WINGS AND CS95 - Please help!

[Lima Juliet]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1595000/images/_1598034_troops150.jpg
OK, so CAS can wear wings on his CS95(desert DPMs) and he is on the Air Force Board Standing Committee - who authorises what we can wear on our uniforms. Also the PM is fine with it as well.

Does that mean we can put our wings on CS95 now??:E

Seriously, anyone know how we get things changed in AP1398 on RAF Uniform. I'd like to get a few things off of my chest about aviator's insignia and attire to someone in charge.

PM me if you don't want to post.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Personally, I'm not too sure why somebody would want to wear their wangs on their cabbage kit but I guess if CAS is doing it, that's all the top cover you need. There are times and places where you don't want to be drawing attention to the fact that you are driver, airframe. Need I say more?

Also the PM is fine with it as well. The PM doesn't know the first thing about military dress regs and probably couldn't care less if CAS had appeared in a pink feather boa. Remember that on a recent occassion when the PM addressed the troops in the sandpit, his turnout was a bag of sh1te, looking like a double glazing rep having a lunchtime sharpener in the slug and lettuce. Great guy.

[PTT]

Point of DPM = to not be seen easily by the enemy.
Add big white set of wings at the top of the left lung.
Possible consequences:
1. Get mistaken for an albatros a long way away.
2. Require a rubber vest to breathe properly.

[airborne_artist]

WTF do you think cabbage kit is for? It's not a fashion statement designed to make you look attractive to the opposite/same sex (delete if/as/when appropriate).

It's designed to allow you to hide behind trees and rocks and become invisible to the enemy, so why the f:mad: :mad: ck do you want to draw attention to yourself?

Do you fancy having your toenails pulled off with pliers while your bolleaux are toasted over an open fire, so they can get videos of the brave driver, airframe, bubbling all up on Al Jazeera?

Frankly I'd suggest no badges of rank either, as that will be easily picked on too, but that would be going to far for the anally-retentive that make up the middle-management.

Suffice to say that in the hooligans we managed without rank badges (even the Ruperts) in the field, and no-one died :E

[Barely Restrained]

Errrrr, if they were caught, wouldn't the fact that the individual was fat, wheezy and talking incessantly about themselves give away the fact that they were RAF aircrew?!!! It may well be beneficial to wear wings and claim to be an AT driver, in which case you would likely be handed back to friendly forces in order to further disrupt the allies war effort.

[airborne_artist]

And in case you think the banter from fellow/former mil mates is too cruel, read what the farmstrip flyers dished out to one of their own when as a newly-minted PPL he asked about wearing epaulettes (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236223&highlight=epaulettes).

[Heywood Djablowme]

...also, what rank do you have to be before it's okay to wear an SD cap with CS95? With all due respect Sir you look daft.

[BellEndBob]

What's the matter, afraid you might have to rely on your personality to get you noticed/through a conversation?:{
Maybe the law should be changed to allow the wearing of flying suits and associated coloured badges even when you leave the RAF.:}



Chump

[Roadster280]

...also, what rank do you have to be before it's okay to wear an SD cap with CS95? With all due respect Sir you look daft.

Seconded. In reverse, this is equivalent to wearing a "deputy dawg" ECW hat with No1s. Equally hilarious, though unlikely I fear.

[Melchett01]

Where are the MODs when you need them, as this really hasn't anything to do with military aviation, unless you start talking about flying coveralls.

Oh well go on then, in the most tenuous way I can think of linking it.

Seeing as we are all talking about dress regs whilst on det, can I ask why it is that we can't get desert flying suits here in JHC but there appear to be lots of them going begging for Air Stewards, movers etc on the AT fleet.

Oh and Sir, you do look a bit daft with that hat on in deserts. A mite Soviet I think is what first sprang to mind when I saw it.

There you go Ratty - happy now :E ?

[teeteringhead]

He also appears to be wearing a joint/combined service stable belt rather than an RAF one.

Joint appropriate for CDS, but surely not for CAS ...:confused:

...and of course I agree with Melch about desert grobags ;)

[NightFlit]

It's designed to allow you to hide behind trees and rocks and become invisible to the enemy, so why the f:mad: :mad: ck do you want to draw attention to yourself?

Do pilots, on combat missions, therefore remove their name badges and Squadron Crests? Cos surely if they had to bail out and go covert over a war zone - a big flashy badge and yellow Squadron Crest would stick out like sore thumb.

[R 21]

Melchett01

money all spent on green grow bags by mistake and the fire proof DCC is on the streets so why need dessie flying suits ?

[228 OCU]

PoR!
The higher up you go the more you can get away with.

[Mr C Hinecap]

It first happened in 96-ish when a det co asked BZZ to send out a couple of sets of brevets to put on his DPM. Totally against regs (then) but who were we to argue? We packed them up, sent them and chuckled.

Since then, it seems to be the men on the ground who wear them. The boys (and girls) who do the work in the air don't seem to need them.

Still - only on a par with overweight sky-queens at BZZ wearing jumpers all summer so we knew they flew. :ok:

[Climebear]

He also appears to be wearing a joint/combined service stable belt rather than an RAF one.
Joint appropriate for CDS, but surely not for CAS ...:confused:
...and of course I agree with Melch about desert grobags ;)


Not sure when the photo was taken and I can't count how many stripes there are on his shoulders. It does look as if he is wearing Air Mshl rank which would mean that he was CJO at the time.

Strange though, AAC can wear pilots' wings on CS95 etc and the great airborne warrior race (of all 3 services) can wear there wings but the RA(run by pilots)F have written a rule to say that they can't (and then they (the people responsible for the aformention rule) just ignore it anyway).:ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

The "Jointery" belt will be from his time as CJO. :ok:

I actually think we should advertise who we are at work - it makes it easier to find a subject matter expert (those bloody WSO/WSOp wings are a nightmare; you don't whether your speaking to a Nav/Eng/AEO or ALM - quite a spectrum of different abilities, don't you think?).:ugh: If I had my way there would be a badge or emblem to distinguish all personnel's profession - don't you think it would be useful?

On the subject of sanitising before missions, I've always thought it a little excessive. There you are, standing with your hands up because your Walther has jammed, next a smoking wreck with the biggest fin in NATO, trying to say in Farsi that you're "not aircrew honest Abdullah!". Having looked into the Somali Blackhawk shootdown, I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that the captured US mate was a pilot may well have saved his bacon. If he was a grunt he would not be worth looking after after and would probably be handed to the angry mob with Mr Machete.:eek:

Ratty, what a great idea about Trinny and Susannah. "What Not to Wear, Sir!". Having seen some of my Boss's detachment "Going out kit" they are ripe for the treatment.:8

I guess no-one has any helpful tips on how to get in touch with the "Uniform Police" then??:confused:

[Roland Pulfrew]

...also, what rank do you have to be before it's okay to wear an SD cap with CS95? With all due respect Sir you look daft.

No. Sorry! When I went through IOT the briefing was "berets are for Regiment officers and airmen, no self respecting officer would wear one". ;) Ergo SD hat and combats!!:ok:

[BEagle]

"Berets are only for rockapes, enlisted filth and French onion-sellers", I was told.

Seems about right. Same goes for cabbage kit.

And ALJs should be mandatory with blues - to make the point that one is not some ground-pounding penguin Untermensch, but a noble Brother Flyer!

[BellEndBob]

Leon, you are a prat.

So, grunts are not worth looking after? These are the same grunts who are fighting for their lives every day while HM RAF's 'finest' impress small children at Air Shows, say Happy Birthday to the Queen and play cops and robbers in OTA E.

I am just back from my 3rd stint and my respect to the SH and AAC guys. As for the 'Few', that is certainly true, did not see one in 3 months.

At least we all know Beagle is stuck firmly in the 70's, what is your excuse?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Melchett01]

Alternatively, if you are that desperate to look daft, just call it "Thursday Morning dress (ops)".

I'm sure you will get away with it as surely nobody in their right minds would bother or have the time to look up dress regs would they........LJ?????

[airborne_artist]

Having looked into the Somali Blackhawk shootdown, I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that the captured US mate was a pilot may well have saved his bacon. If he was a grunt he would not be worth looking after after and would probably be handed to the angry mob with Mr Machete.

You Sir, are a d:mad: ck:mad: ead of the first, second and third order - your concern about uniform regs is unhealthy to a degree :E

[228 OCU]

I say chaps, steady on!



If in doubt BANG OUT!

[228 OCU]

I used to sit up at the pointy end but was always of the opinion that anybody could do that, and that the real brains and courage sat in the back.



If in doubt BANG OUT!

[threepointonefour]

Having 'been there' on a certain black & silver squadron when we started the wearing of aircrew leather jackets, flouting the dress regs and being banned by the Stn Cdr at Valley while on MPC, I feel I must stand up for the rather rotund Leon Jabberwocky.


Surely the air officer's dress should be impeccable if they insist we all adhere to a core standard? God knows he has about 4 minions to sort this stuff out for him? I know nothing about 'jointery' (other than it is a made up word) and the dress regs therein, nor do I care.


Some years ago I was at a senior officers briefing on the introduction of the new WSO branch and brevet. He declared that the RAF would fall in line with the americans in re-naming our navigators as WSOs ... this was much more descriptive of the role and emminently sensible in his opinion. When a wag (pilot) at the back suggested that we should go the whole hog and give all aircrew 2 wings, with a differentiator in the middle, said senior officer (& Harrier pilot) just about imploded. So forgive my cynicism, but I think the only people who really give a toss are those in the middle, who can make a name for themselves one way or another.

As an aside, SD hats and CS95 DO NOT GO TOGETHER, whatever twisted officer viewpoint you may have - a chip bag is a much more discerning alternative, one where you neither look like a prat nor a grunt.


And as you know Leon, I could never begin to answer your question as I've never had any idea about things like that.



Interesting side debate ...

Does it matter what you're wearing after being shot down? Your aircraft lies smouldering some 1 nm away, you're in a flight suit and the helmet nearby is a suspiciously reasonable fit (squipper dependent!). I'm with Leon here - most grunts capturing you may do little more than rough you up for fear of damaging 'the goods' if they know you're aircrew, as they may get into trouble for lessening the ransom demand.

There is no answer to this - only that I really think it makes no difference whatsoever whether you wear wings on your CS95 or flight suit in an operational zone. The only comment could be that the white could stand out too much - in which case a return to the black on green would be fine.

[Pontius Navigator]

Do pilots, on combat missions, therefore remove their name badges and Squadron Crests?

Yes.

All badges are fastened with velcro. Still gives the game away. One ex-Int O (Green Slime) was in Belize in Apr 1982, when some RAF types in growbags came in. They had no badges but patches.

As an expert Int O with a hobby of observing badges he knew they were 39 Sqn.

[The Helpful Stacker]

As an expert Int O with a hobby of observing badges he knew they were 39 Sqn.

As they were 39 Sqn aircrew maybe the colostomy bags gave it away.;)

[PTT]

Interesting side debate ...

Does it matter what you're wearing after being shot down? Your aircraft lies smouldering some 1 nm away, you're in a flight suit and the helmet nearby is a suspiciously reasonable fit (squipper dependent!). I'm with Leon here - most grunts capturing you may do little more than rough you up for fear of damaging 'the goods' if they know you're aircrew, as they may get into trouble for lessening the ransom demand.

There is no answer to this - only that I really think it makes no difference whatsoever whether you wear wings on your CS95 or flight suit in an operational zone. The only comment could be that the white could stand out too much - in which case a return to the black on green would be fine.
It does matter in a helicopter. Who are the pax and who are the crew (apart from the obvious of the crew being the ones looking down the wrong end of the gun)?
It also matters in FOBs, where snipers able to pick out such details as badges can take one look and say to themselves "ooh - I can down an aircraft here without it even getting airborne, and save HMG a shed-load of flying pay in one go..." Which is in itself an argument for wearing berets in such areas.

[Pontius Navigator]

As they were 39 Sqn aircrew maybe the colostomy bags gave it away.;)

Nah, they were 24 years younger then.

[Mad_Mark]

On the subject of sanitising before missions, I've always thought it a little excessive. There you are, standing with your hands up because your Walther has jammed, next a smoking wreck with the biggest fin in NATO, trying to say in Farsi that you're "not aircrew honest Abdullah!".

Shows what little you know then doesn't it :rolleyes:

If you want to take the risk, if ever in the situation where you are captured, of giving your interrogators lots of things to 'talk' to you about - your job (brevet), squadron (badge), wife (photo), address (driving licence), etc - then that is up to you.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

We used to p*ss the stn cdr off big time. The old Mk 4 flying suit (temperate climate) was a shiny slate grey/dark blue rather than the (tropical) lighter blue one which soon became grubby.

Mr Staish decreed that all flying suits were to be badged, one light blue was for airshows etc and the dark slate grey one was for VIP visits. To a man we all refused and reserved the grey/blue - no badges - for QRA.

Flying Clothing used to write big identifying marks on the label - which we then cut out :) . When they painted the outside of our bone domes with COTnn we went ballistic and made them remove all the markings.

OK, a big smoking hole in a Russian city and a bedraggled airman in a blue romper suit might have been a bit of a give away.

[torque dirty to me]

The white wings you crabs wear look daft anyway! If you were any good you'd have a gold set! And we ony wear ours on our flying overalls and coffee mugs! We rely on professionalism to stand out while driving a desk and wearing a shirt and tie, rather than accessorising every bloody shirt and jumper!

The team works and all that! It's hard enough to combat the "all wafus are wankers mentality" in a fishheads' mob without rubbing their faces in it all the time!

You've changed Ratty, you've changed!:E

[toddbabe]

Who really cares what CAS wears! and as for people who wear chip hats and black leather flying jackets! don't get me started.
Why would anyone want to purchase a chip hat to wear when the RAF provides you with a perfectly good free beret.
Also I believe that the current rules for theatre mean that you don't have to completely sanitise before you go flying, name badges , sqn crests, brevets etc are all considered fine, the thinking behind this is that the type of people on the ground who may capture you post crash aren't interested in what your job is or what you might know about the aircraft or it's systems, they will just be extactic to have captured any coalition member to parade and use in the propaganda war.

[threepointonefour]

Who really cares what CAS wears! and as for people who wear chip hats and black leather flying jackets! don't get me started.
Why would anyone want to purchase a chip hat to wear when the RAF provides you with a perfectly good free beret.
Also I believe that the current rules for theatre mean that you don't have to completely sanitise before you go flying, name badges , sqn crests, brevets etc are all considered fine, the thinking behind this is that the type of people on the ground who may capture you post crash aren't interested in what your job is or what you might know about the aircraft or it's systems, they will just be extactic to have captured any coalition member to parade and use in the propaganda war.

I agree with everything.

Except this;

... chip hats and black leather flying jackets! don't get me started.
Why would anyone want to purchase a chip hat to wear when the RAF provides you with a perfectly good free beret.

Surely you're not suggesting wearing a beret with a leather jacket, a la one of our cheese-eating surrendering allies? Good god man/woman, have you no dress sense?

ps. There's something to be said for paying £25 and looking ok than paying nowt and looking stupid.

[circle kay]

If only you could get a guarantee that you would look ok in your £25 chip hat. Especially the ones who think they are making some kind of statement by having it tilted towards the left (i.e. wrong) ear. :ugh: Almost always Navs I’ve found. Says it all.

[threepointonefour]

The only thing Navs look good in is a McDonald's uniform;).


May I refer the honourable gentleman to his previous question ...

Has anybody done the above City and Guilds? Airline Ops and dispatch. Please PM me if you have. TA



Methinks you'll be shunned by McDs and end up at Wimpy. :p

[threepointonefour]

Go on then tell me what is wrong with asking that?

You appear to be in a glass house ...

[threepointonefour]

look, I am sorry that you are a Navigator but you are just going to have to live with your choice. I guess you are too old to re-branch so you are stuck with it.

Not I, I will survive.

[circle kay]

A very popular song in a certain type of Disco apparently.:)

[Mmmmnice]

If you want to look like a dogs dinner, then wear CS 95 (covered in various badges indicating your service, trade, command etc) finished off with an SD hat and flying boots. I can remember what my service and trade is, and would expect anyone else to work it out by the rank I wear and where I sit in my aircraft. As for berets - please don't start Beags off again - I seem to recall the forage cap had a nickname that was the vernacular for part of the female form, and suggested what one looked like when wearing it - I rest my case.

[6foottanker]

A lot of these arguments are null and void if you think about it. Look at the paras, who proudly display their jump wings on their cabbage kit, both at home and away, and they are rightly proud of their achievements to earn the badge. The RMs wear a whacking great dagger and slogan depicting their speciality. How can aircrew be criticised for wearing their wings on their kit, when they certainly have earned the right to wear them.

[circle kay]

The RM and Paras all comply to dress regulations. I've never understood the thinking that aircrew ( espeacily senior aircrew ) can do what they like.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

All the AAC pilots I have seen wear their wings on CS95 so it seems you will only get criticised if you are aircrew AND RAF. But at least we all have our Royal Air Force badge, Union Jack and DZ patch so no one will mistake us for Paras or Marines:ok:

[6foottanker]

Hmmm, I have always had that problem! But JOY! NO LONGER!

[timex]

[QUOTE]But at least we all have our Royal Air Force badge, Union Jack and DZ patch so no one will mistake us for Paras or Marines [QUOTE]


Trust me that will never happen.................with or without your badges!!;)

[airborne_artist]

All the AAC pilots I have seen wear their wings on CS95 so it seems you will only get criticised...

...Look at the paras, who proudly display their jump wings on their cabbage kit, both at home and away, and they are rightly proud of their achievements to earn the badge. The RMs wear a whacking great dagger and slogan depicting their speciality.

With few exceptions the infantry and the AAC do not operate far behind enemy lines - thus their uniform is not really an issue if captured. Aircrew are of course frequently operating in some depth beyond the front line, and those acting in support of SF either in SH, AT or moving mud should think about the guys they might be giving away, as well as their own skins, before going adorned with too many badges.

FWIW badges do not stop bullets :E

[Climebear]

With few exceptions the infantry and the AAC do not operate far behind enemy lines - thus their uniform is not really an issue if captured. Aircrew are of course frequently operating in some depth beyond the front line, and those acting in support of SF either in SH, AT or moving mud should think about the guys they might be giving away, as well as their own skins, before going adorned with too many badges.
FWIW badges do not stop bullets :E


Those aircrew you mention would not be wearing CS95 (No 3 Service Dress) - they would be wearing flying kit (No 14 Dress (Flying Clothing)).

[rudekid]

AA
That's all very well, but these days 'enemy lines' are a little bit blurred. Classic definitions of FLOT etc don't really do justice to how we find the ground truth in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is an argument put forward that you should put as many badges on as possible so that you are 'humanized' to the individuals who may be trying to/have captured you. Can't say I'm overly excited either way, or by the prospect of being caught by the Taliban, AQ or even the local village Mullah!
You're not going to compromise anyone by either wearing a badge or not wearing a badge. If you're caught everything to do with any Op is considered compromised. And if someone's holding a gun to my head, that consideration would be well placed!
So ultimately, wear your SD hat, wings on your CS95, jump wings on your shoulder or poncy Harrier flap boots. You'll look a pratt, but it won't make a jot of difference to how you're treated by the enemy.
But, if you want to be ridiculed by all your mates (and break dress regs) put your wings on your desert combats!:E

[The Burning Bush]

Errrrr, if they were caught, wouldn't the fact that the individual was fat, wheezy and talking incessantly about themselves give away the fact that they were RAF aircrew?!!!
...........LOL...........

[airborne_artist]

That's all very well, but these days 'enemy lines' are a little bit blurred. Classic definitions of FLOT etc don't really do justice to how we find the ground truth in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So in these conditions it's very simple - wear CS95/grow-bag, negative badges of any description - not even rank. You should know and be known by your team, and no-one else needs to know.

If you've got wings/Boy Scouts' hoof-picking qualification, so what, both are knack-all use in a fire-fight, in my humble and all-too-real experience.

[rudekid]

So in these conditions it's very simple - wear CS95/grow-bag, negative badges of any description - not even rank. You should know and be known by your team, and no-one else needs to know.
If you've got wings/Boy Scouts' hoof-picking qualification, so what, both are knack-all use in a fire-fight, in my humble and all-too-real experience.


Surely, by definition, having wings automatically makes me knack all use in a firefight. :} That and the pop-gun I'm carrying...Luckily I'm dead-eye Dick following my ten rounds this year.;)

[Melchett01]

Those aircrew you mention would not be wearing CS95 (No 3 Service Dress) - they would be wearing flying kit (No 14 Dress (Flying Clothing)).

Unless they happen to be in JHC when they probably won't. Or if they do, it's not personal issue and it is handed over to the next chap at the end of the det.

[Wader2]

Look at the paras, who proudly display their jump wings . . .

And not just on their cabbage kit either :oh:

[BluntedAtBirth]

Seeing as we are all talking about dress regs whilst on det, can I ask why it is that we can't get desert flying suits here in JHC but there appear to be lots of them going begging for Air Stewards, movers etc on the AT fleet.

About 3 years ago, Comd JHC (an RAF 2*) decided not to spend his (shrinking) budget on desert flying suits but that the boys would stag on in temperates. The decision has not been reversed by his successor, despite being asked.

[BEagle]

Hmmm....

Introduction

The main legislation governing Personal Protective Equipment at work is the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations (PPE) 1992. The Management of Heath and Safety at Work Regulations (MHSW) 1999 also control this area. This article explains what sorts of equipment employers should provide as well as the precautions employees need to take in order to stay safe.

The MSHW regulations require employers to identify and assess the risks to health and safety in the workplace. All risks must then minimised as far as possible. Where an activity requires some risk, the risk could be minimised in a number of ways – one of which is to wear the appropriate personal protective equipment.

Regulation requirements

The requirements are simply that where there is a risk to an employee’s health and or safety, which cannot be controlled in other ways, protective equipment must be supplied (by the employer) and used by the employee carrying out the activity at hand.

The Regulations also require that:

- the equipment is properly assessed before use to ensure suitability

- it is maintained and stored properly

- it is provided with instructions for safe use

- it is used correctly by employees

What is PPE?

Personal protective Equipment (PPE) is “all equipment (including clothing affording protection against the weather) which is intended to be worn or held by a person at work and which protects him against one or more risks to his health or safety”. This could include helmets, gloves, eye protection, safety harnesses, high-visibility clothing and more.

Hearing protection and respiratory protective equipment are not covered by these regulations. The former is covered by the Noise at Work Regulations. Of course these items must still be compatible with PPE.

Cycle helmets and crash helmets worn by employees on the road are not covered by these regulations. Motor cycle helmets are legally required under road traffic legislation.

Can I charge for using PPE?

No consideration is required by the employee for the use of protective equipment. However, if a term in the employment contract states that the employee must return the equipment, and he does not do so, the employer would then be entitled to deduct a suitable amount from the wages owing to the employee.

Assessment of PPE

The hazard in the work place must first be assessed. Once the exact risks are known, suitable PPE can be selected. Make sure that the equipment does not adversely affect the overall risks of the activity. Make sure that the equipment can be appropriately adjusted to ensure a good fit for the individual who is to wear the equipment. If more than one item of PPE is worn, are they compatible with each other?

Eyes – hazards include chemical or metal splash, dust, gas and vapour and radiation. PPE could include goggles, visors, safety spectacles and face masks.

Head – hazards include impact from falling or flying objects, risk of head bumping, hair entanglements. PPE could include a range of helmets and bump caps.

Breathing – hazards include dust, vapour, gas, oxygen deficient atmospheres. PPE could include air-fed helmets, breathing apparatus, partial or full face masks.

Protection of the body – hazards include extreme temperatures, adverse weather, chemical or metal splash, and contaminated dust. PPE could include disposable or conventional overalls, bodysuits, chain mail, high-visibility clothing.

Hand and arms – hazards incude abrasion, cuts and punctures, electric shock, skin infection. PPE could include gloves, wrist cuffs or armlets.

Face and legs – hazards include wet / damp, falling objects, slipping, abrasion. PPE could include safety boots and shoes, leggings.


I would have thought that your employer had an obligation to provide you with PPE which affords you the relavant protection from 'extremes of temperature' under the Health and Safety at Work regulations - and if the current budget can't run to that, then either the budget needs to be increased or the task re-assessed.

[QFIhawkman]

Thank you for that cut-and-pastathon Beags, very civil.

Now if you could just explain to me how any of that makes it alright to wear an SD hat and a brevet with desert combats please....

There's a good chap.

[Wader2]

About 3 years ago, Comd JHC (an RAF 2*) decided not to spend his (shrinking) budget on desert flying suits but that the boys would stag on in temperates. The decision has not been reversed by his successor, despite being asked.

Tad harsh there QFIHawkman, I think BEagle's post referred to the message immediately above his.

[QFIhawkman]

Fair point, I was just seeing if I could tempt Beags with a little bait. I wondered whether he could possibly come out with a comment as crass as his earlier one about berets!

"They're soo working class dear boy!"

[Wader2]

Fair point, I was just seeing if I could tempt Beags with a little bait.

Wonder who killed your other goat baiting thread?

[QFIhawkman]

God knows, things are getting pulled left right and center in here at the moment!

[QFIhawkman]

I will not dignify your post with a reply.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Ratboy,

He/she is commisioned so your mistakes was believing a thing he/she has to say:rolleyes:

[QFIhawkman]

I will not reply to childish insults like yours ABIW.

People like you will go away if they are ignored for long enough.

[rudekid]

I will not reply to childish insults like yours ABIW.
People like you will go away if they are ignored for long enough.
Said the man replying!;)

[threepointonefour]

But you said you were going away!!!! Obviously one wind swept night on Anglesey and you missed us too much.

'One' ??!!

[Real_McCoy]

SD Hat and combats = gay!

[Runaway Gun]

That's the new recruiting advertising poster sorted then.....:p

[Mud Clubber]

Many guys who work in the joint environment want to know that you are aircrew if you have some kind of direct liason in which your expertise is important to them. Most people will apportion variable credibilty to advice depending on the person and their level of knowledge. It was put to me very succinctly in a conversation where some gentlemen said "How am I supposed to know who you are and what you do, you're just another blue-suiter to me!"
The Paras wear wings, and they are proud of it. The Marines wear daggers and the regiments (and now the RAF) wear flashes and are proud of it. Many air forces (RAAF, USAF etc..) have got badges to wear on blues, they are obviously proud too! Of course, there are times when wearing them would be foolish, like if you are prone to capture, but in general they are to be worn because it is who we are. The problem is the RAF is so fluffy-wuffy that the chaps without wings get terribly put-out when someone is around who is wearing a set. I make no apology for the fact they are a status symbol - it is part of our history.
We've worked our socks off to get our wings. Either get some yourself or stop whineing.
Rant over.

[ZH875]

We've worked our socks off to get our wings. Either get some yourself or stop whineing

Many tradespeople in the Avionic/Communications field have worked their socks off to obtain their 'Sparky' badge, but are they allowed to emblazon it on their woolly pully, or their coveralls or CS95's, NO, but it is still a trade badge, just like the 1 or ½ winged aircrew trade badge.:8

Then again, how many tradespeople in the Avionic/Communications field would actually want to wear it on CS95's. I would bet that they would not constantly whinge about not being able to wear them either.:bored:

In 1943 the automatic pilot was invented, we still await the invention of the automatic groundcrew.

Hat & Coat at the ready

[Time Flies]

Many tradespeople in the Avionic/Communications field have worked their socks off to obtain their 'Sparky' badge, but are they allowed to emblazon it on their woolly pully, or their coveralls or CS95's, NO, but it is still a trade badge, just like the 1 or ½ winged aircrew trade badge.

If only they had worked their socks off a few years earlier, at school.

:{

[Mud Clubber]

Pilot is not a trade it's a profession - officers are commissioned into a branch, not a trade. Do they train for 3 years to get a sparkey trade badge?

[ZH875]

Pilot is not a trade it's a profession - officers are commissioned into a branch, not a trade. Do they train for 3 years to get a sparkey trade badge?Yes, the Cosford apprentices DID do 3 years training for their Sparky badges.:)

If officers are commissioned into a branch, not a trade, then surely the Admin officers (those of the Admin Profession) should push to be allowed to wear Biro badges on their CS95's.

Maybe Gold Biros for those that pass the Accountancy course, Silver for those that produce SRO's and Bronze for the others.

And that would then enable the HR Admin staff to push to have a Pencil for their trade badge. 2B Pencils for those that pass the Accountancy course, HB for those that assist in the production of SRO's and crayons for the others.:ok:


Please also remember that NOT all pilots are commisioned, Teeny Weenies have NCO Pilots, so they are commisioned into nothing.:ugh:

[Time Flies]

Tell me ZH...have you ever visited the planet Earth?

[ZH875]

Tell me ZH...have you ever visited the planet Earth?
Yes, and each time I do, I always find AIRCREW whingeing about not being allowed to wear their flying suits for GROUND based DESK jobs, never mind not being allowed their wings (various) on their clothing etc.

I wonder how many aircrew wear their brevets on their pyjamas (Not including Harrier pilots or the Red Arrows, as this will be taken for granted:) )

They're only badges, get a life.

I am off back to Magrathea.

[BEagle]

Yet the funny thing is, when the tacky prep school pullover came in as a part of RAF uniform in the early '70s, the suggestion that one should wear one's flying badge on it was originally just a wind up from a bloke on 617....

Which some airship obviously took seriously.

The damn woolly pully has been worn with and without flying badge, with a stable belt on the outside, it's had crew neck, v-neck, back to crew neck; it's been worn with and with out a tie; shirt collar in and collar out.....

And it has always looked like the piece of $hit it really is.

The pre-'thunderbird' V-force/QRA(I) aircrew barathea battledress was always the best No. 2 uniform - and was NEVER worn with a $odding beret!

[Time Flies]

I agree wholeheartedly about not wearing flying suits whilst on a ground tour.

Just seems to me you are rather bitter that you don't have a "badge" to sew onto your HHG to the G pyjamas. :(

Never mind eh.

[threeputt]

NO, but it is still a trade badge, just like the 1 or ½ winged aircrew trade badge.

Let me enlighten you, young man, being aircrew is not a trade it is a profession.

"Talking down to juniors" switch off.

3P

[Confucius]

...also, what rank do you have to be before it's okay to wear an SD cap with CS95? With all due respect Sir you look daft.

SD Hat and combats = gay!

Well, a beret makes its wearer look like a paedophile, no matter what one choses to wear below the neck.

I'll stick to my SD hat, especially if it pi$$es people off. It's taken years to get it properly scruffy, I think it helped me get PAS

[Maple 01]

Time old boy you need to update your banter, 'worked harder at school?' I used to get that from my boss until he discovered I had a 2:1 in a real subject as against his 3 in applied underwater basket-weaving!

So cheap jibes aside no problems with aircrew wearing wings as far as I see, only disappointed that us (ex) pondlife weren’t given subdued eagle flashes to separate us from the common army rabble, rather than the longest oblong badge ever to be sewn onto CS95. Easier identification saves on CSMs having heart attacks when confronted with any members of HM’s Flying Club.

‘When did you last have a haircut/shave?
Er, dunno, no water on the mountain for a month

‘When did you last clean your boots?’
Full of deso

‘Where’s your beret?’
Gave it to my boss, he’s lost his

‘Are your hands cold?’
Yes, it’s minus 2 and stores have no cw gloves

‘You’re RAF aren’t you?’
Yes
‘Oh, sorry, go on, f@@@ off’

RAF Mount Pleasant 1986

[ZH875]

Description of aircrew 'profession':

ALM Door Up, door down. cooker on, cooker off.
Pilot Gear Up, Gear down, Flaps up, flaps down
Flt Eng - Forget them as they are obsolescent.
Navigator - follow the pilot in front - (very difficult?)


I really am glad that I didnt do better at school.:)

You can train a monkey to ride a bike, but can he fix it?

[Real_McCoy]

Please also remember that NOT all pilots are commisioned, Teeny Weenies have NCO Pilots, so they are commisioned into nothing.:ugh:

Flying is the job of a blu-tack cpl! Aircrew can't be that elite, in that case, can they?

[timex]

Well, a beret makes its wearer look like a paedophile, no matter what one choses to wear below the neck.

Oh really.......................must tell that to the RM, Paras and all and sundry

[toddbabe]

If you read orders it states that flying clothing should only be worn when you are expected to "Fly" if you are on ground duties that day or are defo not flying then you should be in blues!
Funny how few Aircrew you see in blues when they definately haven't been or are going to be flying that day.
And as for the beret vs chip/(****) hat lets not even go there, it's uniform it's not meant to be trendy and if you hadn't noticed the chwat hat looks like shyte!!!!

[Real_McCoy]

If you read orders it states that flying clothing should only be worn when you are expected to "Fly" if you are on ground duties that day or are defo not flying then you should be in blues!
Funny how few Aircrew you see in blues when they definately haven't been or are going to be flying that day.
And as for the beret vs chip/(****) hat lets not even go there, it's uniform it's not meant to be trendy and if you hadn't noticed the chwat hat looks like shyte!!!!

5 Sqn fellas wear them all day every day. And they are on a sqn with no aircraft!!

[G-UNIT]

cost to train pilot? - cost to train sparky?

How long to train each to do the others job?

Which has the tougher selection process?

Wings should be worn whenever circumstances permit. IMHO They've earnt them

[Time Flies]

Description of aircrew 'profession':

ALM Door Up, door down. cooker on, cooker off.
Pilot Gear Up, Gear down, Flaps up, flaps down
Flt Eng - Forget them as they are obsolescent.
Navigator - follow the pilot in front - (very difficult?)

Just found the blunties version:

ATC - Talk, eat, talk, drink, talk, eat, talk...
Groundcrew - Steps out, CAT 4 A/C, steps away
Admin - INTENTIONALLY BLANK

[toddbabe]

It's all about image for aircrew, they love parading about in flying suits thinking they are something special.
What is the big deal with the brevets since they changed to generic Wsop? a load of the engineers went harpic and wanted to only wear the old "E" brevet same with the Alms! Nobody is going to forget what job you do on the plane cos you have RAF below your wing instead of Alm or E.
Image!!!!

[Time Flies]

It's all about image for aircrew, they love parading about in flying suits thinking they are something special.

What branch might you be then toddbabe? Let me guess...admin?

[Climebear]

Can we get this back into some perspective. People of all 3 services (including RAF aircrew and groundcrew) are being engaged in combat on a daily basis. Some of them are coming back in body backs or without all the body pieces they deployed with.

It does seem incongruous that para wings can be worn but flying badges can't; but, frankly, I don't care about the badges...

[toddbabe]

Time flies you might be very surprised! I am just not bothered about my image like the rest of you, it's just a job.

[Faithless]

NO, but it is still a trade badge, just like the 1 or ½ winged aircrew trade badge.

Let me enlighten you, young man, being aircrew is not a trade it is a profession.

"Talking down to juniors" switch off.

3P


No being aircrew is a gift,a passion and a drug....Freedom!:ok:

[Lockstock]

Generally the only people who get worked up about the wearing of wings are those who haven't got them. :E

[Faithless]

Aircrew badge (Full or half wing), Para wings, Tech badge, Skill at arms, Commando dagger,Air tech, Air dispatcher, Whatever it is,it's your own hard work and your own choice of trade at the end of the day .....so live with it and stop whinning.........We all wave and fight for the same flag at the end of the day!:hmm:

[The Burning Bush]

It does seem incongruous that para wings can be worn but flying badges can't;

Maybe it's a working dress thing; para wings = probably wearing CS95, pilots wings = probably wearing flying suit.

[Time Flies]

Time flies you might be very surprised! I am just not bothered about my image like the rest of you, it's just a job.

Surprise me then. :rolleyes:

[toddbabe]

Timeflies you have already stated that you think I am an adminer, is this is because I don't conform to your god like worship of the growbag or is it based on your extensive knowledge of other trades within the airforce besides the flying ones?
Me thinks you are speaking from limited experience and have only ever experienced one side of the fence.
Image is everything!!!!

[BellEndBob]

The last time I experienced banter like this was when I was 9. I was in the Cubs and had just got my cooking badge for burning some bangers over a camp fire. I seem to remember I was allowed to wear it on my left upper arm.

However, then I grew up, got a profession and concentrated on more important things.

To all those reading this thread and not in the RAF, please do not judge us all on the basis of this.

[ZOFO]

Bellendbob,

Well said Sir, its like a "my dads bigger than your dad" scenario, I have had the honour to be entitled to wear a "Badge" for 21 years now, and the only place it appears is on my NO1's, and to be quite honest I don't really care, I Know what I am and I know the hard work that I put in for this "badge", So come on leave the playground behind, and lets all get the job done and get home safely, from wherever we may find ourselves now or in the near future, (with or without badges) :ok:

Zofo

[Climebear]

Maybe it's a working dress thing; para wings = probably wearing CS95, pilots wings = probably wearing flying suit.

Doesn't wash either -

RAF para qaulified = badges on No1, No2 (jumper), No3, No5 and numerous tropical variants

RAF flying badge No1, No2 (jumper), No5, No14 and numerous tropical variants



But in the greater scheme of things IT ISN'T IMPORTANT

[Green Flash]

But in the greater scheme of things IT ISN'T IMPORTANT[/QUOTE]

He's right, you know.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh no he isn't:p

[Green Flash]

Yes, sorry, ABIW, I might have miss-read the above. I'll change it; IT ISN'T IMPORTANT - TO ME .....

[Mmmmnice]

Of course one can't see all my badges underneath the LEATHER JACKET I wear - baton anyone.....................?

[Mmmmnice]

..with my beret of course!

[Melchett01]

Mmmmnice

Of course one can't see all my badges underneath the LEATHER JACKET I wear - baton anyone.....................?

..with my beret of course!

Congratulations ....... you've gone from cool to the Village People in one post :E

[threepointonefour]

The solution to all this is easy.

All aircrew get TWO wings - we change (a la USAF) the centre symbol, suggestions as follows;

G - FJ Pilot (God wanabee)
M - FJ Navigator (knows he's God, but accepts that the Golden arches is calling)
Any truckie aviator - 2 wings with a pic of a pie/balti dish (LMs get a 'trolley')
Helo - pic of a jester (u have to be a fool to fly them)
AAR - petrol pump
Para - crutch (forward thinking)
E3 - obviously a mushroom pie
Nimrod - W or D for wet/dry (so the rest of us stand a fighting chance at understanding what you're on about)

Admin nerds can wear just a big "B" on their pullover.
Suppliers wear a big "S" .... (for stacker)
Engineers wear a big spanner
Air Traffic Controllers wear "FC-wanabee" tag
Fighter Controllers wear "Acrw wanabee" tag
Police Offrs don't need a badge as we can all see those ******s coming
Regt Offrs also don't need one - it wouldn't be visible as they hunch and drag their knuckles on the floor!


In the spirit of EO, did I manage to offend everyone?!


... and Stn Cdrs should wear a flag on their head when they're not in their cars.

[Klingon]

WHO BL**DY CARES?
It doesn't deserve six pages of the most whinging and whining contradictory rubbish I've ever had to wade through in all the time I have subscibed to PPrune.:yuk:

[eagle 86]

You will find that if you try hard you need not become involved!!
GAGS
E86

[diginagain]

Clearly, Klingon, this subject is dear to the hearts of quite a few, who don't wish to make a fashion faux pas when in uniform. In addition, it greatly amuses those from the other Services who don't seem to worry quite so much about where you sew your merit badges.

That seems to make it seven pages of drivel.

[Pontius Navigator]

Threepointonefour said All aircrew get TWO wings - we change (a la USAF) the centre symbol, suggestions as follows;

There was a lumpy jumpered Eng O in Goose used to wear wings.
Her's was a single brevet with a foaming beer mug.
This was around the time of the big police investigation.

[Pontius Navigator]

We have been criticising the CAS for not conforming to the dress regs, when can you start a fashion trend, say blue woolly pully over desert DPM and topped with leather flying jacket?

[threepointonefour]

... contradictory rubbish I've ever had to wade through in all the time I have subscibed to PPrune.:yuk:

"had" to?

One pictures you sat in Cuba with a US interrogator holding a pistol to your head ... (not a Walther though = no threat there).


"No, please. Not more prune!!?"



ps. How does one "subscibe" to PPRuNe?

[Wader2]

threepointonefour, it looks like you can subscribe to pprune.

Look at the heavy yellow menu bar above and click on USER CP.

At the bottom of this message box is another box, Additional Options.

One option is Thread Subscription together with Notofication Type that is defaulted to Do Not Subscribe. Other options are instant, daily or weekly subscription.

Interesting what a throwaway comment can reveal.

[Time Flies]

threepointonefour, it looks like you can subscribe to pprune...Interesting what a throwaway comment can reveal.

Wader

Please read through 3.14's post thoroughly and you'll see he's taking the pi$$ out of klingon when he wrote...

in all the time I have subscibed to PPrune.

Switch on for heavens sake. :rolleyes:

[Wader2]

Time Flies,

It had been a long day but I still don't see the irony.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Time Flies,
It had been a long day but I still don't see the irony.
Irony? "It's like goldy and bronzy only made of iron" :E


I know. I'll get my cloak.

[Faithless]

:zzz: ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



THE END

[Fitbin]

when can you start a fashion trend, say blue woolly pully over desert DPM and topped with leather flying jacket?

Pure genius Pontius.
I see a proper trend-setter. Somebody just has to get the rule books re-written.:D

[toddbabe]

Time flies, Oh Dear it's a sad day when you have to trawl through my old posts looking for some sort of mistakes onto which you can latch in a desperate bid to somehow make yourself look superior when you are losing the argument!
You are no warmer at all I am afraid, but like I said before you may be surprised! what badges would you like me to wear? You have of course only ever worn one badge proudly on your snug fitting, oh so sexy flying suit, haven't you?
I bet you wear yours into supermarkets and strut around the place hoping that someone notices how important and special you are, don't you?
I know this through lots of experience, and yet it still makes me laugh and cringe, Aircrew to a lot of people is all about image, yes they love their jobs and they are professional (most of them) but they like nothing more than being recognised and seen as different (special in their eyes) by others whilst in their Flying suits, with their crap hats and if they have the balls a black leather jacket.
That is of course forgetting to mention the obligatory Gun dog (black Lab preferably) and latest Japanese sports convertable.
You would hate to find out that I was aircrew wouldn't you? keep guessing.

[Maple 01]

toddbabe may well have a point, I was offered a jolly in a Seaking W a while back and I know I could feel myself getting sexier as I put on the growbag, gloves and bonedome. It was only by chance and good fortune that there were no members of the WRAF around to swoon at my tempory God-like status, grace, wit and charm.;)

[Green Flash]

Maple

You too! No matter how or what I wear in the CS95 line, I still look like a bag of poo tied in the middle. Slip into that flying suit however, and viola(!) - Adonis! How is this?

[Exrigger]

I thought I would add the perspective from a ground crew person:
When rotortuning Chinooks we originally wore our denims and used GC headsets. Good old Health & Safety came along :) and made us wear flying kit. I was lucky enough to get the full nine yards including knife and flying jacket, I have to admit even without badges it was better than our denims, lots of cubby holes and pockets to lose pens and things in, two knee pads to scribble on and a proper helmet to strut around the flight line with. Great on detachments being initially treated as aircrew, soon got dropped a peg or two when they realised. The best bit was when I got posted to St Athan, an order was put out that unless you were authorised nobody could wear the flying jacket, which meant a lot of officers (not ex or current aircrew) had to stop wearing theirs, me I was still allowed to wear mine, that is untill a certain person got upset and had all my kit removed from me, it was fun while it lasted. As far as badges go I think it is up to each individual to decide what is acceptable to them, after all we are supposed to be grown ups with minds and thoughts of our own, not drones.

[Klingon]

So much for a "Uniformed! service!:cool:

As for "irony" if its clever its funny!

[Diablo Rouge]

Rules for wings on CS95 were changed in March of this year. The line in the Dress Regs AP was even written in bold and underlined as if to stress the point. Long story short; wings may be worn on CS95 unless operationally inappropriate. No doubt this change came after CAS was back briefed on PPrune comments :E

I believe that CASWO is 'selling' the issue of leather flying jackets to all RAF Servicemen/woman (to wear with blues) in a morale boosting exercise. Sounds like one of the budgets is a bit overfull.

[Spit the Dog]

We will be getting medal ribbons to wear on our blue shirts next !!!

[The Burning Bush]

Well at least it will save pilots going down with heat exhaustion. Height of summer, jumpers etc...:E

[Pontius Navigator]

and will help our allies distinguish between professional administrator and the professional aircrew.:}

[Dan Winterroll]

What's wrong with people wearing their medal ribbons on a daily basis? Or is it some seniors don't want to be shown up by the SAC who is on his second row. When I joined people wore medal ribbons on thunderbird jackets, you soon got to know those who had done something special v the stay at home career enhancer!

[NP20]

I believe that CASWO is 'selling' the issue of leather flying jackets to all RAF Servicemen/woman (to wear with blues) in a morale boosting exercise. Sounds like one of the budgets is a bit overfull.

Speaking as a blunty, the idea of non-aircrew wearing a leather flying jacket would be even sadder than an adminer wearing a leatherman on his belt. It would do nothing to improve my morale, but may make spotting sad gits a lot easier.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I'd rather wear my leather jacket over my blues on a rainy December night as orderly officer than the horrid raincoat thing they issue, that's for sure. It's already mentioned in dress regulations, so why have it only permitted over a flying suit?

It's just like a stable belt really. A private-purchase item that's a lot better than the issued one.

[Mach the Knife]

It has changed, SNCO and above can wear the approved pattern leather jacket with blues. However it is not issue and you will have to buy it yourself.