Prefix to name and associated rank

[Bridge23]

Having graduated from university and started the 8 month application process to the RAF, I worked part-time in an outbound call-centre for charities.

One day I called a client/supporter whose name prefix was Wing Commander rather than simply Mr or Dr......and this made me curious as to whether commissioned ranks changed their prefix (if thats the right term?) on all their details as, for example a doctor would do?

Thus...would e.g. a flight lieutenant be addressed as such by their bank, and would their credit card have 'F/L ......' rather than Mr.....?

[Jambo Jet]

It is often the case that retired servicemen, usually of senior officer status, are entitled and often like to use their acquired rank instead of Mr or Mrs.

In my experience its more of an Army thing than any other service, however I am sure you get the odd one who just cannot let go.

[Wader2]

Bridge, that used to be the case in the 60s, one would use one's rank in correspondence and in reply the letter would be properly addressed thus;

Flight Lieutenant Richard Brown, RAF etc.

But in those more formal days letters were also written to R Brown, esq and to Messrs Brown and Sons, all forms that have withered away.

The change in the military arose because to the IRA problems and advice to tone down one's military appearance. This happened long before we were required not to wear uniform in public; that came after a number of highly visible murders.

This change also extends to Wg Cdr Dick Brown, RAF Rtd. Dick may not like it but it is done in his best interests.

In the broadsheets you will see letters from Dickie Brown, Lt Col Rtd, but this is usually done to lend professional credence to the author.

You Sir, will be Mr Bridge at least until you reach Flight Lieutenant!

Jambo, we crosed. You will see I also cited army and broadsheet together :)

[johnny99]

Bridge23

By and large in law you are free to call yourself whatever you want save for those registered professional titles such as Medical Doctor, Chartered Engineer, Chartered Accountant, Solicitor etc. In the military, some use their rank as a normal title of address as is their privilege. Those who do are small in number and I believe normal service convention applies the privilege to sqn ldr and above (stand to be corrected by anyone with copy of Debrett's). Some people may think it is a bit affected to use your service title but others may argue they have a pride in their Service and achievement. Of course security and privacy consideratins may also influence the decision. It's a colourful world the sadder if we were all the same! Anyway where would we be without an old boy called "The Major" or the "Wing Commander" in every episode of Miss Marple or Poiret.

johnny99

[teeteringhead]

Knew a bloke once who had his rank and his AFC on his cheques.....

[Wader2]

Johnny I was always told that use of military rank by retired officers was flight lieutenant in the RAF, commander in the RN and major in the army.

It caused a bit of a stir when a mere captain styled himself as Captain Mark Philips.

I suspect these ranks arise because lieutenant commanders drop the lieutenant bit and army officers get an honourary majority when they retire. The flight lieutenant, OTOH, does not get the automatic promotion that occurs in the other services.

At least that is what I was told.

As an aside, a collection of lieutenant commanders with a similar rank as boss were all Claude, Clive etc and SIR. A lieutenant colonel as boss is known as Colonel Bob. :)

[airborne_artist]

On retiring from his civvy job aged 60 my father moved back to village where we'd lived until I was 18. He styled himself Mr Artist on his cheques etc, but most of the village (large ex-Service contingent) insisted on calling him Captain Artist, RN Rtd. Those who clearly had a copy of the London Gazette or the Navy List would put in his CBE as well, which he was even more reticent about.

Not forgetting that post WW2 lots of people left the military with quite junior substantive ranks who had held much higher acting ranks. My FiL was an acting Major shortly after he made substantive Lt.

[Flame Out]

Some do get carried away, I have known a Merchant Marine Captain, not only retain the rank but insist that all and sundry, including their offspring address him as Captain.:ugh:

[Gael Warning]

Flame - So whats wrong with the guy treating his kids like any other junior rank???:p

Blighters!:rolleyes:

[Doctor Cruces]

Understood it to be Honorary Title for Senior Officers only, ie Sqn Ldr, Major, Lt Cdr and above.
Unless of course you are a wet ex Army Captain once married to a royal!!
Doc C:) :)

[midsomerjambo]

My father-in-law retired from the RAF as a Sqn. Ldr. around about 1985 (he was OC Appretices at Cosford when I was a brat there, so there was a time when I had to call him Sir :uhoh:). He used his rank in correspondence, cheque book etc. all the time when he first retired, but after a time he stopped it. I asked him why and he said on reflection he felt it was a bit affected.

Jambo Jet - is it just co-incidence or is there another supporter of Edinburgh's finest in the south west?

[Pontius Navigator]

FlameOut, you raise an interesting point.

Navy Captains have always been styled Captain. Remember Captn Baines in the Onidin Line?

Our local harbour master is Captain. The Trinity House inspector was Commander and lately Captain.

To get a merchant command is as a result of passing rigorous commercial exams and then gaining an appointment. It is quite possible to have ones ticket but not get a command.

More interesting though, does Captain Speaking expect to be called Captain when in his local in Houndslow?

[threeputt]

Dr Cruces is correct. Officers of "field" rank in the three services are, on retirement, entitled to use their previous rank. Mark Phillips is an affected dimwhit who isn't entitled to use his.

3P (a retired Field rank officer who doesn't use his..anymore!)

[Talking Radalt]

Anyway where would we be without an old boy called "The Major" or the "Wing Commander" in every episode of Miss Marple or Poiret

In an episode of Morse probably where he'd no doubt take great delight in calling a self-confessed Wing Commander (Retd) a plain and simple "Mr" in reply :ok:

[charliegolf]

Interesting thread:

Teeteringhead, not AFC H****r AFC?

Wader, what's an honourable majority when at home?

CG

[Phil_R]

This is a subject of keen interest to me as I've met, in the last few weeks, more RAF officers than I've ever met previously. I've never been quite sure how to address them - "Hello, Wing Commander Bloggs" is presumably correct but does sound a bit Miss Marple coming out of my puny civilian mouth.

Phil

[Ray Darbouy]

"FlameOut, you raise an interesting point.
Navy Captains have always been styled Captain. Remember Captn Baines in the Onidin Line?
Our local harbour master is Captain. The Trinity House inspector was Commander and lately Captain.
To get a merchant command is as a result of passing rigorous commercial exams and then gaining an appointment. It is quite possible to have ones ticket but not get a command.
More interesting though, does Captain Speaking expect to be called Captain when in his local in Houndslow?"


The Cap'n should, of course, say what sort he is: eg:

Captain Blowhard, RN, if of the Andrew;
or
Captain Birdseye, Master Mariner, if Merchant.

A normal Merchant chap, in an actual on the water sailing job, hauling cargo, "in the trade," the kind of chap you might meet in your local, is more likely to have Fred Bloggs, Master Mariner, on his business card.

[Flame Out]

As you were, didn't explain myself completely. The Merchant Marine Captain in question was retired, some twenty years and still insisting that he should be addressed as Captain, wouldn't reply to you as less you did so. We didn't speak much, as you can guess.:ok:

Sorry for the confusion:\ its the pills:eek:

[FirstFiveEighth]

There was an interesting, and very lively, discussion on this subject in this forum some time last year, I think--"Using ex-Service Ranks" or similar.

Concensus seemed to be that, if the ex-officer was indeed retiring from all employment, fair enough--let him use the title.


If OTOH he was seeking civilian employment, he had better forget it as it cuts no ice whatsoever.

[Ray Darbouy]

"As you were, didn't explain myself completely. The Merchant Marine Captain in question was retired, some twenty years and still insisting that he should be addressed as Captain, wouldn't reply to you as less you did so. We didn't speak much, as you can guess.

Sorry for the confusion its the pills"



Ah! Birdseye probably wore a commodres uniform on board! If in cargo he would have been a total Wally! Prat! :ugh: :yuk:
Only those driving pax boats are usually required, by company image droids, to wear rigs of some sort:rolleyes:

Masters of vessels that are, "in the trade," have been known to wear baggy trousers and a sweaty shirt of some sort. Some have worn bandanas and some flat bunnets! They tend not to act as you describe. All act like normal humans, 'specially if threatened with, "what's yours?" :ok:

By the way, keep taking the Pils! :p

[phil gollin]

Going back to the original question, I try to make a habit of NOT calling MDs "Doctor" as almost nonel of them are proper academic doctors (PhDs).

In addition, they (or at least the ones who are senior in hospitals) have the rather silly affectation of losing their work title and wanting to be called "MR" if they become a consultant.

[Kitbag]

In addition, they (or at least the ones who are senior in hospitals) have the rather silly affectation of losing their work title and wanting to be called "MR" if they become a consultant.

I believe that applies in the main to surgical specialisations and has come about from their work on RN warships when large canvas sails were the fashion. Not really an affectation at all, merely a means of distinguishing themselves- no different to a military rank system in terms of seniority.

[Pontius Navigator]

"Hello, Wing Commander Bloggs" is presumably correct but does sound a bit Miss Marple

Agree, makes me cringe when introduced that way but that is what the old dears love.

There is, or used to be, a whole lesson on that subject.

'Dear Wing Commander Bloggs' pretentious from a subordinate, acceptable from a superior as is 'Dear Wing Commander' unless the wg cdr is known in which case 'Dear Bob' but the subordinate should stick with 'Dear Sir.'

Civil servants writing 'Dear Flight Lieutenant Biggles' are probably senior and also often extracting the urine.

When writing to Air Marshals and vices, it is usual to use Air Marshal and similarly for Generals, Admirals, Colonels and Commanders. As for a 4* airman I am not sure. (The lesson was a very long time ago and I used 'Brian' and 'Bill' and 'Sir' for Michael <vbg> when I bump into them - yes, that Bill)

[teeteringhead]

cg Teeteringhead, not AFC H****r AFC? .. not the one I had in mind, but I never saw the White Tornado's chequebook!

phil gollin & Kitbag

.. generally accepted reason for surgeons being "Mr" rather than "Dr" is that for many years (centuries even) surgeons were very much second class citizens to physicians. Surgeons were often primarily barbers or phlebotomists (bloodletters) - hence incidentally the "barbers' pole", a representation of a bloodily bandaged arm!

Personally I prefer to keep "Dr" as an honorific for medical men .... "Dr" John Reid the Glaswegian thug with a PhD in underwater basket weaving grips my :mad: !

[NRU74]

phil gollin
All MDs are Doctors - because they have Doctorates - although these are not ever so common in the UK
Medical Practitioners in the UK usually have either MB BS or MB ChB degrees - Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery and use the honorary title of Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr

[doubledolphins]

Point is the security people tell us not to use our military rank out side "Work" these days.
So I don't.

[Wader2]

This website gives the offical listings of address:
http://www.dca.gov.uk/dept/titles.htm
and Note RAF follows Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Army.
Royal Air Force officers
Ranks should be written in full.
All officers below the rank of Air Chief Marshal should have the suffix "RAF" written after their names and decorations.
When we consider retired ranks the following are extracts to illustrate the point:
Lieutenant Commander - Commander - By custom rank is used
Major - Major - Rank may be used
Wing Commander - Wing Commander - Rank may be used but should not use "RAF" after the name
Squadron Leader - Squadron Leader - As above
Below these ranks they are all plain Mr.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Pontious N

It sayeth in the Bible, JSP101 Ch 2 Para 11;

"Personal Letters. The choice of salutation in a personal letter depends on the relative ranks or grades of the writer and addressee and how well they know each other. If you are writing to an equal or junior that you know well, use the recipient’s forename or ‘nickname’. If you are writing to an equal or junior that you do not know well, use the format ‘Dear Squadron Leader Bloggs’. This format is also recommended when writing to a superior, eg ‘Dear Colonel Franks’ or ‘Dear Mrs Smith’ (and use the generic rank for military officers; eg refer to the rank of air vice-marshal or rear admiral as ‘Air Marshal’ or ‘Admiral’ respectively). The valediction is a matter of personal choice but ‘Yours sincerely’ is safe and recommended".

[midsomerjambo]

TH - bit harsh that mate. Reid's PhD is in history. Agree about the Glaswegian thug bit though :)

[teeteringhead]

Economic history in fact midsomerjambo, to be precise: His thesis was on the 19th-century West African slave trade from a Marxist perspective ... whatever that means.. think I'd have preferred underwater basket-weaving...

...but seriously, I find him a bit more honest than most of our jockistani leaders. Glaswegian thug indeed, but WYSIWYG which is rare in politics.

I quite liked him when he was Min AF when I was in Whitehall ... and I admire someone who has done as well as he from poor beginings (neither "son-of-the-manse" nor Fettes-educated) - who left school at 16 and took his first degree with the OU.

..... but I still think that PhDs shouldn't be called "doctor" outside Academe

[BEagle]

Surely the most ludicrous title ever was:

"His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular."

:hmm:

[DSAT Man]

Somewaht off track, but related to the idea of social etiquette in the Forces...

Some years ago, we found, in the RAF Halton archives, a delightful letter from an AVM at a now defunct HQ at Aston Clinton to the then Commandant of Halton (an Air Cdre). The letter was written soon after WW2 when rationing was still in, and was responding to a suggested menu for a forthcoming dinner. I remember 2 things from the letter:

Firstly, the very clipped salutation 'Dear...(surname)'

Secondly, the incredibly patronising tone which belitted the Air Cdre's choice of food. For instance, the choice of sauternes for the dessert wine was seen to be most inappropriate, and another suggestion was given. Also, the Cmdt was put in his place for daring to suggest cream to go with the dessert. Ice cream was deemed more suitable given the current political climate and the uproar that might have followed for using a scarce foodstuff.:=

Imagine the response these days to such pomposity!

[Blacksheep]

More interesting though, does Captain Speaking expect to be called Captain when in his local in Houndslow?Indeed many of them do. Especially the Nigels.

('Nigel' - A civilian aviation epithet for BA pilots)

[airborne_artist]

People with PhDs may be clever, but they are not always that bright - at a PTA meeting discussing the expansion of the school due to increasing nos. of kids, one mum of three, who liked to be called Dr. Bloggs, stood up and said "What I'd like to know, is where all the children are coming from" - cue much hilarity :}

[midsomerjambo]

Ah well TH, I have to be a wee bit careful here being a Jockistani myself (albeit from the capital city on the east coast). Incidentally, Mrs. MSJ has a PhD (in medical physics) but she tells me the only reason she did it was so she could push her way to the front of the bar, saying "Let me through, I'm a Doctor".

[teeteringhead]

msj

If it gets Mrs (Dr) msj (and your goodself) a drink a bit quicker, I'm prepared to make an exception in her case! :ok:

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Blacksheep: In fact they don't so much nowadays, and the few that still insist upon it are liable to have 'The Michael' extracted!

However, I did take a rather dim view of the young chap from Dispatch who arrived on the flight deck on one of my last flights and addressed me as 'Cock' ... :ooh:

MR GALHI (Just don't call me 'Cock') Captain, Merchant Air Services (Retd.)

[Samuel]

This thread topic has been raised before, and the replies are therefore in similar vein.

I've always thought it was largely a Brit thing really. I can't recall a single instance of anyone down here doing it, and I know at least two former CDS who are in my local phone book by their usual initials and name, and one of them is a former CAS, CDS, and a Knight of the Realm, [before we dumped such titles].

[phil gollin]

Quote :-

phil gollin
All MDs are Doctors - because they have Doctorates - although these are not ever so common in the UK
Medical Practitioners in the UK usually have either MB BS or MB ChB degrees - Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery and use the honorary title of Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr

unquote

Most UK medical doctors are "professionally" doctors - and hence use the title as a professional name, e.g. like saying someone is "plumber" smith or "electrician" Jones.

Relatively few have proper academic doctorates.

Another group which is peculiar are the police, where each and every policeman has a warrant, but their "job titles" are merely job titles.

It is all about trying to impress someone else - especially with the police who wouldn't want a member of the public to address them on frst name terms - just try matching name useage "one-to-one" with a policeman - always fun, it gets you back to the "Mr" stage really quickly.

[Pontius Navigator]

Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr

Mrs PN corrected me when I mentioned that Dentists could be called Dr.
Mere Batchelor of Dentistry may be, but as many are Dental Surgeons, like other surgeons they are a cut above mere doctors and are therefore Mr.

[Pontius Navigator]

..... but I still think that PhDs shouldn't be called "doctor" outside Academe

Interesting point. Certainly that formidable Miss Marple type proping up the corner of the country bar would not expect to be addressed as Matron - whether head of a hospital or other type.

If she is not Matron, and the Gladys Emanuelle is not District Nurse when off duty why should there be an exception for doctors?

That doctors are always doctors and always on duty will not wash now that they can opt our of night duty and out-of hours.

Then there is the 'Judge' etc, but see the post by Wader.

There are recognised names so why should there be any 'side' about using them?

[Flame Out]

Maybe, the answer is to have your name and rank the same:cool: Bit like Major Major.. Major Major in catch 22:p Although nobody on the squadron wanted to be with him and the only way you could see him officially was when he had left his tent.

A bit like real life then...:bored:

[Pontius Navigator]

FlameOut, now there is a thread all of its own. I knew two Flight Lieutenant Major, a Wing Commander Marshall and of course Sergeant Sargants are 10 a penny but the one I liked best was SAC Officer.

I suppose you could even have Lance-Sergeant Lance Sargant :)

[airborne_artist]

PN - Lance Corporal Major would have the Household Cavalry in a spin - their WO1/RSM is a Corporal Major.

[judge11]

I would suggest that the vast majority who find the use of a title or rank 'affected', a rank/title that has, no doubt, been hard-earned and deserved, are those who have leanings towards egalitarianism and reduction of deference in society in general, many of whom are to be found amongst current serving personnel.

The public still have some respect for members of the Armed Forces and 'professions' in general, despite what some factions of the media with political agendas would like to portray.

Rank or title is something one should be (rightfully) proud of. Use it judiciously as and when circumstances demand.

[Clockwork Mouse]

J11
Very well put. Thank goodness for a balanced, sensible and mature opinion amongst so much puerile drivel!

[Pontius Navigator]

The other question is first names.
One boss said we should call the groundcrew by their rank and surnames not first names.
Another boss, same sqn, said "I'm John, call me John." "Yes Sir."
A shop assistant "Have a nice day Pontius"
Or my call centre :) "Hello Mr Pontius"
So rank or no rank, do we prefer Mr and Mrs or George and Midred?

[Clockwork Mouse]

Use of first names implies familiarity and informality. That is not generally acceptable in the necessarily heirarchical and tightly disciplined military environment. Those in a position of authority and responsibility, whether they are non commissioned or commisioned, are selected and trained to command and lead in circumstances that can often be very stressful and even life critical. They are not there to take part in a democratic discussion. So their authority must be officially protected, albeit with safeguards in case they go pear-shaped. That heirarchical relationship is strengthened if mutual respect can be established, but must still function in its absence.

For junior ranks to be pals with and to call senior ranks by their first names is not acceptable. If any one individual in a team is allowed to get away with it, it must apply to all, and that will eventually lead to a breakdown of respect, discipline, clarity and consequently military efficiency. Likewise if a junior rank has to address me formally, I owe him (or her) the respect of reciprocating and not patronising them by using their first name. Respect and trust are the necessary elements of inter-rank working relationships within the military, not friendship. We are not in the military for social reasons, nor for the pension. Both are welcome bonuses if we survive. We are there to deliver state violence effectively on behalf of our nation and its citizens, some of whom pay for us.

As far as civvy street is concerned, I will not accept being called by my first name by some prat on the phone who doesn't know me from Adam and who couldn't care less. I invite someone to use my first name. It is mine to give or withold, not for them to take.

I would never call Blair "Tony" and I'd be damned before I allowed him to call me "****".

I expect a salvo of flak from the usual suspects, uniformed and not uniformed. I hope some of it will be mature and balanced, but having seen the garbage and vitriol spouted in these forums I am not too hopeful. Oh well, I've already earned my pension so fire away!

[teeteringhead]

Talk of the Bliars reminds me of a tale (of good provenance) of when Mrs Bliar/Ms Booth/Wicked Witch of the West met HRH The Princess Royal ....

HRH: ...... blah blah Mrs Bliar.
WWW: ....... please call me Cherie.
HRH: I don't think so Mrs Bliar!!

Top Lady!!:ok:

[Exrigger]

Clockwork Mouse:

While I agree with most of your post, could I just say that respect is earned and not a right of rank or position.

[SKYCOOK]

Exrigger is correct respect is earned and not the automatic privilege of rank or title, though the system should not allow people to be promoted to a rank unless they deserve it.

As regards retaining military rank in retirement it is often the only means a person has of alerting people that they once served their country. Many veterans do not qualify for a pension because their time in service was to short. I am tired of the way this country treats service personnel and a person should be able to carry their rank into retirement with pride.

:O
On a lighter note.

Were would Hercule Poirot be without a former British Army Captain Arthur Hastings OBE?

[Pontius Navigator]

Skycook, As regards retaining military rank in retirement it is often the only means a person has of alerting people that they once served their country This may be technically correct but it applies to a very small portion of the ex-military population.

It may be valid when writing to the Daily Telegraph, suggesting that the Royal Air Force is redundant, as Air Chief Marshal will carry rather greater authority than Sqn Ldr or even Flt Lt.

What you appear to overlook is all the others who are not so entitled. There is however a perfectly valid way of alerting people that they once served their country and that is by wearing either an association badge or the veterans' lapel pin.

The latter is available to any serviceman, woman, or merchant marine who was STUFT, and either served before 1969 or has just retired. The 1969 date will be moved once the demand from the 1959-1969 cohort slackens.

[Exrigger]

PN agree, I wear my veterans' lapel pin with pride, the only problem is the word Veteren, some people say I am too young to be a veteren.

I remember an ex Flt LT in the 70s/early 80s who worked at the Bisley ranges, he used to walk around in uniform and used to get well upset if you did not salute him. When it was pointed out that he was not entitled to wear the uniform or use his rank as a civilian and therefore he had no right to be saluted he went nuts. He was reported and was told to remove the uniform and he was only seen in civvies from that time onwards

[Pontius Navigator]

Exrigger, that was probably Bob H*sstl* he was a crack shot and one of only a couple of flt lt at Lindholme in the 60s with a permanent commission. He was ex-Cranwell. He spent increasing amounts of time shooting rather than navigating and was given an ultimatum. He decided to put sport first.

In the 70s/80s he was the Olympic shooting coach.

[Exrigger]

PN, I don't think the guy I am on about is that one, this guy only appeared to do the admin/secretary for the competiton stats and arranged the annual competition, I do not recall this guy having anything to do with shooting, and certainly not at that sort of standard. But I could be wrong as it was a long time ago.

[Samuel]

Sheesh.... this is a bit of a minefield isn't it!

The original issue was not about respect, earned or not, or calling the Boss by his first name, but the practice of carrying rank over to civilian life. My view, stated early on, was that it's largely a British thing, and rarely happens In NZ/Australia, because holders of rank tend not to place the same emphasis on it once you've gone.

My experience, and I left of my own volition as a Sqn Ldr with a PC who was no longer getting the laughs he used to, is that the very best people the Service produces also leave at the Sqn Ldr/ Wg Cmdr level because the bull**** factor becomes too much for their clear and concise minds!

The pyramid at that point does produce some very good people, but on the other hand there are those for whom the 'Peter Principle' was specifically
written , and they do, indeed, rise to their own level of incompetence, It is the latter group who are more likely to carry rank over to their civilian life, because it [their rank] still blows their hair back long after it ceases to be relevent.

Myself? I wouldn't dream of using Sqn Ldr Rtd in any way unless it was relevent to the subject. It is, however, very relevent to me.

[Pontius Navigator]

Samuel you mention that it is a British thing and not something one finds in NZ or Oz. Certainly my uncle (Oz), when he met us as we staged through Oz, thought we might have been wearing jodphurs and carrying swagger sticks with a couple of erks to look after the jet. He was surprised to see all the officers running around getting mucky and sweaty.

OTOH, when I was in India a few years ago I met several Indians who all retained their rank. One in particular was a doctor whose door name plate carried all his qualifications and included the possibly irrelevant information that he was Wg Cdr IAF Rtd.

We also know many other countries where military rank is used in public office - from Field Marshal (Uganda), to General (Chille), to Colonel (Egypt and Libya) to Flt Lt (Nigeria). Lets hear it for the Flt Lts :}

[Samuel]

Pontius, as I mentioned earlier, I have living not too far away from me, same suburb in fact, one AM Sir Richard Bolt who was not only CAS in the 1970s, but CDS [in NZ]. He was, among other things, a former Lancaster and Pathfinder pilot, but is on the phone book as Richard Bolt.

I also regularly bump into another former CDS, a Rear Admiral, and also a Sir, who is in the phone book with his name only.

There are at least two former CAS types that I'm aware of around here [we're rather a leafy suburb!] but all of whom avoid titles.

Perhaps it's a Kiwi thing, the old No 8 wire approach of "she'll be right mate".

[Pontius Navigator]

Sam, yes, I remember. I was being a bit tongue in cheek if you consider most of the people I refered to had gained power through insurrection.

Certainly when Gerry Rawlins grabbed power we all said 'let's hear it for the flight lieutenants' :)

[Mmmmnice]

CG- is the White Tornado still with us? Saw a delightful picture of OC Hunter - Aberdeen UAS 1959. He looked faintly scary even then!

[charliegolf]

Nicey

No idea, I'm afraid. Been out for ages. It was his AFC front and back monicker that I recalled from deep in the archive.... about 82 ish!

CG

[J.A.F.O.]

having seen the garbage and vitriol spouted in these forums I am not too hopeful

so much puerile drivel

Why the hell are you wasting your retirement reading it, then?

Did you see the title and hope that it would vindicate your use of your former rank?

[samuraimatt]

Sorry you are going to have to stop this thread as it has naff all to do with military Aviation. Don't blame me I am only passing on the thoughts of the MODS.:uhoh:

[14greens]

might be talking utter tosh
BUT if i remember correctly once you have reached the heady heights of SGT! you are entitled to use your rank with the retired add on when you leave the mob! spookily enough you do not actually see many people signing letters as Sgt Rtd or WO Rtd, its generally the officers who feel a need to cling on, probably the same type who have wives who use there husbands rank instead of realising nobody gives a damn

[threeputt]

I refer you to previous posts, viz you have to reach "Field Rank" to retain any previous service aprobation. Also another post with nothing to do with military avaiation.

Sort yourselves out chaps. :ugh:

3P

[Croqueteer]

:rolleyes: After 15 years in the Air Force, I came to the conclusion that rank was for the incompetent to hide behind.

[Samuel]

I couldn't disagree more:=

Whatever you thought of rank, it wasn't a means to an end in my view, and the vast majority of people used it as intended, if not always wisely and effectively. There are, and will always be contradictions to that, but I never met anyone in 25 years service who set out to achieve higher rank in order to gain less responsibility.Yes, I know, we've all met those who sought to tick all the right boxes, but everyone knew who they were.

From a personal viewpoint, if I'd ever had to use rank to resolve an issue with those for whom I was responsible, I would have considered it a failing on my part.

I would, however, have got over it!