Save The Red Arrows - Sign the Petition

[highcirrus]

SAVE THE RED ARROWS

The Red Arrows aerobatic squadron of the Royal Air Force brings huge pride and international prestige to the UK, but the Treasury bean-counters in our beloved Government want to axe the Reds to save a couple of shillings.

The personnel, pilots and aircraft of the squadron are all capable of deployment elsewhere in the RAF, so the money really saved would be peanuts.

Cynics might observe that the move is a covert campaign to expunge from the public mind a potent and highly visible symbol of the very best of the Royal Air Force as an independent Air Arm of a United Kingdom giving up its identity to Europe...

10 Downing Street website has an online petition (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/)(which is seldom mentioned to the public in the hope that it will be overlooked).

Please sign it. Don't let the b*stards get away with this.

Mods, any chance that this can have "sticky status" for a while?

[jstars2]

Had a look on the No 10 website for "further information" in relation to this particular petition :

Following admission by the MoD that funding for the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team - The Red Arrows - is to be reviewed under the latest Defence spending review, we, the British Public implore the Prime Minister to maintain funding to one of this country's most visible and recognisable symbols.

The Team stands as an internationally recognised symbol of the high standards and fine traditions of the British Military and in a time when this country has fewer things to be proud of, should be permitted to publicise the Armed Forces of this nation.

Looks like a pretty good petion to sign for anyone who deeply abhors the steep decline the country has suffered under the present "New Labour" terror and who remembers a time of collective and justified pride in the nation.

[Wader2]

It was on Radio Lincolnshire this morning. The District Council is saying it would be bad for tourism and jobs.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Thank you HC. I have now signed up.

Actually don't believe the Reds are in real danger. Their disbandment is regularly put into the estimates as an alternative assumption, but that means nothing really. The savings would be negligeable and the negative fall-out collossal so there is no way they will be taken. That is until their Hawks need replaceing. Then there will be a real punch-up.

[haltonapp]

If scrapping the Red Arrows would ensure that some poor squaddie would get some extra equipment it would get my vote. As for the statement that nothing would be saved by scrapping them, how about the amount of fuel consumed punching holes in the sky, engineers who could be used on a squadron short of manpower and the aircraft and spares used where they would have some purpose.

[highcirrus]

haltonapp

I think that most people would like the “Dear Leader”, Tony, to honour his recent words in respect of operations in Afghanistan and, we hope, in respect of provision for all the Armed Services’ commitments, and ensure that every “poor squaddie would get some extra equipment”.

Unfortunately, he’s beholden to Iron Chancellor Brown (on account of the fact he didn’t have the guts to go through a leadership contest in the mid ‘90’s and relied on the cosy Granita Agreement with Gordon to see him through). As a presumed graduate of a fine Service training institution, as implied by your title, I know that you will realized that we have a Chancellor whose track record indicates, at best, antipathy towards the Armed Services and, furthermore, a willingness to seize any opportunity to “salami slice” funding to any Arm of the Services. Hence, any “savings” would not head towards the “poor squaddie” but would route direct to the Treasury coffers (to be thence poured down the financial black holes of Gordon’s favoured “voting fodder” staffed Departments).

Meanwhile, the RAF has to continue attracting recruits, maintain an independent presence with a wind blowing in a “service amalgamation” direction and attempt continuation of a fine tradition of demonstrable Service, National and International excellence, for which we will all be the poorer when another wonderful icon has tragically and willfully been obliterated.

Finally, I do believe that, as either current or ex-service personnel, we are all on the same side here. Whatever the exigencies of present-day service or the recent memories of arduous and dangerous times, the distaste for modern day corrupt and incompetent politicians or the political distancing which we may individually feel towards the Iraq adventure, we all, at one time, felt pride and affection for our particular Service. A vote in this petition is a demonstration to ourselves, as much as to our worthless politicians, that we believe in something intrinsically superb and representative of a great nation, even if they are too stupid to believe in it themselves.

[Max Contingency]

Do you want an air force or an aerobatics team? because there hasn't been sufficient funding for both for a number of years now.

I have to agree with haltonapp and I won't be signing.

Accepting the reduced level of display, the only circumstances under which I would support the saving of the RAFAT would be if the jets came off the line at Valley and the pilots were all QFIs.

The Yellow Helicopters generate more positive PR than the Red Arrows and they do something usefull at the same time.

[jstars2]

Professional Student

OK, it’s been on before, but a bit of a re-run won’t do any hard will it? Might even get a few more votes for what many would think is a very worthy cause.

Incidentally, Max Contigency, you say, “Do you want an air force or an aerobatics team?”. Maybe you could indicate what proportion of the total flying hours task and budget allocation the Reds take up, compared with the rest of the Air Force? Could be the answer might indicate your question is a red herring. Similarly, “there hasn't been sufficient funding (for both)" seems to lend weight to highcirrus’ posting above.

[whisperer]

Guess i will join the "No" vote.

Bullets and Body Armour Vs smoke trails in the sky.....

No contest,

Sorry

[Ordynants]

The Yellow Helicopters generate more positive PR than the Red Arrows and they do something usefull at the same time.
The SAR helo force is being dumped.
If we can't afford to keep something worthwhile like that why should we keep
a display team???:confused:
Definitely a 'No' vote

[cooheed]

Hear, hear HighCirrus

[Clockwork Mouse]

Well, I must admit I am astounded!

Tell you what, I have another proposal. Let's keep the Red Arrows and bin the rest of the Air Force, because if you lot and those drivelling idiots on the J vs K thread are representative of it, then it is a total waste of everything and is self-destructing anyway.

Give me strength!

[Pontius Navigator]

TV News, Look North, suggested the Reds might be moving









to Waddo!

[threepointonefour]

Saving the Glory boys is indeed commendable, but without a

"I DON'T WANT TO SAVE THE REDS"

petitition, our slimy government will get away with it.


ie. Suppose 1 million people sign the Downing St site's petition to save the Reds ... TB, in justification of his decision to scrap them, will point out that approx 59 million either don't want them or couldn't be @rsed to log on. He may even cut the 59m down, taking into a/c kids and non-internet able people and still claim that only 1 in 20 of the UK public want to keep the Reds.

AL1 to the above ref to TB's decision .... obviously he'll make someone else make the decision, after a one-sided, pre-determined inquiry led by a Red Arrows skeptic which recommends ditching them.



One-sided petitions are fine, but they don't mean a thing to this lot (look at the Countryside Alliance!). Also take a look at his response to the 'Save Northolt's Heritage' response - basically, "We agree with you, the British People, about historical preservation, so we've made the RAF choose which two bits of the station they want to keep and which they would like us to bulldoze."


ps. My reference to the Countryside Alliance is illustrative only - I'm with the foxes on that issue!!

[threepointonefour]

how about the amount of fuel consumed punching holes in the skyHaltonapp's right - we are in the AIR FORCE after all. We should be SAVING the fuel, not using it!

If only he could comprehend how much gets used by some of the other fleets, ...... he'd be aircrew !!
3 mins of Tornado 'burner = a whole Reds sortie!!

Just to fly the flag for a mo', UK business generated by the Red Arrows displays worldwide probably far exceeds the cost of fuel, maybe even of running the unit, but these figures are I'm sure, unavailable.

And as a 2nd stab at the RAFAT cash cow, the Reds' prescence at UK air shows generates a massive income for many UK traders and organisers (who typically try to put them on last so they can milk the "British People" for as much as poss).


engineers who could be used on a squadron short of manpowerAll 85 of them ...? How many excess engineers are in stupid, non essential jobs around the RAF? Tons.


aircraft and spares usedDoes the Hawk have a spares problem? Never heard of that one. You should have been on a Tornado squadron !!

[Roguedent]

All you muppets who say no to the Reds..:ugh: :ugh: please hand in your PVr and go join the Army. We should be asking for a increase in the budget, not cuts!! You joined the RAF, have some loyalty. HaltonApp and ProStudent, please can I know your respective trades, so I start a petition to have your jobs removed to Quote' Get Bullets and Body Armour' to the squaddies. Yes, I may have bitten, but my God GET ON SIDE:mad: :mad:

[whisperer]

I honestly don't think its a question of misguided loyalty.

Yes we should be asking for a (MASSIVE) increase in the budget, but do you honestly think TB and the rest of the incompetents would dare allow it, there are far more deserving causes, but that's for another debate!

As it seems certain, like night follows day, that we will again be seeing both budget cuts and rising costs, I feel that we have to do the best with what little we have.

If that means the end of the red PR machine (and I am a fan of them) Then so be it. We MUST be realistic and spend where it is needed most, and that, in these troubled times is supporting the front line troops of allthree services.

[Max Contingency]

We should be asking for a increase in the budget, not cuts!!

Why didn't i think of that! Of course, all we need is an increase in budget, then we can afford an aerobatics team.

Heres the plan:
I'll pop up to Main Buiding and explain that the British taxpayer will just have to dig a little deeper. If that doesnt work, then I'll just ask for some money to be diverted away from Education, Health or other such nonsense, after all it would be going into Defence..... Oh no hold on aerobatics aren't really defence are they. Oh damn, just when the plan was really coming together.
:rolleyes:

[ProfessionalStudent]

Roguedent

Hang on a mo! I'm on the Sparrows' side. I just didn't see he point in having 2 petitions running when efforts can be focussed on just1 and have more names on that.

As has been well discussed on the other thread, the Reds cost around £5-6M a year, which is really a drop in the ocean for HM Gov plc. It wouldn't even pay for some black tape around some civil servants' telephones or more than a few chairs or desks in Main Building. And if they were chopped, would that £5-6M really be spent on boots and bullets and guns for our front line troops? Really? If you think the answer is "yes", then you're more naive than I thought you were.

There are fewer and fewer symbols that project the armed forces into the public eye these days (at least in a positive sense). Whilst guys are showing utmost bravery on the ground, that doesn't recruit people. The Reds, the Blue Eagles and the RN Historic Flight (they're still up and running aren't they?) don't just recruit pilots. They get people through the doors of the AFCO, and in this day and age when joining the Forces seems anathema to young people, that can only be a good thing.

£5-6M is small fry on the big scheme of things and probably more successful than "You don't have to fly to be in the RAF" and "My job's more important than yours, stick monkey" (sorry Navy).

If it was a plain choice between the Red Arrows and guns and bullets, then I would be signing up to the "Bin the Red Arrows" petition faster than you could say "Diamond Nine". But it's not. Gordon Brown will take the money and give it to some lesbian extremists "asylum seeker" to buy a house and ship the rest of their families over.

So, Red Arrows or more asylum seekers? The choice is yours.

[wee one]

Personally I dont think they are that good.;)

Could we outsourse it o a civilian contractor or maybe use one of the good Yank teams.:confused:

[threepointonefour]

Nicky Campbell interviewing some politcal expert about Downing St petitions ...

"Do politicians ever take any notice of online petitions where protesters just tick a box?"

No.

"Which is more influential? Column inches in the press, or a petition?"

Definitely column inches, without a doubt. Politicians live by the press and, rightly or wrongly, react to press pressure.



Online petition = wasted time - put your efforts into a more public campaign and shame them into keeping the Reds. Or just pay to have 'The Blades' painted red and pass them off as an RAF asset ...

[ProfessionalStudent]

...or maybe use one of the good Yank teams.

I think I've spotted your problem there wee one...:E

But what about this...

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p121/Vortex999/astyraba.jpg

[Anotherpost75]

threepointonefour

Not too sure that you are correct when you say “Online petition = wasted time”. This from the Telegraph seems to say differently.

Democracy will never be the same again
By Shane Richmond, Online News Editor 13/02/2007

More than one million people have now signed the petition against road pricing on the Downing Street website, making it the most significant example of internet-driven politics yet seen in Britain.

The petition is available only online and the web is also driving participation, with people emailing their friends to urge them to add their names.

As with most internet phenomena, the trend is further advanced in the United States, where politicians have for years been using the internet and email to garner support and harvest donations. But increasingly the voters have been using the internet themselves, particularly to publish and share "gotcha" moments.

If anyone really wants to sign a petition that will increase pressure on Bliar’s “government”, check out here (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/) and make your mark!

From the website.

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it. The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working mother who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month.

On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit in time you can probably expect a Notice of Intended Prosecution with your monthly bill.

If you care about our freedom and stopping the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website.

Could be this one's worth signing?

[threepointonefour]

AP75,

I can go with you to some degree, but think back to the the much PROMISED Euro referendum ...

Everyone knows that the VAST majority want it. There have been petitions, protests and letters. And yet we still have yet to see it, even tho we were told it would be in this governmental term.


All public opinions can all be ignored or rubbished - the spread was not representative etc etc. They'll ask emotive questions when the time is right like,

"Would you rather spend £30m over the next 5 yrs on your local hospital or on maintaining the Red Arrows?"

or

"Disbanding the Red Arrows will save £30m over the next 5 yrs which will equip all our soldiers in Iraq with body armour. Would you prefer body armour for our troops or the Red Arrows?"



The right outcome from a pre-determined review will always be followed. And if by some fluke, the outcome isn't desired, they'll even rubbish their own inquiry (as they did recently). And should they not go so far as trashing it, they'll "interpret" it differently.

Should they decide to keep the Reds, THEY will announce it as thought they've saved a dodo (sorry about the analogy) from extinction. "Aren't we the saviours?"

My point is that they'll do what they want. We are not yet at the US stage of cash driven politics (I said, "yet") and so the comparison is a little premature.


sincerely,

Disillusioned.

[threepointonefour]

I had to sit thru an EO day at a secret Lincs trg base recently ...

We all had keypads and had to answer Qs pesented on screen. The presenter asked a question,

Q5. What is the highest female ranking officer in the RAF?
a. AM b. AVM c. AC d. Gp Capt


He then told us the answer (for those of us that didn't know),

A. I recall it was Gp Capt (as the Air Cdre was retiring).

... and subsequently twisted the next question's result.


Q6. How long before we see a female officer become CAS?
a. Never b. At least 25 yrs c. Within 10 yrs d. Within 5yrs

Obviously, given timescales of the aforementioned newly promoted Gp Capt, answers c & d were out, meaning that we all answered b or a.



Interpretation: over 90% of RAF personnel believe it will be at least 25 yrs
before the service is led by a woman.


It's all about what you ask and how you leave the question open for interpretation. Sometimes, the answer is irrelevant.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"over 90% of RAF personnel believe it will be at least 25 yrs
before the service is led by a woman."

Breathes BIG sigh of relief ;)

[Flt Lt Spry]

I had to sit thru an EO day at a secret Lincs trg base recently ...

We all had keypads and had to answer Qs pesented on screen. The presenter asked a question,


I liked the "Why do you think that there aren't more homosexuals in the RAF?" question. I think that asking a group of civilian homosexuals why they haven't joined would elicit a more suitable response.

Coincidently, of the 80 or so guys in my brief, there were about 30 bisexuals and 30 homosexuals. I can only assume that the other 19 were dog f@ckers, but that wasn't an option?!

[Flt Lt Spry]

PS Sign this petition whilst you're at it:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Workcamps/

Only 19 signatures so far :{

[Flt Lt Spry]

Ratty, I went for trisexual: I will try anything sexual :p

[vecvechookattack]

This is a gen dit...I recall (about 25 years ago) sitting in Shareholders when the AEO stood up and announced that women had been accepted as Engineers......the CO stood up at the end and said "Don't worry boys, there is no way I am going to allow any women to maintain the aircraft I fly in".....Absolutely gen......

.... You couldn't make it up could you ?

[haltonapp]

That's what I like about PPRUNE, after a page of posts the initial thread is lost!

[toddbabe]

I cant vote for it, as some have said the reds Pr machine gets people into the Afco's front door whereas operational stuff doesn't!
Well chaps and chappesses where do you think you will be going if you get in?
The reds is full of tossers who think they are the ultimate, poncing about in open top classic sports cars, shades on and their pristine Armani flying suits on, even the groundies on the "circus" as it is known love themselves and look down on any other groundie fortunate enough to not wear the blue overalls!!
Am sure they do bring a certain ammount of trade to Uk but doubt it's that much! would prefer to see them on the frontline earning their keep with the rest of us instead of mincing about.

[threepointonefour]

The reds is full of tossers who think they are the ultimate, poncing about in open top classic sports cars, shades on and their pristine Armani flying suits on, even the groundies on the "circus" as it is known love themselves and look down on any other groundie ...

Not true. Any of it.

A popular view, but having been fortunate enough to fly with them a number of times, and knowing a good few of them, the vast majority of air and ground crew are excellent value for the tax payers money. they get asked to do more and more each year to justify their existence, and their schedules get busier and busier while they put their personal lives on hold and yet they still manage to sign kiddies autographs at airshows.

That kind of publicity is hard to come by.

[Tinymonkeys]

Just a thought people, the next time the Sparrows come over, especially if its a none airfield show, don't watch them, watch the people around you. Even the most non avaition person will stop and gawk. Ask some passing herbert in the street, he won't know a tornado from a milk float but he will probably know what the Sparrows are.
Yes, I do know the crews can be a bunch of posers but so what, Mozart was a complete pillock. The performance they put on is a work of art and should be preserved as such. I am deadly serious in saying that they are just as much a part of British culture as Big Ben, a Constable painting or a poem by Sassoon.
A civilised country is judged by its culture, is it humane, does it produce things that are worthy and inspiring. Something is not always the sum of its costs, sometimes it is greater than that. And the Arrows are part of that, they are the best in the world. Yes they are a luxury maybe even an indulgence but so is all art.
It shouldn't be about hospitals or Arrows, we need both.

[nurjio]

Err...toddbabe, we didn't ...."think".... we were the ultimate (formation aerobatic team), we were the ultimate (formation aerobatic team), and still are, so , get off the computer and **** off back to the frontline and 'earn yer medal'. By getting personal you reveal yourself to be a **** (Nark).

nurj :}

Omnia mea mecum porto , but not in your case, toddbabe. :=

[boristhemini]

As a father who has a lad serving in Iraq with 24Rgt RA in Baghdad, then yes I want him to have the best kit available, instead of me and his mom having to pay for basic kit! But it was a visit to RAF Cosford Airshow that got him interested in the military after he saw the REDS. Those of you who think that the "savings" will be spent elsewhere within the MOD are quite obviously deluded. It is part of our history. I was pissed off when some of our regiments were stood down or "merged" to enable defence costs to be better used. Yeah like that has really had a profound impact on funding our boys in an illegal war with decent protection. :ugh:

[toddbabe]

3.14 it is true I used to be based alongside them many moons ago I am not going along with some wider held view from people that have never met them.
They were and still are posers that are not contributing anything to the front line where we need bods the most.
Don't give me they are busy! they ought to try living in a tent six months of the year and do some operational flying where the only people interested in watching you are trying to shoot you and not with a bloody camera:mad:.
Busy claiming expenses and playing golf with their nice shiny sponsored clubs that they all got, more like!
Don't get me wrong given the choice I would rather play golf (Not with them) and not go to the desert for half the year but I wouldn't expect the tax payer to pay for it, I would like them too but with everyone else getting the **** end of the wedge why should they be any different?
Pure indulgence.
Good riddance.

[Stitchbitch]

Cast the line...I can see that worm...gonna bite...
Toddbabe, I realy can't see your point. I have been on ops with at least one of this years team, and I think you'll find most present team members have been involved on ops in the last ten years. Times they are a changing.:eek:
Perhaps there are some sour grapes somewhere?:confused:

[threepointonefour]

Toddbabe: They were and still are posers that are not contributing anything to the front line where we need bods the most.I don't get your point either. You say you knew them many moons ago but claim that the current members are posers and tossers? How so?

For anyone that can make it, go and spend a day with them on one of their many In-Season Practice days (invariably at a weekend) and watch how they interact with the many members of the public that they invite. Watch the children's (future pilots) faces. See how their parents look at the guys with respect for their attitude to the young, old and infirm guests. So what if they 'pose' at airshows?

They are fallible, but that doesn't mean they're worthless. How else can you keep the military in the public's eye for a few million each year? By keeping them in peoples faces, we are all constantly reminded of the fact that we have actually got a military. From this base we can then lobby the fools on the hill for better equipment for those frontline troops/aircrew etc.

And as has been mentioned - ALL the guys have experienced of frontline 'ops', non more so than the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan. We've all done 'ops' of one kind or another, so if all you really want is a contest then why not direct your attention to asking why there are 60+ Gp Capts in MoD or 30+ at Wyton?

[toddbabe]

Don't get me started on the Air Officer thing:=.
Am not really bothered whether they stay or go just can't see why were getting so excited about it when their is far more too worry about in this shambles of an Airforce.
Have in the past enjoyed the displays thet they put on and they probably are the best in the world but to me they are still a luxury that in times of conflict aren't really a priority.
We have critical shortages in manpower in certain areas which mean that others have to spend increased times away on ops away from their families at increased levels of risk.
Yes of course they have all probably done ops recently (ish) but that isn't the point in this case, they aren't being gainfully employed supporting ops or training their replacements on the front line or even doing some related admin job.
My main argument is that if this tinpot Government is going to strip us of lots of other benefits,financial as well as professional and logistical then really why are we so bothered about a flying club for posers?

[ProfessionalStudent]

Despite the scoffing and cynicism on this thread, the Reds obviously have a place in the public's heart as the number of signatories is now 13000, with 8500 adding their names (several senior officer too, and at least one retired 2*) in the last 3 days.

It is now the 8th most signed petition and, somewhat ironically, it's higher in the list than the "Save the Royal Navy" petition. All this goes to show that the Team IS valued by the public at large.

Much has been written in the press recently about the value of these petitions, but Tony Blair is to send an email to every one of the 1.5m or so signatories to the Road Pricing petition. A relatively recent addition to the public's right to reply and with time it will probably gain stature as the system matures. Detractors say that there are lots of ridiculous petitions that devalue the whole idea, but I bet there are plenty of Mickey Mouse petitions signed by a handful of "revolutionaries" plopping onto the mat of Number 10. If nothing else, it raises the profile of issues and instigates public debate. Yes, of course it's made it all too easy to voice opinions to the government, but at least it gets people involved that otherwise wouldn't have bothered their arses writing a letter. And isn't being able to express those opinions in a democracy what we, the military, defend? (Cue more thread drift...)

I think we should be happy that Joe Public takes enough notice of the Reds to actually sign up. I think the Navy's doomed though:{

[Wannabe1974]

"I am deadly serious in saying that they are just as much a part of British culture as Big Ben, a Constable painting or a poem by Sassoon."

Well if so, how about the Royal Yacht? She was around a lot longer and was arguably a far greater part of British Culture. That didn't prevent her disposal and it seems that no-one really misses her either!
The comment that the pointless, ignored petition regarding the RN is attracting less signatures than the pointless, ignored petition about the Red Arrows is pretty daft given that the general public are pretty ignorant about what it is we do as armed services, for them. The fact that they think that preserving an aerobatic team is more important than maintaining vital front line maritime security, along with all the other george about theatre entry, power projection etc etc, is a staggering indictment of public opinion and just goes to show that we are a fundamentally shallow nation, more interested in preserving entertainment for ourselves than caring about the less interesting, but critically important issue of operational capability. I know which I'd rather keep and I think its a real shame that there should have be a choice between the two, as I think that the Reds are an awesome sight and the pilots highly professional. But if you have a Govt with such a limited understanding of defence, as we do now, then there are hard choices to be made. If chopping the RA's saves just one fragment of OC, then so be it.
I bet those boys out in Afghanistan who haven't even got a decent amount of armoured vehicles and next to no helicopters aren't wishing for an air display and an ice-cream to help them out.
Well, maybe they'd like an ice-cream...

[highcirrus]

Just checked the petition website and the votes are 14,825 in support of the proposition that, the Prime Minister continue funding for the Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team - The Red Arrows. If the present "sign-up" progress is maintained until the petition's cutoff date of 24 July 2007, the Prime Minister (whoever incumbent at the time) and "government" will surely be obliged to take note?

If potential supporters have just entered the thread at this point, they can vote here (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/) rather than trouble to trawl through from the begining!

[dallas]

I'm a 'save them' if they stop draining on over-tasked resources, such as the C130 that always seems to be in tow, but that could also be said of the Falcons every summer weekend too. It would also be interesting to see if the Blues are fully manned, particularly while other squadrons - not necessarily pointies - are suffering manning shortfalls. Our 'spare' should go to display teams, not the other way around.

And if we do need to reduce spending, how about a review of all the flypasts (inc. practices) and other jollies that happen way too frequently. If we stop p1ssing around so much with our allegedly stretched forces people might start asking what's happening!

[kms901]

We spend £6.5m a year on the British Potato Council, which has just be running "Chip Awareness Week".

Abolish that and give the money to the Reds.

[rudekid]

3.14
And as has been mentioned - ALL the guys have experienced of frontline 'ops', non more so than the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan. We've all done 'ops' of one kind or another, so if all you really want is a contest then why not direct your attention to asking why there are 60+ Gp Capts in MoD or 30+ at Wyton?
15th February 2007 00:00

I think not chap, even by their own admission!

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red7.html

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red5.html

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/red9.html

Those exercises must have really tested them operationally! Someone may correct me, but I don't remember the F3 ever having flown operationally in Iraq. If it hasn't, is this walting?

Front line credibility? Some, but not all.

Much as I enjoy watching them, the writings on the wall.

Possibly the best display team in the world, but unjustifiable when we are fighting two wars.

[Gnd]

Not sure I would fight hard to save but I think the PR would stop mention of visits to 'Other places' on Op tour so as not to 'upset' the paying public. Be a neutral as possible, we need to keep all our fans on side.

Having worked with them in the past, their rep is worse than the truth!!!

[AeroTow]

You cant take the reds away! me and my girlfriend met during one of their displays!:):ok:

[EnigmAviation]

Yes, the REDS do have a value in PR terms, and yes, they do have and have had front line experience - one of my young proteges of years ago is currently bombing Afghanistan after being with the Reds in recent years.

You may not like the style and b:mad:it but it does promote the RAF image at home and overseas in every sense. They are, at the end of the day, qualified professionals doing a limited tour of duty in between normal tours - don't let petty jealousy and bigotry displace the real argument which is whether Accountants, "suits" at MoD, and Management Consultants should rule HM Services. One Station Commander whom I had the good fortune to work for in recent times prior to my own retirement, PVR'd as he felt that he no longer had real control of his own station infrastructure.

However, times are hard, and ALL sacred cows are up for review. I accept that there are many other areas of excess and percieved areas of inefficiency and savings, but the services in general cannot be insulated from the cold winds of economics at every review. All that I would hope to see is that cash is spent wisely and in areas where there is greatest need.

Agreed too that the management "pyramid" needs to be subjected to the process of "lean-ing" rather than carrying on as though we still have an RAF of 90,000 and WWIII to fight.

Let's just hope that the same breed of bean counters who have been "Trojan horsed" into the NHS do not make all the decisions - as we wouldn't want the RAF to be as over-managed as the NHS in terms of front line staff to Senior Manager ratios, would we?

The problem is that the same breed of guys with a Degree in Underwater Basket Weaving and precious little front line experience make the decisions to chop the wrong wires, and when the lights go out they realise all too late that they can't repair the damage.

When you've PVR'd yourself you'll find it's exactly the same in the world outside the RAF - Accountants now rule the world - not the Taliban !

[KENNYR]

I would much rather see the money that is wasted on the Red Arrows every year spent on such minor things as body armour for EVERY person serving in harms way, decent armoured vehicles which may combat road side bombings or bonuses (by way of tax free salaries) for our brave men and women placing their lives on the line for Queen and Country in god-forsaken sh*tho*es in the world.

My god, the money could even be donated to the Conservative Party campaign funds so that the biggus dickuses in no 10 can be removed as soon as possible.

[It's Not Working]

Mig15, check PMs

[Megaton]

Cancel all those glossy tv adverts that the Armed Forces have as well then? Seem to remember the Army running a tv ad campaign a few years ago that cost more than the Reds budget for the year.

[threepointonefour]

Rudekid: Those exercises must have really tested them operationally! Someone may correct me, but I don't remember the F3 ever having flown operationally in Iraq. If it hasn't, is this walting?

Said Red 9 was a student of mine and I can attest to his presence over Iraq in an F3 when things were shooting from the ground. I suppose you only class, 'declared wars' as frontline ops?

Rudekid: Front line credibility? Some, but not all.

Having met the other two you see fit to mention, I can attest to their humility and credibility. You don't get all the way through trg, to the Jag and then chosen for the Reds without credibility, frontline or not.


HighCirrus: Just checked the petition website and the votes are 14,825 in support of the proposition ........


New Labour spin: 0.025% of the population want to keep the Red Arrows. 99.975% of the UK either do not want to keep funding the Reds or have no firm opinion one way or another.

[rudekid]

3.14

And as has been mentioned - ALL the guys have experienced of frontline 'ops', non more so than the Harrier pilots in Afghanistan.

Don't know how being on exercise correlates with being on Ops. I'm only pointing out that you can't justify the existence of the Reds by demonstrating their successful history of employing operational pilots.
Sorry if I seem obtuse, but just to confirm they don't all have 'ops' experience, unless you mean 'ops' in a different way to how the deployable RAF do 'ops'! Mind you if, as I suspect, you're from the F3 then you may not know the difference anyway;) Banter switch on.

I genuinely don't remember the F3 deploying on Telic, but standby to be corrected. Someone must be able to enlighten us about the F3's being shot at? Surely fighter mates wouldn't be hiding their lights under a bushel...:E

As I have previously stated, I think the reds are excellent and it will be a shame to lose them. I still don't believe that we can justify their existence in the current climate. Now, if we changed it to 9 line jets out of Valley, flown by 9 current QFIs from Valley, this would be a more acceptable presentation. It wouldn't matter that this would actually be virtually the same thing and that you wouldn't get much mileage out of either the jets or the pilots, but you may be able to justify their existence to the wider community.

Sadly, it's adapt or die IMHO.

[The Swinging Monkey]

rudekid
Being on OPS is not the same as being in a declared conflict and is certainly not just a case of being shot at you know!

I flew Nimrods during the Falklands - Didn't get shot at once!
Flew E-3As during GW1 - Didn't get shot at then!
Flew E-3Ds during Bosnia, Kosavo - Didn't get shot at then either!
Flew E-3Ds during Afghanistan - Nope, didn't get shot at then either! and
Flew E-3Ds during GW2 and Nah, still didn't get shot at!!! (Maybe I'm just lucky)

I think that you will find that most, if not all the Arrows' pilots have been on 'ops' many times, and I can assure you that they have ALL most definately done several 'ops' tours

We should NOT have to justify the Red Arrows at all. They represent the very best of the RAF and of the country as a whole. Do you know of any better way of promoting this country? They fly 6 to 8 trips per day (wx permitting) and your ideas of using 9 QFIs just would not work. The same goes for the airspace at valley. They need a big chunk of sanitised airspace to practice each day.

As for the costs - well I'm not entirely certain here, but I think that you will find that a huge lump of it is paid by BAe for the promotion of the Hawk aircraft, and whilst there is obviously a cost to the taxpayer, in this day and age it is frankly, negligeable.

KENNYR
'I would much rather see the money that is wasted on the Red Arrows every year spent on such minor things as body armour for EVERY person serving in harms way' If you knew anything about the services, then you would know that any savings made, irrespective to where they come from, DO NOT go back ionto the Defence budget! Gordon keeps it for himself, to give to all those nice asylum seekers and imigrants, so do bear that in mind! When its gone - its gone for good! I do agree with you though about getting this bunch of fools out of government asap!

Kind regards to all
TSM

[threepointonefour]

TSM,

Thanks, I agree.


ps. I agree with your comment about the re-distribution of funds. I'd rather see the £48000 spent on new curtains for No10 spent on body armour - I think people look to the headline grabbers (Red, BBMF etc) rather than at why some MPs claim expenses for second houses etc.


Rude Kid,

The "deployable" F3s have been shot at in a number of different arenas - ie Op Deny Flight, Op Southern Watch. I can't clarify the Jag guys credentials re Northern Watch, but "deployable" Jags have been shot at there too (and during Deny Flight).

All the named 'ops' (as evidenced by the name Operation Southern Watch) were not conflicts, but 'ops' nonetheless. I think you're picking at my words a little too much and perhaps should give the offrs in question a little more credit.




The fact is, the Reds pay for the kudos with a packed schedule (resulting in a sporadic social and family life), unforgiving professionalism and constant public demands at airshows worldwide. I'm just not sure that a petition will save them if the threat is that great.

[Megaton]

BAeS don't pay a penny towards the upkeep of the Reds. There are contibutions, however, towards the press and pr material. Only exception to this are overseas tours which are generally funded by industry through DESO.

[wokkameister]

Where do I find the petition to get rid of the reds? Can I have some spares now?

[rudekid]

TSM

I think that you will find that most, if not all the Arrows' pilots have been on 'ops' many times, and I can assure you that they have ALL most definately done several 'ops' tours

Just visit the Red Arrows website and read it yourself. If can't be arsed to read what I've already written then that's upto you.


At least one of the chaps has only done one frontline tour. I'm sure they're all massively capable operators, but you can't win arguments about the 'ops' credentials of the Reds with something that isn't true. Most of the boys have done 'ops',I agree, but that wasn't the argument.

It would be interesting to hear a post from a Red (or former) about them flying six to eight sorties a day. Sounds like garbage to me I'm afraid.

You're probably over qualified for the Reds anyway, with all your Ops time!;)

The fact is, the Reds pay for the kudos with a packed schedule (resulting in a sporadic social and family life), unforgiving professionalism and constant public demands at airshows worldwide.:{ :{

Thanks for that 3.14, that must be a real hardship. Poor old Reds...having a sporadic social and family life, packed schedule . Sounds just like being on 'Ops":{

Now that's irony!

writingwritingwritingwritingwritingwritingwriting
wall

Just for those who can't see it!

[Growbag]

Having read the bio's of the new guys and hearing how strapped the Harrier force is for QWI's, you could get the whole of JFH signing the 'scrap' petition if the Reds hadn't have taken nearly 15% of the useful QWI experience from their front line/OCU. I'll admit that loop the loops are great......... but in these godforsaken times I think that priorities should be Operational.:=

[side salad]

Just out of interest, what do the airshows themselves pay towards the cost of the Reds appearing?

Whilst I fully understand the debate of "if we scrap them, we could spend the money on X", I suspect if they went the :mad: man in No 11 would not allow the money to be used where it is really needed, it would simply be diverted elsewhere and would just go looking for the next thing to scrap, BBMF maybe?

[Clockwork Mouse]

Rudekid

You certainly picked an appropriate title. Your rudeness and childishness is matched by your ignorance.

But what the hell. Have it your way. Bin the Reds. They are after all just a load of idle, posing, pampered, shirkers avoiding operations to wallow in self-glorifying publicity. And the rest of the RAF, who do a proper job and of whom you are a shining example, would be glad to see the wasters go.

And you of course would know, wouldn't you?

The Labour government want to give the vote to 17 year olds! Roll on armageddon!

[rudekid]

Clockwork Mouse

Maybe you should read my earlier posts chap.

Just to clarify for those too idle to read the full thread:

1. The Reds are arguably the best display team in the world. I love watching them.

2. I will be sorry to see them go.

3. I'm sure they work hard, but other people trying to justify their existence by spouting rubbish such as:

a: They've all done Ops, so they're all proven operational pilots with lots of op tours.

b: They justify their 'kudos' by having a disrupted home and social life.

c: They fly six to eight sorties a day.

If any of this is correct, I'd be glad to have my ignorance confirmed! Now you may see this as me picking holes in arguments, but I don't believe you win an argument by refusing to see fact. Not sure the present Govt believes that but....

If you can be bothered to look at the Red Arrows website you will see an awful lot of very qualified guys and capable operators who could be contributing to the front line more effectively, both Air and Groundcrew.

An awful lot of the RAF couldn't give a flying toss whether the Reds stay or go. Neither would an awful lot of the Army or Navy. If we have to make some cuts (and I appreciate this argument is more debatable vis-a-vis presentation) in order to ensure some additional front line capability, then I would see the Reds stop flying tomorrow.

When people are dying due to lack of equipment, it seems a little redundant to be arguing about the existence of an air display team. In an ideal world, everything would be affordable and be presented as having a value. However, in the real world of competing priorities, something has to give. The Reds have got to be at the lower end of that give list.

Whichever way you look at it it, the writing IS on the wall.

Rude, ignorant and childish...Did you write my AR?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Rudekid,
I hate to say this, but you are talking utter tripe!

1. I invite you to come to Scampton, on ANY day of the week and watch to 6 or 8 slots flown by the Red Arrows above the base. Clearly your knowledge of aviation is somewhat lacking, as if you knew anything about them, you would see that 'their' slots are clearly promulgated in Danger Area 313 (the big chunk of airspace over Scampton if you didn't know) I am not going to sit here and argue with you about it, you are wrong - endex.

2. Thanks for your comments about being over qualified for the Reds - but if only! Again, if you knew anything about the selection system, you will see that there is a distinct lack of AWACS aircrew in the Arrows! Indeed, you might have noticed that there is a bit of a lack of any 'heavy aircraft' pilots. Why do you think that is? Do you think its perhaps a 'fast jet' club eh? Or maybe its 'who you know' type of thing? Sadly not. It is a fact that the 'best' pilots go to fast jets (soory fellow heavy drivers) Now I would say that its all the ugly ones that go fast jet, and the suave, sophisticated, good-looking and debonair ones (such as myself) go to heavies! But it isn't true. They are there because they are the best - endex

3. The comments by 3.14 are absolutely spot-on 100%, and I would just point out that you are only proving to the rest of us that you know pretty much 'diddly squat' about military avaition, the RAF and aircraft and aircrew in general.

As I have tried to explain to you, they have ALL completed operational tours, that is a fact, and yet you seem to isbelieve that for some obscure reason - why? The current Boss has just finished an 'OPERATIONAL TOUR' on the GR4 Tornado. What is your problem?

If you don't like them, then fine. But please don't spout rubbish on here displaying your ignorance and lack of understanding.

Clockwork Mouse - guess Rudechild will be voting soon then eh?

Kind regards
TSM

[rudekid]

TSM
The original point, which I repeat considering your obvious inability to read the earlier parts of the thread, was this:

Point: The Reds have all done "Ops", made by 3.14.

Answer: Er. No they haven't.

Now, I'm not arguing that they haven't all done a tour on a FJ Sqn, but then that's because, THAT WASN'T THE ARGUMENT.

I believe you posted the following:
I think that you will find that most, if not all the Arrows' pilots have been on 'ops' many times, and I can assure you that they have ALL most definately done several 'ops' tours


Now, unless I'm missing something, that appears to be your emphasis on the ALL. You're wrong.

3.14, with whom you agree 100%, believes the following:
The fact is, the Reds pay for the kudos with a packed schedule (resulting in a sporadic social and family life), unforgiving professionalism and constant public demands at airshows worldwide.

Interesting statement that don't you think? Wonder how the SH fleet feels about that comment, or the C130 fleet, or TCW, the Nimrod Fleet, TACATC, RAF Regt, 16 AAB or 42 Cdo just to name a few.

I remain interested as to how many sorties a day the pilots fly. As an AWACS guy, you may realise that 8 slots booked into R313, doesn't necessarily equal eight sorties flown.

Nonetheless, none of this is really that relevant. The Reds will be chopped, along with lots of other good things in life. I won't be signing any petition to keep them, because just maybe, if they're binned we might be able to justify keeping other vital programmes that may save lives. In case you hadn't noticed we're fighting two wars.

Thanks for the update on Red Arrows selection... I must work harder on my irony skillset.

[airsound]

World At One (BBC Radio 4) today ended with a piece on No 10 petitions - and at about 1325 they started a list of petitions to be taken "less than seriously" with the Reds petition, despite mentioning that it had more than 25000 signatures. I dashed off a quick email asking why they were treating it as not serious - hoping they might fit a mention in before the end of the programme.

They didn't - but I did get a nice personal reply from Shaun Ley, the presenter. he said they weren't intending to suggest it wasn't serious - but went on to say "it's good to be kept on our toes".

As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

airsound

[The Swinging Monkey]

Rudeboy

Obviously we are all wasting our time trying to educate you. I can see that you are someone who knows more about the Red Arrows, flying, the RAF in fact probably life in general more than anyone else.

OK, endex, you win. You are right and we are all wrong. AR$e.

TSM

[threepointonefour]

TSM, come on now,

As Rude kid said,

Wonder how the SH fleet feels about that comment, or the C130 fleet, or TCW, the Nimrod Fleet, TACATC, RAF Regt, 16 AAB or 42 Cdo just to name a few.

You have to admit that the Harrier pilot who does 2 'frontline' tours before joining the Reds, spending a whole 3 years ponsing about and then going back to the 'frontline' as a Flt Cdr ever gets any credibility! Harrier loser. :hmm:

[Archimedes]

I can hardly see a government as obsessed with spin as this one (or Gordon Brown's administration, since it'll have the same array of media advisers) getting rid of the Red Arrows.

Stop and think for a moment about which parts of the RAF the average voter - who constantly claims pride in all three services when polled - is aware of. The answer is, in no particular order - the Red Arrows, the Dambusters [extra point for them if they can give the squadron number] and the BBMF.

The likely scenario would be -
1. recommendation to disband Red Arrows reaches minister.
2. Minister confirms his suspicion that this would be very bad PR with his press team because polling suggests that the public have positive views on the Red Arrows.
3. Minister tells CAS to chop something else (adding 'and don't even think about saying 'the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight', Air Chief Marshal').

Brown and Browne may know little about defence, but they have sufficient imagination to realise how scrapping the Red Arrows would play in the tabloids.

Can you seriously imagine them being prepared to contemplate the front page of the Sun screaming out 'Brown Scraps Red Arrows: RAF Heroes chopped through lack of money' - particularly at a point when the Chancellor is endeavouring to cast a positive image of himself with the public? It may make operational sense, it may mean that the funds saved (if not clawed back by the Treasury) would be better used on the front line, etc, etc - but whether or not this is the case, it matters not a jot if that would negative publicity for the government.

[rudekid]

TSM,

You don't appear to be educating, just being insulting.

All seems to be an adjective you're having issues with using. You're not all trying to educate me or indeed, all wrong. Just like the all red Arrows pilots haven't all, most definately (sic) done several op tours.

Interesting discussion technique BTW. I note you haven't actually answered any of the points raised.

3.14

I agree, someone as you describe would have an immense amount of credibility. But you appear to have changed your position somewhat, following your earlier statements regarding the composition of the Reds.

Nonetheless your statement regarding the disruption to family life and social life has nothing to do with credibility.

You could argue that a Harrier Flt Cdr may have gained more credibility by remaining on the frontline.

I really don't wish to get into personal specifics, but the criteria you selectively argue don't appear to have been met on some occasions. Now you may have a greater insight of the specific requirements for Reds application/selection, but if you're assigning criteria based on supposition, then don't be surprised if someone questions those. Especially when your criteria are factually inaccurate.

It doesn't matter really whether all the Reds have done (what I would refer to) as Ops. What matters is their increasing irrelevance to the modern RAF. Now, I don't for one moment think that they are alone in their irrelevance, whether that be in Brown, Dark Blue or Light Blue. However, they are a highly visible element of the RAF, not performing their operational duties. This is always going to spotlight them and bring into question their role.

I don't believe this role is justifiable in the current climate. Especially not on the back of their 'operational' credentials.

I guess we'll be disagreeing!

[Wyler]

For or against the Reds, it makes little difference. The RAF will continue to be hacked at until it can't even put together a decent 5-a-side team. I am not so sure, however, that the Public will be that aghast at the demise of the team, should it happen. Look at the figures.


1,750,000 signed the petition against road charges.

25,000 so far have signed the petition to save the Reds.

That is less than one third of crowd that watched the last England Rugby 6 Nations game.

More people voted on last Saturday's Dancing On Ice Skate Off (so I've been told!:O ).

Methinks the Public have more pressing concerns these days.

Sad, but true.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Foregive the input from a former Pongo into yet another internal crab cat fight, but I really cannot let so much ill-informed and silly drivel go without comment.

I fail to see why the justification for the continuing existence of the World's finest and best known aerobatic team, which just happens to be British, should degrade into a personal attack on the operational record, credibility and quality of life of the pilots involved. I can only conclude that envy, petty jealousy and ignorance play a large part in pursuading idiots like Rudekid to keep venting their spleen in print.

Credibility? The Reds are selected from the ranks of FJ pilots. As we have not had to fight for air superiority with the Iraqis or Taliban, it is not surprising that they have less time in a combat environment than, for example, SH crews. So how does that effect their credibility? Credibility for what?

As for family and social life, the Reds spend a large proportion of each year away from their families. The 10 weeks training in Greece and Cyprus followed by an overseas display trip, just about every week-end for the rest of the display season, further overseas display trips, many week-ends outside the season keeping the many sponsors happy. I'm surprised their kids recognise them. It may look glamorous to the outsider, but in reality it is an unrelenting grind. The stress of close formation flying to such a level of perfection is also considerable. They are not being shot at, but neither are they sitting in comfort drinking coffee.

These guys are the cream of the cream of flying and, amazingly, are also a thoroughly nice, balanced, team-playing, unegotistical bunch of fellows. If they were not, they would not be what they are: the best.

If the likes of Rudekid want to get rid of them in the naive assumption that the minute resultant financial savings will make any noticeable difference to the price of fish, OK. They are entitled to their opinion. However, lay off the petty attacks on the quality, integrity and dedication of the people involved.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Oh Dear, Rude Child,

I had decided to bow to your superior knowledge and experience, but just to satisfy you, please outline your questions on here once again, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
I will answer them as honestly as I possibly can, but do try to remember that I am but a humble E-3 driver, not a fast pointy-thingy whizz-bang driver. I have given you the benefit of my mere 33 years experience and several million flying hours!, which you seem to have ignored, but hey, so what.

Note all your questions down for me and I will reply to them all. If I can't answer them myself, I will even give Scampton a ring and get it straight from the horses mouth for you.

Hows that? Will that be good enough for you or would you like some blood letting chucked in for good measure? What about a public flogging or hanging?

Regards
TSM

[Clockwork Mouse]

TSM

Make sure you don't exceed three syllables. He's not very bright you know.

[nigegilb]

If I was a cunning CAS wanting to make a very big political point I would pull the rug from under the Arrows. And then sit back and watch the political fallout. Joe public might even stand back and go "hang on, what is happening to the Air Force?" The RAF is rapidly becoming a busted flush, what better way of showing it? You can always re-establish the Arrows under a Cameron Govt, when the Tories ramp up defence spending!!

Nah, in the real world when they are gone they are gone, Cameron is covered in snake oil and my other mistake was mentioning cunning and CAS in the same breath.

[biddedout]

Surely, there are other ways of saving a litle MoD cash for the front line and for the Reds. For instance, does Betty still need to take three Nimrods and a Tristar with her when she goes on her holidays??:= Do we really need so many horses in the Army? Do todays kids really decide to join up to stand around outside Buck house in a bearskin? Come to think of it, do the computer games manufacturers market an action game entitles "standing around on guard and marching". No, it probably wouldn't appeal to the yoof of today, but the reds always will.

Having read all the reports about Blue on Blue engagements in the sandpit, I find it quite unbelievable that in this day and age, we are still relying on orange markers on vheicles rather than a decent IFF system. Road haulage companies and even dodgy minicab companies are are able to monitor their fleets to within metres with off the shelf GPS satelite tracking systems.

Someone in MoD spendng really needs to get their act together.

Effective reliable IFF systems in the battlefield, more support helicopters and then look at the Reds as a very important second priority.

How about a windfall tax on the city bonuses and oil industry profits to fund Typhoons for the arrows. :D

[chevvron]

The airspace above Scampton is NOT a danger area; it's depicted as R313 ie RESTRICTED airspace.

[I_stood_in_the_door]

1.8 million signed the anti new road pricing petition. Mr Bliar says it won't change anything. Demorcray - what democracy?

Shouldn't we be signing petitions (not that they will work) for both - save the red arrows and give us the right equipment. Oh, silly me. Its cheaper to pay out compensation when a poor soul loses ones life than to shell out the cash to upgrade our equipment to the required standard or in fact, buy the bl**dy stuff! Heaven knows what it will be like when Gordon the Granite Gopher takes the reins.

And still waiting for news on the pay review........OUCH!

ISITD

LFOGOOTFW

:ugh:

[rudekid]

Clockwork Mouse

You and the Monkey make a good team. You either can't be bothered to read earlier posts or don't understand what has been written.

I wonder if you're related in some way to a member of the Reds? You seem to be concerned about non-existent personal attacks (integrity questioned?) on them and your knowldge on the stress of low level formation flying seems to be quite in depth.

It's a pity that your other aviation knowledge isn't quite upto speed, but nevermind:

As we have not had to fight for air superiority with the Iraqis or Taliban, it is not surprising that they have less time in a combat environment than, for example, SH crews.

But, now at least you've generated some credibility with your depth of knowldege!:hmm: Luckily for you, I'm the idiot in print...

I have no personal axe to grind with any of the team. I'm not jealous, nor would I meet the skill level if I met the eligibility criteria. I also don't give a toss about whether Red 94 has 2.4 hours on the Jag from his only front line tour or 3500 hrs and a QWI tick from his three tours on the GR7. I'm sure they're all very capable operators who deserve a place on the team. However, none of this was the point.

You (I use the collective) can't increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they all have Ops experience when in reality it isn't the case.

You can't increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they work so hard (flying six to eight sorties a day-everyday) according to my friend TSM.

You don't increase the relevance of the Reds, or endear them to the rest of the military, by stating that they put their family and social lives on hold for a period of time.

On a personal note, I have known many of the Reds over my fifteen years in the military and count some as friends. Apart from these mates, I have met some good lads and some arrogant pr**ks (including a current member), but that's no different to any Sqn crew room.

Your comment:

These guys are the cream of the cream of flying and, amazingly, are also a thoroughly nice, balanced, team-playing, unegotistical bunch of fellows. If they were not, they would not be what they are: the best.

I think that makes your position clear!

As a mere non-display military pilot, who will see another 4-5 months in the sandpit this year, I feel qualified to comment on my perceptions as to their relevance. I won't repeat those here again, you'll have to scroll up the page.

I will miss the Reds, but I won't be shedding any tears. Especially whilst we've got underfunded ac (FW and RW) in harms way.

TSM- Thanks for sharing the benefits of your vast experience with me. Well done on your millionth hour, now any chance of getting your facts straight?

[Clockwork Mouse]

TSM

Go on, you have another go at the brat if you still have the patience. Don't think I can be bothered. I've just had a week-end of squabbling grandchildren and need some adult conversation. Good luck!

[The Swinging Monkey]

CM
Well I wasn't going to bother, but I've got another spare few minutes to waste on the fool, so here goes.

1. I didn't try to 'increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they all have Ops experience' I merely stated a fact that they have ALL completed operational tours. Now if you think otherwise, I regret you are wrong, so please stop being a fool and arguing otherwise.

2. I wasn't trying to 'increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they work so hard (flying six to eight sorties a day-everyday)' That again, is a fact. As I have said time and time again, do get off your bottom and come to Scampton and watch them for yourself. Or better still, if you are who you say you are, get onto Scampton ATC and ask them for the times of the Arrows' slots for the day. Then have the balls to come on here and say sorry.

3. I wasn't trying to 'increase the relevance of the Reds, or endear them to the rest of the military, by stating that they put their family and social lives on hold for a period of time' It is a fact that they lead a very hectic life, particularly during the summer months, being away most weekends etc. It's a fact, thats all.

4. Nver ever did I say that they worked any harder than anyone else in the service, or that they had a more stressfull life or that their families had it harder than any other families. I know that the same pretty much goes for all these days, but these are the facts. And again, if you are who you claim, then you should know that.

If, as you claim, you have known 'many' of the Red Arrows 'over the years' then why are you on here arguing about the number of slots they fly, and all this other stuff? Methinks that you are telling us a big porkie there young rudesprog. In fact, I'm not even sure you are a pilot, Aircrew or even in the Air force, such is your ignorance. Because if you were who you say, then you would know all about the FJ selection world, and where the 'best' go and where they don't go!

I you are really going back to the sandpit for another 4 - 5 months, then you are clearly NOT a FJ jockey, but some bitter, and jealous pilot who simply 'wasn't good enough' Well join the rest of us 'rude child' and get over it. I wasn't good enough, along with thousands of others. That dosn't mean we don't make a valuable contribution or we should slag off our fellow pilots just because we didn't make their grade. Do you take the same view as say the Nimrod Display Pilot? or the Harrier and F3 display guys? Now you may just see why you are being a little bit silly and need to grow up and join the real world.

Right, had enough now, endex. Do try to grow up just a tadge, there's a good boy!

Kind regards
TSM

[rudekid]

TSM

Clearly, you can't read your own text or bother to read that which has already been posted.

I give up.

Truly, protected by your kinds of facts, the Reds are safe.:ugh:

[Winco]

rudekid,
Are you really a pilot in the Royal Air Force?
I would have thought that any young pilot (but especially a one in the RAF) would aspire to join RAFAT, why not you?
The Winco

[The Swinging Monkey]

Clockwork Mouse,

At last, he's given up!!!!!!!!!
Thank God, we can all sleep safe knowing the rude embryo is saving the world.
Ahhhhhhhhh, bless him!
TSM

[Clockwork Mouse]

TSM

Well done mate! I'll sleep soundly tonight!

But wait! An awful thought has just struck me. Perhaps he is undermining the Reds on purpose, intent on usurping them and forming his very own aerobatic team, THE RUDE ARROWS!

Now I'll have nightmares.

[rudekid]

Winco

Yes and not so young I'm afraid!

As I mentioned:

I'm not jealous, nor would I meet the skill level if I met the eligibility criteria.

I think that probably all baby RAF pilots have looked at the Reds and thought about becoming one. Luckily for me and them, the decision was made for me.

Maybe it's easy to say from here, but I genuinely don't believe I'd have wanted to join the Reds even if I was a FJ mate. It certainly wasn't anything more than a fleeting thought for me, even when I was still (potentially) in the bracket. I know there are lots of guys from the FJ fleets who feel the same way.

Don't confuse my apathy for the Reds with some personal dislike. As I've said, they're fantastic to watch and I respect their skills. This of course doesn't mean that I have to bow to the likes of TSM, 3.14 or Clockwork Mouse and offer my unqualified support to the RAFAT. Like it or not, the Reds don't have this unqualified support from a sizeable portion of their fellow servicemen.

It's interesting to watch a thread degenerate into insults, but that demonstrates the intellectual abilities of some. How very fatuous.

[The Swinging Monkey]

CM

I knew it was too good to be true - he's back! And now he's telling the Winco chap that he never wanted to be a Red Arrow. Next thing he'll be telling us he didn't want to be in the RAF but was 'forced' into it by a big boy - shame.

Ah well, guess we'll be in for another days worth tomorrow! Think I'll go flying instead of reading this stuff tomorrow!

TSM

[wokkameister]

I was always told that the Reds pulled in a great deal of spending for the UK aerospace industry...let British wasteofSpace pay for them then.

As a taxpayer I am fed up subsidising industry indirectly. As aircrew, I am fed up getting crap we didn't want foisted upon us. Look at the Merlin

[Winco]

Wokka,
I would agree with you inpart, however, I would rarther subsidise BAe than see it spent on an asylum group or refugee camp, and unfortunately there lies our problem. This government has seen fit to plough more money into the likes of offenders, refugees et al, than into the armed forces. It is, without question deplorable, but those are the facts I regret, and I believe that the reletively small amount of money that goes to keep the Red Arrows flying is worth it many times over. As for not getting the kit you want - thats another forum, for which you have my sympathy Sir!

But you must know that any money that is saved by disbanding the Red Arrows will most definately NOT go back into service funds. It will go to building a new prison or an asylum holding centre for those who least deserve it, and if for no other reason than that, I sincerely hope that the Red Arrows stay.

As for the comments about the right kit for deployments, I would agree 100%, but as I have said, losing the Arrows will not help with that at all.

rudekid
I find that hard to believe that you did not want to become a Red Arrows pilot! Why on earth not? Nevertheless, I hear your comments, but would suggest that not liking an individual(s) within the team is no reason to dislike the team in general. To a large group of the public, the Red Arrows ARE the RAF. Now you and I and the rest of us all know that's not the case, but a lot of British tax payers are of that opinion and I don't think that we should deny them the opportunity of seeing one part or the RAF (granted, only a small part) performing for the people that pay yours and their wages, do you? After all, if we lost the support of the public, then it really is night night!!

The Winco

[wokkameister]

Winco, put like a gentleman and a scholar. Alas I feel you may be on the money with the theorum that the cash saved will be siphoned off to another 'worthy cause'

[rudekid]

Winco

I see your point and understand your premise. Also thanks for putting it across in a reasonable manner. ;)

However! :E

I don't agree the Reds are one of the things we should be fighting hard to keep. In an ideal world, we would be able to afford all things shiny and nice and maintain a decent front line capability. Now, we'll probably disagree about how much the Reds cost per annum, but let's for the purposes of argument say they have a direct cost of 2 million quid a year. They also have an indirect cost of the manpower involved and the skills drain they take from the front line. However, I don't believe that the costs really make an awful lot of difference to my viewpoint.

With the sad fact that the MOD is under siege from the treasury, looking to attribute all costs to CPF to retain some level of budgetary control. Conversely, the treasury is trying to squeeze the life out of the MOD and claw back every penny it possibly can to waste on the NHS and the payment of rent for 6-child-singlemothers.

Now, in the world of politics, it may be that the Reds are held up by treasury as something that doesn't deliver any warfighting capability. Well, we would argue, what about the recruitment potential and the public goodwill? Not tangible, no stats and therefore irrelevant, I suspect would be the Treasury answer.

Consider though, that the MOD maybe able to justify the loss of the RAFAT by juggling the competing programmes and prioritising which ones it needs most. It could be that the Reds maybe 'traded' as a give to obtain/retain a more valuable programme. Given the argument that the MOD and the Chiefs haven't got time to fight every battle, nevermind win them all this doesn't seem to be so far fetched. In this (granted limited) scenario, the real cost of the Reds becomes irrelevant as they could be traded at whatever price we wanted. It doesn't matter that the cost of the Reds would never be recouped by the MOD. It matters that the quid-pro-qou maybe a much more relevant (lifesaving even?) measure.

Sadly, in the current climate we're faced with the grim realities of cost. Value is nothing, but we must work out what we value most and fight to keep it. If we were not fighting two wars and deployed in other theatres of 'operation' I might argue differently as to the value of the RAFAT. However, if this was my league, they'd soon be relegated!

I reall don't have a personal gripe with the RAFAT (one bloke aside:E ) but I think their current value is limited. I would need to see a very convincing argument for me to change my mind. The ones already put forward, especially by the likes of TSM, CM and 3.14, don't come close IMHO.

And I stand by my view, doubt though you may, that apart from about 30 seconds at RIAT in 93, I never wanted to be in the Reds. Maybe I had a six sense about my lack of ability:(

Regards

RK

[threepointonefour]

RudeKid: Well, we would argue, what about the recruitment potential and the public goodwill? Not tangible, no stats and therefore irrelevant, I suspect would be the Treasury answer.I understand your points but have to agree to disagree on the one above. This (and every) government rides the public wave. Gone are the days of common sense politics - I agree that when fighting 2 wars and being short of money that it does seem ludicrous (from a treasury pov) to keep funding the Reds - but I don't think this argument will ever hold sway.

Given that GB wants to be the next PM, he will restrict his actions to PR positive stunts ... getting rid of the Reds would probably be v bad for his campaign. TB will not want to be remembered as the PM who ditched them on his way out of the door, which, I'm sure guarantees their existence for the time being.

Let's not forget that you can't stop and start the Reds without a fairly major project ... these skillsets/knowledge fade and once it's gone, it's gone. Much like the argument against Low Flying - it has to be practised.

I suspect that the wars in question will not go on indefinitely (my hat is already on my plate), so my guess is that ditching the Reds would be considered a knee-jerk reaction and thus discounted for now (given the political fallout).

But hey, who knows? I know that they're quite happy to gaff off 1.8million signatories to the anti-road toll petition, so what is to stop them binning the Reds?


Question

Do you see the government getting rid of BBMF on a lack of relevence argument? (not tangible, no stats, not relevant ...?).

For me, the same argument applies. It makes perfect common sense, but goes against the ground swell of public opinion (regardless of cost). If they really want to cut the fat off the armed forces, there are plenty of "irrelevant" outfits, but some of these are a step too far for the general public.

The ONLY question here really is, "how much do our current government care what the public actually think?"

[Winco]

Rudekid,
I think we will have to retain our own opinions and disagree on this. My fundamental point in all of this is that if we get rid of them, the money will NOT go to the troops at the front line. Indeed, it will not go to the troops at all or even go back to the defence budget. It will go to support one of this governments many 'more PC' groups - and we all know what I'm refering to. If we get rid of the Red Arrows, it will be the thin end of a very very big wedge.

What will be next? BBMF perhaps? Lets face it, (and I hate to say it) but most public people would prefer to see the Red Arrows over the BBMF, so why not get rid of them and save some more money for our PC causes? What about the Army's Blue Eagles (not sure about the Navy!)

That is what I am trying to impress upon you Sir. Once it starts, it will not stop. You must have seen it with the civilianisation of the RAF alone? Remember when it was just going to be admin staff as civvies? Then it went to the odd storeman and now look at it. Civvies training pilots, running bays, in charge of MT units. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more civvies working in the RAF than servicemen. It has to stop.

It is like a spreading cancer; it is the constant erosion of 'all things military', replaced by civilians and nice 'PC projects'. Please don't support that cause by suggesting that this government could save more money by getting rid of the Arrows, and the money going to better causes. Unfortunately, your better causes (and mine), are NOT the same as the governments better causes, and the money will, without doubt, go to those projects that you and I (and most reasonable people in this country) detest.

I am of the opinion that it is incumbant on us all to protect our aviation heritage and the pleasures and privilages that we have and enjoy today. There are plenty of people out there who are very anti-military in every sense of the word. Please don't add fuel to their argument by fighting in-house to get rid of the Red Arrows (or BBMF) You can see it now in the papers 'Even the RAF want to get rid of the Arrows!'

I only hope that this government are out of office soon and Cameron restores some common sense back to British Poilitcs, although I have my doubts aboout that also (Oh dear, I'm begining to sound a bit like a politician now!)

The Winco

[Clockwork Mouse]

Very well put, Winco.

[South Bound]

I don't think that there is any argument against keeping all the RAFAT/BBMF/etc organisations in a World where money is no problem and I understand that being apathetic to their loss is likely to make it more likely.

However, do I really care? Does it really make a difference to me? If the Government does not want to directly fund these oases of pride and excellence, then we should not strip funds/personnel from the front line to maintain them. I love watching the things fly, but would much rather the boys in their crappy WIMICs had the ballistic protection they need. It should not be a choice, but realistically it is - we have been put in this position by years of chronic underspending. It is the same funding argument echoed on many threads on pprune - 'what is the priority?'.

The Reds and BBMF, et al, are great and it will be a shame. We should keep them, I want to keep them, but not at the expense of something else on the Defence shopping list. I can see that Rudekid has upset a few of you, but I do think that his comments have been taken the wrong way. The relevance argument is key to everything we do - the 'so what?' questions must define our priorities.

Even if the money saved does not stay within Defence, so what? As a father, taxpayer and voter, in my view there are other priorities for the money (although of course I weep for the waste and allocations within some Government departments).

Just my penny's worth...

[The Swinging Monkey]

South Bound,

The thing is, as the Winco says, the few million £ you save from the Red Arrows or BBMf WILL NOT get spent on body armour, better boots, kit et al. It will, as he says, go to keeping more asylum seekers in better accomodation than we ourselves have, and to provide even better living conditions and more facilities for prisoners etc. I do think he is right.

My late Mother in Law was one invited on a tour of her local jail as part of some WI outing. She came back appalled and disgusted at the conditions she saw the cons' living in; Cable TV, Gym, Internet, vocational training, Sports facilities, good food, heated Cells, the lot - it was all there. Now as I recall, those of us who have lived out in the sand pit for any length of time, would have given a testical for some of those sort of comforts (sorry, can't spell lucxouries!)

Whether you like the Arrows and/or the BBMF, I don't think we should get blinkered into thinking that any savings made there will find there ways down to you and I - it 'aint gonner happen!

Kind regards
TSM

[South Bound]

Suppose I am just a democratic idealist and think we should let our priorities in each area of government determine where we spend our loot. I am equally as frustrated as everyone else with the waste, but something has to give eventually and I don't see GB freeing up cash from other departments to keep the Reds flying. Which is a shame, because they are sooooooo prettyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy....

[Exrigger]

As has been said on this and many other threads saving money in one area will not provide kit and aircraft in another, also what will those pilots do when returned to front line service, as has been widely discussed there are not enough aircraft for the task, or they are to old or no spares, so exactly what are these pilots going to fly. I know that they can at least relieve some of their fellow aircrew.
Slightly of topic but also within Pprune are comments regarding new equipment that the forces asked for and are being delivered, but not in time to help in current areas of war with there are crys of cancel/ged rid use the money for AT/SH FJ etc, and in the same breath people bleat that they are using old/insifficient equipment that is falling apart and why can we not have new equipment, sorry you either want new equipemnt as quick as it can be bought on line/made operational and in numbers to make a difference for some time to come, or you want to try and keep what you have knowing that cancellation of anything new will not improve your current position one jot.

[tacr2man]

I think it is most peoples considered opinion that getting rid of RAFAT, BBMF, et al will not result in more kit for the guys at the pointy end , and a lot of this deficiency is not due lack of funds but logistic ineptitude in the MOD .
Why do we fight wars ? usually to preserve our way of life, and values, or in certain instances because we are told to with a lack of veracity. In the former reasons , surely the enjoyment of having luxurys like RAFAT and BBMF, other wise whats the point.:ugh:

my daughter has made a career choice of RAF due in part to the inspiration of RAFAT and BBMF and the esprit de corp these engender
her exposure to the realities hasnt killed her entusiasm so far:confused:

[threepointonefour]

Common sense? But this is PPRuNe !!!

[gar170]

[QUOTE]
Question

Do you see the government getting rid of BBMF on a lack of relevence argument? (not tangible, no stats, not relevant ...?).

This goverment YES.

[Clockwork Mouse]

I have no time, and make no apologies, for this wretched so called Government, but they will not get rid of BBMF or RAFAT. That is not how things work. However they could save them.

The Treasury gives the RAF an inadequate sack of money for the tasks they are asked to perform. The Treasury then says, exceed your allowance and you are in the poo, so tell us what you consider worth saving and what should be binned to stay within budget.

The RAF then produces a list of costed assumptions for binning. If the CAS is a gambler, he may put into that list high-profile items he believes the Government would not accept being binned because of the attendant negative publicity and so will order their retention. CAS can then argue for additional funding. The danger is, of course, that his bluff may be called and the Treasury will say thank you and take them.

So it will be the RAF who get rid of the RAFAT and/or BBMF. No direct blame will be admitted by the shower in power.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Just as an aside to this, what could we get rid of in the RAF to secure the future of BBMF & RAFAT??
Lets see now;
RAF Regiment - what do they do anyway?
RAF PTI - as above
RAF Police - hmmmm
Travel Cells - what a fu$%£ng waste of maney they are!

Oh well, that should secure the boys at Scampton and Coningsby for quite a few years methinks, and what a boost for morale!!
Kind regards
TSM

[A2QFI]

Scores of officers of 1* rank and above. We must have one per serviceable aircraft I should think.

[jstars2]

Thought that readers might be interested to know that the Reds Petition (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/) now stands as follows:

Deadline to sign up by: 24 July 2007 – Signatures: 44,110

[Pontius Navigator]

Save the Reds? What about air shows? I suspect that this year, only cause it is too late to stop now, may be the last air show round as we know it.

Future shows will be task or mission orientated to demonstrate the EAW - ISTAR at Waddo and this will include cooks, suppliers etc with very little emphasis on fast pointy things - left fast, right fast, up fast, down slow, left slow . . .

That may showcase aircraft but it does not showcase the Royal Air Force. The target audience will change too. No longer will it be targeted at the converted - the air show anorak. It might not even be at the traditional venues! What price the Reds then?

[Pontius Navigator]

TSM, I think you are off beam citing the Regiment as a negative asset. They are doing their traditional job in Afghanistan and doing it very well compared with the previous NATO unit who effectively retreated behind the wire.

[Wader2]

BBC News

Gerald Howarth MP

Quoted CAS as saying no immediate threat to the Red Arrows. 6 Mar 1340

[navibrator]

What about F3s being shot at in Deny Flight - they were the first combat aircraft to arrive in the Gulf in 1990 and they have sat on QRA continually for over 20 years.

That said, you don't have to have been shot at to be of use and be operational.

All forces have a role. I would rather keep the SAR force than the Reds if I had to choose - ideally I would keep both!

[rudekid]

Navibrator

Two weeks three days after the banter switch was thrown, I get a bite!

Sorry old chap-timed out!;)

[dogrobber]

Well I was going to vote yes and sign up,then i read this load of kybosh.It just reminded me of the days when the airforce was a jolly display club for our commisioned brethren...( incidentally i love the way you have just endeared yourself to all those hard working engineers out there) ..as for boosting our trade,the only things i ever saw advertised seriously at air shows was other countries military equipment.Thanks for reminding me as a front line recipient,that the Red Arrows are now an outmoded and expensive irrellevance in todays helter skelter air force.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Oh dear. Another Prune Probationer joins the ranks of the RAF Class Warriors. Death to all pilots, officers and anything that smacks of excellence.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

CM,

If, and I'm not sure that I agree with you, Doggrobber is a supposed class warrior your supposition that Pilots and Officer are things that "smack of excellence" there by suggesting everyone else is merely ordinary does lend some credence to your class warrior theory and some possible insecurity issues on your part :rolleyes:

[highcirrus]

Seldomfitforpurpose

I’ve corrected your Delphic pronouncement for spelling and punctuation, to enhance comprehension, although I’ve ignored the spilt infinitive (all done in the spirit of maintaining excellence).

If, and I'm not sure that I agree with you, dogrobber is a supposed class warrior, your supposition that Pilots and Officer are things that "smack of excellence", thereby suggesting everyone else is merely ordinary, does lend some credence to your class warrior theory and some possible (personal?) insecurity issues on your part.

Even though Clockwork Mouse did allude to class warfare I suspect he actually had meritocracy in his sights when writing “anything that smacks of excellence”. I also suggest that confusion exists in your own mind as to which of the two is applicable here.

Did you really mean it when you suggested that Clockwork Mouse has “insecurity issues” and if so, why?

Incidentally, the Reds Petition (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/) now stands at 51,333

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Thanks for that Sir :D

[GBALU53]

As mensioned in a previous comment it is to late this year.

The Arrows from what I have picked up were due to leave yesterday on there way to Greece the to Cyprus to put the last pieces of the flying programme together.

In two months time we will have the finished article for 2007 the Red Arrows Air Display Team for 2007.

Good luck to them all we await your return to mone shores and see the new package.

[Clockwork Mouse]

They are off today in fact for about two and a half months.

[Taildragger67]

Just received the following email. Looks like Number 10 has listened. One cannot help but wonder if the MoD stuff-ups in recent days might've made them look for any positive news they could pump out! :}

E-petition: response from the Prime Minister

The e-petition asking the Prime Minister to "continue funding for the Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team - The Red Arrows" is on-going. This is a response in advance of the closing date from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.

Thank you for signing the petition on the No.10 website calling for the maintenance of the Red Arrows. It is a sign of the place they hold in the national affections that so many people have joined you in signing it - one of the highest numbers since the e-petition service began. That's why I wanted to reply personally. It's also why I am replying before the petition officially closes, in order to reassure people who are clearly concerned.

I am pleased to be able to give you good news. There are no plans to change the funding for the Red Arrows, let alone to disband them.

It is important, of course, that the MOD looks at the full range of its spending plans as part of its routine financial planning, to ensure that taxpayers' money is spent where our Armed Forces most need it. Obviously it is this review which prompted fears that the Red Arrows might be scrapped.

However, like you, the Government recognises just what an important role the Red Arrows play in our national life. As the world's premier aerobatic team, they have thrilled millions of spectators over many years. I was lucky enough to see their extraordinary skills myself only last year at the Farnborough Air Show.

More importantly, the Red Arrows have maintained public support for the Royal Air Force, encouraged recruitment, acted as ambassadors for Britain in the world and promoted British industry for many years. So I am pleased to assure you that this government fully intends to keep the Red Arrows flying.

Thank you for signing this petition, and I hope you get a chance to see the Red Arrows yourself soon.

Yours sincerely,
Tony Blair

[ProfessionalStudent]

That's it then. They're doomed.

[threepointonefour]

Someone ring Jase quick smart!

They've just had the dreaded Board 'Vote of Confidence' !

[Beeayeate]

This is the interesting bit . . .
There are no plans to change the funding for the Red Arrows,
Reads as if there will be no future investment in them.
.