of Pete, hope to see you all at his Memorial again, in an effort to take the positive out of that day - another top chap who enriched my life!

[rudekid]

It seems to me that in the instance cited above it was a bit of stupidity on someone's part that the rules were not fully and clearly explained BEFORE the arrangements were made. Perhaps the miscreant whose job it was to look after such matters should be made to pay but that does not happen in the real world of "public service" does it?

Sadly, the massive responsibility for this sort of thing falls at the feet of the assisting Officer, who is untrained, probably a Sqn mate of the deceased plucked at random by the powers that be. It's very much in at the deep end- here's the JSP, now crack on! It's a big ask and I suspect that if he/she made a mistake at all, they will be feeling very bad at the moment. Blame shouldn't be attached to individuals in these circumstances. This is a systemic failure.

[Two's in]

Proof (as if any were needed) that the Service is indeed run by bean-counters, and as the rules do not permit use of Public Monies for this, they selected the "score major PR own goal for RAF" option.

Just curious, but isn't there some Unit or Mess Fund that could have covered this, until the knob responsible was made to pay before being shot at dawn?

[vecvechookattack]

You don't need proof that the AFs are run by bean counters. They always have been and they always will be and I for one are glad of that.

But I do think that the Government should pay for the funeral of servicemen. And whilst we are at it why won't they pay for the funeral of ex-servicemen. These men and women served for our county and surely deserve to have the government pay for their funerals. And whilst we are at it, what about service widows and widowers. Surely, the sacrifice that these people gave should qualify for funeral expenses. So, I say that the government should pay for the funerals of all servicemen , all ex servicemen, all servicemens widows, all ex servicemen's widows.... and whilst we are at it, what about the children of servicemen? surely the sacrifice that these children gave must qualify for a free funeral? So thats all servicemen, all ex- servicemen, all servicemens widows and widowers, all ex-servicemens widows and widowers, all servicemens children, all ex servicemens children....and whilst we are at it, what about the cousins, uncles and Aunts of servicemen...surely they deserve a free funeral more than anyone, especially given the sacrifice they have given...

[cooheed]

What a crass statement :(

[Strato Q]

Sadly the mistake falls with the Visiting Officer who is responsible for informing the NOK what is an admissible expense and not. Although I do not agree with the rule, JSP 751 clearly states what con not be claimed back under a privately arranged funeral.

[London Mil]

Those who have been involved in this sort of stuff know exactly what the Service (ie the public) pays for and what is not paid for. They will also know that organisations such as the Benevolent and Dependants' funds do some amazing things, very quickly. If we really want to talk about finances at such a sorry time, surely it is enough to say that next of kin shoud not be ending-up out of pocket.
I just find it so sad that the subject has even been raised.

[An Teallach]

That's fine then: It's all the VO's fault. We can all rest easy.

The JSP was written at a time when deaths on active service were few and it would probably not be justifiable for the public purse to pay for catering & flowers at the funeral of SAC Bloggs who happened to die in a car crash while stationed at RAF Little Snoring. This funeral (among a series of RAF funerals) was of a totally different order.

Actually, this and the RAF's generally poor record on PCM is the the fault of a generation of senior administrators who appear to worship JSPs as Holy Writ, fail to see the bigger picture by sticking doggedly to their own remit and who have forgotten that rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools. Important details therefore fall through the cracks.

There are often ways round these things. The problem could probably have been solved by simply phoning Messrs Rattray & Sons, agreeing to lose the original invoice and having them re-submit their bill in a slightly less itemised fashion.

[gravity victim]

As an occasional (and non-military) reader of both this forum and ARRSE I was moved by the very strong reaction to this story over there. They are talking about a whip-round to settle the bill. Good to see the great solidarity that lies beneath all the normal inter-service banter. All I can do is fire off a letter to my MP asking him to take up the cause of full payment of military funerals by HMG with Browne. :mad: If the sandwiches were mostly feeding Service personnel the MOD probably saved on a meal anyway...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Vec,

Have a word with yourself,

Back on topic,

Is it not possible to cover that kind of expense from a mess fund, or simply from the CO's fund or similar? Surely that's the point of contingency funds....

[Zhivago]

People can we really be arguing over such an emotive topic? These people died in the service of their country...on an operational sortie whether by accident or enemy action. I would expect that they and their families are treated in such a manner as to honour their sacrifice.
If the MOD prefer to look after the servicemen and women in their 'Care' by the articles of some JSP, or any other such document they quote so fondly, well shame on them.
In my humble opinion this should not have been an issue and as so rightly stated not have gone so far as the press actually reporting upon it.
However, back to the point of the article, no family should be or expected to be finacially disadvantaged by a death in such tragic circumstances.
Surely, Kinloss could help? Has KInloss been contacted?
If not some of the much vaunted welfare and care communities what about the Squadron and aircrew associates.
If memory serves, is there not a tradition that an airman (Officer or NCO) who dies on active duty has his mess bill 'Written Off'. That is, after all and sundry have toasted his departure on the said Mess Bill.
For the sake of £2 per head teas and biscuits, could those partaking in the traditional last drinks, not just reach into their pockets one last time?
Maybe I am too traditionalist in my opinion but I was always taught and over time have come to believe that we look after our own, irrespective of what an AP or JSP proclaims to be the minium effort required!
This is a situation that, should not have arisen, should and can be addressed.

[Mmmmnice]

Yet another RAF/MOD PR disaster - the point is not who failed to do what or what regs will/will not allow the the public purse to pay for etc etc. The real impact is what anyone thinking of joining will make of their future potential employer; and what effect it has on the thought process of anyone who is on the cusp of leaving and is still weighing up the pros and cons. Personally, I've jumped, but it almost feels like someone is pushing me just in case I try to grasp something as I go!

[Maple 01]

F*** it, the Arssers are right, where do I send my cheque? We all wear/wore Air Force Blue, it's a matter of honour, we're (the wider RAF community) bigger than the MoD and if all else fails should look after our own. Do right by the family then shame the rule-makers in the press

[Grimweasel]

Another thing to bear in mind is that the media will use ANY story concerning government departments as an excuse to bash / belittle the Blair cabinet.

Funny how they quoted Liam Fox but didn't ask the labour lot for their view. Good stories have no hope of making news while Blair and his mob are still in power. The media will continue to use the Forces as a good easy way of picking at this government. That's why, week after week, these PR disasters are hitting the news stands!

[nigegilb]

Grimweasel, the MoD were regularly asked to provide a politician, Ingram/Reid to answer the claims I was making about the Herc crash. They refused on every occasion. They bury their heads in the sand and hope the bad news will go away. The MoD has been given this article to comment on. Hence the quotes from the MoD spokesman. It used to be Wg Cdr Trevor Field, he has moved on. The post is currently gapped by a couple of Sqn Ldrs. Don't suppose they will be in post for too long after this. What is also sad is the fact that we all know that the RAF is not heartless. RAF Lyneham from the Stn Cdr down was fantastic in coping with the Herc crash. The idiots in the MoD have done an awful lot of damage over this. It is truly sickening.

[professor moriarty]

Glad I left and even more glad that I didn't go backwhen they were chasing me to join the reserves. Rules may be rules, but what arguement is that when someone has been lost in such circumstances? Those behind the decision should be ashamed.

[Topsy Turvey]

The Stn Cdr / OC Admin should call on Mr Andrews first thing this morning and personally apologise for this **** up.

Whatever the regulations do / do not allow, as this brave airman had a military funeral the RAF (Kinloss or PTC?) should pay the undertakers bill.

Once it became clear that not all the costs could be meet under the "regulations" some other way should & could have been found to pay the bill (Welfare mess funds etc) The undertaker should not have been instructed to approach the family.

[plans123]

After reading all the message boards tonight, both
Arrse (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=59338#1122220)
and
E-Goat (http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=4251)
are on the verge of organising whip rounds for this. As stated by others on here, this may well 'go away' on Monday morning, but the bad taste left in peoples mouths still remains.
Utterly appalled.

[Blacksheep]

...who died in the line of action for that Government.I don't know about the rest of you but I never served any Government.

I swore an oath of allegiance, true: but that was to HM The Queen and her heirs and successors. If I had been unfortunate enough to have been killed in action I would have died for my country.

For centuries the only thing any government has been prepared to give dead servicemen for free was a wooden box (or for matelots, a canvas sheet and a cannon ball) and six rounds of ammunition for the salute. Many didn't even get that. In the 21st century its time for a change.

[AC Ovee]

A whip round is not required. Mr Andrews has made it clear, in the newspaper article, that he's not bothered about the money. His point is that it is the RAF/MOD who ARE bothered about the money. He is absolutely correct about that. Every administrator in the higher echelons of the station knew that there would be hundreds of people at every one of those funerals and that the associated (expensive?) catering bills would not be funded publicly. If the MOD has a matter of some obvious sensitivity to convey to bereaved families, it is the responsibility of a well-briefed senior officer, in uniform, to speak in person to the next of kin. Someone has suggested that the Visiting Officer has failed to convey the policy. Well, that is entirely unfair. VOs, by the nature of their personal assignment, must not be expected to convey bad news and then answer the awkward questions that are sure to follow. We should have officers trained and briefed to do that.

[Strato Q]

VOs, by the nature of their personal assignment, must not be expected to convey bad news and then answer the awkward questions that are sure to follow. We should have officers trained and briefed to do that.
Disagree and agree. Having been a VO, your main purpose is to be the link between the family and the Service, and that includes passing on bad news and fielding their awkward questions. The VO ideally is someone who knows the deceased and NOK and therefore will by default not be trained for the task. I received a brief but it did not mean I could answer all the questions and had to refer back to those in the know. My point is this situation should have been avoided.

[Line35]

I have e-mailed OC 120 Sqn - CC the Stn Cdr - to ask if there is a means where donations (mine to start off with) could be made. I will post if I get a response.

Signed Appalled of High Wycombe

:(

[nigegilb]

Line 35 I would like to do the same would you post the relevant emails on the thread?

[South Bound]

Guys, don't get carried away with the terminology - the chap/chapess that provides the bad news is a Notifying Officer (this is a once only task and should be performed by the Stn Cdr if available), the one that then assists the family with all the arrangements etc is the visiting/assisting officer (ongoing task, can take many months to assist getting things in order).

There is training available for this and Units should have a fair number of people ready to go, although perhaps we should all make it our business to attend in case it becomes our sorry duty one day.

Bottom line is the Rule is a crap one (wherever any possible error/comms faff happened) and once again the RAF has scored a terrific own goal. Makes you feel proud to be a part of it...

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Yet another sad indictment of the RAF PR Dep's in ability to do its job properly and say hey its covered, we are sorry. After all there is still the underspends in strike and PTC, different budgets but we all know it disappears from one budget and magically reappears in others when the high and mighty want new toys!;)

Come on MOD show US that the sacrifices we make are valued by you.

[endplay]

Having officiated at the funeral of a colleague who died due to injuries received (although several years after the event) and had dealings with his widow I would say that the RAF was pretty bloody good at the whole thing. It was a full military funeral with everything arranged, in continuous consultation with the family who had approval of the entire process, at no cost. As some family members lived in the southern hemisphere my colleagues body was held over at the undertakers for an extra 3 days - again at no cost to the family.
The only cost was the reception and as this is a matter of personal choice it is appropriate, IMHO, that this falls to the family who can put on as big or as small a reception as they wish to honour their loved one.
The notifying officer was able to make all of this clear and was able to ensure, by discreet enquiry, that it wouldn't be a financial burden. The RAF BF has just increased its death grant from £6K+ to £10K to help with this and similar issues.
Once again this site has allowed itself to be whipped up by an agenda driven press who could have put an entirely different slant on this story had they chosen to do so

[Tappers Dad]

My son was killed in the Nimrod explosion and I have to say that our VO explained to us that the cost of the reception and flowers would have to be met by us. HOWEVER I agree that the costs should have been met by the RAF. As my wife and Tappers Mum quite righty says:"They killed him so they should pay ".:mad:

[wait 1]

There is training available for this and Units should have a fair number of people ready to go, although perhaps we should all make it our business to attend in case it becomes our sorry duty one day.




South Bound I know that the VOs received no formal training and did the job out of respect for their fallen comrades. I do not believe there has been any training for VOs on the station, no one expects to loose 14 guys in a single stroke. I also believe that the funeral directors should know the score and make out their bills accordingly, it is after all a bureaucracy game!

[An Teallach]

I think many of us would agree with you, Tapper's Dad and Mum.

However, given that the rules are the way they are, what is unforgivable here is that it appears that the undertaker's bill was just returned to the undertaker and he was left to approach the family 3 months after the funeral.

Did the OC Accts ask the VO if the family had been informed as to what was and wasn't covered? Was the VO even informed that there was an outstanding bill?

If the family were not aware of what wasn't covered by the Service before the event, then in no circumstances whatsoever should they be being approached out of the blue by the undertaker for payment.

A couple the decent OC Admin Wgs I worked for in the past would have told OC Accts to pay up in a deniable conversation then, if by a 1000 to one chance the error was spotted on audit, they would have told OC Accts what a very naughty boy he was prior to buying him a pint.

[GlosMikeP]

What surprises me most by this is that the thread made it past a couple of posts before the Squadron Fund, Station Commander's Fund and the old tradition of a wake on the deceased's bar bill - subsequently written off at the next mess meeting and shared amongst all mess members - took over the bills. Didn't happen.

How many times I saw this done at Lossiemouth for aircrew killed flying Jaguars, Hunters, Buccaneers and the Shackleton, I try not to remember.

Someone's a bit late stepping up to the plate at Kinloss, perhaps, but better they do it late than never.

[FJJP]

I remember an accident where we lost 4 guys. I was asked to be Effects Officer [or VO as I guess it's now called] for one of the families. At Stn Execs meeting the next day, all the Sqn cdrs and Stn cdr told the OC the Sqn concerned that he could get on with whatever he had to do and not to worry about the bills - all would be paid out of whatever funds could be tapped.

And that is precisely what happened. The wake was covered totally from various mess, Sqn and other funds; the families did not have to spend a single farthing throughout the period. That included MT to transport people around as and when required, the various after-funeral functions, flowers, wreaths, et al.

What happened in this case is nothing short of disgraceful and someone should be held to account...

[GlosMikeP]

Exactly as it should be, and as it was at Lossie in the 80s.

What happened to the 'band of brothers' principles in the intervening years?

[Faithless]

Yet again we are kicked in the balls by our goverment of today :confused: . I dont care if it is an Army,RAF or Navy aviator, we are all one and I would gladly put my hand in my pocket to donate.

It just shows that we service people give so so much in every sh1t hole of this planet and we are repaid in this way.......Im lost for words.....When will the goverment wake up and see what they are doing to the British Forces?

[An Teallach]

The official response:

Defence News Daily (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/DefenceNewsDaily.htm)

DEFENCE IN THE MEDIA

Funeral costs and the RAF

Various media report that the family of Flt Sgt Andrews, who was killed on operations in Afghanistan, have been billed for the cost of the flowers and refreshments at his wake. The funeral held for Flight Sergeant Gary Andrews was held at public expense, at a cost of £3,250. Although this did not include the cost of flowers and refreshments at the wake, which should have been explained by the visiting officer, in the light of the family’s distress the RAF will be in touch to establish whether or not there has been a misunderstanding and to see of what further help can be offered.

[mojocvh]

RAF will be in touch to establish whether or not there has been a misunderstanding and to see of what further help can be offered

Nice of the MOD manderins to pass the buck; they just do not understand.

[tucumseh]

Typical MoD. All they're saying is "Look how generous we are, we forked out £3K for a funeral, what more do you want us to do?" And then pointing the finger as some Sqn Ldr who, in his own way, was probably just as distraught at losing 14 comrades. It's bloody shameful. The only concession I'd make to the trash who wrote this would be offer him the choice of wall to be put up against.

I recall an RAF officers heart operation being paid for a few years ago out of mess funds (not Kinloss). If that is possible, then this should have been sorted "on the nod" on Day 1.

[GlosMikeP]

Well with a bit of luck, common sense will win the day and the MOD contact will come attached to a late but welcome contribution from the Station commander's fund and Squadron fund.

Perhaps there will also be retrospective contributions, if necessary, to the families of the other aircrew, and the no less deserving Royal Marine, too.

Shabby episode.

[NimAGE139]

Under valued, undermanned, under equiped and under a bunch of spineless penny-pinchers! What a state the military is in.

Anyone broached the life-insurance question when in a war-zone? There's another hot potato....

[Da4orce]

Under valued, undermanned, under equiped and under a bunch of spineless penny-pinchers! What a state the military is in.

HERE HERE :D

[toddbabe]

Would this sorry scenario have happened in the American Air Force or any other but ours!!!!!!!!! I dont think so!!!!!!!!!!:\

[GlosMikeP]

Anyone broached the life-insurance question when in a war-zone? There's another hot potato....

There is something afoot on the life assurance I believe, although I don't know what, who's doing it or when it is expected to happen.

[TheSmiter]

Incredulous we’re still having this discussion, this story should never have hit the media – think there’s another agenda at play here! In all circumstances involving death-in-service, common sense and discretion should be the main driver and I’m sure that was the case for the majority of the Nimrod funerals (please don’t go and prove me wrong!) End of story!

To those who believe that Kinloss didn’t know how to send off the boys in the greatest traditions of this service, think again. CXX Sqn Crew 3 , together with their comrades, Joe and Oliver, were honoured many times and all bills were settled without question, as is right and proper.

There has been much discussion about the role of Effects / Visiting Officers. Never forget this could happen to you, at any time. What would you do? All VO’s (most are JO's or SNCO's) in this case had their worlds’ turned upside down on the 2nd Sept as well – they had no training and had to learn very quickly in the midst of their own grief. I believe they have all done a difficult job well, with great care and sensitivity, and I hope that Tappers Dad, together with any other family members who read these threads, would agree.

[Line35]

Further to my previous posting ref trying to gain a contact to make a contribution towards the cost - I was officially talked at, at some length and left in no doubt as to the official stance. My point of view was not welcomed and earned me the disapproval of those on high.

As a serving member I can make no further input into this thread..... other than to say if anyone else has any better luck in finding out how Mrs Line 35 can make a donation let me know!

:ouch:

[An Teallach]

Oh well, L35 - good effort. Don't worry, taking their own exposed incompetence out on juniors is frequently the response of the bully. Hope to see you back under a new handle.

If they've resorted to bullying a junior who merely offered to donate to a whip-round, it would appear that Mr Peter Andrews has at least succeeded in rattling the JSP-worshipping bureaucrats.

[The Swinging Monkey]

What about a letter/petition to either the 'Staish, Mr Bliar or the Defence Secretary something like this:

Dear XXXXX

I wish to make a donation to the Royal Air Force and the family of Flight Seargent Gary Andrews in respect of the paltry sum of £1000 which the Royal Air Force now finds inteslf unable pay for the flowers, Tea and Biscuits at his recent funeral.

As a very good friend of Gary, I am thoroughy ashamed to have been a member of a British Armed Force that treats it's fallen comrades in such a disgraceful and deplorable manner, especially during wartime operations

It would be an honour for me and, no doubt, many others to offer a financial donation to offset these costs, which clearly should have been met by the RAF.

Please furnish me with the details of a bank account at Kinloss or elsewhere, where I may make my donation.

Yours Aye

TSM

Does anyone think it will work?
TSM

[An Teallach]

TSM

I suspect NONPAS would end up with a handsome profit. The fund may be better set up outside MOD auspices with clear agreement as to what is to be done with any surplus.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Yes, I know what you mean, but I was hoping to 'embarrass' the service or the MOD into setting up a fund to specifically pay for this kind of thing.
I have never heard of this kind or refusal happening before, although thats not to say it hasn't, and I'm sure Gary's folks aren't the first. I would like to try and prevent it from ever happening again, and if that means emarrassment for the MOD and RAF then so-be-it. I am beyond caring for them now, they disgust me and bring shame on this (once) great country.
You can see this sort of thing happening in the States can't you? yeh, right.
CAS, ACAS, AOC any of you high-ranking 'chaps' up at the top - I hope you are justly ashamed of yourselves. Whatever the 'rules' say, this should never have happened and you are a disgrace to the uniform you wear. Royal Air Force? Royal Air Farce more like.
Oh bugger, I need to have a lie down, this so much hacks me off.
TSM

[SaddamsLoveChild]

TSM - calm down chap. may i throw this in for consideration. Their airships are no more tossers than the rest of us and were probably not in the know regarding every piece of JSP/AP legislation and nor should they. The gripe should be with those who have answered the question so insensitively at MOD after seeking guidance and the lack of news on its resolution. That said I am sure something has and will be done about it. I to am ashamed of this stance and the fact that it has not been reported as fixed from someone at Kinloss or MOD. That is the shameful thing.

Calling their airships tossers will not do anyone any good and is wrong IMHO it will only serve the draconian measure of limiting access to Prune a la E bay. Mods can you have a look at this and advise please.:=

[Confucius]

limiting access to Prune a la E bay

Which would, mayhap, show them to be to$$ers.

[Tappers Dad]

Firstly to TheSmiter I do agree,we had two VOs and one was a good friend of my sons. I have seen them both in tears not only because of the horrific details thay were aware of but also because of the stress they were under. They were expected to continue to work when asked as well as cope with distraught relatives.
As for the Funeral expenses I have said what I think in an earlier posting.They killed them they should pay.
Did they give him a good send off,Yes they did, but They killed them they should pay.
Do the relatives care what happenning with the Nimrod fleet now ? I wish to god we didn't but we do care.
Did they Guys at Kinloss do everything they could ?Yes and more
Did we have to pay? Yes we did
We did it for my son Benjamin who we loved and will never stop loving . R.I.P

[The Swinging Monkey]

SLC,
Yes, sorry - did get a bit carried away there (medication wore off you see)
However, I don't believe that CAS, ACS, AOC did not read the Telegraph on sunday, or were at least given a 'heads up' about the article.

If they had just an ounce of decency and common sense, they could have had it all sorted by 8.30 am on Monday morn!!

TSM

[Cumbrian Fell]

There was funeral of a SNCO in a N Yorks station in 1992 where the (estranged) widow had independently organised limos, a horse-drawn hearse and a very lavish reception, largely, it seemed, to impress the neighbours. Imagine the look on the VO's face when he arrived in a company Montego at the Widow's terrace, to find the street blocked with OTT vehicles and horse-dung. Of course the bill was sent to the RAF where it was...settled. Interestingly, the SNCO died of a heart attack, on the way to see his solicitor about divorce proceedings and at the (second) wake in the WOs' & SNCOs' Mess, most of his colleagues were too livid to speak to her.

There are clear financial guidelines on what the RAF will and won't pay for, but in this recent case, a little sympathy should have been applied.

[SKYCOOK]

The family were probably correctly briefed but in a time of grief one does not always understand the significance of what is being said. The training for visiting officers and admin staff may need to be improved in this regard, so that this sought of blunder does not occur. It is common for people to say things like " if their is anything we can do" or The RAF will take care of everything but the truth is the public purse cannot be expected to pay for everything but the Squadron funds and associations could help out. I also agree that undertakers do charge excessive amounts for the "extras2 like tea and coffee.
One death is hard for any station to deal with but 13 at once is devastating so I can understand why confusions have arisen and it is very sad but it is not unfair. I am sure that those who attended the funeral and ate the luxury tea and biscuits could be prevailed upon to dip into their pockets and for less than the price of a pint send a donation to help cover the unexpected bill.

[Sentry Agitator]

Folks....

Thanks to all who have responded to the thread. I started this because of my utter dismay at the whole PR 'blunder' and the shambolick attitude by the civvies who hold the purse strings. I fully appreciate that the rules are written to avoid the 'taxpayer' from having to pay for excessive funeral charges? I wasn't aware that we now had a 'head value' that we weren't to exceed! It appears that the civvies now dictate how the armed forces should be saying fairwell to our fallen brethren regardless of uniform colour.

Many have said the JSP/AP issues are there for our guidance and are totally correct.....but these men and women, who loyally took an oath to serve their country, have paid the ultimate price in the service of that country on operations. Perhaps an AL1 covering Op service is warranted? I believe that there is a very big difference between a tragic accident within the routine serving environment and the loss of life in the line of duty....for want of a better phrase. I apologise to all those that don't agree with me but that's my standpoint.

The upper echelons nevertherless, saw fit to orchestrate a memorial service to pay hommage to the memory of those that paid the price. This was a very noble and justified act but it also included generating AT at a cost which, even when tied to a routine trg mission is still a COST! Even by my simplistic reckoning, I think getting all those personnel (and regalia) to the service would have cost the taxpayer over 1K? Indeed, I would guess that the total may have been more than the cost for flowers, tea and biscuits for all of the crew in this instance. I don't know if refreshments were provided after the event as I wasn't able to attend due to other tasking but if it was who picked up the tab?

As it now appears that we are being censored in publishing opinions on a public forum perhaps freedom of speach also comes at a cost too great for us to bear.....what is happening to this glorious country of mine?

As my closing wish....should anyone have the details of a memorial fund that was set up after this tragic accident, could you please PM me so that I can sleep easier with my conscience, clear in the hope that somebody, somewhere will think likemindedly and put this whole sorry issue to rest.

We now stand at over 130 servicemen and women lost in the line of doing their duty for something that they took pride in doing to the best of their ability. So that would be a little 130K for the families to see off each and every one lost in a manner befitting their sacrifice and in the company of those that cherish their memory. A small amount compared to the daily cost of keeping personnel in harms way.

It makes my heart bleed knowing that if Mrs Agitator has to put me away......she may have to turn away some of my colleagues for fear of not having sufficient funds to buy a few extra Hob Knobs!

Yours despondently

SA:{

[mojocvh]

As it now appears that we are being censored in publishing opinions on a public forum perhaps freedom of speach also comes at a cost too great for us to bear.....what is happening to this glorious country of mine?


? can someone (re) explain this please? :uhoh:

sorry

DUMBO MoJo

[An Teallach]

Mojocvh

See post by line 35 @ 08:11:
Further to my previous posting ref trying to gain a contact to make a contribution towards the cost - I was officially talked at, at some length and left in no doubt as to the official stance. My point of view was not welcomed and earned me the disapproval of those on high.

As a serving member I can make no further input into this thread..... other than to say if anyone else has any better luck in finding out how Mrs Line 35 can make a donation let me know!

[The Swinging Monkey]

SA,
I agree with you about the costs involved. However, as you rightly say, the flights can be put down to training missions so there is is no 'real' cost to the service budget.

I do however, get annoyed when sorties are generated for the sole purpose of allowing very senior officers to get a 'type' in their log books. I remember very well a sortie generated to fly a certain 'McFadge' on a trip. The wx was ool, the only div open was a civilian airport, and the jet went there to do a few rollers and overshoots, just to satisfy the Air Marshall.

Now that has a real cost to the budget, as well as taking an unneccesary risk just to satisfy an airship.

TSM

[mojocvh]

Thank you.

[santiago15]

should anyone have the details of a memorial fund that was set up after this tragic accident

Donations to the MEMORIAL FUND can be made out to 'Service Funds' and sent to Sgt Morrison, 120 Squadron, RAF Kinloss, Moray, IV36 0UH.

[Pontius Navigator]

Two points.

As for VOs training, I do not believe VOs are trained nor would it be possible to do so. In this instance 12 VOs were required and no notice. How many pre-trained VOs would you need on a station? OTOH VOs will be briefed and that is nominated and briefed in very short order.

Finally, everyone I know who has previous knowledge has said that the appropriate mess or COs funds have picked up the incidental costs.

[rudekid]

Pontius

Unless the rules have been changed recently, their is a lot of confusion on here over the roles played by nominated RAF personnel.

The RAF nominates (I standby to be corrected) three 'officers' to three key positions:

1. The VO, who is normally a senior rank who informs the family of the bereavement. This (albeit traumatic) role is fairly short lived and I don't believe would require any additional training apart from the skills already possessed by most RAF personnel.

2. The Effects Officer, whose role is limited to looking after the personal belongings of the deceased as they pertain to the RAF. This involves things like lockers, desks, stuff returned from theatre and single accomodation if applicable. Again, a traumatic role, but one that IMHO doesn't require any additional trg.

3. I believe the confusion on here arises about the role of the Assisting Officer. The AO is appointed around the same times as the effects officer, normally after the VO has informed the NOK, but still early in the 'process'. They then visit the NOK and they'll possibly already know the NOK or be a Sqn mate of the deceased. This role is to act as the liasion between the RAF process and the family and is an enduring and difficult job. Inevitably, as an awful lot of time is spent with the bereaved, this job requires an awful lot of tact, sympathy and skill and not a little knowledge of the 'process'. It is this role which I believe the RAF gets badly wrong. The RAF should mandate that Stns hold a pool of ready trained personnel, with the ability for a larger crash, to pluck people from around the RAF (like we would with a BoI) if the requirement was too large for a single station. Now there is a lot of detail, which I won't bore with here, that would need to be resolved. I think we could give a lot better service to the families of the deceased if we had a little forethought as a Service.

This is not to denegrate the work any of the AOs, who do one of the worst jobs the military can give, with no training, little support and an open ended appointment. How they manage to do so well, given so little is a testament to their military training. But we could make it so much better...:sad:

I apologise if this info is out of date and I'm not a scribbly, so can't quote the JSP verbatim.

RK

[sarsteph]

RK,

the terminology has changed a bit since the introduction of the new JSP. You describe the 3 jobs well, but the names of the jobs are as follows:

The Visiting Officer has the task that you describe as the Assisting Officer - who has the long term task of representing the RAF to the bereaved family. It is a long, difficult and emotional task and I have the utmost respect for anyone who does it.

The person you describe as the Visiting Officer is in fact the Informing or Kinforming Officer, whose task it is to take the initial contact with the next of kin to confirm the injury, capture or death of their loved on. As you rightly state, that person has a short initial contact and may often never have any dealings with the next of kin beyond that initial kinforming.

Training is available from the Padres for Kinforming officers - covering issues like do's and don'ts when dealing with bereaved people, what to expect etc. Bereavement courses at the Armed Forces Chaplaincy Centre are also available and are very worth applying to do.

Increasingly, Visiting Officer training is also becoming available on stns too, usually run by the scribblies and the padres in tandem - covering the admin issues the VO will need to help the next of kin and the "soft-skills" of dealing over a prolonged period with bereaved people.

Hope this helps to clear up any confusion over terminology.

Editted to correct errors in spelling - oops!

[rudekid]

Sarsteph

Thanks for the info. I was a Visiting Officer (new money!) a couple of years ago and would have been very grateful for some training. The admin guys and Padres various were excellent and couldn't have been more helpful.

However, if we had (even) a few people trained on stn, I believe it would have helped a lot.

Glad to hear some training is now available, maybe the lessons are being learned, not just identified.

RK

[teeteringhead]

Terminology can't be that new. I was a VO (as described by sarsteph above) more than once more than 20 years ago and was called the Visiting Officer then .... in fact I shouldn't say "was"....

....... as the (very good) OC A said to me at the time "Being VO is a job for life......"

[Strato Q]

Terminology can't be that new. I was a VO (as described by sarsteph above) more than once more than 20 years ago and was called the Visiting Officer then .... in fact I shouldn't say "was"....
....... as the (very good) OC A said to me at the time "Being VO is a job for life......"
We must have gone full circle, because until recently it was the Assisting Officer, now the VO. The VO receives no formal training, just a brief and a video.
The Notifying Officer is the one who first notifies the NOK.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Anyway where do I send my cheque as a contribution, sorry limitted time to read all the way through the posts but having lost a few mates, I believe this to be a terrible state of affairs.

[Wader2]

Teetering head <<a job for life>>

Very true in one instance. A youngish, confirmed batchelor, ended up married with 5 kids to support.

[Strato Q]

SaddamsLoveChild - go back one page if you have time!

[Papa Whisky Alpha]

I must start by offering my apologies for the dissension caused by my comments regarding the "tea and biscuits" episode. This started as a disparaging remark I made on a web site, not about being asked to pay the bill but the way in which it was handled.
The next thing that happened was the Sunday Telegraph called me to enquire about the circumstances and also offered to pay the bill. I declined their offer.
Throughout this sorry episode I have on several occasions made it clear that neither my wife nor I have any complaints about the help and assistance that has been afforded us by everyone at Kinloss, and many from outside the Service. The posts on this site have in the main been supportive of my stance and for this I am grateful.
Even today the Sun "newspaper" has published an article about the matter, I have never spoken to them, everything is second-hand.
Lastly, there have been comments about what the VO should have done. the VO assisting our family did a superb job and has my grateful thanks, the fact that he still speaks to me after this is in itself a suprise.
The offending bill has been settled, end of story.

[An Teallach]

PWA
You have nothing to apologise for and, believe me, the great majority of us understood that the money was neither here nor there and that the VO would have done his best. What went wrong was that the first you heard of the bill was from the funeral director, not the Royal Air Force.

I didn't know Gary, and I can only offer my deepest sympathy to you on his loss. I can only pray that, should circumstances mean that another family not be forewarned exactly what the regulations cover or not cover by way of a funeral, no other family will be put through what your's has been put through. In better days in similar circumstances, any means would have been found to settle the bill rather than approach you and your family.

[PPRuNe Pop]

And on that note ladies and gentlemen I think we can safely, with thanks, close the thread.

PPP