Raffling a Flight for Charity

[mazzy1026]

Hi guys

We are doing a lot in our company at the moment for charity, and someone asked me if I could take someone for an hours flight if we had a raffle (pound a ticket).

Firstly, I understand the rules about not having a commercial license etc, and whatever happens I would be paying no less than half the cost of the flight.

So - can I do this? Typical example - we make 400 quid in sold tickets, I take 50, pay the other 50 and the lucky devil who paid a pound gets an hours flight, with 350 going to charity (I would probably end up paying it all myself and giving the 400 to charity.....)

Cheers
Maz :ok:

[QDMQDMQDM]

There are all kinds of regs about it on the CAA site. I have looked into it. It is a PITA. Most people look at it and end up not bothering.

[sierracharlie]

AIC White 114 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4W114.PDF) contains all you need to know about conducting charity flights.
Good Luck with the fundraising. :)

[mazzy1026]

Thanks for the info there :ok:

What a horrible document that is - it's impossible to get anything conclusive out of that without spending a week looking at it :sad:

Perhaps if I were to rephrase what I am doing:

Gonna have a raffle in work to raise money for charity - whoever gets the winning ticket may be approached by me as a friend, and offered a flight for an hour, with me paying for everything....

I am not a charity!

Maz :ok:

[Whirlybird]

mazzy,

Yes, it's a horrible document. But I'm pretty sure you'll find it's illegal, without jumping through all the hoops mentioned in the document. Unfair? Yes. Stupid? Yes. But probably still illegal....at least I think so.

[dwshimoda]

Mazzy,

I don't claim to be 100% correct, but I looked to do this last year, and was pretty much told that without 200 hours PIC (not total) it's almost impossible.

Sadly this meant I was not able to offer a free flight at a charity fund-raiser in memory of a friend of mine who died in a car crash.

Good luck with trying though!

DW

[cessna l plate]

If you are prepared to take the hit, why not offer an hours trial lesson at your club that you pay for?

Failing that, what are the implications if you take a 4 seater and an instructor along?

[mazzy1026]

Thinking about it, it's not the FLIGHT thats the charity event, it's the RAFFLE - the flight isn't the fund raiser, selling the tickets is - so stop me if I am wasting my time, but as I am offering to take someone flying, does the fact that we had to "pick someone lucky to go" make any difference? The money has already been raised and donated well before the flight?

A load of bolleaux how a fully licensed pilot can't take a passenger just cos we had to choose him/her with a raffle and make a few quid for a good cause :mad:

[robin]

Its the trouble with legalistic approaches.

Take the situation where the raffle takes place as described, but the offer is a day trip to an airfield, to walk around the hangars and a lunch with pilots.

If then, in conversation, a pilot says he is off for a trip, and has a space for a passenger (given the normal discussion about payment, the passenger flies at own risk etc) and the person expresses interest in a flight. That would, under the law, be legal. Not only that, the restrictions on airfield type and pilot qualification would be irrelevant.

The result - possibly another convert and good publicity for GA

On the other hand, the CAA approach discourages all of this and forces us to find ways around it, rather than treating us and our passengers as adults.

When I take passengers flying, as I do often, I don't have to go through the mill of the AIC regs. I would doubt many pilots do either.

I would like to add that it would only take one very low-time pilot smashing up one or more raffle prize winners to make a mockery of what I have just said.

So the law is an ass

[mm_flynn]

The rules are pretty clear. If the raffle and the flight are linked in the punters mind (i.e. by a ticket and you may win a flight) then it falls under the AIC. All of the mumbo jumbo in the AIC basically says you need 200 P1, it has to be VFR, depart and arrive at the same place, not go more than 25 miles away (IIRC). You can get a waiver from some of these if there is a logical reason.

This is about you donating your time and aircraft, that is, not being paid in anyway (including cost sharing). All of the funds raised need to go to the charity.

[EvilKitty]

So basically you are not selling tickets for a pleasure flight in order to raise money for charity (which would definately fall under AIC White 114).

You are however having a raffle in order to raise money for charity. The raffle has a number of prizes, one of which happens to be a pleasure flight.

Is that right? If the flight was the only prize then its AIC White 114. If you are under any other kind of obligation to undertake the flight then it's also AIC White 114 (or a CPL).

Actually I'm not sure if there's a way to cut it where it doesn't either require a CPL or AIC White 114. Maybe Flying Lawyer could shed some light.

[stiknruda]

I don't think the AIC is unclear - or wasn't when I did this a couple of times last summer.

[Twiddle]

You need to raffle your friendship!

Winner gets to be your friend for a week and wins £50.

And taking a friend is completely legal. :E

[halfpenny25]

Hi, while we are on the subject, can anyone give me some info. on 'wing walking' ! I really want to do this ( inspired by the Utterly Butterly troupe, but without the aerobatics !! ) for charity, next year 2008. Gone on various web.sites but not very forthcoming. Thanks

[sierracharlie]

Don't know of anyone else who does wing-walking other than 'Utterly Butterly'.
Incidentally, the team now have a new sponsor, Team Guinot.
Drop them an email and ask. http://www.aerosuperbatics.com

[Whirlybird]

I've been told by an ex-Utterly Butterly wingwalker that it's super-horrendously expensive, though can't remember the exact figure she quoted.

[Pianorak]

Sorry, back to the thread:
I agree that White 114 (AIC 79/2005) is quite clear on the matter. But what about this scenario: Both X and I myself support a certain charity. I approach X and ask him would he be interested in cost-sharing a one-hour flight costing, let’s say, £100. A straightforward deal, no raffle involved. He pays me £50 which I then hand over to the charity. Would that be legal or still be considered a charity flight subject to White 114?

[Legalapproach]

Charity flights Article 159

A flight is a private flight if the only valuable consideration (not arising under 157(3)(c)) is given or promised to a registered charity which is not the operator of the aircraft and the flight is made with the permission of the CAA and in accordance with any conditions specified. Guidelines for these conditions are to be found in AIC 79/2005 (white 114) and include for the pilot; PPL with minimum 200hrs PIC, 25 hours on type, 3hrs PIC and 3 flights as handling pilot in the preceding 30 days. Aircraft requirements are a C of A (not a permit) and the preceding 50 hr check and any subsequent pilot maintenance to be certified by a licensed aircraft engineer. The flight must take place from a licensed or government aerodrome. There are also certain weather minima (2000 cloud base and 8km visibility) together with restrictions on aerobatics and formation flying. The written authority of the CAA must be obtained before the flight and it should be noted that the above requirements are guidelines and the CAA will consider individual proposals on a case-by-case basis.

So that's clear then:(

[Johnm]

I don't see why this is complicated. If someone buys a raffle ticket from a legal lottery in aid of a registered charity and therefore wins a flight, the flight can take place if the pilot and aircraft can meet the check list in the AIC. If you can't meet the checklist you might still be able to get CAA permission if you ask and give a reasonable case and then you can still offer the prize. Clearly you would need to be sure of all this before the prize was offered.

What you can't do is have your cake and eat it by sharing the cost with the punter. You are either doing it free and the "consideration" goes to the charity or you're not doing it at all.

[Whopity]

The question to ask is if no payment was made for the raffle, would the flight take place?

If the flight is connected in any way with the payment no matter where that payment goes then it is effectively public transport. If the money only goes to a registered charity the AIC provides a way for a PPL holder to conduct the flight!

The AIC was written to protect the public following previous accidents involving this sort of activity. The person buying the ticket has a reasonable expectation that any flight they take will be flown by a pilot who is competent in an aircraft that is maintained to a recognised standard.

[mazzy1026]

What you can't do is have your cake and eat it by sharing the cost with the punter. You are either doing it free and the "consideration" goes to the charity or you're not doing it at all.
I agree - as I said I would be more than happy to pay the full £100 myself it it meant a cracking day out for the winner, and some cash for charity.

To be honest, I don't think I will bother - I'll do a sponsored back, sack, and crack wax instead - no stupid regulations, paperwork, permission etc etc just pain :E

(Would probably raise more money too).