help with Moscow TAF decode

[sabenaboy]

I just looked at the Moscow weather (going there tomorrow)
I'm not familiar with the 6 numbers (highlighted in red) in the forecasts.
Coulld anyone tell me the meaning of those numbers?
Thanks,
Sabenaboy

MOSCOW VNUKOVO - UUWW - VKO

FC:
TAF UUWW 051030Z 051221 17006MPS 3000 SN OVC006 SCT015CB 640000
TEMPO 1221 1100 SHSN FZDZ BR BKN004 BKN010CB 670000=

MOSCOW SHEREMETY - UUEE - SVO

FC:
TAF UUEE 051025Z 051221 16006MPS 3000 -SN BR OVC012 SCT020CB
650120
TEMPO 1221 1000 SHSN FZDZ OVC005 SCT010CB=

MOSCOW DOMODEDOV - UUDD – DME

FC:
UUDD 051025Z 051221 15004MPS 3000 SN OVC006 TEMPO 1221
15009MPS 0700 +SHSN FZRA SCT004 OVC006 SCT012CB OVC100
640000=

[eckhard]

Hi Sabena boy, Try this link:

http://www.bragg.army.mil/www-wx/taf_code.htm

The figures refer to icing and turbulence.

Dosvedanya!

Eckhard

[sabenaboy]

Thanks, Eckhard,

More then 10 years on the job (in Europe) and that's the first time I see those in a forecast!

[FMC OVERHEAT]

640000=
Rwy 14R
Deposit: Clear and dry
Depth: Less than 1mm

[FlightDetent]

640000=
Rwy 14R
Deposit: Clear and dry
Depth: Less than 1mm

Nonsense. Albeit UUDD has in fact 14R, runway state message format is

DD/E/C/ee/BB
DD: runway
E: contaminant type
C: covered area
ee: depth
BB: braking action/fricition coefficient.

even more, for C and BB fields "zero" is not a valid value.

This should be icing/turbulence forecast as per the link above.

fd
(the un-real)

[MrBernoulli]

sabenaboy - "More then 10 years on the job (in Europe) and that's the first time I see those in a forecast!"

You're kidding us, right? Basics fella, basics!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FlightDetent]

You're kidding us, right? Basics fella, basics!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Carefully with the semantics. There's nothing wrong with seeing the code in real life after ten years, is there? ;)

[sabenaboy]

sabenaboy - "More then 10 years on the job (in Europe) and that's the first time I see those in a forecast!"
You're kidding us, right? Basics fella, basics!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, indeed, that was the first time I came across an icing report like that.
I'm used to seeing sigmets about icing, but this was new to me.
Perhaps they use it often in Russia, but I had never seen one in Western Europe, nor was it ever in any of my commercial or ATPL courses.

:rolleyes: Anyway, I suppose it's better to ask then to confuse these 6 numbers with a 8-figure snowtam (Which I am very familiar with) :rolleyes:

Regards,
Sabenaboy

[alexban]

Well,how was moskow? did u find iceing,as said in TAF? what about CB?
:}

[FlightDetent]

I suppose it's better to ask then to confuse these 6 numbers with a 8-figure snowtam (Which I am very familiar with)
Careful with the semantics. We are talking about runway state message, introduced to ICAO METAR standard by 98 I think. Compared to SNOWTAM it provides very limited informaton.

What I had forgotten to add to my first post was, that most importantly RSM is no forecast thus appear in METAR unlike icing/turbulence forecast group that to no surprise appear in TAF.

I remember seeing this for the first time and checking my college notes (thank you Prof.Nedelka), we've been given a ICAO official training aid METAR/TAF decode table. I just tried to look it up on the internet, no avail. I know where my paper version is, but can anyone help finding the on-line storage for these? Most useful documents.

FD.
(the un real)
i know, I know, I know.... soooory then.:oh:

[Megaton]

DME SA080930 080930Z 26003MPS 240V310 8000 SKC M17/M20 Q1015
UUDD NOSIG 82010060 -
( S) SA080900 080900Z 24002MPS 8000 SKC M17/M20 Q1015 NOSIG
82010060 -

So whats the 8-figure group starting with 82 then? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[sabenaboy]

So whats the 8-figure group starting with 82 then?

82 means rwy 32R (50 is added)
So: RWY 32R is clear and dry, 10 % or less off the rwy is covered, less then 1 mm contamination, braking action good
(that's the decode. I admit that stating that the rwy is clear and dry and then saying it's less then 1 mm thich on less then 10 % of the rwy doesn't make much sense, but that's how to decode it)

[FlightDetent]

So whats the 8-figure group starting with 82 then? :confused: :confused: :confused:
As advised. Those are two METARS with respective Runway State Message at the end. No Icin/Turb forecasts, no snowtams.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Well, according to my Aerad MOTNE/OPMET decode it means the following:

Rwy 32R
Clear & Dry
Less than 10% of Rwy contaminated
Depth of deposit less than 1 mm
Friction Coefficient 0.60


Hope that helps.:ok:

[sabenaboy]

Be very carefull with this braking coefficient reported in Russia.

A braking coefficicient of 34 in Russia means POOR. In western europe 34 stands for medium braking action!!

[KYT]

Rwy State Group
8 figure
First 2 digits - rwy desig
Third - rwy depsoits
Fourth - extent of contamination (%)
Fifth and sixth - depth of contam
Seventh and eighth - braking action

Turbulence - beginning 5
6 figure
Second - degree of turb
Third to fifth - base of turb in 100s of feet
Sixth - thickness of turb layer in 1000s feet

Icing - beginning 6
Second - degree of icing
Third to fifth - base of icing in 100s of feet
Sixth - thickness of icing layer in 1000s feet


For all the extra codes, get hold of a Royal Air Force Flight Information Handbook (yellow book). I'm sure you must know somebody who knows somebody!!!!

[FlightDetent]

Be very carefull with this braking coefficient reported in Russia.
A braking coefficicient of 34 in Russia means POOR. In western europe 34 stands for medium braking action!!

Very good point. My company charts state meaning for ICAO frictions and CIS frictions separately. However, for some time (3 years) is has been concluded that CIS had stopped using those and report standard ICAO values. Can we find a reference?

[Megaton]

If it helps the runway was okay this morning if a little rough!

[tribo]

TAF decoding
Look up ICAO Annex 3 at this link:
http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Annex%2003%20-%20Meteorological%20Service%20for%20International%20Air%20Na vigation/

[sabenaboy]

Flightdetent: Very good point. My company charts state meaning for ICAO frictions and CIS frictions separately. However, for some time (3 years) is has been concluded that CIS had stopped using those and report standard ICAO values. Can we find a reference?

I got this information from the Lufthansa Lido Charts used in “my” company.
In the “country rules and regulations part” about the CIS I found this:

BRAKING ACTION (EXC KAZAKHSTAN)
Friction Coefficient Braking Conditions
0.42 and above GOOD
0.42 - 0.40 MEDIUM TO GOOD
0.39 - 0.37 MEDIUM
0.36 - 0.35 MEDIUM TO POOR
0.34 - 0.31 POOR
0.30 and below Unreliable

The table above shows the normative friction coefficient (Russian friction coefficient) as reported by authorities compared to the values derived from the ATT2 (equivalent to the SAAB friction tester).

The page with this information was last updated on 18 jan 2007. I got a report of braking action 34 over HF when I was 90 min out of Moscow. Moscow ATC later confirmed the braking action to be poor. So I guess Russia does indeed still use this different friction coefficient.

I was not impressed by the Moscow ATCO’s English language knowledge. I tried to get pilot reports of the braking action and tried to find out if the rwy would be cleared soon. They simply did not understand what I tried to ask! 15 min later they managed to inform me that my destination (DME) was closed and would “open three-five”.
My question if the airport would open at 35 past the hour or 35 mins later was not understood.
Anyway, I was glad I took a lot of extra fuel and arrived over DME with 160 min endurance in the tanks. It turned out I had to make only 1 orbit in the hold before being vectored (with a 90 ° intercept heading :bored: ) to the ILS.

Regards,
Sabenaboy

[FlightDetent]

The page with this information was last updated on 18 jan 2007.

That is great food for thought, I shall investigate further. Thank you.

[hedgehog-in-fog]

Well
The braking efficiency report in Rusland differs from European. So check it with the AIP please. Flying here is embarrasing sometimes. Take some xtra fuel and have conversion tables for FL in meters and it'll be OK.
I heard once the flight controller in DME asked 3 times one guy on final If their landing gear was down. Stange, but he followed the regulations.

[selfin]

ICAO doesn't directly handle METAR/TAF codes. These are delegated to WMO and are thoroughly explained in the Manual on Codes (doc 306) found at the bottom of this page: http://www.wmo.ch/web/www/WMOCodes.html - you want FM-15 for METAR, FM-16 for SPECI and FM-51 for TAF, found in Vol 1 part A and Regional Codes in Vol 2.

[sabenaboy]

Thanks for the useful link, Selfin.

However in this WMO FM 51 about TAF's, I can't find anything about these 6-group icing forecast. Therefore I supposes that is not international but country specific. Apart from Russia, which other countries use it? Anyone?

Thanks,
Sabenaboy

PS: could it be that MrBernouillie was confusing this 6-group with a 8 figure RSM himself in his reply nr 6?

[selfin]

Oddly you'll need to look at FM 53 (ARFOR) for the icing and turbulence forecast groups. I have a feeling these two forecast groups are not strictly required in TAF reports, but you'll want to read all the notes in the respective document to clarify this.

[FlightDetent]

I got the following explanation.

CIS uses its own friction coefficients. However, for data disseminaton such as METAR (RSM) and SNOWTAM information, standard ICAO values would be used.

This is supported by:
Yesterday SVO METAR-RSM showing FC at 27. Also SNOWTAM issued with "H/27/27/27 by SFT". SFT is the important part for me, RSM is just in-line with the SNOWTAM.
On Jepp ATC chapter, national differences show no alternations in meteorological reports.
Later on, ACARS METAR-RSM at 31, ATIS reports dry patches snow BA-3, landed and it felt like medium, marginally medium. ;)
ATIS English does NOT report FC but BA instead (to prevent confusion?)

Obviously ATC spoken FC infrormation is not to be trusted as there is no way of telling which coefficient they are reporting.

FD.

[bflyer]

HI
this is a six-figure group which can be either a TAF ICING GROUP or a TAF TURBULENCE group
in this case it is an icing group
1st digit 6 means it is an icing group
2nd digit is the type of icing...see below
3rd,4th and 5th digits indicate the base of the icing layer in hundreds of feet
6th digit indicate the thickness of the icing layer in thousands of feet AGL
type of icing 2nd digit
o.....no icing
1.....light icing
2.....light icing in clouds
3.....light icing in precipitation
4.....moderate icing
5.....moderate icing in clouds
6.....moderate icing in precipitation
7.....severe icing
8.....severe icing in clouds
9.....severe icing in precipitation