Inappropriate relationships and drinking within the UAS [Archive]

Seen-A-Lot

15th Jan 2007, 12:57

muppetofthenorth

15th Jan 2007, 13:04

Can't comment on the relationship aspect, but the drinking one, I feel, is being blown out of proportions somewhat.

Whilst I don't deny that there are some heavy drinkers, it is by no means encouraged and it is always stressed that at no time is anybody obliged to drink, participation is always totally voluntary. The vast majority are sensible in their intake and know of the implications of any stupid behaviour. Of course, there's a minority who will take it too far, there always is.

A cursory glance around any student town around the country would show many, many more young people getting themselves into far worse conditions than would be evident at certain Mess' around the RAF.

Wader2

15th Jan 2007, 13:16

Not a bad troll for a probationer. What started that thought?

muppetofthenorth

15th Jan 2007, 13:19

Bugger, did I feed the troll?
Apologies

Seen-A-Lot

15th Jan 2007, 13:57

Whilst I get what you're saying about there being a lot of drinking wherever there are students, don't you find it just a little worying that this drinking culture is being encouraged (I've seen it with my own eyes on numerous occasions) by various drinking games and actively encouraged by instructors. The relationship bit worries me, when you see Instructors placed in positions of authority, and they think liasons with 18 and 19 year old students are "a bit of fun". It's only going to take one "mistake" for there to be utter outrage.

Training Risky

15th Jan 2007, 14:02

BU66ER!

I thought the thread title was an offer.... maybe a Forces' discount on some nubile, yet naive, 18-19 yr old student (female).

Are there any out there to send my way?

Or should I join a UAS as an instructor to get some?

scroggs

15th Jan 2007, 14:24

As several instructors have married students in the past, and drinking has been part of military culture since Roman times, I doubt you'll get much of a rise here.

muppetofthenorth

15th Jan 2007, 14:24

I agree on the relationship side, it is an abuse of a position of responsibility, but not in the same way as a teacher and pupil, we are all adults here [though we may act otherwise!].
The most I have ever heard of are holding officers 'interracting' with students, and as the last holding officer we had was younger than me, and got involved more as a student than anything else, I dont see that being such a problem.

Again, I don't believe the drinking is a realistic issue. I have been to countless events, and never witnessed anything like the number of incidents that I do when going out in town.

And also, after seeing first hand what goes on in some Officer's Mess' around the country [proper ones now, not our pretend ones] we are rank amatuers.

airborne_artist

15th Jan 2007, 14:26

Seen-A-Lot

15th Jan 2007, 14:36

I think you'll find there are a number of QFI's who've had more than just "a quick grope behind the bike shed" with students...... Including the married ones. "Detachment rules"

Whirlygig

15th Jan 2007, 14:37

Picture the scene .... young 19 year old girl and instructor (not much older probably) in UNIFORM, ... need I go on?

Who's taking advantage of whom!!!

Cheers

Whirls

PS - who spotted the operative word there!!

Seen-A-Lot

15th Jan 2007, 14:41

I don't object to the youngsters, but when it's the over 30's who are taking advantage I think that's a different story.

Whirlygig

15th Jan 2007, 14:55

So, it's just an age thing eh? Not jealous are we?

I can assure you (really!!), that some 19 year old girls find older men very attractive especially if they scrub up well in uniform. Why on earth should age and age gap make it any different?

It's either a matter of principle or it isn't!

Cheers

Whirls

dogdriver

15th Jan 2007, 14:58

as the man said, they are all adults, so i don't see what age has to do with it. my memory is that the female studes were just as keen to pull a 'proper pilot' as the officers were to tuck into a bit of young totty. and agreed it was far more from the holding kevs than full time instructors, who in my experience limited themselves to banter and leching from a distance.

if they are married then that is morally reprehensible but hardly Service-specific.

at the end of the day it is up to the boss of the sqn to make clear what the rules are on his trainset. and it's down to people's mates on the sqn to make sure they don't do anything stupid.

as for drinking, it's value as a bonding mechanism far outweighs any of its disadvantages - non-drinkers were never excluded and always very highly appreciated if they were picking up the pieces/doing the driving.

WhiteOvies

15th Jan 2007, 15:07

Why the morale outrage? All consenting adults under the rules, if people want to play away the nanny state can't stop them!
Drinking is not compulsory, being fit to fly is, but that's a different issue. Has it ever been any different in the UAS/OTC/URNU?

I'm sure there are much more inappropriate relationships going on all over the country, check press for details. :hmm:

the oxygen thief

15th Jan 2007, 15:26

Sounds like the perfect job from where I'm sitting. And a fresh intake every September?! Can't be bad.

Where do I join?!?

BEagle

15th Jan 2007, 15:35

"........than full time instructors, who in my experience limited themselves to banter and leching from a distance."

About sums it up for most of us.

MCPwhore

15th Jan 2007, 15:57

I can't say I see the problem, if I'm honest.

My time instructing at a UAS I found a joy, both the flying and the social aspect.

I maintain the time spent in the cockpit was conducted with the utmost professionalism, but on the ground - being a red-blooded male, I suppose I must confess to hanging out of the back of a few myself...

Its not as if they put up a fight or showed any objection, most were in fact rather welcoming, and after all, they were all at least 16 from what I gathered.

What seems to be the problem? A private can marry a General, so why can't an instructor go through a couple of cadets??

airborne_artist

15th Jan 2007, 16:00

I remember having to host a group of RN CCF cadets visiting Culdrose. They were from Kelly College, which is/was co-ed. The senior cadet was very curvy, very blonde, and oozing hormones. Were we wrong to fancy each other? I was about 18 months older and a Midshipman. I do hope not....

Whirlygig

15th Jan 2007, 16:06

Bet even the the QFIs don't have as much fun as Midshipman **** of 88 course on RN EFTS at Leeming. Despite "relations" between orficers and ORs being verboten in the Cr@bs, the sneaky youngster managed a threes-up in his cabin/room with two WAAF mess stewards after the 87 course leaving bash :}

I was about 18 months older and a Midshipman.

airborne artist, are your posts related? :}

The only issue I can see is the possible scenario where instructor and student have had "relations" and then instructor has to give student a bollocking - instructor might not feel so inclined.

Cheers

Whirls

Seen-A-Lot

15th Jan 2007, 16:08

So just so i'm clear on this. It's ok for an older guy (I'm talking 30-40's)who's been given a position of authority and moral responsibility, to be getting to know rather well, his 18 and 19 year old student. Would it be ok if it was her university lecturer, or perhaps if she was in 6th form and it was her form master?

airborne_artist

15th Jan 2007, 16:12

airborne artist, are your posts related?

No, I wasn't the one enjoying the pleasure of two at once - I think he was about four doors down the block and on the other side of the corridor. And sad to say nothing happened with the curvy cadet, so 100% failure on both counts.

MCPwhore

15th Jan 2007, 16:13

Yep, pretty much, they are engaging in extra-curricular activity, and so was I.

Would have been a dull old tour if we all played by the rules... Can't beat a bit of young blood!

stillin1

15th Jan 2007, 16:28

Seen-A-Lot

grow up and do something official about it, if it is an abuse of power:mad: If it ain't - accept that they are gettin some and you ain't and stop whingin:yuk:

have a spine or crawl back under the stone:ugh:

Seen-A-Lot

15th Jan 2007, 16:32

I've rattled someones cage have I? To be honest I can think of nothing worse. 18..... no thanks. Like dipping my wick in my mates daughter.

Whirlygig

15th Jan 2007, 16:32

Would it be ok if it was her university lecturer, or perhaps if she was in 6th form and it was her form master?
Why ISN'T it OK - apart from the reason I gave for you? An 18/19 year old girl is NOT a child and, when it comes to girls, they are a lot more mature than boys and are capable (in most cases) of making a decision. As long as it is consenting, what is wrong?

When I was at school, the PE teacher had a "relationship" with a fifth year (she was 16) and, as far as I know, they are still married.

MCPWhore says you can't beat a bit of new blood - I say you can't beat a bit of experience!

Sorry, I've just seen your last post wrt rattling cages. You're a first time poster (although maybe not new to Pprune) and have made some "tut-tut isn't it awful" comments with which very few people agree. So, if you feel a particular situation is "out of order", then you should speak to the appropriate people. If you're asking for other people's opinions to the matter, you'll find that most think there's no big deal.

Cheers

Whirls

SASless

15th Jan 2007, 16:38

I am in need of some refresher training dear Whirls.....:E

Whirlygig

15th Jan 2007, 16:42

Sassy dahling,

I'm not sure it works the other way round i.e. older male student and younger, female instructor! :E

Nice try sweet! :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

Cattivo

15th Jan 2007, 16:44

I don't see anyone in the UAS system complaining, so why the **** are you?

LuckyBreak

15th Jan 2007, 17:19

.......it is by no means encouraged and it is always stressed that at no time is anybody obliged to drink, participation is always totally voluntary......

Only if you go to a UAS for girls. Man up and get drinking, it will stand you in good stead for the rest of your time in the airforce!

muppetofthenorth

15th Jan 2007, 17:26

Woah! Im not saying I don't drink! I'm just saying that it's not a forced thing...

I know very few people who don't, but I know that if somebody said 'nah, not tonight thanks' we would never push them into it.

Legalapproach

15th Jan 2007, 17:27

When I was at school, the PE teacher had a "relationship" with a fifth year (she was 16) and, as far as I know, they are still married.

Not any longer, section 16 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 created the offence of Abuse of position of trust: sexual activity with a child. Without going through it word by word a teacher having any sexual activity with a pupil under 18 who attends the place of education at which he teaches faces up to 5 years of "re-education" at one of Her Majesty's penal institutions.

ProfessionalStudent

15th Jan 2007, 17:40

Like dipping my wick in my mates daughter.

You like dipping your wick in your mate's daughter eh? Does he know?

And you have the front to question UAS staff.
The downright cheek!

I agree with the above. Got a problem - use the chain of command. If you haven't - don't try and stir the sh!t in here. Weasel.

Just cos you ain't getting any...?

Alexander.Yakovlev

15th Jan 2007, 18:32

It genuinely pains me to say it, but if you beleive that the UAS drink heavily you clearly haven't socilised with URNU or UOTC...

BootFlap

15th Jan 2007, 18:38

So let me get this right, two (or in some cases three, jammy bar steward!) consenting adults of legal age have been 'getting it on' having met through work; this may also have involved some socialising. Someone not involved has decided to go public rather than confront the issue to those 'bumping uglies'. So, I asume this is Mr Prescott at it again?
Frankly, it's up to them! If they are happy, who are we to complain? If they are not, there are plenty of ways of solving it between themselves (I believe that dumping by text is now de rigeur). For myself, I wonder would it have been ok if one of my IOT Flt Cdrs had offered me a ride; she certainly did in my dreams....................................................
whoops, ND, ND!

tmmorris

15th Jan 2007, 18:55

At most universities that sort of thing is OK but the lecturer has to tell the head of department, so they don't find themselves marking the student's exams... This is quite a good deterrent: having to go to the Professor and explain you are bonking half your seminar group is a tad hard to do. Unless he's doing it too, of course.

Tim

SASless

15th Jan 2007, 20:24

Whirls my sweet....even old rats like cheese! I'll go halves on the bar bill....honest!

Sunfish

15th Jan 2007, 21:01

With great respect, if any of you or your colleagues are detected having a relationship with a person where there is an instructor/student relationship that implies trust and a position of power in any institution I am aware of, you will be immediately shown the door, notwithstanding legal age etc. etc.

While I am aware of people getting away with it in the services over here, it is NOT a good idea and scandals and lots of tears regularly occur - they just rarely make the media.

P.S. Is pregnancy regarded as a self inflicted wound?

mayorofgander

15th Jan 2007, 21:20

[SIGH]
I just wish I had the chance with the younger girls these days (16-30 age group before you start)!!!:\
Saying that....even 30 is pushing it now!!:{

MOG:cool:

airborne_artist

15th Jan 2007, 21:21

P.S. Is pregnancy regarded as a self inflicted wound?

In the non-PC 80s, pregnant ladies were referred to by A+E staff at Tommys' as "Bedroom stabbings"

Alexander.Yakovlev

15th Jan 2007, 21:49

In fairness though, university involves a lot of drinking anyway, so what is the problem with drinking in a cheaper bar and having the same/more fun with your friends?

clicker

16th Jan 2007, 01:46

....and then instructor has to give student a bollocking....

Known in my trade as a repeat offence. :ok:

Sorry Whirl's, unable to resist that. :E

clicker

Whirlygig

16th Jan 2007, 06:54

'Salright clicker, I sometimes wonder if anyone gets my jokes!!! :E

Shall I be your straight man? :}

Cheers

Whirls

Green Meat

16th Jan 2007, 08:40

BluntedAtBirth

16th Jan 2007, 09:14

I have been told that instructors in the ground training system have to sign an additional commitment to maintain 'proper relationships etc etc' with students, hence if they break the 'no bonking' agreement they can be dragged over the coals. If the UAS instructors sign something similar, and how could the fun police miss a trick like that, then they would be in the proverbial and subject to interviews on Core Standards and Values.

Still, if there is a real problem, as opposed to a bit of jealousy :yuk: , and it does breach the 'Service Interest Test', then pprune isnt the place to whinge about it annonymously! Either tell the (lucky git) they are offside or raise it with the chain of command.

Inspector Dreyfuss

16th Jan 2007, 09:41

I am delighted to hear that some irresponsible drinking still goes on amongst the students!

Wholigan

16th Jan 2007, 10:53

If the UAS instructors sign something similar, and how could the fun police miss a trick like that, then they would be in the proverbial and subject to interviews on Core Standards and Values.

They do ---- they haven't ---- and they are!

EnigmAviation

16th Jan 2007, 11:15

It has come to my attention that a number of instructors seem to think it acceptable to have relationships with students who are under their guidance....Not only that, but it also seems crazy that in an organisation that prides itself on standards we are encouraging these UAS students to drink themselves into oblivion. Surely this is something that really must be adressed.

Well said !

Having retired after 30 years of dealing with studes at close quarters in the cockpit (now trainees to be PC) of both genders, I think the correct behaviour code is called "Professionalism".

However tempting the goods, look but don't touch ! Keeps one's career going too !

Caveat Aviator is a good rule - every bit of Mess "good fun" can deteriorate into a much more serious matter all too easily - as one recent Court Martial of a young and talented SH pilot will bear witness.

Equally on the bar front, breathalyser checks in some places may be more revealing than we would like - thus again enjoy, but remember your core activity - and in the long term your liver !!

FormerFlake

16th Jan 2007, 11:18

The only reason we still have the UAS system is so fat, bolding pilots can get some action with impressionable young students.

scroggs

16th Jan 2007, 11:20

Things have changed then, Wholi! ;)

My earlier comment about instructors having married students in the past was not a throwaway line; I was one of those who married a student (though she was a social member, and not on the UAS roll). This was a live issue at the time (late '80s), and the high-powered help had to accept that such relationships were between consenting adults of officer status, and so could not be prevented. The conflict of interest question naturally came up, but it was down to individual UASs to deal with that as they saw fit. In one or two cases, that meant that the student left the Squadron, but in many more it was made to work.

To my knowledge, the first such relationship - and subsequent marriage - is alive and well and has produced several offspring. And more than one or two hangovers!

3 bladed beast

16th Jan 2007, 12:20

Seem to remember a recent case at Lyneham where a co-pilot on the J Sqn had an affair with another co-pilots wife.....

He remained at Lyneham, virtually unpunished....

But I guess thats ok!

Wader2

16th Jan 2007, 13:07

AFAICR we never had a problem with unprofessional conduct between student and instructor at Nav School.

Until we had female studes that is :} .

Joking aside it was so new and no one transgressed (initially anyway) that there were no rules. There was however mutterings about one old, sallow and balding (but not fat) instructor and one particularly notable student but, again as far as I can recall, nothing ever came out if you forgive the pun. He was the course commander.

Mmmmnice

16th Jan 2007, 18:33

Oi FF - I'm neither fat, nor bolding (whatever that is)
In the meantime I say string em all up and bring back early morning runs, conscription, cold showers, hanging etc etc ........did I miss anything? Nice to see this forum suddenly 'discovering' a UAS mo that has endured for years! Certainly the only bit I remember of my outbrief from CFS was "leave the girls alone" - no doubt there would be an updated version covering all 'preferences' these days

rooftopartist

17th Jan 2007, 12:11

get a life "seen a lot", in fact, get out and see a lot.

Tigs2

18th Jan 2007, 09:02

'Wish I'd Seen-A-Lot'
Freud and Jung would argue that the feelings of anxiety and anger you are experiencing over these issues are cause by repressed emotions, caused by a deep rooted desire towards this particular age group, and the power play thing. It unsettles you that others can take advantage of this and you (any where near the mid-life crisis??) cannot. This was particularly reinforced by your very robust statement denying your interest.
I've rattled someones cage have I? To be honest I can think of nothing worse. 18..... no thanks. Like dipping my wick in my mates daughter.
There are definitly things worse than this surely.
Now lay back on the couch... Take a deep breath... and tell us about your childhood, and perhaps your teachers:E

ShyTorque

18th Jan 2007, 20:03

This UAS thing sounds great; where do we sign?

Whirlygig

18th Jan 2007, 20:37

ShyT, I think you might be a little old to be a student now!

Cheers

Whirls

TorqueOfTheDevil

30th Jan 2007, 22:08

Simply don't see what all the fuss is about...

Leaving aside the relationship issue, which has already been done to death, I don't see the problem with a few drink-related high jinks by UAS members. Of course UAS studes can sometimes be a noisy obnoxious bunch, but in my experience (not so long ago!), UAS events - though usually drunken - rarely (if ever) involved drugs and rarely (if ever) ended in violence...in which case, UAS studes are better behaved than 95% of people their age. Aren't there more important things to complain about than a bit of youthful exuberance?

Thirty Eight South

31st Jan 2007, 01:58

[quote: Surely this is something that really must be adressed.[/quote]

there's a typo there cobber, surley it's 'undressed'?

If, on the off chance, you find yourself in the boozer, half cut, 6 or 7 pints to the wind and some bonkable piece of totty hoves into view, follow the magic pointer, stroll over, chance your arm and think of england..

PhoenixDaCat

31st Jan 2007, 12:21

Whirly
Just to pick you up on that earlier point it IS now a criminal offence for a teacher/lecturer to have a relationship with a student under the age of 18, it is seriously frowned upon at University level (although the extension to the law to cover Uni fell through - wonder why?)

The ACO had this great idea of putting the words "Instructor Cadet" on the rank tabs of those cadets over 18. Makes it nice and easy for the airmen to identify the legal ones when on annual camp.:8

flipster

9th Feb 2007, 10:32

I'm glad to hear that the UASs have not yet gone completely PC, even though the flying has been trimmed back - much to my amazement and anger.

Its sounds as though the fun detectors are out, however, so always remember Rule 1, 2 and 3 - ie

"Don't Get Caught!"

I also remember the CFS advice about the young lasses ('look but do not touch') - which is still the party line. IIRC this was always cited for professional reasons rather than from an older man/young girl (or vice-versa)perspective.

While there were many attractive young ladies at my UAS, I could only just afford to keep Mrs Flipster, so adding to my stable (so to speak) was never an option and, frankly, it was never seriuosly considered.

Thankfully, we enjoyed a totally professional relationship with our studes and treated them as adults rather than 'kids' or 'bits of totty' as did most QFIs on almost every UASs. We laughed and sang, bought eachother beer, occasionally 'got piddled' and got into high spirits. We played sports together, told tales of daring-do and bantered merrily, while the QFIs occasionally taught the rudiments of up-down-left-right and, even more occasionally, good manners and RAF ettiquette.

It was a priviledge to help any stude get their feet on the bottom rungs of aviation ladder and most of 'my' trainee pilots and officers have now far surpassed my modest acheivements. I suspect that they did well in spite of my efforts rather than because of them. Certainly, I am more enriched by contact with my studes than the other way around.

Long live the UASs and as for the fun police - kindly 'foxtrot oscar' and crawl back under the stone from whence you came.

(But please bring back more flying)!!

RN Merlin Pilot

9th Feb 2007, 21:55

I must say that I am not a little horrified to read this thread.:confused:

The very idea that usage of University students for sexual gratification is now considered unwholsome in the RAF makes me wonder what the world is coming to.

Surely the RAF initially set up the UASs for the same reason that the RN set up the URNUs in 1908:-

To quote from BR 1992, The Regulation of URNUs:-

"...so as to ensure that, in the unfortunate circumstance that an officer in an unfamiliar city cannot inveigle his way into the embrace of a lady of breeding and quality, perhaps due to time pressure or the pox, he will not feel pressured to frequent houses of ill repute with their inherrant risk of meeting a member of the lower deck. Instead he may proceed without unseemly haste to an URNU, and be sure of a soft landing with some alacrity within the eager arms of a relatively well educated lady who is unlikely to charge"