Save the Red Arrows Petition

[Cricket23]

Hi all,

It would seem that Labour are looking at stopping funding to the Red Arrows.

If you would like to see them still fly, can you please follow the link to the petition on the 10 Downing St website. Thanks.


http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/

[J.A.F.O.]

The only good thing Labour have ever done, get rid of the t@ssers.

[A and C]

I don't think that it is the red,s that are the T@sser as you so politely put it!

[J.A.F.O.]

As you wish, A & C, as you wish. We are all entitled to our opinion and mine is outlined above. I am not disputing their aeronautical skill which is at a level I could never hope to acheive it is just that, having met lots of them over the years, they lose no time in telling you all about it. When they leave the team they have any humility they previously had restored to them it's just that while they're wearing those slightly too tight red suits they are, in my opinion, mainly t@ssers.

[Mariner9]

If I was a member of an elite aerobatic team I'm sure I'd tell just about anyone who'd listen all about it :rolleyes:

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

JAFO has got a point... There are always two sides to any discussion..

If the Labout to$$ers do want to get rid of the team and spend the funds on a huggy fluffy ethnic diversity project or something equally politically correct, replace the Red Egos with a Tucano 4 ship. At least you'd hear them coming.......:E

[wbryce]

Signed, they have my support. We should be getting behind our team...after all they are the pinnacle of UK aviation!!

Tossers or not they still do a wonderful job, I honestly couldn't care about meeting the pilots or who they are - not interested, its the flying that I goto see...guess alot of yous who wanted their autographs got a little bit more than you bargained for! :}

[360BakTrak]

get rid of the t@ssers

Terrible thing envy!:} ;) :ouch:

[BRL]

I honestly couldn't care about meeting the pilots or who they are - not interested

I wonder if anybody else thinks like that. I would love to meet one of the reds, I have a million questions that I could ask, I could easily chat away for a few hours with one no problem.


Anyhow, I can't believe the government will allow this.

[dublinpilot]

Perhaps they individuals are a little full of themselves....I've never met any of them so don't know......but I do think having them is an asset to GA.


Anything that shows aviation in a positive light to the general public, anything that gets the general public's interest and gets them to turn up to an airfield, anything that gets them to look skyward and smile (and dream) has got to be beneficial to GA's cause, even if it isn't always directly related.

I read somewhere (don't know if it's true or not) that airshows is the UK's second biggest spectator sport. If that is true then GA must have a good groundswell of support, even if it's a silent support. It's not my tax money that gets spent on the Red Arrows, but if it was, I'd prefer to keep them, no matter that the individuals were like.

dp

[gasax]

I've only met one of them and that a while ago, however asset to GA? No! he wasn't! He thought the skies should be reserved for him and his ilk and GA was a bloody nuisance that got in the way and was dangerous to real aviators. His thoughts on budget airlines are unrepeatable (there would be too many asterisks). I paraphrase him 'cos it was a while ago.

So I'm largely in the to**ers camp.

[dublinpilot]

Gasax,

I don't mean that they are an asset as an individual, but rather that having their displays is.

Imagine Andrew and Aisling who have no connection with aviation. They get a flyer/see an advert for an air show at an airfield close by with the Red Arrows displaying. So they turn up, see the airfield, lots of people, a buzzing place, have a nice day out among all the little airplanes, and leave that evening thinking how great it would be to be able to fly.

They never meet the Red Arrows as individuals....they know nothing of them. But surely they are left with a predisposition towards that airfield? Perhaps when some developer thinks of building houses on it, Andrew and Aisling will realise they will miss their annual air show and object? Perhaps Aisling will buy Andrew a trial lesson for his birthday, because he seems to enjoy the show so much....perhaps Andrew will go on to complete his PPL and become an active member of the GA community?

If the Red Arrows weren't there, then Andrew and Aisling would probably have gone to B&Q to get something for the house that Sunday instead. They'd think of GA as nothing more than annoying noise making machines.

That's what I mean about the RA's being an asset for GA. Not that the individuals are great embassidors....but as a display they have got to foster a good impression towards GA in the public's eye.

dp

[J.A.F.O.]

guess alot of yous who wanted their autographs got a little bit more than you bargained for!

Sorry, perhaps I didn't explain myself, I've only ever met them in the aircrew enclosure or at the airshow parties both when I was in the Royal Air Force and afterwards. I'm not an autograph hunter, nor am I envious; I'd never be able to do what they do, never expected to so I'm not envious of them in the same way as I'm not envious of Johnny Wilkinson, I played a bit of rugby but never expected to get chosen to play for England as I've flown a bit but never expected to be in the Red Arrows.

Sorry if you don't like the fact that the ones that I've bumped into while they've been on the team seemed like to$$ers but it's just my impression.

I've met some incredibly talented and dedicated pilots who were also nice blokes so I don't think that it's an excuse, personally.

I think that their flying is quite impressive, that was never in question.

[h73kr]

Soooooo, would I be right in thinking there was a banner headline in the Daily Mail recently, something along the lines of.....

'BLAIR PLANS TO DITCH RED ARROWS!'

with an 'article' below, maybe, one paragraph, along the lines of......

'one of our journalists brothers mates, you know the one, used to hang around with Smiffy a lot down the Red Lion, well, his sisters husband reckons that he may have heard down the Dog and Duck a while back that her mates brother might have reckoned that perhaps Labout were maybe thinking that one day it might save a bit of money by getting rid of the Red Arrows, maybe, perhaps.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, it's just that they do it on a daily basis, that's all. :D :rolleyes:

[FullyFlapped]

I think that their flying is quite impressive, that was never in question.
So the only question, JAFO, is whether you think we should all be deprived of the displays because some of the guys who fly them have questionable personalities ?

FF :ok:

[wbryce]

BRL, my statement was used without too much thought, just trying to put a bit of emphasis that your supporting the team and not the pilots...As an aviator I probably would be interested..so yes, my statement was probably a little bit too strong than I intended.

My point was really who cares whether the pilots are tossers or not....

Jafo, I see your point! but not all of them will be tossers...truth be told if we were red arrows pilots we would probably think we could walk on water too! :E

[J.A.F.O.]

Didn't mean to get dragged into anything, it was just meant as a bit of light hearted banter such as:

My point was really who cares whether the pilots are tossers or not.... They are.

I could easily chat away for a few hours with one no problem I honestly doubt you'd get a word in.

How do you know if there's a Red Arrows pilot in the bar?
Don't worry, he'll tell you.

Perhaps I should have used a ;)

I really didn't know that the feeling was so strong about the Red Arrows and wouldn't wish for anyone to be deprived of something that is apparently enjoyed so much by so many. I should point out that a few of the Reds that I've met and nearly all ex-Reds that I've known have been sterling fellows with a fine line in self-deprecating humour and an all encompassing humility which belies their outstanding talents and achievements; it's just while they were in the team they were to$$ers.

;)

[niknak]

All the pilots so far recruited to the Virgin SpaceFlight project are ex Red Arrows Pilots, if they are all Tossers, at least they'd be doing it where us mere mortals couldn't see them at it.....:=

[Friio4]

'BLAIR PLANS TO DITCH RED ARROWS!
Shouldn't it be the other way round?:ugh:

[stickandrudderman]

The current leader of the RA is a freind's brother, so I've met hime at a few parties. He came across as a very polite and CONFIDENT individual, and his conversation was not entirely limited to RAF-speak, although as a newly qualified PPL I was certainly pleased to meet him in such an informal environment.
My point is that these guys are inevitably going to be a little arrogant, in the same way that rock stars are, because everyone puts them on a pedastal, and I suspect that all of us would be the same given the chance!
As for banning the show, it's symbolic of ths governments persistant attempts to undermine everything in this country that might represent something to which an individual might aspire.
"when I grow up I want to be a Red Arrows Pilot"
"Sorry son, they've been scrapped"
"OK, when I grow up I want to be an airline pilot."
"Sorry son, we've paid so much in council tax that we can't afford to sponsor you."
"Alrigt then, I'll get an airline to sponsor me!"
"Ever since the introduction of aviation taxes, all the airlines have based themselves abroad, and that includes their recruitment policies"
"Well, if I can't fly, I gues I'd like to be the captain of a big cruise liner"
"All foreign now son!"
"OK, I'll be a racing driver"
"Only if you like driving electric cars son!"
"A huntsman?"
"Forget it, son"
"A marksman?"
"Nope"
"Well, Dad, what can I be when I grow up?"
"A number, son, just a number"

[Fuji Abound]

"Well, Dad, what can I be when I grow up?"
"A number, son, just a number"

Come on, you could be a civil servant or a politician.

[Alvin Steele]

Scrap the Red Arrows?...........reason number 346 for voting New Labour out at the next general election:ok:

[maxdrypower]

whilst in the royal air force I watched in startled disbelief as an f3 pilot began taxying with a ground crewman still in the nose undercarriage bay , totally disregarding the marshallers and wingmans signal to stop , the liney managed to get out before falling over and getting motored by the nosewheel. The pilot continued to taxy from a HAS without any guidance from groundcrew and went about his mssion . on landing he commented that if griound crew cant be arsed to get out the way then why should he be arsed to stop. many many crm and flight safety issues on the go there , the point is that this asshole is now a red ego . This was one of many incidents involving this pratt who thinks the sun shines out of his own arse . A bigger wanxxr you could never hope to meet . however does any of this matter when you are watching the reds on a clear summers day flying the most perfectly choreographed rouitnes on this planet and showing the world the british are still number one in the jet display stakes . I dont think it does . so long as he can put on a show like that as far as Im concerned he can be as much of a blithering foxtrotwit as he likes when he's on the ground I wouldnt choose to talk to him but I would definately choose to watch him fly.
This govt has managed to fxxk up just about everything else so why not get rid of the reds , their stupid enough to do it and if they did it would be a sad sad day

[chevvron]

To echo what maxdrypower said:

Mate of mine was an instructor at an airfield not a million miles from Camberley. In those days, the RA's had re-equipped with Hawks, but were still based at Kemble.
My mate sends up a student for his first solo late one summer sunday(but within notified ATZ hours), he has a handheld so he can monitor his student's RTF calls, and he stood out of doors to watch him fly the circuit. All went well until student turns base leg, when suddenly out of nowhere, just as the student throttles back and starts descending, these nine red painted Hawks appear flying east to west, pass UNDERNEATH the student and straight over the airfield at about 500ft! My instructor friend didn't hear them call on the RTF, nor did the FISO, so you can only assume they infringed the ATZ without clearance. Not surprisingly, the student was somewhat upset about this. My mate phoned me next day and explained what had happened asking me what action he should take, but as soon as I mentioned form-filling, he unfortunately lost interest.

[J.A.F.O.]

Wouldn't be the first time that they'd announced their intention to fly past an airfield and then flown past the wrong one, nor would it be the first time that they'd just done as they pleased without a thought for anyone else.

They are like butterflies really - they look very pretty flying around but get up close and they're just insects.

;) or :ouch: , whichever you prefer.

[eharding]

J.A.F.O

You come across as increasingly bitter and twisted about the Reds.

Let it go mate.

They *do* have a reputation as being social disasters, and my sources are biased being of the Army variety - the Cyprus experiences being some of them (has anybody else heard about the synchro food poisoning a few months back?)

But, I would argue, that is the inevitable result of being part of a team that flies close formation aerobatics. As a nine ship. I've flown formation aerobatics; trust is everything, the team is everything....and everyone else, not part of the team, post sortie, might find themselves slightly excluded from the conversation for a while. I am a rank amateur - but to live that way for two or three years, totally focussed on the team - yes, I can see why the normal social skills might atrophy.

The second hand zone bust or safety related stories, are, frankly, beyond contempt. If you have confidence in these reports as safety issue, then get on with it and deal with them in a professional manner, even after all this time, under your real names....or you can keep bitching under a pseudonym. Your choice.

[Flying Lawyer]

Thanks for the heads up Cricket23. :ok:

Petition signed.

I'm a fan of the Arrows. I have enormous respect for anyone who is or has been in the team, and am happy to forgive them any understandable immodesty.


FL

[maxdrypower]

eharding , why do you assume that it wasnt dealt with professionally at the time , I didnt hide behind a pseudonym and I lodged all the required reports at the time using my real name and rank , which by the way is exactly the oppsoite to what you have just done , are you red you seem to have the necessary personality traits?

[Milt]

Sad to learn of the further decline of the RAF.

The Red Arrows are an important exhibit to those of the supporting populace who know they need a highly efficient and potent Air Force which will help to provide security for their way of life.

The pilots assigned to formation aerobatic teams naturally think with pride that they have reached a pinnacle of handling highly manoeuverable aircraft at close quarters. As an old and humbled former Top Gun and Formation Aerobatic pilot I sympathise with the Red Arrows pilots who, whilst concentrating on their formation skills, are at the same time deteriorating in their primary role/s as fighter pilots or flying instructors.

If your Polies are intent on closing the window on the RAF expertise then it may be time again for Australia's RAAF to come to the aid of the RAF and share it's Roulettes or invite the RAF to enlist some contributions from other friendly Air Forces.

This needs to be done before we Aussies suffer a similar decline as a indirect result of the not-so-slow invasion we are suffering which we seem to have copied from you Brits.

[eharding]

Max,
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/icons/rofl.gif
Hardly, on both counts - given my Pprune username, you don't have to be Poirot to track down my identity....Clouseau, even, could manage it.
;)

[maxdrypower]

so your just a pratt then

[eharding]

:8
I've been called much worse.

But it hardly adds to the quality of the thread, does it?

[BRL]

No it doesn't. Back on track guys and anymore personal posts mean this thread goes.

[J.A.F.O.]

I've more than had my say, as I am sure you will agree. I've certainly said more than intended about something which doesn't actually interest me that much.

Just before I disappear off I'd just like to say that I don't buy the "they're a top formation aerobatic team therefore are allowed to be ar$eholes" - I've spent time socially with the Frecce Tricolori and Patrouille de France, I've met many civvie pilots who have been in teams and are extremely talented and dedicated people and they were all really nice people (even Brian Lecomber when I'd just stolen the last fuel on the airfield on a Sunday and was off for a bimble and he was en-route to a display and had very little).

I'm happy with the "don't care whether they're to$$ers, they look pretty" argument, that's fine and dandy.

So, in summary:

most of the Reds that I've met while they were in the team were, in my opinion, to$$ers; many of them that I've met many years after their involvement were not.

They are extremely talented fliers.

Many extremely talented fliers are not to$$ers.

I haven't enjoyed watching the Reds for a long time.

If you enjoy it and want to go on enjoying it then I don't mind at all.

I didn't expect a little light hearted banter to develop into a long thread.

eharding - any safety related issues were dealt with at the time, I didn't mention any zone busts.

Personally I believe that at the moment there are many more important issues to be debated and many more important and urgent matters for my tax money to be spent on.

Sorry if my thoughts on the Reds have upset anybody or taken the thread away from its intended course.

BRL, you are right, it should be about:

It would seem that Labour are looking at stopping funding to the Red Arrows.
If you would like to see them still fly, can you please follow the link to the petition on the 10 Downing St website. Thanks.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/

Cheers all.

[chevvron]

They're mostly OK when you talk to them face to face, it's when they strap a Hawk to their backsides the trouble begins, and having handled them for 30 odd years I've talked to a lot of them. I was at Akrotiri with cadets one year when they arrived; within 3 days they'd pi$$ed off the entire station with their attitude, but it was great seeing the rivalry between them and the 'resident' target towing squadron.

[TheGorrilla]

Just signed. Won't be voting for labour either (various reasons - wont explain, this isn't a political forum). I actually enjoy watching the reds.

[neilcharlton]

If they do disband i can imagine that RAF recruitment would dip, which is a bad thing as i hear most of the armed forces are down on men .

Just because you've reached the top of your career doesn't mean you can be an arrogant d*ck, unlike a lot of people in aviation.

I deal with millionaires and the odd billionaire on a daily basis. A lot of them are really nice guys , you get the odd t@sser but mostly they are confident, switched on and too the point.

[TheGorrilla]

Blimey! I had no idea how many people round here are so Anti-Red Arrows till I read this. Personally I would rather some people shut up and let their flying do the talking!?:hmm:

All I can detect in this thread which is supposed to justify funding to help keep fellow aviators aloft (at what some would say is the pinnacle) is unjustified bitterness. As a Red pilot reading this (which I'm not!), I'd feel gutted. To have made it through the selection and worked hard to earn a place on the team, briefed and practiced every display till I was literally blue in the face and worked hard to be the most disciplined pilot I could ever hopedto be and then represent my country internationally.... Don't you think I'd deserve a little respect?

Arrogant because they only talk to other team members? Because they are highly focused individuals who spend all their time thinking sequences through with the team, talking them through, breathing the stuff, so they have little time for anything else. It's called pure dedication not arrogance. Appreciate it before that a$$h0£e Blair get rid of the Reds and the like, just like he wants to be rid of the monarchy, we can all worship president Blair then!!! That man is pure poison for this country.

[blueclavius]

"when I grow up I want to be a Red Arrows Pilot"
"Sorry son, they've been scrapped"
"OK, when I grow up I want to be an airline pilot."
"Sorry son, we've paid so much in council tax that we can't afford to sponsor you."
"Alrigt then, I'll get an airline to sponsor me!"
"Ever since the introduction of aviation taxes, all the airlines have based themselves abroad, and that includes their recruitment policies"
"Well, if I can't fly, I gues I'd like to be the captain of a big cruise liner"
"All foreign now son!"
"OK, I'll be a racing driver"
"Only if you like driving electric cars son!"
"A huntsman?"
"Forget it, son"
"A marksman?"
"Nope"
"Well, Dad, what can I be when I grow up?"
"A number, son, just a number"


Welcome to PC Britain.

[His dudeness]

I met them only once, in Malta. We had to turn our CJ around by nearly 180° to start the engines.(heavy winds)
Their aircraft were parked just a few meters away and the pilots hanged around, waited for their turn in the airshow that day. I walked over and asked them if they could give us a hand, which they did, actually 4 chaps came over and helped us. Then, beeing asked for, they gave us autograph cards and a booklet.
IMO - the ones that I met where real gentlemen and good ambassadors for Britain. Thats MY impression of them.

And we stayed until their display was over - stunning, best bits of flying that I saw for long, long time.